UnSchoolers

[socrmom]

Patricia,
I am a former elem. teacher, and have often been asked about homeschooling.  At times I have considered it, but have yet to be convinced that this would be a good choice for my family.  I'm really not sure that I have the temperment required with my own children.  

But, if I were to homeschool, the major reason would be for the ability to \"unschool\".  This is the approach that I think I would be inclined to take. The idea of exploring the concepts and ideas in the world according to interests, and purposefully trying to expand the horizens of experience.  This is what sounds like fun!!!  I love the idea of getting kids to fall in love with learning, and to develop the skills of life along with it.  When one develops the learning curriculum according to the interests, strengths and weaknesses of that particular child, doesn't it sound great?  

What a wonderful opportunity the year ahead will be for your son to grow in so many ways.  I wish you both the best, and I am impressed with your ability to be successful in homeschooling.  I believe to do the job right takes an incredible level of dedication.  

Socrmom

[seekr]

patricia, I have had a variety of challenges, being the mother of 6. I've had, like you, the strong starter, who gives up too easily and struggled greatly with school. I have one who has to take special classes and has learning disabilities(my husband with his 140 IQ had to be in special ed because he was so dyslexic, before they knew much about it). But what i lack in, it seems my husband takes up the slack. I become frustrated too easily with my child who has learning disabilities and my husband knows exactly how to treat him and what he needs, because he's been there. We both learn much from each other. And I think because of the failure of the school system to teach, we need to be open to what it is our children need. And there are still some good teachers, but they are few. I agree with some of what B.H. was saying about the teachers and their arrogance in believing they know what is best for our children. Power is a great tool of destruction in the wrong hands. I may end up with a dropout, but if I do, will trust God to use that later in life. My main concern is always with the outcome, because the \"now\" can look so frustrating. We're learning right along with our children. Always an on-going process.

Maurine

[janine]

All of my kids, boys and girl, have dyed their hair various colors right along with me.  Hair, after all, grows back.  Daddy's the only stick-in-the-mud with totally natural, silverback-gorilla, graying black hair.

Piercings, on the other hand, take a lot longer to go away if you change your mind, may leave scars, and carry some risk of infection.  Some piercings, such as in the tongue or nipples, display implications about sexual behavior no young person needs to be advocating, much less participating in.  (That's supposedly where sagging originated, too; a symbol of sexual availability or \"ownership\" in the prisons...)

So, based upon: a) consideration of the message sent by what we do to the body, b) balancing between freedom and an obligation to avoid setting up stumbling blocks, and c) \"not while you're in my house!\", no one has pierced anything.  I haven't even gotten around to re-piercing the two \"normal\" earlobe spots I allowed to close as a young woman.  I'm terribly tired of clip earrings, so I'll likely do it sometime.  I don't think Daddy will have too hard a time dissuading the boys from joining me. :)

[Jeff]

We have approached the body-piercing issue from a health standpoint.  Within that context we have expressed to our children that they may have their ears pierced at age 13 (the age that, in our parental opinion, they are responsible enough to keep the pierced area clean and free from infection.)  We have also stated that we have serious concerns about the health implications of having piercings in other locations on the body and that we will not allow it.  

We've been pretty successful in managing the other issues:  makeup, hairstyles, clothing.  A lot of our success I credit as just a blessing God has given us as our children have been pretty compliant to this point (they are 15, 13, 10 and 9.)  The 15 y/o had his hair highlighted last summer and has gone through the hat-on-backward stage (but has complied with our request to not wear it in a building.)  The two girls (the 13 and 10 year olds) have experimented with makeup (it's still really a novelty to them) but understand they must pass Dad or Mom's inspection before they leave the house.

Well, but Timothy was half Greek and Paul was a Roman citizen! ;)

We homeschooled our son for a total of 6 years -- 3 elementary, three high school. We didn't \"unschool,\" not an option in our state. First I've heard the term. Our CHEO groups, State and local, were great. Roman and Greek classics weren't an item that I'm aware of, but Christian \"Classics\" were, such as McGuffey Readers. For college purposes, \"traditional\" homeschooling worked well. Watching the lightbulbs go on and seeing a concept \"caught\" was thrilling.  The opportunity we had to pray and study and learn together was something I'll cherish always. It was a challenge, but it was FUN!!

