Spank Me Please Mommy and Daddy!

[ela]

Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

Thank you chosen!!

The rod (study how Shepard's dealt with their flock) used the crook side to reach out and pull the straying sheep back in, and the straight side was used to keep wolves away....to defend the sheep.

Ok, lets say I spank my child. And it deters them from doing it again. Most parents say, great! However, the work is not finished...so it is not great. Spanking is a short-cut to true "training for life." The child will end up only remembering the spanking as a deterant...which is self-interest, meaning; "I will not hit that person because if I do I will get spanked." , instead of, "I will not hit that person because it hurts them." Yes, there are parents that spank their children who also talk to their kids, and as part of that conversation tell them that they hurt the other person.....however, MOST children will not think of that when they are thinking about whether to misbehave....they will think about themselves....which, again, does not contribute to conscience development.

Think about it. When we sin, it is almost always against someone else....it is not against an inanimate object....it is against a living being, which is why it is a sin. This is why conscience development is so important. In fact it must be in high priority.

I obey God, because I know He is good and I have a fear(/meaning deep reverence) for Him and because I know He means His word...He is faithful and I can trust Him that He knows more then me about life........and SO this is another important reason to train children in another way other then spanking them.....that they obey you not because you will hurt their behind, but that they learn that you have integrity...that you are a good person to revere and trust.

So, it is better to train children in the way, that yes, takes extra steps....as spanking can just make it quicker, "You disobey! You get spanked!" But then this is all that you will teach most children.

Training children in the way that will develop an intrinsic deterant.....a developed conscience and the desire to obey because they trust you....because they know that you mean your words everytime...will teach them to come to you when they mess up, instead of running the other way to avoid being spanked AND TRULY not want to sin because they know how it affects others AND they actually feel empathy towards others....instead of just being interested in how "I" am affected.

[OldDad]

I don't know where people who oppose spanking get the idea that parents who do spank just snatch up their kids at the first sign of offense and whale away on them - and then NEVER attempt to teach or shape them in any other way.

It's simplistic and condescending - but of course if you don't make those assumptions, you don't really get a chance to pompously pontificate and sound so, so smart, now do ya?

[OldDad]

I have raised - and spanked 6 kids - all boys BTW - and they're all doing just fine, thanks.

Spanking was NEVER a first resource, and never THE only discipline for all cases.  But our boys knew that there were some spankable offenses, and if they made the choice to break those rules, they were assured that discipline would be swift, sure, and then it would be over.

Here's a helpful hint: how about we trust parents to raise their kids and discipline the way the Lord is leading them - instead of belittling them and looking down on them for not choosing what you feel is correct?

[FollowHisGrace]

So, we should stray from a Biblical teaching just because we don't believe it is proper?  I don't intend offense, but just want to make sure I'm understanding.  Being that God is the Supreme Creator of the family, I feel pretty secure in following His instruction.  And as far as I was aware, Proverbs was speaking of a child & not a sheep or lamb.

And we're not talking about a beating, here (parents who beat their children should be beaten).  At least I'm speaking of a smack on the bottom, enough to cause a sting & make the child stop & think about what they've done.  The spanking is not the punishment.  I think of the spanking as a means to stop the child in their tracks & get them to realize that their full attention is needed on the subject.  Then, we DISCUSS (or TEACH) the offense & how it should have been handled by the child & the Biblical implications.  There is never a spanking without explanation & discussion in our household.  We don't spank & send them on their way without knowing what went wrong.

There are only 3 offenses in our household that merit a spanking.  First is lying, & even then the child has a chance to correct themselves if they are caught in the process of lying.  Second, is the possibility of causing bodily harm to themselves or another.  The final one is out & out disobedience.  Being told not to do something & then turning right around & doing it anyway.  We rarely need to spank our daughters for these offenses.  If you ask them why they don't lie or disobey, they will tell you the Biblical reasonw why.  Not because they will get a spanking.

Where along the line did a true spanking ever get confused with beating a child?  There is a huge difference but people seem to want to group everyone together & condemn them all.  Yes, there are ways to get a child to respect you without having to spank, but have you ever tried to reason with a 3 year old when they haven't been humbled?

[OldDad]

Amen - manna for you.

[chosenone]

if children can be raised to be good kids and adults who are following God,and who are kind, friendly and polite, and who have honesty and integrity,without hitting them, then what is the point? .The rod is for discipline and not beating.It is for keeping them on the straight path and not for beating fear into them.

I cant see the point of hitting a kid while saying "Johnny I am hitting you because you hit your brother,and it is wrong to hit people"Oh dear  WOOPS, that's what I am doing.doh.

