Santa Claus

[spurly]

As another single person, I want to chime in.  I don't know what I would tell my children.  I've gone back and forth on the use of Santa.  Currently I am leaning more towards using it for all the good that could come out of telling the real story of Saint Nicholas.

Kevin

[seekr]

And James, I love a lot of what you say, but wouldn't loving respect, towards your relatives and their wishes, count more than a harsh stance? We are free to celebrate or not, but love always overrides the rules.

seekr

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (James Rondon @ Dec. 20 2002,8:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Cute... \"Santa\".[/quote]
And here I was knowing you would like it. Let that smile on your lips be your special present from Santa this year, I hope you share it because it is a magic gift, the more you share it the more it will grow.

God Bless you REAL WELL!!
Shonna Nollaig  
Feliz Navidad
Papa Noel
 :hug:  :christmas:  :hug:  :christmas:  :hug:  :christmas:  :hug:  :christmas:  :hug:  :christmas:

[If someone asks me about Santa, I will tell them what I know... I will tell them the truth. ]

If you've ever read your child a fictional story...

If you let your children watch fictional movies...

If you tell you children wonderful stories of adventure at bed time based on the notion of \"once upon a time...\"

Santa is a fictional story we tell our children.  If you believe it is a lie, then I guess it is but as I writer... I tell stories and if FICTION is a lie then I'm in big trouble, huh?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,01:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems that I have many disciples... Ho, Ho, Ho!  :christmas:[/quote]
Now, if we can only get the Lord Almighty to make a personal appearance! :sarcasim:

Santa, if you are make believe, yet people still believe in you, what about God?  Is God Santa Claus for adults?

The words of BH are ended.

[James Rondon]

Greetings.

It seems that, at least to some, the truth can be very subjective... I guess Bill Clinton has made more of an impact upon us than most would like to admit! In response to a few comments that have been made regarding the fat man in the red suit (who doesn't exist, by the way!):

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Jolly Fat Man wrote...
Am I a liar because I write fiction?  Tell fictional stories?  Just curious... I guess to some I am.[/quote]

If you write fiction, and publish it as non fiction... then, yes, you are a liar. If you tell fictional stories, but say that they are non fiction... then, yes, you are a liar.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kmv wrote...
In case you haven't guessed, I do have an issue with people (and this often includes me) being so VERY sure they know best.  It is entirely possible that, despite your sincere effort to do the right thing, you are still wrong.  Leave room for that.  Respect your brother and his family enough to believe that they are doing the best thing for them.[/quote]  

Are you trying to tell me that I am wrong? Yes, Kari, I always leave room for the possibility that I could be wrong on anything... But your responses have not proven that at all. I respect my family members in a lot of different ways... My brother in law has a little girl that he will not teach about God... Should I respect that? If she asks me, should I avoid the subject? Should I say... \"ask daddy\"? Just curious.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kmv...
This whole thing reminds me of trying to explain the Harry Potter controversy to my son a few years ago.  We enjoyed the books, but I tried to explain that some parents thought they promoted witchcraft.  He just looked at me with that 'grownups are so dumb' look and said, \"Mom, don't they understand make-believe?\"[/quote]

Does your son believe that Santa is \"make believe\"? He believes that about Harry Potter... (by the way, I won't even get into the whole Harry Potter thing... But by the sounds of it, maybe a topic on that should get started also; cf. 2 Chr. 33:6).

I appreciate some of the more recent comments on this subject... It seems that I do not stand entirely alone in my convictions.

By the way, the world even knows that the whole Santa thing is a lie... They call it \"a little white lie\", or \"an innocent little lie\"... At least they call it for what it is!