It's hard to believe another school year is upon us. Time goes so very, very fast when you pass that golden mark!

[patriciaredstone]

Is anyone here interested in or actively unschooling?

[patriciaredstone]

Bobby,

UnSchool is guided self-learning.

Children are provided with tools for learning, high-quality sensory and learning experineces. There is no \"baby talk\" around the house. The developing mind of the child is highly respected. No curriculum is used but life itself.

Unschooling actually requires more knowledgeable mentors even than conventional homeschool. It helps to be educated in childhood development and psychology. We did it for a year when our son was 6 years old and decided that he needed -- and wanted -- more structure. But as an ideal that is only workable for some, I think unschooling is the best way to go.

We may try unschooling one more year before our son goes off to a conventional school. He wants to learn to fly airplanes. We will not use any curriculum that year and we will split expenses in half. We will guide him as he visits flying schools, conducts research and interviews. Then he will have to find enough work to cover his expenses -- he is voice-over actor, so it should not be too difficult to let his agent know that he wants to do more auditions ... but he will have to make a new tape since his voice is changing ... this will require, for him, a high level of discipline. In the meantime, he will need to keep up his violin and swimming schedule. We will advise ... provide resources for research and be there for him to ask questions ... but it will require a great deal of self-motivation that he is not accustomed to.

That is unschool.

[seekr]

patricia, this is the first time I ever heard of unschooling, but it sounds great. I didn't homeschool, but I also do not care for the school system and dislike most of what i see. I only have 4 kids left in the system, but 2 of them I put in alternative school, which is a computer-based school and they can work at their own pace. I want my 7th grade twins to be in the computer school next year. My 18 year old boy is someone who excelled in the school system, even getting the presidential award for excellence in academics, but my concern for him for a long time was his trying to do things too perfectly. Way too strait-laced. His last year, though he started to become a little freer and even lived through getting some C's. LOL The things i teach them are about life, and that they are not measured by others standards. I also have taught my 15 year old daughter, art, as that has been her interest, as it was mine years ago.  My 16 year old, just this year has been learning guitar and joined a band. My husband is an avid fisherman and takes some of the kids and relates to them in ways I can't. I also rollerskate a lot(even worked at a rink as a skate guard on wheels up until a few months ago) so they could skate for free and have some sort of sport. I have never cared about grades as I think they do not reflect who a person is or who he is going to be. I still teach them to put forth effort and to not be slack, but I give them a lot of freedom. I also hate (I'm using the word hate, here)homework. If they would not have been accepted inot the computer school I would have homeschooled them as the high school where I live is a mess. I'm sure it represents a lot of what is going on elsewhere, though. I also like what you said about not taking just one resource for ideas. It sounds like you have the right ideas.

Maurine

[patriciaredstone]

Seeker,

Your post expresses so well that attentive parenting is unschooling. We all unschool our children to some degree when we cook with them, discuss the Bible, take them fishing, and make works of art. Even learning to argue politely, persuasively and creatively is unschooling! And who better to teach that than parents! We call our son \"The Litigator.\" We have a criminal lawyer friend who is going to tutor our son in criminal law with one of his murder trials!

But my son sure is different than your son! He is a strong starter, but as soon as something becomes difficult, he resists. I have other friends who complain that their children are obcessive perfectionists ... I say, \"You call THAT a problem!\" Lucky you!

[socrmom]

Patricia,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.  we had a sermon a few weeks ago on parenting, I didn't hear most of it 'cause I was helping in the nursery, but one comment made was something like this, \"Before I had children, I had 6 great theories about raising kids.  Now that I have children, I have no theories left.\"  This seems so true for me, and becomes more so the older they get!!
We are fortunate to live in an area where the schools are pretty good.  My kids fit pretty well, and for now, we have a good fit with the education system.  Of course, that is not to say it doesn't have it's flaws.  My oldest, in 4th grade, has really struggled with the amount of homework.  Yuck!!!

