Why Do You Stay?

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The question, in my mind, is this:  Where do we draw the proverbial line?  Which is more important, holding onto the fellowship we have with our more traditional brothers or reaching out to brothers of a different persuasion?  When does the desire for peace keep us from drawing closer to God.[/quote]

Marc,

While the pressing issues here are not the same as yours with the instrumental music, (In a land of poverty, the idea of having an organ or not is quite silly), we still have quite divisive issues o
n the table here

. Your question tore at my heart, Marc. My eyes are moist as I type this in. It hurts to even think that there might well be a proverbial line. But there might well be.  
Marc for as frustrating as the legalists can be, for as much as I detest their methodology, for all that I realize how little fellowship we truly have right now, the idea of division, YET ANOTHER DIVISION hurts and hurts deeply. Marc my entire heritage is division, division artificially imposed on a race of people who could not be conquered by more conventional means. Division hurts and hurts deeply.

But Marc, I am sure you read the quote I posted from the legalist in Belfast. Marc am I causing this division? Am I rejecting his very Christianity because we hold differing views? Have I disfellowshipped anyone who holds differing views? Am I treating those who differ as unsaved?

Or Marc am I trying in my imperfect way to follow the Lord, loving my brother and my enemy as well to the best of my meager ability?

Shall we maintain Peace at all costs even when it involves compromising our belief in the Lord?
My answer is found in Psalm 55:16.  As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me.

[pdwblw]

Booty, no problem.  Thanks for the information.  I have only been learning about the Churches Of Christ for a while.  I read an article by Al Maxey on Bible translations and that lead me to here.  Love this sight ( I even come here before I go to the news).  Thanks for the insight into these issues.  I have learned much about understanding opposing points of view, etc.
To the question at hand.  How widespread is this kind of thing-the disclpline for going to other churches, that is?  The Lord has freed me up from some of my legalisms regarding church attendance (the old "walk with the Lord judged by church attendance" syndrome).  Thanks to you all for your help and insight

[patriciaredstone]

Thanks Steve and Booty for your reflections.

[SuziQ]

Booty,
Please forgive me for thinking sometimes I am the oppressed one because of the difficulties of the church in my area.  I guess I am completely insensitive to the reality of worship challenges elsewhere.  

I should explain, however, that I do not have the blessing of the congregation to visit anywhere.  I'm sure it is quite frowned upon, but it is just not addressed.  However, some of my greatest growth experiences have occurred when I was visiting with a group other than my home congregation.  
I have learned from experience that there are some needs that will not be met in the congregation where I am, but to try to push too hard for change would be destructive to the group as a whole.  

Again, I am sorry for sounding a bit uppity earlier.  
Suzi

[Lacy]

To play or not to play...

I learned from an American missionary, who was in Japan after the war and became a minister of a CoC with music when he returned, that the Japanese were confused by having two kinds of Churches of Christ come to them from America. The non-music group insisted that the music group give up their music so that they could present a united front. To the credit of the latter, they agreed and stopped using music. The next demand was, "You must confess that  music as a sin,  denounce it and tell your home churches that you have given it up. We have to unite on this before we can be one church on the mission field." Believing that the legalistic demand was out of line, both groups went on as before.

The anti-music CoC doesn't seem to know about Romans 14:13. One group removed their "stumbling block," even though they weren't wrong, and the other wrongly erected a law in its place which became a much greater stumbling block.

"In matters of faith, unity, in matters of opinion, liberty, and in all things love."

Lacy

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nicholas @ Aug. 12 2002,6:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marc
I completely understand your frustration.  I once thought that I could attend the classes without causing arguments but I now know that it's not possible for me  :( .  Like Janine's husband, often I would have to hold back. However in contrast to him, it really, really, really, eats at my spirit.  So, thus far I have chosen the path of least resistance by not attending.  It's hard for me.  For about the past 2 months we visited a community church not related to CofC.  Personally, I enjoyed the change finding it refreshing. My wife and kids wanted to return to CofC so we did(2 sundays now).  Yet I'm struggling and honestly I don't see a solution on the horizon.  My advise to you is to stay in prayer, remain true to who you are, and seek Jehovah God's wisdom.   You are in my prayers


Nicholas.......saved by grace[/quote]
Nicholas and Marc,

If I could suggest a relief?  Seek out like minded individuals and arrange to invest one evening a week with them in fellowship, studying the Bible privately with them and recharging yourselves for the struggles you face.