James Rondon

\"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?\" (Gal. 4:16)

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Richard @ Dec. 21 2002,09:31)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Last Christmas, when my daughter was eight, she asked my wife and I if there really is a Santa.  She was very serious and concerned because many of her friends had been telling her that \"your parents are really Santa.\"
We told her that, \"yes the presents that appear Christmas morning labeled Santa are put there by us.\"
She cried and told us that she still believed in Santa.  We said they we too believe in the spirit of Santa.
This year, at the age of nine, she still says she doesn't care what everyone else says, she wants to believe in Santa.  So this year, there will be presents under the tree Christmas morning labeled \"From Santa.\"

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it :christmas:

Richard[/quote]
Hey, I'm 35 and my dad still labels most of his gifts \"From Santa\" :christmas:

Kevin

[Fate]

Kevin,

I guess that would be a \"combo\" whoa :thumbup:! Oh yeah, and feel free to use anytghing from my post on the Matrix thread in your sermon. :christmas:

[marc]

Okay, if you'll allow a childless one :wave: to stir up an argument, Parents:  what do or what did you tell your kids about Santa Claus?  Do they or did they believe?  What was your reasoning behind this decision (or was there reasoning)?  Just curious as I watch my sisters do things I don't think I would do. :christmas:

[marc]

Just want to clarify after reading the first few of posts:  I Love Christmas and I am not Anti-Santa![/i][/u] My question (although I didn't get specific because I wanted to see the whole range of responses) was more about telling kids that Santa was real. :christmas:  :christmas:  :christmas:  :christmas:  :christmas:

I've dressed up as Santa myself (most recently for a charity a couple of years ago) and enjoy going overboard to the point of tastelessness with Christmas lights.  As one of our ex-presidents might have said \"I am not a grinch\".

[WileyClarkson]

I used to be against the idea of celebrating Christmas at all.  I viewed it as a time of religious and secular falsehood, extreme materialism, and it couldn't be shown as being in original 1st century Christianity.  This was after I had children.  My wife's family and most of the Christians I knew at the time would say it was ok to celebrate Christmas as a Santa Clause day as long as we did not mention the birth of Christ on that day, and did not sing religious Christmas songs/carols--especially in the worship.  This was a part of the denominational heresy.  The church we were members of at the time we married had undergone a split a few years earlier, partially over Christmas.  What a silly thing to split over!!!

My kids grew up with Santa.  My oldest twin was the last to give up on Santa and we literally ruined her day when we finally had to tell her :( .  It's still a sticky subject with her  :0 and she is now 24!  

I now believe and encourage the religious view of Christmas along with the Santa participation for the youngsters.  I used to think it was lying to the kids to let them believe in Santa, but, while a few will have a hard time accepting the idea that Santa is really imaginary, the vast majority enjoy the game of finding out.  It does help the imagination and the game playing process in the growth process, even in the case of a child like my oldest (added) twin daughter.  It helps with the acceptance of real life, IMO.  I still have a real problem with the materialistic side of Christmas as it has gone to extremes.  I just let my wife handle that part :D  I enjoy the outside decorating and singing the songs--and leading the songs when given the opportunity.  I love reading Scripture every year at a given time to refresh myself about the birth.

Without the birth--there would have been no death!  It is very important and we need to get over the idea that we can't celebrate the birt, even though we don't know the exact date.  We just need to keep it in perspective.  And we need to enjoy the amazement of what the children view as having been left by Santa



[!--EDIT|WileyClarkson|Dec. 20 2002,1:05--]

[spurly]

James,

I can see your point and I respect you for it.  My aunt and uncle had the same convictions as you do.

So I want to encourage you, as you don't celebrate Christmas, to not celebrate it, for the glory of the Lord.  As I celebrate, I will celebrate it for the same reason.  And we will let our judge sort everything out.

For some reason, when the smoke clears, I think we will both be standing!  We may even be standing next to each other as we throw our crowns at his feet.  Something just tells me that.  Maybe its Romans 14.

Kevin

Romans 14:3-10 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.  Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.  He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.  For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.  If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.\"

[WileyClarkson]

Julie,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--].  When they would ask if Santa was real...we would ask...what do you think?  I also think that would be a good response for James and his nieces and nephews.  It puts it back in their laps and they usually have an opinion or they wouldn't be asking[/quote]

That's the exact thing we used to tell our girls!  Works great!!!

