Gluttony

[Jimbob]

Jamie,

You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony.  I don't see that equation in Scripture.

Fwiw, 90% of the people I've known I'd think may be gluttons are skinny as rails.

[BrianInChrist]

Jamie,

I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread:  a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.

Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.



So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?

If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?

Jamie,

Those are not the only reasons why someone might overeat.  For example, someone might overeat because they still feel physical hunger after they have already consumed what their body requires.

There are many reasons.  However, if you take away exceptions, and focus on the marority:

Most of us Americans just eat too much.

There is no question that we eat too much.  But I can't find any Scripture that teaches that overeating, all by itself, is a sin.

Jamie,

You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony.  I don't see that equation in Scripture.

I've not seen any relevant scripture presented yet.

That's the point.  If we are going to call overeating a sin, we should have Scripture to back that claim up.

[Jimbob]

Hey now, I edited that out, because I realized I'd skipped a page before posting.  I do think you'll find that 1) Scripture actually says next to nothing and most peoples' definitions are more cultural than scriptural (hence the weight definition instead of the greedy for food definition); and 2) the traditional view through the centuries is based more on statements in the Apocrypha (like statements in Sirach, for example) which, last I heard, you guys don't accept as Scripture.

I don't say that to defend overeating, or to offend those who've posted.  It's just I always find it interesting how strong people's convictions are, and how they obviously then try to find prooftexts for it, even while decrying said practice in other threads simultaneously.  Happens every time it comes up.

[johnnyQ]

Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful,...I guess there are a lot of other things we consider sinful with no specific verse attached(slavery and polygamy).  I believe anything to excess can become an idol which we put, maybe not before God, but on the same plane.  There are similar reasons for Drunkeness and Gluttony being considered sinful.  And just think about this, they didn't even have driving under the influence as a consideration for why drunkeness was sinful.  They probably didn't know it affected one's health at all, so health reasons were probably never factored into the reason drunkeness was sinful either.

jq

[BrianInChrist]

Hey now, I edited that out, because I realized I'd skipped a page before posting.  I do think you'll find that 1) Scripture actually says next to nothing and most peoples' definitions are more cultural than scriptural (hence the weight definition instead of the greedy for food definition); and 2) the traditional view through the centuries is based more on statements in the Apocrypha (like statements in Sirach, for example) which, last I heard, you guys don't accept as Scripture.

I don't say that to defend overeating, or to offend those who've posted.  It's just I always find it interesting how strong people's convictions are, and how they obviously then try to find prooftexts for it, even while decrying said practice in other threads simultaneously.  Happens every time it comes up.

That's the way that I view the issue as well.  It's not a faith issue, it's a cultural issue.

[BrianInChrist]

Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful,...I guess there are a lot of other things we consider sinful with no specific verse attached(slavery and polygamy).  I believe anything to excess can become an idol which we put, maybe not before God, but on the same plane.  There are similar reasons for Drunkeness and Gluttony being considered sinful.  And just think about this, they didn't even have driving under the influence as a consideration for why drunkeness was sinful.  They probably didn't know it affected one's health at all, so health reasons were probably never factored into the reason drunkeness was sinful either.

jq

[Jaime]

Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful

There isn't, hm..........

http://www.gotquestions.org/gluttony-sin.html

[BrianInChrist]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

[Jaime]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

I think you are begging the answer!

[Jimbob]

The word "zalal" in the Hebrew is the word translated "gluttons" in some translations, "riotous eaters" in others.  This is its definition:

1.  to be worthless, be vile, be insignificant, be light
         1. (Qal)
               1. to be worthless, be insignificant
               2. to make light of, squander, be lavish with
   2. to shake, tremble, quake
         1. (Niphal) to shake, quake

The Hebrew for the word in 23:2 is "nephesh", translated "gluttony" in the article you quoted, "appetite" in the KJV.  Here is its definition:

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
   2. living being
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
   5. seat of the appetites
   6. seat of emotions and passions
   7. activity of mind
         1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
         1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
         1. dubious

I think the definitions of both show a deaper problem than merely eating an extra piece of pie (for which I heard a brother at a fellowship berated, and he was called a glutton and chewed out by his wife...the man fits neither of the descriptions above).