This board provides a good deal of that. I know for me it is a blessing as it allows me to fellowship in english. Try applying the same principle as you find here to a small group in real life. Trust in the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you.  

One evening a week invested in this manner will be well worth your time.

[duckman]

The original question that started this thread was why do those of us in the non-instrumental Churches of Christ stay where we are.  Though the first statement in the original question had to do with instrumental vs. non-instrumental worship, the real question was further down in the post - why stay where it appears to be so legalistic.

I've read the various postings on this thread since then, but have been more or less mulling it over in my mind before making any comment.

Why do I stay?  Here's why I am staying, at least for now.

A few short months ago, I was deep in sin, and deep in the clutches of the advesary (and yes, I mean the literal Satan, and his many forces).  I tried to work my way out of it, reason my way out of it, pray my way out of it, all to no avail.

Finally, I was able to admit that I could not defeat it, and I needed help.  I turned to my Lord, I turned to my family, and I turned to my local congregation.

You know what I found out?  I found out my Lord forgave me.  I found out my family forgave me.

And I found out that our preacher, who is definitely one that would be considered legalistic by many on this board (even I always considered him that way), I found out that he was one of the first ones (among many in our congregation) who offered me grace and encouragement, and let me know that everyone sins, and that the Lord forgives everyone, no matter what they've done, if they will give themselves to Him.

There are many things wrong in our congregation, and there are many things right.  I long for more Christ-centered preaching, and less preaching on IM, or why the Baptists are wrong.  I long for elders who have a vision of a congregation that cares less about the pattern of worship and more about the pattern of our lives.

Yet, I am thankful for our preacher who knows so much about the Word of God, and is not too proud to admit he is wrong from time to time, or that he doesn't always understand every verse we discuss in his expository studies of Bible chapters on Wednesday evenings.

And I am thankful for the elder who sat with my wife and comforted her when my sin became known to the entire congregation.

I guess those are the reasons I stay.  I know I am loved by people.  I've always known I was loved by God, but it wasn't until recently that I knew that these people, with all their faults, and many of their "legalistic" tendencies, also loved me, too.

In Him,

The Duck

[Booty]

mrbill,

You are in our prayers, the Lord may respond in Spanish! ;)

[marc]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Is there a "no-music" branch of the CoC?  [/quote]

That would certainly explain a couple of congregations I've worshipped with, although it never dawned on me that this was intentional. . . .

[nerdneh]

"K" Ditto, etc. and amen, please realize many of us consider you a brother in the Lord.

[susieface]

Barry,
 Good question, I have wondered the same thing.  I am one of those members who went to a cofc all my life and then left for an independent christian church, and may I add have never been happier.
 I left because of the grace issue and the independents here seemed to have progressed that way much sooner.  There have been many who have made the switch for the same reasons in our city.
 Why do others stay?  I don't know really, some answers I have heard are "this is all I know", "family and member ties", "to help lead or change(more grace-centered) cofc". I have also been told "I do not feel instruments are wrong, but I want to be safe".  This last comment has bugged me to the point that I wonder if more feel this way.  This attitude of it's alright for you to take the chance, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
We have legalist in our congregation also, opposing bands, opposing former baptist baptisms, opposing the drop in sunday evening worship among other things, but for the most part all arguments have ceased and eyes have been opened along with also having a traditional service provided. We are very grace centered and have one of the best gospel preachers I have ever heard who definitely does not fudge on scripture.

Anyway I am glad you asked.
Susie
p.s. We have some C of C preachers in the city who want to be on staff there and have discussed this, but our elders are afraid the cofc's here will think they are trying to steal or split the cofc.

[Barry]

Hi All,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if instrumental music is not viewed as a sin, but simply a matter of taste in the grace-centered congregations, wouldn't you think that once in awhile you would include it?