:christmas:

It seems that I have many disciples... Ho, Ho, Ho!  :christmas:

[seekr]

Again though, I will say \"it is not about the outside\". It doesn't matter how we celebrate or what we share, as long as we are sharing God's love. We need not fear pagan revelry, because God knows us each personally and looks at our hearts. Fear binds us up but love sets us free and we are free to choose santa or no santa, celebration or no celebration. Isn't our God wonderful that He allows that for us?

Merry Christmas

seekr

[Fate]

Santa you crack me up! By the By... What about that Kittle's for me and PlayStation 2 for the kiddies? (or was that  PlayStation 2 for me and Kittle's for the kiddies?) ;)

[susieface]

:christmas: I think believing in Santa kind of sets the stage for a faith and belief in God.  Believing in those things not seen.  
We have to make the focus on Christ.  But the true story of St. Nick is a great point and example of the true meaning of christmas.

We have always let our children tell us when they stopped believing in Santa.  If they are asking then they still believe. of course we still have one who still believes, but with our oldest 2 they just got to the point where it didn't make sense to them anymore.  
They just grew up and said they didn't believe.  I was the same way.  My parents always said there was one until the day I said I knew there wasn't.  That it was all fun and pretend.  Broke my dad's heart.  His baby was growing up.  He still had to do the santa thing one last time that Christmas.  Actually I stopped believing in the summer and My dad kept trying to get Me to change my mind all the way up to Christmas, asking me if I wanted to go see santa and what was I gonna ask santa for.  I just laughed.  But I wouldn't change it for the world.  Wonderful memories!!
My dad is in heaven now and I guess I am feeling nostalgic.  He loved Christmas so much.
Susie

[James Rondon]

Finally someone brings it up!!!

My wife and I don't celebrate Christmas, but have Christian relatives that do. We do not \"despise\" them because of this, but observe the liberty that Rom. 14 offers in this regard.

That being said, these relatives of ours not only celebrate Christmas, but they lie to their kids about Santa Claus! Even worse, they expect my wife and I to honor their lie... Which we, in good conscience, of course cannot do.

\"Oh, it's just an innocent lie...\", they will say... But what lie is innocent? Doesn't this set a bad precedent for their children? (cf. Rev. 21:8)... Doesn't this encourage untruth? (cf. Prov. 22:6; Eph. 6:4; see also Matt. 5:19; 18:2-7).

I'm venting!!!

Let's see how other parents respond!


James Rondon

\"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.\" (Matt. 5:19)

[spurly]

Seekr:

I know this is off the topic, but maybe you can address it and then steer us back to Santa.   :lookaround:

You said:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
It is not counted as sin if your heart is clean.
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on what you mean?

Kevin

[Bon Voyage]

I never believed in Santa Claus and my parents didn't push it one way or the other.

When I have children I dont think I will push it and I won't lie  to them.  The real story of St. Nicholas has value.

What is sad is some people make the celebrating of Christmas another salvation issue.

[Booty]

Ach Jimmy,

But it is real I am indeed my lad. When you hug me, I hug you back real hard. My lap is warm and I swell like cinamon and vanilla when you climb up to share your wee secrets with me. And I do listen Lad, I listen to every word. Just as you listen to every word when I tell you how wonderful it is that we can share in celebrating the birth of our dear precious Lord. And we celebrate this very special birth by sharing our love one for the other.

Now there have been those who have put a touch of the Blarney in my powers and abilities. The idea of the reindeer, well you know how stories like that get started, some folk just love to wag their chins Lad and there is no stopping them.

But I can and am everywhere at once on one special night of the year. In spirit lad, the spirit of love and good will. Is it a lie Lad, don't I love you? Is that love and good will something sinful?  