Maurine,  I am in awe of you.  6 children!!  Do you have any sanity left?  From your posts, it appears you do!  It is so amazing to me how different one child is from another!!   I think that is another good reason to unschool.  As your post indicated, we do so much of this with our children as we just go along, sharing our lives, and our faith with them, and allowing them to participate with us as we go.  

Socrmom

[seekr]

socrmom, I do not make any claims to sanity and my kids could attest to that fact. I think normality is overrated. I have to also admit to doing a countdown with the youngest(the twins) being 13 (5 more years!). At age 38, I had 4 babies in diapers, that is when most of the brain cells left. A sense of humor is a very valuable tool, also, when raising kids and the fact that I refuse to grow up. there are those days when you feel like your efforts are wasted and why bother when the rewards are just more laundry and anger has taken them away, momentarily--but I trust in His efforts so much more than mine. I do not try to be the perfect parent, I just want to live in love (even if I'm pulling my hair out at the moment).

Maurine

[patriciaredstone]

I KNEW there were UnSchoolers out there!

It is great to keep company with such a wonderful group of dedicated parents!

Now, I have another question: What body parts would you allow your child to have pierced and at what age? So far my son has not disclosed any piercing plans, but I have friends with good, sensible (?), Godly, Christian kids who are begging parental permission for eybrow, nose, cheek and navel piercings.

So far I have combated the milder things, like sagging and blue hair, by telling my son that he has my permission and dad will participate with him! We have done a few eccentric things to make him believe that we could be serious. But I think -- with body and face piercing -- he might call my bluff.

What is your parental policy on mutilation?

[chrischar]

What ever happened to the Bible method of parenting? \"Children obey your parents...\" \"Spare not the rod...\"

Maybe I am just too old fashioned to expect anyone to follow the Bible.

Chris

[4kidsandadog]

Entering this conversation a little late....

I love unschooling, have done it in the past, but my kids need more structure.  Or maybe I am the one who needs it!  I think it is easiest when they are very young or when they are old enough to do most of the exploration and discovering on their own.  I have looked envyingly at other families who have children older than mine (who are 20mo, 3, 6, and 10) and think about what life will be like when we reach that stage.  I just know that without a more structured approach, life seems like total chaos here.  Even with structure, it is often chaotic!

I do encourage my children to explore what interests them and if there is a way I can help them find out more, then I do it.  But we are also doing more traditional types of learning.

Addressing the piercing/mutilation issue: obviously, my kids aren't to this point yet (I only have a 10 who is asking when she can wear makeup!  Ack).  I understand Chris' question about \"what about 'Children obey your parents'\"... but I think when you have children that are nearing adulthood, that are at an age of reason, the old \"Because I said so,\" isn't our best line of reasoning.  That may be what it boils down to, but our kids need to learn how to reason and use God's word to make judgments, not just do or not do things because of our authority over them.  I don't think anyone here was saying that they couldn't get their children to obey; they were looking for input on other's thoughts on the permissibility/appropriateness of piercings, etc.  Honestly, if a parent has definite thoughts on it and doesn't want to allow it, then he/she can make that known.  But there is no clearcut condemnation or forbidding of it.  There are guidelines that lead most of us to say it probably isn't a great idea.  We need to share those things with our kids, let them tell us what their decision would be, then work it out together. Playing puppetmaster doesn't teach our children anything about obeying God.  (Oh my... it is awfully high up here on this soapbox!  I better be careful getting down... *big grin.)

Karen
military homeschooling mom of 4

[janine]

I guess the goal is to point to Scripture, live out the Scriptures yourself, and try to develop in the kids the reasoning ability to stand on Scripture to support their behavioral/decorative decisions...

Yes, Chrischar, they need to obey, and they WILL OBEY while they're under MY ROOF or I'll know WHY NOT!!!

But, based upon our Christian convictions and understanding of the Scriptures, not every issue is an \"I'm standing in the gap with my sword and a trowel and you'd better get back in line!\" sort of issue.

Not every aspect of life dangles directly off of a \"thou shalt not\" or a \"thou shalt\".

I do believe I've seen an OT passage against tatooing and/or ritual scarring, but context seemed to have more to do with not looking like the heathen than with the actual doing of it...
I'm gonna look that up, since it'd be handy to refer to.  If anyone finds it let me know. ;)

[Seeker]

Unschooling sounds interesting. Don't get me wrong. I think it is our duty to help the public schools. The reason for the attacks on public schools over the past 30 years is racism, plain and simple. The second reason is sexism, because women hold huge power in the public schools. We need to support the public schools and fight racism and sexism.

But this unschooling sounds a whole lot better than that Classical Christian stuff. Those Greeks and Romans were racist, sexist slave owners, as well as pagans. The only thing you can learn from them is bad. That's why 'conservative' Christians have started to emphasize 'the Classics.' It's their way of making a case for racism and sexism without admitting it.

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Seeker @ June 13 2002,1:59)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Unschooling sounds interesting. Don't get me wrong. I think it is our duty to help the public schools. The reason for the attacks on public schools over the past 30 years is racism, plain and simple. The second reason is sexism, because women hold huge power in the public schools. We need to support the public schools and fight racism and sexism.

But this unschooling sounds a whole lot better than that Classical Christian stuff. Those Greeks and Romans were racist, sexist slave owners, as well as pagans. The only thing you can learn from them is bad. That's why 'conservative' Christians have started to emphasize 'the Classics.' It's their way of making a case for racism and sexism without admitting it.[/quote]
Actually an renewed emphasis in the classics is not reserved for the Christian community. It is a response to some of the really bad literature that is being pushed by the school system. I use classic literature to teach my son and I always have. For instance, rather than having him learn to read with the stupid Sally, Dick and Jane books put together by committee, I used haiku poetry. It is a beautiful thing for a child to learn to read with beautiful literature. He is in the 8th grade this year and he will read from the classical greats because good literature deserves to be reexplored and reevaluated by every generation. Classical literature has historic as well as literary value. These are the books that changed the world. As well as classics he will read modern writers like Gabriel Garcia Marquez who reads and lectures on the classics.

[Bill]

Sonlight

WileyClarkson, a regular poster on this board is from Texas & he has a relative that I believe has a web site on homeschooling.  He would be a good source for contacts.  He is gone for a week or two but I know he would help you out if you would e-mail him.  Why not register and then you could use personal messages both send & receive.

Bill

[bobbyV]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ May 09 2002,01:37)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Is anyone here interested in or actively unschooling?[/quote]
I guess I am out of touch.  What does that mean?

Bobby Valentine
bvalentine@dixie-net.com

[patriciaredstone]

Socermom,

Very seldom do I see a loving parent make the wrong choices about their child's education. Loved children will excell regardless. BUT you would make a GREAT unschool teacher! You have to be able to listen very well to your child to know what he/she needs ... and it is better if they have never had any school experience prior to being unschooled. Maybe you can unschool a grandchild someday!

Other than too much homework and getting into the private lives of citizens, I do not have any major problems with the school system. My son came out of foster care to us at three years old. He had an anxiety disorder that we decided to treat without medications. Keeping his environment steady with few surprises, no media distractions and realatively quiet worked wonders with him at home ... but at school he went berserk. After a year with no success, we just decided to homeschool. He is much better in social situations now, and has learned to prepare for the anxiety and to control it. Also, it didn't help at school that he was placed in the gifted group. The teacher there had some strange idea that gifted children \"were just different\" and did not discipline them well. It was kind of a \"free for all.\" My son just does better in highly structured activites with as few choices as possible. We give him opportunites to express independence, but he usually fails ... I think that happens because independence does not feel secure to him and the anxiety takes over ...