I guess what I'm getting to is that I don't think many of the progressive churches are really all that progressive if they disallow instrumental music completely. Isn't there at least one NI COC (I know this would take away the NI!) that is using musical instruments in worship part of the time? If not, what's the hold up? For a person on the outside looking in, it is hard to not view this as legalism. If it was simply a matter of taste, there wouldn't be a rule (spoken or unspoken) against it.

Barry

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Fate @ July 20 2002,9:38)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marc,

You said, "If using instrumental music in worship is ordained by God, which I think the Bible very clearly teaches, why even give a moment's thought to what some legalists are going to think about it? Who really cares?"

Where exactly does the Bible teach that instrumental music in worship is "ordained" by God? I'm just an old backwater head-in-the-sand behind-the-times separated-from-the-true-body of believers COC legalist that would like to know. :([/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Psalms 150

1.  Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2.  Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3.  Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4.  Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5.  Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6.  Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.[/quote]

[Bon Voyage]

In the congregation I am a part of we were fortunate to hear a few hymns played on a trumpet.  It was great.

[marc]

Thanks, everybody.  The bad part is that I thought I was being good and mostly holding my tongue.  I'll probably have to hide under the table in a few weeks when we get to the instrumental music section of this awful book, which begins by calling IM "will worship" and ironically referencing Colossians 2:20-23:

"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of the world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:  "Do not handle! Do not tough!"?  These are all destined to perish with use because they are based on human commands and teachings.  Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

Much of what's going on centers around the efforts to convince a lady who was raised as a Methodist and a couple of other ladies who have been "deceived" by too much association with "denominaitons" that we are doctrinally correct and everyone else is in error.  At the same time I am teaching Romans to the same group on Sunday mornings, and have been heavily emphasizing grace.  Yesterday morning we read ". . . we have been released from the law so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

I guess I am confusing them.

[Nicholas]

Janine,
I also appreciate the list. Live long and prosper



Nicholas..........saved by grace

[Lacy]

Nerdneh,

Your statement about the different kinds of churches reminds me of Leo Tolstoi's first sentence in his Anna Kerinina. He says, "All unhappy families are alike; all happy families are happy, each in its own fashion." The same goes for the churches. All happy churches are alike in that they not only follow the Word, they are also "led by the Spirit;" and they love to love and to be loved. All unhappy churches demand that the people follow their interpretation of the Word, without putting much emphesis on the Holy Spirit or the need and joy of love. When the leaders of a congregation I know about grew weary with some Charismatics among them who were always talking about the Holy Ghost, one of them said, "We aren't going to have any of this Holy Ghost business around here!" I thought this statement was very wrong; The problem wasn't Holy Ghost businesss, it was Charasmatic business, but this man couldn't tell the difference and was willing to "throw the baby out with the bath water."

Once when I was on the road, going for a "try out" sermon at a church, I ran on to a preacher cousin of mine, who stood there with his hard face hanging our and said to me, "Lacy, you know what your problem is? You're looking for a perfect church, and if you found it, it wouldn't be perfect any more." He was a legalistic preacher who was able to discern that an imperfect preacher was looking for a perfect church, but I needed understanding and help, not a sarcastic put down from another preacher. (By the way, this same preacher came to me, after I had located, to ask if I knew how much moeney a certain brother gave when he was in my church in MI. "He is giving only $18 a week now," he said, "and I know he is able to do better than that."

By the way, do you know where the term, "throw the baby out with the bath water" came from? I understand that in rural settings years ago, all the children bathed in a big tub in the same bath water--going from the oldest to the youngest. When they were all finished, mom threw out the bath water, being careful that the baby wasn't still in it.

Well, I didn't find the perfect church, but rather one in which an elder said, regarding a dicision they had made to "fire" me (which caused me to announced my resignation), that they were going to, "nip this thing in the bud," because I had preached on justification by faith from Ro, 4. And I got a dishonorable mention in a brotherhood paper because of the comments I made on Eph. 5 at a preacher's meeting, saying that instrumental music is not even under consideration in this chapter, and because I resigned and began working with the coC that has music. The writeup read as folloes: "Brother Williams has left the Lord's church, is now with the Christian church and has enembraced music."  That was in 1966 and I never went back to the coC.

Lacy