Oh I know Jimmy that there are those who have made a commercial venture out of me, I am a syndicated product marketed in the manner of the miracle knives and the super polishes for the autos. Just as there are those who market our dear Lord Jesus as well, just as they market Him. But Jimmy their despicable marketing of Him does not take away one bit from the truth and grace He brings us. Nor does their marketing of me take away from the love and good will I stand for.

Now rest easy lad and do make sure the cookies are out, remember I like bran best of all.

Love you Jimmy in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth whose birthday we soon will celebrate.

Papa Noel
aka
Brojees
aka
Booty

[kmv]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I may be reading you wrong... But the post scripts of your last post seemed somewhat derogatory and confrontational. I hope that I'm wrong... But if that is the case, is that a part of the \"Christmas spirit\"?[/quote]

Well, I don't mean to sound derogatory.  You're decision is admirable for you, but it is presumptuous for us to decide for others what their children should be told.    

In case you haven't guessed, I do have an issue with people (and this often includes me) being so VERY sure they know best.  It is entirely possible that, despite your sincere effort to do the right thing, you are still wrong.  Leave room for that.  Respect your brother and his family enough to believe that they are doing the best thing for them.  

Quite frankly, being a 'Santa' kid, I have no memory of any trauma from discovering by uncle Jack was really the big guy.  Just a sense of joy in making it fun for the younger kids.  And neither of my kids have had any problems.  I always gave the 'what do you think' answer.  And they always played along.  

'True' is not the same as 'factual.'  It depends on the motivation (the heart).   I can deceive with facts; I can tell the truth through a story.  Good literature is good because it is true, but it is usually not factual.  Jesus' parables were not factual, but we certainly wouldn't say they are not truth.

Perhaps the 'restoration churches' just need more English lit majors.

This whole thing reminds me of trying to explain the Harry Potter controversy to my son a few years ago.  We enjoyed the books, but I tried to explain that some parents thought they promoted witchcraft.  He just looked at me with that 'grownups are so dumb' look and said, \"Mom, don't they understand make-believe?\"

Kari.

[marc]

Yeesh, you would think I had mentioned instrumental music! :saint:

Okay, since I started this I guess I should comment (though being childless I really have no real place to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do).

I grew up with Santa Claus.   :christmas:  My parents were divorced before I was a year old, and until my mother remarried when I was seven we lived with my grandmother.  She was a short, active lady who had been close enough to her Irish Grandparents to carry over a lot of their customs, attitudes and superstitions (back then, back in the hills, you didn't stray far from your roots).  She loved Christmas and she loved Santa.  For as long as she could she did everything to convince any children around that Santa was real, even making up stories to make Santa more believable.

When I was still young (I can't remember the exact age) I asked Mom how Santa could afford all of those presents, and she told me the truth about Santa Claus.  I felt betrayed.  I cried and moped around for days (for what it's worth she remembers this quite differently. She says I came to her and announced I knew Santa wasn't real.  She gets her kids mixed up sometimes).

I was upset for maybe a week.  Then, I got back into Christmas a quickly and throughly as ever.  In the house where I lived, it was impossible not to!  The joy of Christmas was lessened for me not when I found out about Santa, but when my grandmother died in October 1978 (when I was 16).

My mother and stepfather had two daughters after me.  They never told either of them that Santa was real, and they never told them that he wasn't.  They did what Wiley (I think, I've read a lot of posts) mentioned when they were asked if Santa was real, saying \"what do you think?\"  Both of my sisters, however, have taught their kids to believe in Santa.

Anyway, I said all that to say this:  I love Christmas! :christmas: This is indeed a season of joy!  I think it's a wonderful thing that the world is forced to adknowledge a day that says \"God Came to earth as a baby\", even if they do have to be brought in by bright lights, a jolly old man in  a red suit and flying reindeer.  Hey, I even love all of the trappings!  I think this is an absolutely wonderful time of year.  I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd go crazy without the break in the winter routine the holiday provides. :clap:

If I had kids, would I tell them Santa was real?  I don't think so, but I would tell them about Santa.  I'd probably do something like my parents did with my younger sisters.  Give them the fantasy without making it as real as the story of Jesus' birth.  I do see a distinction there.