As a mum who loves and adores her kids and has a very strong maternal instinct, beating a child is something that makes my blood run cold. The thought if taking a belt or cane to them makes me cringe in my spirit. God does expect correction and for us to make rules, but I really cant see Jesus taking a stick to those kids who came to him can you?  My kids respect me for the mum I am, and not for making them afraid of me or afraid of the pain that I may cause them.
They are aged 32, 30 and 25 now so I have a good idea of how they have turned out, and I am pretty darned proud of them.

[FollowHisGrace]

OK, once more. . . there is a difference between spanking & beating.  Are you implying that when I smack my child's rear end no harder than I would smack the back of a dear friend in greeting that I'm beating my child?  Or, to get more to the point, are you saying that I am wrong in discipling my child in what I interpret as the Biblical way of disciplining them (no one has yet disproved the verse in Proverbs to me).

I am not condeming you for not spanking.  I find it wonderful that you did find ways to discipline that worked for your children.  However, my children are quite possibly not wired the same as your children were.  We have a 6 yr. old daughter who will consistently push us to the limits to see where those limits are.  She is a very bright, very loving child but her sin nature is to push & challenge the limits we've set.  To deal with that sin nature, I find it is best to turn to what the Bible teaches on the matter; not what man teaches on the matter.  While we may not feel that something is right or can't picture Jesus doing that, does that mean that the Bible is then wrong on the teaching?  If I am wrong in spanking my child in a Biblical manner, then give me the Bible verses & I will study & learn.  Until then, don't condemn me for disciplining my children as God instructs.

I have no doubt that you are a wonderful mother & that your children turned out quite wonderfully.  That is a testimony to God that you were able to discipline without spanking.  But again, God creates us all differently & puts us all in different situations.  What may have worked for one may not work for another.

[The Great Baptizmo]

Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

Use scripture.  I don't want your opinion.  I want your opinion backed up with scripture.

[ela]

if children can be raised to be good kids and adults who are following God,and who are kind, friendly and polite, and who have honesty and integrity,without hitting them, then what is the point? .The rod is for discipline and not beating.It is for keeping them on the straight path and not for beating fear into them.

I cant see the point of hitting a kid while saying "Johnny I am hitting you because you hit your brother,and it is wrong to hit people"Oh dear  WOOPS, that's what I am doing.doh.

As a mum who loves and adores her kids and has a very strong maternal instinct, beating a child is something that makes my blood run cold. The thought if taking a belt or cane to them makes me cringe in my spirit. God does expect correction and for us to make rules, but I really cant see Jesus taking a stick to those kids who came to him can you?  My kids respect me for the mum I am, and not for making them afraid of me or afraid of the pain that I may cause them.
They are aged 32, 30 and 25 now so I have a good idea of how they have turned out, and I am pretty darned proud of them.

Thanks again chosen,

I appreciate your stance very much....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can understand your stance too FollowHisGrace...yes, I can. I can also agree that many parents parent quite well while still believing in it...

I believe that we see God....His character....His various traits....His love and so forth...primarily by the way we were parented, since that was the 1st authority we had over us. Then as we grow we hear that God is our Heavenly Father and Jesus is His Son and we are God's children, and so forth...so, I think it is pretty strong in us to see God the way we were treated by our fathers or lack of, as a child. Anyway, after I began teaching in early childhood education and then had my own children...it began occuring to me as I was still dealing with the abuse that I sustained as a child, HOW important it was to raise children in a way, so that when they grow up that their view of God is already healthy, true and right....and that endeavoring to trust Him and establish a relationship with Him would not be nearly as hard as it was for me.

You wanted scripture to back up what chosen was saying? As in smoking....when a person tells someone that God does not want us to smoke....that someone will say, "Well, then, show me the scriptures for that." But is there really any specific scriptures about smoking? There is scripture about the body being our temple and so forth...and we can most assuredly find more....however, we know it is not good because we know it is missing the mark of what God wants for us...it is unhealthy....and it controls us instead of us being able to control it most of the time.

Anyway, I think you get my drift....

IMO, as I said it is important to raise kids in a way that points to the kind of God we serve....so I have based a lot of how I raise kids on these principles >> God wants us to obey Him, not for fear of punishment....but because we love Him. Yes? Now, I think I can find some scripture to find for this, if you want me too. God also wants us, more then anything, to learn to love Him and our neighbors. Yes? (The New Commandment...which fulfills ALL of God's requirements) Then as we begin to love (develop good conscience/feel compassion) thru the power and leading of the Spirit of God, that helps us to set aside self-interest (sinful/hurtful behavior)...as in Gal. 5:16, "So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit, then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves."