But he is old enough now to discuss these problems and work through them consciously and directly. We are taking a long time to adjust him to the idea of entering school in ninth grade ... and he needs that time. School puts out so many stressful signals to children. It is stressful for an adult, much less a teenager trying to overcome deep emotional wounds.

And, yes, I think our year of unschooling will be a fantastic opportunity for him to \"get his wings\"!

[janine]

Good thread, guys.

Good parents are actively homeschooling/unschooling all the time, anyway, even if they are fortunate enough to have a decent public school at their disposal.

Unless you're going to cut off all the world's media access to your home, leaving a Tibetan monastery sort of atmosphere  (and even then, you'll infect them yourself somewhat), you will need to continuously scrape the world off your kids.  This is vital when they're in groups out of your direct supervision, whether public, private or parochial schools, or any other group.

Keep on with the hands-on, folks.  Our kids are worth every drop of blood, sweat & tears.

[seekr]

Chris, I'm confused by what you're saying. Does talking about teaching methods mean to not include Christ?  I'm sure that is not what any of us meant. But lovingly teaching them by giving of yourself is showing them Jesus.  Religiosity wounds, relationship builds and encourages.

seekr

[janine]

And another thing...

Considering the OT symbolism of the slave loving his master and voluntarily staying with him, I don't see why it would be so horrible to see young Christian men showing their dedication to the Lord with a Christian fish or cross symbol in a pierced earlobe...  but, as my husband (only half-joking) says, \"A man with his right ear pierced in a homosexual, and with his left ear pierced in a wanna-be homosexual.\"

Hey, don't stone me for that quote, that's a real opinion of real guys \"out there\", and one of several reasons why our sons aren't \"holey\".

Ah, well, I guess our boys will have to wait, practicing being \"holy\", until they're out of the house; then, they can get \"holey\" if they want to. :p

[patriciaredstone]

Thanks everyone for your opinions! Wow! There is a lot of variety there to consider!

We live in Southern California and most of the \"good Christian kids\" have something pierced ... even the boys. My son has not expressed a desire for a piercing, he has only shown disgusted interest in a few lately. My observation of the boy is that \"I would NEVER do that!\" means that he is working it over in his mind. I was the same way ... once. :)

I like the \"health\" issue. And it IS a health issue! A niece was in a very traumatic car accident where two friends in the same car were killed. They were about to do some emergency surgery to help her breathe when they learned that the swollen tongue blocking her airways had been pierced a couple of weeks earlier and badly damaged in the accident as a result of the piercing. She has recovered, but she will always have problems with her speech.

Still, teens need an opportunity to make decisions. I wish there was a website for women to display their tatooed navels after pregnancy ... those butterflys begin to look like moths after the first, by the third they look like something that got squished on your windshield...

Something got in my computer the day I did my post, because most of what I'm sure I wrote is not there, and my question was totally lost.

What I thought I said was that Seeker must not live in the midwest; many of my friends who happen to be women teachers would be astounded to know they had any kind of power, let alone \"huge\" power. They'd just like parity on the pay scale thing.

Secondly, the classics..we studied Greek and Roman classics in English and Latin (three years) classes and I taught them to my son. I wasn't aware that the classics reflected any more racist, sexist slave owner issues than we find in Scripture; it's the time they lived in. Classic literature, aside from containing beautiful, flowing language has historical merit.  

At our home educator's convention where we were distributing books, etc., we had a very young mother come up who wanted to see where we had our \"real\" classics, and when we took her to the shelves, she said, no, she wanted the \"real\" classics, you know, the McGuffey readers and stuff like that! :(    

I have no idea how that original post got there in that form. I'm sure gremlins wrote it whilst I slept.  Okay...so maybe I wrote it whilst I slept!!

My question is this: A woman came into the library and her husband is going to be stationed in Texas. Are any of you who homeschool/unschool living in Texas, and are there special requirements regarding homeschooling in Texas?  Must you be a licensed teacher; do you have to report to school districts, etc.?  Thought I'd ask here before we go fishing on the net.