[Bon Voyage]

Why are we even discussing this?

Most of us are wrong about baptism, so we are gonna fry anyway.

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may die!

[Jimbob]

Further, in regard to 23:2, the statement is made that one should be careful not to make a pig of himself in the presence of a king, context being important and all.

[BrianInChrist]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

I think you are begging the answer!

Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating.  The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.

[admin]

Websters Dictionary defines gluttony as: "excessive eating and drinking."

[Jaime]

jmg,

I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.

Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it."  



Edited by Jaime for spelling

[Bon Voyage]

jmg,

I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked my do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.

Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it." 

You should tell them you wouldn't want to add to scripture to invent a sin that God didn't put there.

[Jaime]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

I think you are begging the answer!

Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating.  The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.

Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!

[Jaime]

jmg,

I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked my do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.

Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it." 

You should tell them you wouldn't want to add to scripture to invent a sin that God didn't put there.

Yep.

I always think of good stuff to say after the fact. 

[BrianInChrist]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

I think you are begging the answer!

Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating.  The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.

Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!

Jamie,

I don't think sex has anything to do with gluttony.  Or shopping.  I think gluttony is overeating or hoarding food, but not just overeating or hoarding food.  It is overeating or hoarding food for a sinful reason.

[Jaime]

I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?

The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.

[yogi bear]

Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.

[Jaime]

Jamie,

I think you are begging the question.

I think you are begging the answer!

Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating.  The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.

Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!

Jamie,

I don't think sex has anything to do with gluttony.  Or shopping.  I think gluttony is overeating or hoarding food, but not just overeating or hoarding food.  It is overeating or hoarding food for a sinful reason.

here is what the dictionary says:

glut·ton1      /ˈglʌtn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gluht-n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who eats and drinks excessively or voraciously. 
2. a person with a remarkably great desire or capacity for something: a glutton for work; a glutton for punishment

[Jaime]

Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.

Bill, I ditto that prayer and confession. Thank you for your heart!

[CDHealy]

A good place to begin to understand gluttony is the fifth book of St. John Cassian's Monastic Institutes, where he decribes gluttony: "And so the first conflict we must enter upon is that against gluttony, which we have explained as the pleasures of the palate . . . "

The conflict he speaks of here is the battle agains the passions.  The passions, according to historic Christian thought, are those desires and appetites that are either at war with God's will for us, or are distortations of God-given desires and appetites, and which cause us to turn our focus and attention away from God.  This battle is not just intermittent skirmishes, but a moment-by-moment battle involving the will, free choice, and the mind.  All that a Christian is to do is to be governed by his Spirit-influenced mind, and not to simply be from the direction and influence of his bodily desires.

St. John Cassian continues, quoting the desert monastic Anthony:

"And so on the manner of fasting a uniform rule cannot easily be observed, because everybody has not the same strength; nor is it like the rest of the virtues, acquired by steadfastness of mind alone. And therefore, because it does not depend only on mental firmness, since it has to do with the possibilities of the body, we have received this explanation concerning it which has been handed down to us, viz.: that there is a difference of time, manner, and quality of the refreshment in proportion to the difference of condition of the body, the age, and sex: but that there is one and the same rule of restraint to everybody as regards continence of mind, and the virtue of the spirit. For it is impossible for every one to prolong his fast for a week, or to postpone taking refreshment during a two or three days' abstinence. By many people also who are worn out with sickness and especially with old age, a fast even up to sunset cannot be endured without suffering. The sickly food of moistened beans does not agree with everybody: nor does a sparing diet of fresh vegetables suit all, nor is a scanty meal of dry bread permitted to all alike. One man does not feel satisfied with two pounds, for another a meal of one pound, or six ounces, is too much; but there is one aim and object of continence in the case of all of these, viz.: that no one may be overburdened beyond the measure of his appetite, by gluttony. For it is not only the quality, but also the quantity of food taken which dulls the keenness of the mind, and when the soul as well as the flesh is surfeited, kindles the baneful and fiery incentive to vice.