Training does not have to involve pain...as in scripture, 'If we judge ourselves, then we will not have to be judged by God" (1 Cor. 11:31) As a Shepard with his sheep....he will only break the leg of a lamb that continues to stray...


Anyway, this is why I believe it is important to raise kids the way I have described in my other posts on this thread and maybe at least some of the reasons why chosen doesn't spank either...  

[FollowHisGrace]

I strongly agree that in cases where there has been abuse, discipline needs to be addressed in a different manner.  I also believe that a spanking done in a non-Christian manner serves little purpose.  When I was growing up, that is how spanking were.  The sting & humiliation were the deterant rather than the Biblical teaching that should have followed.  I find it a great testimony to Christian parents & their children who are able to discipline without spanking.

However, I do believe spanking is Biblical for those who chose to use it as a means for discipline.  And it needs to be done within those Biblical guidelines & all of the love of Christ communicated along with that.  While God does love us so much that He gave His only Son for us, He also says that he is a jealous God & Jesus also gave parables that spoke of punishment & discipline for not obeying.  I took offense at being told that when I spank my children, I am beating them.  Even though the spankings I received as a child were outside of what would be considered Biblical guidelines, those were even a far cry from a beating. 

Yes, there are parents who take it too far.  Even some Christian parents that will tear into their children & hide behind the fact that a spanking is Biblical.  They will have their time at the judgement throne to answer to God.  That is part of the reason spanking has become such a controversial issue in child rearing.  But when another Christian points the finger of condemnation at those of us who use spanking as a last resort & use it under Biblical instruction, it becomes extremely offensive.  It carries the assumption that we spank for the sake of spanking & don't give our children any further instruction.  Yesterday, I in no way told anyone that they were wrong for NOT spanking their children.  In fact, I said (as I did again today) that it was a testimony.  All I did was defend the Biblical teaching of spanking.  Yet, the message I received was that I was less of a parent because I spanked.

ela, I (as always) appreciate your grace in the matter.  There were just some posts, yesterday, that continued to push me into the corner & prove me wrong, rather than acknowledge that maybe I am disciplining in a Christian manner.

Blessings!

[chosenone]

ela good post, and I agree totally.I never wanted my kids to do the right thing out of fear of physical pain, but because it was right. I have a brilliant relationship with all three of my adult children, they are lovely young people who I am so proud of. I have lost count of the number of people who have praised them over the years, saying what a credit they are to me etc. So I guess that I must have done something right, especially as I was a single mum for a number of years.

I can only remember one occasion when I was hit as a child, and I hope I turned out OK . My husband was emotionally damaged by his mother hitting him with a belt, and still remembers the fear he then felt, even now, at 54 years old. He was a very sensitive little boy, just like my son was, and it wasnt what he needed at all. His mum believed that it was what she 'should' do as a Christian. They have practically no relationship at all, and havent had since he came to the UK 24 years ago, and not much before that either.

[OldDad]

Again, the basic error of the "no spanking" folks posting here recently is the wrong assumption that parents who spank do no other training or discipline - that they just grab the kid, whomp them, and never do any other kind of instruction.

That's a faulty assumption. In fact it's mean-spirited and condescending, and undermines the point they are trying to make.

It is a matter of parental preference, plain and simple. Not wrong, just different.

[Jellybean]

While we may not feel that something is right or can't picture Jesus doing that, does that mean that the Bible is then wrong on the teaching?  If I am wrong in spanking my child in a Biblical manner, then give me the Bible verses & I will study & learn. 

If you want to explore the Bible verses that relate to discipline and are often used to support spanking, I would highly suggest this website: http://aolff.org/   You might not agree with it, but I think it is a very thorough and interesting discussion on Biblical discipline and the associated Bible verses.  Go to the tab titled, "Spare the Rod..."

[Mere Nick]

My dad would always talk to us first.  A good whuppin' with a belt would come later.  He said to always politely knock on the front door, that is, by speaking.  If that doesn't work, then you have to bust open the back door.  It teaches the whupee that one should open the front door when someone knocks.  He never used his hand, either.  He would use a belt.  A belt is far less likely to injure and he didn't want me to fear him, but to fear the belt.

Anyone who disagrees with him is a racist, sexist, daddyophobe.

[FollowHisGrace]

I heard Dobson (I believe it was Dobson) speak on that once.  About using a paddle or such, to remove the association from the parent to the item used for discipline.

Jellybean, I visited that site & while I respect the view-points & teachings on that site & agree with many (as I said, spanking is a last resort), one of the first things I read, again brought up the niche that parents who spank have been pigeon-holed into.  They basically say that a relationship with God is about attaching & not detaching & connecting, not disconnecting.  It seems as if they are saying that all parents who spank their children are disconnected from their children.  How false that is!  I have a 4 yr. old, whom I've spanked, that if she were any more emotionally connected to me, well. . . those who've followed Star Trek will get this. . . we'd be like the Borg.  They also went on to say the following:

Too often parents are taught that their discipline choices can even guarantee the salvation of their children. This is not only not our job, it's God's job alone. Our job as parents is to prepare the hearts of our children to be good ground for the seed of the Gospel which is our privilege to plant, not to produce perfectly behaved Stepford children.

http://aolff.org/

I don't believe that the way I discipline my children will bring them salvation.  For me, disciplining is completely separate from my explanations of how Christ died for our sins & how He is the only way to heaven.  I pray every night that God draw my daughters close to Him & that He put that desire in their hearts to have a relationship with Him through Christ.  To me, it almost seems ludicrous that the discipline I give them with save them.  Yes, it will teach them how God expects us to behave, but it won't save them.  As I said, the site brought up valid points, but they lost some of their credibility by stuffing all of us who spank into the same category of blind Christians who don't have a relationship with their children.

[Jellybean]

  It seems as if they are saying that all parents who spank their children are disconnected from their children.  How false that is!

I can't speak for the author of the website, but I don't think that all parents who spank are disconnected from their children, and I don't think that was the author's point.  However, I think the act of spanking is by nature "disconnecting."  Striking/spanking/hitting someone, whether adult or child, with the intent to cause pain, is not an activity that promotes feelings of love, safety, and security (necessary for strong attachments.)  That's just human nature.  When people intentionally hurt us, it creates a distance, and often a desire to get away from that person.  It does not make us want to come closer to that person...I think that's what the author of the website was saying.  The act of inflicting physical pain causes detachment/disconnection, for sure in the short-term and often in the long-term as well.

I don't believe that the way I discipline my children will bring them salvation.  For me, disciplining is completely separate from my explanations of how Christ died for our sins & how He is the only way to heaven. 

I agree.  I think the author of the site was referring to followers of Michael and Debi Pearl.  If you don't know who they are, thank God for that!  They are extreme and suggest that the way we discipline our children *does* impact their salvation.  Their advice is horribly abusive (switching infants as young as 4 months old, setting kids up to fail and then beating them severely for it....several kids have died after their parents followed their advice...)  I happen to know that Crystal (the author of the website I linked) writes against the Pearls and helps minister to parents who have read their material and followed their advice.  So I think that's what she was referring to with those comments about discipline and salvation.

[chosenone]

My dad would always talk to us first.  A good whuppin' with a belt would come later.  He said to always politely knock on the front door, that is, by speaking.  If that doesn't work, then you have to bust open the back door.  It teaches the whupee that one should open the front door when someone knocks.  He never used his hand, either.  He would use a belt.  A belt is far less likely to injure and he didn't want me to fear him, but to fear the belt.

Anyone who disagrees with him is a racist, sexist, daddyophobe.

Do you really think that a belt is far less likely to injure than a hand?I cant agree there, especially if the buckle end is used, which is often is the case. I would far rather be smacked with a hand, that beaten with a belt (if I had the choice  that is!)

[FollowHisGrace]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  I honestly understand all of the points being made against spanking, but I honestly believe that spanking is Biblical.  While I understand some of the points being made against spanking, I don't agree with all of them.  I know too many Christians who spank or were spanked by Christian parents when they were children, & it in no way affected their relationship with their parents or their relationship with God.  While God & Christ are good & the model of love, they are also just & seek righteousness.  I could go off on a whole tangent there, but won't.  I'm just going to agree to disagree.

I know the people on this topic just want to "help" me be a better parent (at least I hope that's the spirit & not just to prove another wrong).  I appreciate the spirit of that, however, on a topic such as this. . . if I'm wrong then God needs to convict me & deal with my heart.  And if I'm wrong & never feel conviction, then that is mine to deal with at the foot of the judgement seat.

I enjoyed the debate, pray that I didn't come across as telling anyone that their belief is wrong (think I was pretty much just defending my belief about spanking) & am just going to have to agree that we disagree!

Blessings!

[saltysclothingcompany]

Wow! This makes a lot of sense. I am the CEO of our company, Salty's Clothing Company. I here to attest I had my share of spankings when I was a child. My wife and I have struggled with spanking our 4 year old. We do but we always correct her first, warn her of a spanking and if the behavior is redundant we spank her. We always make sure she understands why we had to spank her. It is a struggle though. Does anyone else struggle with it?