But hey, this is a joyous time of year.  Be happy!  Celebrate! :hug:  :inlove:  :christmas:  :thumbup:

[Santa Claus]

The elves over in legal, (Dewy, Chi, Tum & Howe) have requested I post this to cover all the bases. (Forgive them, they spend quite a few hours dealing with frivolous roof and chimney claims.)

Subject: Happy Holidays from the North Pole Legal Department

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all . . .

. . . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and specifically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2003, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great, (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only \"AMERICA\" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, or choice of computer platform of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher.

This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

The only attorneys harmed in the making of this greeting were bad anyway.

Happy Holidays!

[Santa Claus]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Fate @ Dec. 21 2002,7:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Santa you crack me up! By the By... What about that Kittle's for me and PlayStation 2 for the kiddies? (or was that  PlayStation 2 for me and Kittle's for the kiddies?) ;)[/quote]
Fate,

Well I checked my list and there was that one incident in early May....But certainly the Kittles for you and the children will share their Playstation II with you!!



Kevin,

Your Dad and I talked about that. Your chronological age does not impeed you from the joy I represent.



Wiley,

Now it's miracles your asking for, is it? Well I will join you in Prayer for your missing hair!!

Oh and tell your daughter the Mrs and I were listening on those carols she was singing as she went about her day, WELL DONE!!

[admin]

My 15 month-old boy recently saw Santa for the first time. He was so scared! He reached back for mommy and daddy. LOL.

Maybe next year.:blush:

Lee

[duckman]

In our home we celebrate Christmas with all the traditional trimings, though we do temper it with an understanding that we have no idea when Jesus was born, and that we should celebrate Jesus each day of our lives.

We have 3 children, ages 19, 17, and 5.  We have taken great joy in sharing with them the story of Santa Claus, along with the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

While I understand the lying arguement, I see these activities as putting two things at work in our children - the ability to use and explore their imaginations, and the opportunity to have joy in their lives.  I believe those 2 qualities will help them grow up to be optimistic, positive peope, as they learn to imagine what can be, and as they learn to experience joy in every way they can.

Just my opinion - our 19 and 17 year old seem to have turned out pretty well despite believing in Santa as they grew up, and I have confidence that the 5 year old will be the same way.

God bless,

Duckman

[seekr]

I also love all the festivities that go with Christmas, including Santa. I would tell them along with the Santa fabrication(lie), that he was just a man.

Love, again is the law and I allowed the fantasies of childhood because of the joy it created for them and no harm was done, as sin is never about the outside but the heart. It is not counted as sin if your heart is clean.

seekr

[spurly]

Seekr said:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This may take a lot of elaboration. Just go back and read everything I have ever posted. Just kidding.[/quote]

That was funny.  Thanks for the laugh.   :p

Seekr said:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Jesus said \"It is not what goes into a man that makes him 'unclean'.\" He also said \"the flesh counts for nothing\". When Christ came to earth He showed intent. He broke the Sabbath to show intent. Rahab lied, because love counted more and it was not sin, because it was God's will. David and his men were allowed to break the \"rules\" when they were hungry, because love was the motive and tending the sheep is what shepherding really is. Why wasn't David's sin of adultry counted against him for all those wives and concubines, when God's perfect will was for it to be for us to have one mate and yet he was only accused of adultry with Bathsheba? Was it that David's heart was not about love at that moment?[/quote]

I'm not so sure David's sin wasn't counted against him.  He very well may have had consequences among his harem, and we know he did with his children.  He paid the price for this sin.  However, he was a man after God's heart.