"The belly when filled with all kinds of food gives birth to seeds of wantonness, nor can the mind, when choked with the weight of food, keep the guidance and government of the thoughts. For not only is drunkennesswith wine wont to intoxicate the mind, but excess of all kinds of food makes it weak and uncertain, and robs it of all its power of pure and clear contemplation. The cause of the overthrow and wantonness of Sodom was not drunkenness through wine, but fulness of bread. Hear the Lord rebuking Jerusalem through the prophet. "For how did thy sister Sodom sin, except in that she ate her bread in fulness and abundance?" And because through fulness of bread they were inflamed with uncontrollable lust of the flesh, they were burnt up by the judgment of God with fire and brimstone from heaven. But if excess of bread alone drove them to such a headlong downfall into sin through the vice of satiety, what shall we think of those who with a vigorous body dare to partake of meat and wine with unbounded licence, taking not just what their bodily frailty demands, but what the eager desire of the mind suggests.

"Bodily weakness is no hindrance to purity of heart, if only so much food is taken as the bodily weakness requires, and not what pleasure asks for. It is easier to find men who altogether abstain from the more fattening kinds of foods than men who make a moderate use of what is allowed to our necessities; and men who deny themselves everything out of love of continence than men who taking food on the plea of weakness preserve the due measure of what is sufficient. For bodily weakness has its glory of self-restraint, where though food is permitted to the failing body, a man deprives himself of his refreshment. although he needs it, and only indulges in just so much food as the strict judgment of temperance decides to be sufficient for the necessities of life, and not what the longing appetite asks for. The more delicate foods, as they conduce to bodily health, so they need not destroy the purity of chastity, if they are taken in moderation. For whatever strength is gained by partaking of them is used up in the toil and waste of car. Wherefore as no state of life can be deprived of the virtue of abstinence, so to none is the crown of perfection denied.

"And so it is a very true and most excellent saying of the Fathers that the right method of fasting and abstinence lies in the measure of moderation and bodily chastening; and that this is the aim of perfect virtue for all alike, viz.: that though we are still forced to desire it, yet we should exercise self-restraint in the matter of the food, which we are obliged to take owing to the necessity of supporting the body. For even if one is weak in body, he can attain to a perfect virtue and one equal to that of those who are thoroughly strong and healthy, if with firmness of mind he keeps a check upon the desires and lusts which are not due to weakness of the flesh. For the Apostle says: "And take not care for the flesh in its lusts." He does not forbid care for it in every respect: but says that care is not to be taken in regard to its desires and lusts. He cuts away the luxurious fondness for the flesh: he does not exclude the control necessary for life: he does the former, lest through pampering the flesh we should be involved in dangerous entanglements of the desires; the latter lest the body should be injured by our fault and unable to fulfil its spiritual and necessary duties.

"The perfection then of abstinence is not to be gathered from calculations of time alone, nor only from the quality of the food; but beyond everything from the judgment of conscience. For each one should impose such a sparing diet on himself as the battle of his bodily struggle may require. The canonical observance of fasts is indeed valuable and by all means to be kept. But unless this is followed by a temperate partaking of food, one will not be able to arrive at the goal of perfection. For the abstinence of prolonged fasts-where repletion of body follows-produces weariness for a time rather than purity and chastity. Perfection of mind indeed depends upon the abstinence of the belly. He has no lasting purity and chastity, who is not contented always to keep to a well-balanced and temperate diet. Fasting, although severe, yet if unnecessary relaxation follows, is rendered useless, and presently leads to the vice of gluttony. A reasonable supply of food partaken of daily with moderation, is better than a severe and long fast at intervals. Excessive fasting has been known not only to undermine the constancy of the mind, but also to weaken the power of prayers through sheer weariness of body.

"Is order to preserve the mind and body in a perfect condition abstinence from food is not alone sufficient: unless the other virtues of the mind as well are joined to it. And so humility must first be learned by the virtue of obedience, and grinding toil15 and bodily exhaustion. The possession of money must not only be avoided, but the desire for it must be l utterly rooted out. For it is not enough not to possess it,-a thing which comes to many as a matter of necessity: but we ought, if by chance it is offered, not even to admit the wish to have it. The madness of anger should be controlled; the downcast look of dejection be overcome; vainglory should be despised, the disdainfulness of pride trampled under foot, and the shifting and wandering thoughts of the mind restrained by continual recollection of God. And the slippery wanderings of our heart should be brought back again to the contemplation of God as often as our crafty enemy, in his endeavour to lead away the mind a captive from this consideration, creeps into the innermost recesses of the heart. . . .

"We should then choose for our food, not only that which moderates the heat of burning lust, and avoids kindling it; but what is easily got ready, and what is recommended by its cheapness, and is suitable to the life of the brethren and their common use. For the nature of gluttony is threefold: first, there is that which forces us to anticipate the proper hour for a meal, next that which delights in stuffing the stomach, and gorging all kinds of food; thirdly, that which takes pleasure in more refined and delicate feasting. And so against it a monk should observe a threefold watch: first, he should wait till the proper time for breaking the fast; secondly, he should not give way to gorging; thirdly, he should be contented with any of the commoner sorts of food. For anything that is taken over and above what is customary and the common use of all, is branded by the ancient tradition of the fathers as defiled with the sin of vanity and glorying and ostentation. Nor of those whomwe have seen to be deservedly eminent for learning and discretion, or whom the grace of Christ has singled out as shining lights for every one to imitate, have we known any who have abstained from eating bread which is accounted cheap and easily to be obtained among them; nor have we seen that any one who has rejected this rule and given up the use of bread and taken to a diet of beansor herbs or fruits, has been reckoned among the most esteemed, or even acquired the grace of knowledge and discretion. For not only do they lay it down that a monk ought not to ask for foods which are not customary for others, lest his mode of life should be exposed publicly to all and rendered vain and idle and so be destroyed by the disease of vanity; but they insist that the common chastening discipline of fasts ought not lightly to be disclosed to any one, but as far as possible concealed and kept secret. But when any of the brethren arrive they rule that we ought to show the virtues of kindness and charity instead of observing a severe abstinence and our strict daily rule: nor should we consider what our own wishes and profit or the ardour of our desires may require, but set before us and gladly fulfil whatever the refreshment of the guest, or his weakness may demand from us."

[spurly]

CD, thanks for that thought provoking post.  It seems that in the past many people thought much more deeply about these matters, and took them more seriously, than we do today.

[BrianInChrist]

I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?

The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.

I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful.  Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh.  And yet Christ never sinned.

[BrianInChrist]

Websters Dictionary defines gluttony as: "excessive eating and drinking."

Like I said at the beginning, I agree that is the traditional meaning of the word "gluttony", at least in English.  I'm concerned about what God thinks about gluttony -- that is, when is overeating sinful.

[BrianInChrist]

jmg,

I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.

On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely).  Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful.  It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk. 

[Harold]

Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.

Amen Brother, I stand convicted with you. I stand in agreement with you.

FTL

By the authority and power of Jesus's name.

[BrianInChrist]

Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.

If I could honestly say that I am guilty of gluttony I would issue the same plea.  But it isn't clear to me exactly what gluttony is.  So it would be hypocritical of me to issue the same plea.

[Jaime]

Yes thank you CD. I am still digesting your post.........not that I ate it or anything mind you! 

[Jimbob]

I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?

The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.

I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful.  Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh.  And yet Christ never sinned.

If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.

[Jaime]

I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?

The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.

I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful.  Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh.  And yet Christ never sinned.

If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.

It depends on why the health was bad. But no, bad health unto itself is not a sin. I assume we all agree that some behavior that causes bad health could be sinful.

[BrianInChrist]

I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?

The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.

I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful.  Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh.  And yet Christ never sinned.

If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.

It depends on why the health was bad. But no, bad health unto itself is not a sin. I assume we all agree that some behavior that causes bad health could be sinful.

Not just because it causes bad health.  Smoking crack is sinful, but not because it's bad for your health.   It's sinful because the crack smoker is relying on crack instead of relying on God... idolatry.

[Jaime]

jmg,

I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.

On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely).  Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful.  It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk. 

How do you define drunkeness? What percent of impairment is OK before "drunk" occurs, biblically speaking? Is 5% impaired allowable, 2%? I don't know the anwer myself. If I knew the answer, my stance might be different.