Seekr said:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
God already knows we are sinners and we are going to sin...otherwise He would not have to die on a cross. It is not our acts before Him that save us...it is our love and compassion and our willingness to go wherever He would have us go. If we struggle with sin and we never completely overcome it (do we become perfect in this life?)are we unsaved? None of us can escape this carnal nature. So if your sins are weightier than someone else's, are you less of a Christian? If a homosexual comes to God and then falls back into it, is he saved? If he hates the fact that he did this and yet because others are taking harsh stances over his not overcomeing, he gives in, because he lives discouraged...whose sin is weightier at this point? Is it those who have become proud of the fact that they have overcome so much?  Pride is the worst sin of all, as they point their fingers at others. So this man who has given up, does God count his sin against him, when he loves Him, if it isn't the act itself, but what lives within? Does God see his broken heart? We look at sin as something other than it is. It is just part of us and will be till we die. The difference is, not if we overcome it all, because we cannot completely, but if we love. Sin is sin, because of a wicked heart and the knowledge that precedes it. The Pharisees were guilty because they saw and knew who Jesus was. Remember the parable of the master of the vineyard? They knew they killed the heir.[/quote]

I would also add that in addition to love, compassion and willingness to go saving us, faith in God has a big role to play here as well.  

For those who stuggle with sin and never completely overcome it, they are definitely not lost.  It doesn't matter if he/she is struggling with homosexual sin, heterosexual sin, lying sin, stealing sin, envy sin, etc.  Because it is a \"struggle\", that shows that God is inside of them, still dealing with them and still drawing them to himself.  However, he is working with them in order to prune them by his love.  As Max Lucado says, \"God loves us just as we are, but he loves us too much to let us stay that way\".  Or something like that.

I agree that the difference in people of faith who stuggle with sin and pagans is a love for the Father and a desire to please him.

I just wanted to make sure you were not saying, all we have to do is love, and then we can do whatever we want.  It doesn't sound like you are saying that.

Now, can we get back to something more important - the guy in the big red suit.   :lookaround:

Kevin

[James Rondon]

Cute... \"Santa\".

[James Rondon]

Dear \"No Red Suit\"...

I agree that most parents read and tell a lot of \"fairy tales\" to their children... We don't. Every night, before we put our children to bed, we read from their Children's Bible (hardly a \"fairy tale\").

It's one thing for a parent to read stories to their children about, let's say... Bob the Tomato, and Larry the Cucumber. It's another thing to tell them that Bob and Larry are real, that they are watching them, and if they have been good little girls and boys, Bob and Larry will magically transport a load of presents to them and all the other good children throughout the whole world.

By the way... I don't think I would take as much flack for telling a kid that Bob and Larry are not real...

Why is it different with Santa?

Something to think about.

[Santa Claus]

testing HoHo Ho? testing Ho ho Ho Testing ho ho ho?

Can you hear me in back?

testing Hop Ho ho ?

Oh these modern contraptions, the addle me properly!!

testing ho Ho Ho?

[Santa Claus]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 21 2002,4:54)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Santa, you won't leave coal in my stocking because I started this thread, will you? :cry:

btw, from your greeting I take it that there are no time zones up on top of the world and it's always noon.  I've wondered about that. :alien:[/quote]
Marc,

Rest assured, your trifles are secure. This thread was needed.

Now a few of the anti elves did try and establish time zones once, created total havoc with the shift schedule it did! Paint and Finish was going home three hours before Assemby finished and we have no buffer in the assembly line!  

Now we all are on Christmas Time, I am sure you have heard of it!!! :thumbup:  :crackup:  :crackup:

Santa

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Fate @ Dec. 21 2002,10:35)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin,

:lookaround: Whoa.[/quote]
Was that \"whoa\" because I am 35, or because my dad still puts gift under the tree and labels them \"from Santa\"?

:christmas:  :christmas:  :christmas:
Kevin

[marc]

My youngest sister's son was absolutely terrified of Santa last year, and he was almost three.  This year, though, he has finally come around (although he insists that the real Santa is the one he saw at the mall and all the rest are only people dressed up like Santa).  Come to think of it, if a toddler wasn't afraid of a big guy dressed in bright red with a funny hat and a long white beard, maybe that's when you should be worried. :lookaround: