Television

Second attempt @ posting tonite... Wonder if it was the Lord or Satan keeping me away? :p

Friend Pat w/ me tonite; she, too is all for restricting/protecting/discussing/guiding/PRAYING as regards what the family watches on TV, in movies, etc.

From Pat:  God is so pure and holy.  He is our very best friend.  He deserves our constant focus and praise.  He wants so much for us and our children to know and love Him.  He wants to be in everything we do.  I have regarded much television as potentially dangerous (spiritually), and have always sought to monitor what was going into our kids' heads because I wanted to live out the verses from II Cor 6:17-7:1.  I have wanted to \"perfect holiness out of reverence for God\" and \"touch no unclean thing\" and \"avoid contamination\" -- I guess I just want them to keep aware that Jesus is holding their hand -- that wherever they are, He is there with them -- I want them to make Him proud and keep Him smiling -- no tears.  He made them so valuable and so precious.  I want to keep them clean for God.  If they are to watch TV, a movie, read a book, talk with a neighbor/friend/relative, they need to learn how to evaluate God's perspective on what is being conveyed -- if Jesus wouldn't sit still for it, should we?  We can be influenced by Satan through the lies of the media or even significant others.  Only the truth and God's grace can make glory possible.  (I'm having trouble concentrating, if this makes no sense, please forgive me) -- Let's pray with and for our kids, help them compare God's word with the messages coming at them -- and try to make Him happy by doing what is clean and good.  I have a problem with much in the media (I don't allow many things) -- concerned folks think I'm overprotective and that I shelter my kids too much.  I want what's God's best for them, though.  And I can't compromise on my conscience.  God bless you and your family always and all ways, to His glory!        Love in Christ

I love Pat.  She's great.  It's obvious she's oozing Christian charity, since she loves me despite my love for occasional movies her smut-o-meter can't stomach (Like, \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum\"). :p

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ May 19 2002,8:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, I came over here to check out the t.v. comments. I don't forbid tv from my kids, but I find that they don't usually choose to watch it. I suppose more sneaking would be going on if it were a forbidden activity. Do your kids friends have tv? Do you think they watch it at other's houses? Even if I did forbid it, I'm not sure how I would handle the issue of watching while away from home.
terry[/quote]
Terry,

Again, we are protecting our home against TV and advertising not our son against TV. My son will watch TV if it is there. He is not allowed to play with friends unsupervised. So, only rarely is he at a friends house and then only if a parent that I know very well is supervising full-time. Most of the time, his friends are in our home. They listen to music, play legos, and play basketball. Some of his friends are no TV kids, and they play together best with no complaints about being bored.

[Bill]

Thanks to all who have posted here.  If everyone could have the same attitude on other threads we would all truely be blessed.  You guys have made me want to carry over this attitude to areas where I may disagree with what is being posted.  Laying out our thoughts without being disagreeable is the Christ-like way to go.  Each of you have layed out some good thoughts.

[Jeff]

We had the same experience as the man who was offered television sets.  A few years ago I was working exclusively \"graveyard\" shifts and we decided to become a one car family for a period of time.  We had a great neighborhood and felt that, in the event of an emergency that occurred while I had the car at work in the wee hours of the morning, we could call on a neighbor to help.  We were not in financial straits, but thought this would be a step in the direction of financial prudence. Why pay for the maintenance and licensing of something you don't need?

You'd have thought we were rebelling against the entire middle class American way of life  :D  Several people (mostly from church) offered us the use of their cars, and they seemingly could not understand why we were making this decision (there were even questions about what they could do to help us financially!)  Eventually I relented and allowed a friend to \"store\" his third car in our garage with the understanding I could use it as I needed.

We live in a funny, funny culture.   \"No TV?  Only one car?  You are wierd....\"

[janine]

We have a little TV (14\"? 13\"?) with a built-in VCR in the bottom.  We pay about $7 per month for basic cable so we can have flawless reception when we do finally sit down to watch it.  

I have a handful of movies I love, and will watch if they turn up on a channel I can get.  We put the a.m. news on & everyone listens to get some info & keep track of time, from about 5 a.m. to 5:45, when I usually leave with my husband to drop him at work if I need the car.  (We actually have three cars, but it takes three to make sure at least one of our junkers is always working.  We paid $250 for it, and have received over $1000 in insurance money from the poor ugly thing getting [cosmetically] totalled!)

Since everyone always has something \"going\", with church or school activities, homework, a scramble to prepare for the next day & get to bed, something, we don't vegetate in front of the 'boob toob' too much.  We spend as much time just talking and laughing, or singing together in the car, as we do watching TV.

Still, the occasional show will pop up that features content vile enough to make Mike get up & turn it off. :0

I actually think more artistry and thought goes into some of the commercials than many of the TV shows. :D

[patriciaredstone]

A friend of mine has a good plan for television watching. Every week the family reviews the television schedule and each child can choose three programs per week. They highlight these programs in the book and even put them on the calendar. Each child is allowed to watch the programs of the others if they want, but they are not allowed to alter their own choices until the next week -- of course they can opt out for other activities. So no one will be watching more than nine programs a week. She sticks to this plan even when they are sick or have out of town guests. Her thought is that television should be a scheduled activity. As a result, her children often neglect the television for special classes and sports activites at the Y. The attraction of TV is that is is always there. If you remove that aspect of the attraction, it is just another thing to do....

[patriciaredstone]

I would like to explore the \"limiting leads to obcessive behavior\" idea a bit. I'm sure that most of us teach abstinance from liquor, smoking, sex and other socially acceptable behaviours. Do you believe that your child will respond in rebelliion to these things? If so, why do you continue to teach abstinance? Is teaching abstinance a lost cause? Is it better for a parent to teach a child to be moderate with things the parent percieves to be harmful for the child in order to avoid the psycological pendulum swing into obcession and rebellion?

Of course no-TV at home children (of course it is impossible to avoid television in the world, no one here, as far as I can tell, is even pursuing that as a possiblity. We are talking about protecting our homes from television.) usually go through a period of uncontrolled and obcessive viewing (at least by adult standards) but, overwhelmingly, these children come out in the end as a no-TV or at least limited TV parent ... just like many children who, for a period of time, try drugs, alcohol, tobacco and pre-marital sex before choosing their parents model.

There are many good, intelligent, spiritual people who teach their children to practice abstinance from an assortment of culturally accepted things ... credit cards, enlistment in the military, piercing of the skin and dying of the hair, jewelry and make-up, pants on women, long hair on men ... not to mention the many ascetic rules of the Mennonites and Amish. Do you think these family rules hurt the child more than help her/him in the spiritual life? Confuse them? Anger them? Are unfair?

Thanks! I am looking forward to your responses!

This is very interesting.  I suppose I see a difference between abstinence (or limitation) because \"this is what might happen . . . \" and abstinence just because.  Sometimes we go from \"because I said so\" to \"because God said so\" without leading the kids to understand why I (or God) say.

For example, I was thirty years old before I understood why God means sex to be kept between husband and wife.  I was pregnant and home on bedrest with nothing to do but lie on my left side and watch tv--talk show tv.  Someone was talking about meeting the illegitimate half-brother his dad fathered during his marriage, etc, etc.  Everyone was so hurt, and it just came to me \"so He did know what He was doing!\"

On the other hand, my husband does believe that forbidding something can make it way too attractive.  Even though we're both strong believers in gun control (I know, there's probably not a lot of us Democrats on these boards), he does occasionally let the kids see and fire my dad's guns, under strict supervision, when we're at my folks' farm.

Actually, now that I think more about it, maybe its more a matter of information and honesty, and less a matter of abstinence or moderation.

K.

[patriciaredstone]

Great responses!

It is good to keep company with people who put so much thought into the art and lifestyle of parenting.

Seeker and Susieface feel that children should see their parents struggle. I agree. I think it is a gift to a child to see the parents pain and to learn from their struggles -- used responsibly, this kind of disclosure can be so good and healing for children at all levels of development.

An aside on room cleaning: My sister, who raised a boy and a girl -- did not allow her children to have friends over for a visit or to leave the house on Saturday unless the room passed inspection. This gave them some liberty ... and some motivation. If they wanted to live in a messy room ... alone... that was their business. On the other hand, if they wanted a social life, they would have to rearrange their priorities. It worked! And, so far, it has been very successful with my son. The room is almost always clean on Friday night!

I love Janine's post! Parenting IS a balancing act. If we remain \"centered\" in the Spirit, we will gain stability ... and faith, hope and love are right there in the center. I love my child enough to set limits. Remaining faithful to that love will help me to return time and time again to those boundery lines and inspect them, that they are not deteriorating, or to stretch them out if they have become too constricting. And hope is a partner in this struggle between stability and growth. One of my son's best friends worships Krishna and his family is vegetarian, but when Atma asked his mother if he could eat a hotdog at my son's party (I had tofu pups on the grill too, but Atma wanted the forbidden kosher beef pups ...) his mother consented with the understanding that this was to satisfy his curiosity. If we guard our children with the intent to keep them from experience, they will not grow. But, to achieve the experience necessary for growth, we don't have to buy a freezer and stock it with Hebrew National kosher franks...  ;)

[janine]

So I guess Atma's mom was looking at their family devotion to Krishna, and their lifestyle's distinctiveness, with the vegetarianism and all, as a sort of flow or flavor, a lifetime's focus and attention to honoring the world, really, by not eating its denizens... rather than as a checklist sort of thing, which Atma has now violated, poor boy, he's all vile and unclean and beef-i-ated, ick...

[patriciaredstone]

My testimony:

We, reluctantly, gave up televison when our son turned 3. We had him in our home for only a few days when we noticed that he could not hear us when the television was on ... even when the volume was turned off. It was almost hypnotic. We think this was due to living in a foster-care home with little stimulation other than The Set.

This temporary \"no television\" move has lasted for many years now. Our son is 13 and is still mesmerised ... hypnotised by television. In truth, there is really no such thing as a \"no television\" family in our culture. TV is everywhere. At the Walmart, at the restaurants, at the Dairly Queen, in Grandma and Grandpa's RV (complete with a satilite dish) and even at church. So, when we say \"no TV\" we mean that our home does not have a TV, not that our son never sees TV. Believe me, he knows EVERYTHING about TV. He is like a walking TV Guide. He even sings jingles I have never heard. TV is like pollenization, you can't avoid it.

Having no TV in our home means that at least 45 times a day, I do not have to say, \"No.\" Whether one can or cannot watch is a non-issue. That alone, is worth a lot to me.

Having no TV in our home means that we have more control over what enters and what does not enter our lives. We are protective of our only true space ... our home. We do not like advertising. So, our home does not have any magazines that advertise, we do not take a newspaper, no radio (other than Car-Talk on NPR) We prefer to play sports than to watch them (tennis, swimming, basketball, ai ki do) but when we do watch, there are pleanty of playing fields and courts within walking distance. Since my husband is a director of Information Technology, he knows how to prevent advertising from coming up on my computer even though I do quite a bit of internet shopping. My son is only now beginning -- with supervision -- to use the internet.

Since our son turned 13, we have begun to watch DVDs at home and, occasionally, go to the movies. Two blocks from our home we can rent -- for 50 cents -- DVDs of old Hitchcock and Pink Panther and Monte Python movies (his favorites!). Right now we are watching \"The Kennedy's,\" a special which was produced for The History Channel. I have noticed that the library has many of the education-type channels specials and popular television series on DVD. That way, we can watch the best of television programming without the commercials.

The benefits of not having a television in our home are endless. We don't have time for a TV!

We see plays, opera, concerts ... People always remark about how our son is so attentive, \"like a little adult\" at these events. He is like that, because he goes. When he was three we had to write letters and have meetings with directors and stage mangagers to get special permission for him to attend their productions. Once, a clarinet soloist sent the stage manager to the front row to tell me that she would not take the stage until my son (6) left the auditorium because \"she does not perform for children.\" I refused. The stage manager came out with another message asking us to move to the back row. We did. As usual, my son was more attentive than most of the adults. The next day my son recieved a personal phone call from the musician asking his forgiveness. I am now an activist for \"family-friendly\" seating in theatres.

We learned from our artist friends with children, that if you introduce your children to quality performances at an early age, they do not rebel against classical music and plays later in life. Our son begs us to take him to see his favorite Shakespere plays and he sings opera and classical music and plays the violin. Also, children who are kept away from television develop better taste in art, music, poetry and dance.

We admit that when he leaves home he will most likely spend his first year \"vegging out\" in front of the TV in his dorm or apartment ... taking in the forbidden fruit ... trying to figure out what he missed out on ... but that is a small price to pay for the benefits of not having TV during his crucial years of development. NPR had a story about children who were raised without TV. Most of them had a period of indulgence followed by partial or total rejection of the tube. I think that is the road he will take.

[seekr]

Everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial. As much as I dislike some of the things going on in our world, and TV is just a reflection of that, and the fact that we don't really watch it, except for movies--I still would rather not take too harsh a stance over viewing TV. And what goes into a man does not make him unclean. If we as parents, teach our children truth and love for God and others, and that includes protecting them from some things, although I trust's God's protection so much more--then the \"evil\" does not really come from without, as there is no way around it, no matter how stringent OUR protection is--(ramble, ramble)but I'm also not saying throw them to the wolves, but I still question my own stance as me trying to do what I think, when God can and does use everything for good. My life needs to reflect God's goodness, but not because I'm good, but because I have a desire to be like Him. If our best is as filthy rags before Him...then it still boils down to how loving we are, which does include teaching our children to make wise choices--which may or may not be by trying to place them in a bubble(it doesn't work anyway). I know God has taken all my dysfunction and sin and turned it into something to be used for Him. The Israelites while in slavery were surrounded with idol worship, evil, corruption, selfishness, and it became part of their lifestyle, which was why they turned to idolatry so quickly, and yet they were God's people, called out to serve Him. God sees our tendency to idolize and mess up--His grace gave us a chance to be clean, while still being so unclean. If i threw everything worldly out (and where do we draw the line?) it still wouldn't be what could teach my children about God's love. I know I'm really rambling with this one, but it's sort of like thinking out loud and I believe my only trust can be in Him and His love for me and mine. Television is not the evil and trying to control the flesh only works by leaning into God not by any do's or dont's. Boy, if you figure out what I've just said...please tell me.

seekr

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ May 20 2002,09:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Seekr,
Very well put. You said much of what I was thinking. I have noticed with my kids that if I make something an issue, than it becomes a huge issue indeed. I do not believe in raising kids in a bubble either. I have a friend whose son is forbidden from Nintendo, tv, gameboys etc... and when he comes to our house he goes crazy. He won't even pay attention to the other kids at all. Here they are allowed to do this stuff, and all they want to do is play with a $2 ball outside 16 hours a day. He is forbidden, so when he is around tv he can't control himself. When my kids do watch, of course I am around to see what is being watched. If something seems inappropriate we talk about why it is inappropriate and about making another choice. It is an opportunity to show how subtle Satan is  and how he uses everything around us he can to cause us trouble. My oldest son is in Jr. High and this is working well with him. He is turning out to be a very fine Christian man who also performs well in school, sports, music, and is good to those around him. I just find that for us it works out better if I give a certain amount of freedom, but constantly teach decision making within that freedom.
take care,
terry[/quote]
I agree that often we make things worse by reacting against it in an irrational way. I see this in our youth group with the constant warnings about keeping oneself \"pure\" of sexual corruption. My son was introduced to the idea of homosexuality and adultery, oral sex and masturbation in youth group!!!! In order to press our feelings and opinions about these things we have to draw attention to them. We simply don't have a TV. We don't preach No-TV to our child. We simply protect his home-environment from the influence of television.

When he is in a high-techno environment he does sometimes spin out of control. He is not desensitised by the sythetic stimulus that is carefully designed to spin human-beings out of control. But just like your boys, he is less and less impressed by these expensive, over-marketed toys each time he plays ...

Patricia:

Good thoughts all, and thank you.  Thanks again for bringing up this thread as it really hits home.  Your point about attending local sporting events is a good one, but brings up another issue:  schedule!  I'd love to attend more local events, but there just aren't that many nights in the week.  

Tomorrow night Greater Atlanta Christian School presents its spring band concert and I've enjoyed fellowship with the band director, who is a member of our congregation.  I'm the only one of the six of us who really wants to go (and we actually have the night available!) and have been trying all weekend to cajole one of my kids into going with me!  :(   I did talk my oldest into going to a local college jazz band concert a year or two ago and I think he enjoyed it in spite of himself!

Your point about the DVDs/VHS is intriguing, as we're finding that the younger kids have now seen all the episodes of their favorite syndicated programs anyway.  Fortunately we've had some unseasonably cool weather here the last couple days, so in the post-dinner hour tonight the younger three and I had a spirited basketball game out on the driveway, but that will be more difficult to enjoy when the muggy weather returns for the rest of the summer.

I appreciate your comments and the spirit in which they have been given.   I need to be challenged and inspired and who better to do that than my brothers and sisters in the Lord?!

[patriciaredstone]

I hope it works out well for you! Studies show that children will meet or exceed their parents viewing habits. So even if you and your wife choose to stop watching, it will have long-lasting effects. Also, your children are old enough to understand the value debate of television vs. reading. My son was amused to see commercials on children's programming to promote reading over TV. He noted how the tenor of the ads made reading feel like a moral duty ... not fun at all, but an obligation.

I read a very funny article by a journalist who decided to get rid of the television, but dishonestly. He sabotaged the electrical connection, and told his young children the set broke and they could not afford to buy another. Within two weeks the family had been offered over a dozen TV's with some people even bringing a brand new TV to the door! He decided that this strategy could work to start up a small used television enterprise...

Thank you for sharing your success with the fast-food strategy! This is a wonderful way to involve our son more directly (and sacrifically) in benevolent giving. We could feed a small third world country on what we spend on Flaming Hot Cheetos...   :(

[marc]

Hmmmm. . . .I'd been avoiding this thread because I have no kids (and thus no particular interest in home schooling), but this has made me think about the role television played when I was growing up.

I grew up in the country, in a place where we could get two channels semi-clearly on our antenna and one a bit less clearly.  The television was usually on when I was inside (which tended to be when the weather kept me inside).  But I learned to read by the time I was three.  My grandmother and mother taught me using Dr. Seuss books, and encouraged me to keep learning.  In a way, I was home-schooled.  I was taught more before I started school than many kids were taught all the way through grade school.  I was given book after book, taught the planets, the constellations, the names of the trees around me, the names of the presidents and so many other things.  

Yet television was always there--and seemed to be a positive presence.  Captain Kangaroo read to me, and I followed along. Even before I could read, I could identify many letters and words because they ran across the tv during commercials while the announcer said these words.

Television did bring negative influences in, even then.  Reports from Vietnam made me afraid to go to Charleston, where the news was coming from.  And the SF shows I watched gave me nightmares (but I'm not convinced nightmares are always a bad thing).

Just some random thoughts.  I guess I'm still not convinced that television is necessarily evil.  I think much depends on how it is used, and whether it is allowed to dominate our lives.

[terry]

kmv,
Sorry I'm just getting back to you. It's been crazy with the holiday. I suppose that I'm lucky that sitcoms haven't been a real issue with us. Cable keeps us away from the big three networks which have so much bad programming. My kids like Cartoonnetwork as well. My oldest son had a fixation with the Simpsons for a while. Even though I think they can be really funny, I found it was usually inappropriate for him. I just made sure we were out of the house when this show was on ;) My boys also want to watch WWF but I have had to strictly forbid this. After watching this with them I decided it was completely off limits. This is the only thing that I have had to really come down hard on :angry: Usually my kids would rather be at the park, outside eating ice cream, or just playing outside. Mostly I think that if you ban an activity you need to be ready to offer a viable alternative. In my experience this has been the case.
take care,
terry

[susieface]

I have mixed feelings about TV.  On one hand I think it is mostly junk and sinful.  We have nicklelodeon on a lot during the day(5 year old), but we try to limit the sitcoms. We are big 7th Heaven fans.  We are more into movies at our house, which we have to be real careful with.  We have a 5 yr old, 13 yr old, and 17 yr old.  So it is hard to find shows appropiate for all.  
On the other hand, I feel if you limit certain shows, a parent is just making a child want to see it more.  I feel this way because many of my friends children who were limited strictly are like nuts now about certain things in their life.  Way to hung up on sex shows, just seem to gravitate to it.  The ones with a more balanced viewing aren't this way.  Always remember they will be watching at their friends houses and my guess is they will not come home and tell you about it. I do not believe we should let them watch anything, which leaves out many sitcoms, but some shows with a small amount of spiritual wrongness can be used as a teaching tool. It is a hard balance to keep.  Of course some shows just definitely have to be taboo.
My husband makes sure we have sports on all the time.
Susie

[seekr]

Another thing too, is the consequences of their actions is a great teacher. They sometimes come from us but the world also brings a lot of it about. As much as I'd like to protect them, I try to not get in the way of what they need to go through. I guess my greatest frustration is when they show no remorse. That is something to be worked out in their lives and my prayer for them. We all stumble but if we live in denial that is detrimental. I have watched pain create good results in my children and it has allowed them to see God at work. God does give us all wisdom when we ask.

seekr

[susieface]

This is a difficult subject for me as I am just getting my feet wet on the teen issues.  I do not think I will ever have the answers.  I do believe being raised by strict Bible standards is the best route, but I also think it makes a teenager more curious about things such as smoking, drugs, and alcohol.  When they are not seeing the harm all this can cause in their own homes(thank  you God) they become curious when they are around friends who are experimenting.  I feel kids will follow the parents pattern in the long run, but not as a teenager when they are trying to figure out who they are and test us along with God.  
I admit I am a strict parent and do plenty of preaching along with begging my 17 yr. old and 13 yr. old to not start junk that could mess up their lives or soul.  My husband is a better witness to this than I am and I think thAt helps.  My husband although a christian went through a bad period when he was younger with the whole partying scene.  He holds nothing back and tells it like it is.  I think kids need real examples of this to help them in making a decision to try or not to try something.

I have learned to chose my battles. Some of the things I spent so much time sweating over when he was little was just stupid. We are a little different with our 5 yr. old than our oldest 2 in this respect.  Trying to teach those things that really matter and let them be kids in other areas. Grounding over a messy room was just plain dumb!!  Now I just shut the door.  I did this grounding thing with my oldest 2 and now one is a neat freak and the other a slob, so I decided it doesn't matter.
In the long run, I think it just depends on the childs personality.  But more than likely, they will do some of the same things the parents did at that age.  But to think your child will never do some of these things(partying, ec.) is being in the dark.  
I do teach abstinance and not moderation on the big issues, but TV falls into the moderation category.  What a child does has more to do with friends than anything than see on TV. I am not advocating all TV programs or movies(common sense here), but for me this falls into the chose your battles category.
Susie

[patriciaredstone]

Yes! I think that says it, Janine. \"Flow and flavor\" or \"distinctivness\" as you say, can infuse a child with a sense of family and belonging ... a peculiar people need peculiarities! I think it is most healthy when these identifying factors evolve naturally within the context of faith, hope and love. Children feel cared for and protected when they have these identifying rules specific to their homelife.

[Jeff]

Wow, what a great example!  Thanks for sharing specifics.  This is an item we have fought, and fought poorly, over the years.  I guess it starts from the top:  I love watching sports on television and my youngest (9) is my \"football watching buddy.\"  We have had some great times on the couch together on Saturday and Sunday afternoons watching college and NFL games, but we both grow weary of the ads.

My three youngest like a little veg-out time right before dinner watching Miller-Boyett productions (Full House, Family Ties...) that are in syndication from 5:00-6:00.  Then there are also the Stooges at 7:30-8:00.  My oldest (15) has his programs that he enjoys (three or four a week) and we have to be really, really conscious of the content.  Sometimes I get involved in the plot or the series as well and have to take a step back and determine if the morality and violence \"levels\" are acceptable (that I'm having to think about it that much at all is probably a red flag!)  

My wife likes having access to CNN, FoxNews and The Weather Channel and usually watches the local news every night.  She's definitely the most disciplined of the six of us where the TV is concerned, but will occasionally flop down on the couch with the kids after a long day and laugh along with one of the previously mentioned programs.  Whew. Old habits die hard.  I commend you for training your son from a young age (do you have other children?)

I'll have to differ with you on the newspaper and the magazines.  I don't think any of the kids have ever come to us with ads from magazines screaming, \"I wanna, I wanna\"  :D  and I think having kids' magazines around fosters their reading habit.  I'm even thinking of subscribing to The Sporting News this fall so my little guy and I can keep up with sports stuff together.  My wife and I both subscribe to a couple magazines as well.  The local newspaper is a great asset (again for reading purposes) and since it's local there are occasionally articles about local happenings we wouldn't have known about and articles about kids from our church that we'll run across.

Thanks for bringing up this thread -- you definitely touched a hot spot for me.  I've threatened to cancel the cable and keep the TV in off mode for awhile but there iis a strong tide against which I'd be swimming now.

[terry]

Seekr,
Very well put. You said much of what I was thinking. I have noticed with my kids that if I make something an issue, than it becomes a huge issue indeed. I do not believe in raising kids in a bubble either. I have a friend whose son is forbidden from Nintendo, tv, gameboys etc... and when he comes to our house he goes crazy. He won't even pay attention to the other kids at all. Here they are allowed to do this stuff, and all they want to do is play with a $2 ball outside 16 hours a day. He is forbidden, so when he is around tv he can't control himself. When my kids do watch, of course I am around to see what is being watched. If something seems inappropriate we talk about why it is inappropriate and about making another choice. It is an opportunity to show how subtle Satan is  and how he uses everything around us he can to cause us trouble. My oldest son is in Jr. High and this is working well with him. He is turning out to be a very fine Christian man who also performs well in school, sports, music, and is good to those around him. I just find that for us it works out better if I give a certain amount of freedom, but constantly teach decision making within that freedom.
take care,
terry

[seekr]

One of the main reasons we do not have television is because we would have to have cable to get any stations--and a few years ago, i did that, and could not stand even some of the basic stations on it for what they offered and what could be viewed, so I still do make decisions in that area, and feel a certain amount of freedom from not having it, but it does not change my children's choices as all the outside influences still try to destroy them. We do tend to bond a little more as we play card and board games and make other choices, but I also love some of what we glean from movies, when I rent them or buy them. I find God using some of the movies for making points on relationship with others and there are some great messages. Of course there are a few \"oops\" involved, but even that is a point of discussion. Music choices in my home are more difficult than TV viewing. I'm dealing with 5 differing personalitites and try to just \"aim\" them in a healthier direction, although my 16 year old boy in a band brings some music in my home that I will not tolerate. I'm still not sure where to draw lines, because I am a rock and roller at heart. I love a lot of the kids Christain rock, such as Audio Adrenaline (great writing in their music) and some of the other rock music I hear. (remember I worked at a rink for 2 years)A good thing, though is that my son loves to share his music with me and reads me lyrics, even if I get appalled at it. Because I have liked some of the same stuff, he feels he has to find some that will shock or sound awful to me as he is searching his own identity, but approaches it in a mode of wanting me to be a part of him and needs my input. Our sense of humor has bonded us most of all with each other's perceptions and lots of love and freedom for most choices.

Maurine

[Jeff]

Heh, heh, heh.  We did this a couple summers ago, but with a different item.  I felt that we were eating out a lot and the kids were beginning to expect that activity as a right and not a privilege, and really didn't understand the financial aspects of this.  During the boys' soccer season we find ourselves hitting the fast and not-so-fast food places more frequently, but what bothered me was the whining that I was getting about going out to eat more, more, more and the lack of gratitude for the great meals my wife was preparing.

What we did was designated a \"no eating out\" week and took the money we would have spent eating out (I can't remember if it was two or three meals) and added it to our normal contribution to the child we support through World Vision.  When the children saw the bills going into the jar for \"Petras\" it helped them identify the cost of going out to eat so much.
My wife's idea this summer is to allow a 1-for-1 ratio of reading with TV viewing.  That kind of connotes that reading is not as much fun as TV, but I think they have that perspective already.

I printed out your initial comments for my wife to view and we are going to work on weaning ourselves and our children from the Big Box!

[seekr]

Terry, with people, like your relatives, I don't believe that tv is the culprit, but a symptom of something within. If it wasn't tv, it would be something else. I guess that is why I don't look at the \"outside\" but what would motivate someone to be in that particular place in their life. And i know that because each of us is different, what may affect one person one way, may not affect the other. With some it is not a weakness to view tv, yet it would be with someone else because of who they are.

And Jeff, how blessed you are to have found such concern from others in your life. I do not see that in my area. If you're without, you stay without, even if it means you go hungry.

seekr

[patriciaredstone]

Jeff,

Wow! We do have a lot in common ... we, too, are a one-car family. My husband works only a four blocks away and, since it never rains in California, he walks to work. On the days that California turns into one of those other 49 states, and rain falls in buckets, I drive him to work. We have managed to do all of the things we want to do with one car -- with no problems -- for five years. We have saved thousands of dollars. Also, by buying very good used cars and driving them till they drop, we have been able to afford to own our home. Our old Land Cruiser has over 200,000 miles and, God bless it, keeps on going! We have friends with much higher income than us who are always trying to get more income \"just to live\". But they buy new cars, wear the right watch, have a housekeeper, keep membership at health clubs they almost never use, send their children to expensive private schools, have their nails done, their dogs groomed, TV's in every room ...

This has been a very interesting topic; I've found everyone's comments to be surprisingly polite and helpful.  This subject usually pushes folks hot buttons!  

Would those parents who do allow tv share practical advice on how they control/supervise their kids' viewing?  

For example, we've had to completely ban sitcoms for several years (although my husband and I do catch Frasier after the news).  I read a year or two ago that something like 80% of episodes, not series, contained inappropriate sexual behavior!  

We stick with the animal/discovery type shows, and some CartoonNetwork.  I admit it, I love the Acme Hour.  And for some odd reason, my kids are hooked on . . . Food TV network.  It started with Iron Chef, then Good Eats; my ten-year-old son's hero is Bobby Flay.

We sometimes have a problem with my daughter.  She's way too fashion-aware.  If I weaken and let her have more than just a little Disney channel, I definitely regret it.

What do the rest of you do?

The tv guide idea is a great one-except that we'll have to keep up with the tv section for an entire week!  

Terry, thanks for owning up to Cartoonetwork.  I sometimes feel a little guilty about enjoying the 'lowbrow' entertainment.

A co-worker was telling me a while back about the trouble she was having with her little boy and his aggression problems.  Right after she finished telling me about how much he liked the Smackdown show.  

One other thing I do with my kids-all screen time (tv, computer, video games) counts toward their limit.  And the computer and tv stay in the living room where we can supervise.

[terry]

Patricia,
I want to answer your question, but I'm having a difficult time concentrating long enough to give an answer (due to a toddler). First, I agree with Seekr in that liberty in Christ is what I teach my kids as well. I ask them to think about whether or not their actions would be hurtful to Jesus, how would their discipleship be effected...
I think on some of the things you mentioned (alcohol, smoking) we have state laws governing the use of these things. I teach my kids that while they are goverened by these laws they must follow these laws. When they are adults, they will have to make their own decisions. I do not see smoking as something that will send you to hell, it will only make you smell like you've been there ;) so I teach my kids about this from a health perspective. I have a strong family history of alcoholism (we are native american and Irish) so my kids have been warned that there is a strong genetic predisposition towards alcoholism. I don't believe that drinking moderately is a sin, but there is the potential of becoming a drunk which is a sin. Also, our society does not usually practice moderate drinking (at home, with meals, weddings) as much as alcohol is used for all our partying and binge drinking. I'm very honest with my kids about this, but again the decision will be theirs when they are adults. Until then I own the air they breathe and we don't break civil laws in our home.
On sex, I don't see where this can be a moderation issue. Either you do or don't commit fornication. God is very clear on this and Paul explains how the whole church and Christ goes with you into sexual sins. So I teach abstinence. My kids know that I will not hand out condoms nor pay for an abortion (I'm staunchly prolife). However, when they fall, I will be there to teach them that Jesus forgives those who call upon him and they can always call home home.
As far as the other things you mentioned (credit cards, military) I believe that families need to do what is best for themselves. My personal opinion though is the less you give them to rebel over, the less they will rebel. I guess you could say I choose my  battles carefully.
take care,
terry

[janine]

You don't throw tender flesh to the lions.

That's where we circle around the 'control/freedom', 'abstinence/looseness', 'grace/law' buffet.

Of course you shoot for honesty, information, etc.  And of course the roost is ruled by the parents, with some freedoms stifled...

It's all a balancing act, a two-sided coin, a leaning on the Lord, on the Word, on the Spirit.  You don't protect from any/all consequences, but there are times you may, because how often did God step in and keep you from dying from some stupid decision in your youth?

Good thread, folks.

[socrmom]

This has been a great thread folks!!  I have had almost no time for the computer, or much else, since the kids have come home from school.  Hurray!! (Now we all get to play!)

I really like what Terry said about children needing to learn to make decisions based on how those decisions will affect their relationship with God. ( I think that is what she was saying.)  Education, honesty and perspective all go into this.  I hope that when my child is faced with choices, that his decisions are made not because of what I say, or because of rigid rules and authoritarian consequences, but because of the values ingrained that become interpreted through many different situations.  I believe this means that we raise our children to be thinkers.  And to be able to crictically think over a situation means that we have given opportunities to work through decisions while we are guiding them.  (Such as what is watched on TV)  I cannot comprehend the choices and decisions that may be faced when my 8 year old is in high school.  I hope that he chooses to remain in the flavor and flow of living in God's grace, and honoring that gift of grace with a lifestyle that glorifies the God that gave it to him.  
Such high hopes for my children.  Is this realistic, with me, as such an imperfect parent?  With the grace of God I go.

[terry]

Well, I came over here to check out the t.v. comments. I don't forbid tv from my kids, but I find that they don't usually choose to watch it. I suppose more sneaking would be going on if it were a forbidden activity. Do your kids friends have tv? Do you think they watch it at other's houses? Even if I did forbid it, I'm not sure how I would handle the issue of watching while away from home.
terry

[patriciaredstone]

Jeff,

I'm sure that you are familiar with the odd dynamic of others responding defensively --- as if your own actions are directly targeted into their personal life --- when you explain that you homeschool your children. I have a double-whammy in that we homeschool and don't have a TV. I know that there are good things on TV and good reasons to watch TV just as I know that there are good reasons to go to a public or private school. I am all for freedom of choice. I recognise that parents -- more than anyone else -- know what their children need. I don't usually \"preach\" no-TV because -- more than homeschooling -- it seems to offend ... and interestingly (fascinatingingly!) a no-TV message seems to offend Christians more than non-Christians. So, no judgement from me about your use of the tube. My testimony is a general one ... and specific to my experience of raising a child with issues -- anxiety disorder from a difficult first 3 years and giftedness). So my responses that will follow your comments are universal in nature, not directed to you personally.

Jeff[[This is an item we have fought, and fought poorly, over the years.  I guess it starts from the top:  I love watching sports on television and my youngest (9) is my \"football watching buddy.\"  We have had some great times on the couch together on Saturday and Sunday afternoons watching college and NFL games, but we both grow weary of the ads.]]

Attending actual sports events -- even local junior-high and high-school -- supports team-members rather than supporting than big-name advertisers. It also fosters a sense of community in children, because they are interacting with the players and their parents. Live sports are more exciting and offer more of an opportunity to learn ... even if they are not \"pro\" level. Two of our local high-school baseball players went off to join the big league! We can say that we knew them when ...

Jeff [[My three youngest like a little veg-out time right before dinner watching Miller-Boyett productions (Full House, Family Ties...) that are in syndication from 5:00-6:00.  Then there are also the Stooges at 7:30-8:00.  My oldest (15) has his programs that he enjoys (three or four a week)]]

Consider that almost all of these programs you mention are available or will be available soon on DVD at your library. Several of us no-TV families went to our librarian with a request for them to stock up, and they have gone far beyond our wildest dreams! My son loves the 3 Stooges too, and Charlie Chaplain, so we attend a local five-night free film event in the summer. A barge sets up a large silver screen at a park on the bay. We bring our chairs and a bar-b-que. A local symphony orchestra plays the original music to the movie cues! It is fabulous! No-TV families know what is going on! Also, there is a four-week Festival of Animation at a local museum where we see the latest-breaking cartoons before they are on the TV or at the movies.

Jeff [[ and we have to be really, really conscious of the content.  Sometimes I get involved in the plot or the series as well and have to take a step back and determine if the morality and violence \"levels\" are acceptable (that I'm having to think about it that much at all is probably a red flag!) ]]

Yes! This goes for anything you see ... including billboards. I think it is good for your children to see you struggle with \"the world.\" If they can see how you, too, are \"pulled in\", and then see you explain your struggle, they will be more discerning.

Jeff [[ My wife likes having access to CNN, FoxNews and The Weather Channel and usually watches the local news every night.  She's definitely the most disciplined of the six of us where the TV is concerned, but will occasionally flop down on the couch with the kids after a long day and laugh along with one of the previously mentioned programs.  Whew. Old habits die hard. ]]

Men are usually the ones who put in the final \"no\" when it comes to getting rid of the TV, but in our family, it was the opposite. I was the TV junkie .... everything from morning programming, I Love Lucy, to CNN ... But now, I wouldn't go back for anything! I tell my husband I can catch up on everything I missed in the rest home!

Jeff [[ I commend you for training your son from a young age (do you have other children?)]]

No. No other children. And this one came along after we had been married for seventeen years!

Jeff [[ I'll have to differ with you on the newspaper and the magazines.  I don't think any of the kids have ever come to us with ads from magazines screaming, \"I wanna, I wanna\"    and I think having kids' magazines around fosters their reading habit.  I'm even thinking of subscribing to The Sporting News this fall so my little guy and I can keep up with sports stuff together. ]]

No-TV children are actually more vulnerable to print advertising than TV children. My son takes Muse and Cricket, both have a minimum of advertising and are designed for children. I think they are worth the subscription price. My husband and I take a couple of fringe magazines that have a minimum of advertising. But we like to go to the library and read \"the stands\" once a week. There -- but not in our home (again I am protecting our space, not our child, against the world) he can read skateboarding, gun, muscle-building, dog magazines ... anything that strikes his fancy. And I can read the LA, NY and local papers.

Jeff[[Thanks for bringing up this thread -- you definitely touched a hot spot for me.  I've threatened to cancel the cable ]]

Oh Yes! I forgot the benefits of the cash! Subtract the cable, the TV guide, the set, the repairs ... And we have a small fortune  :D

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ May 19 2002,11:01)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial. As much as I dislike some of the things going on in our world, and TV is just a reflection of that, and the fact that we don't really watch it, except for movies--I still would rather not take too harsh a stance over viewing TV. And what goes into a man does not make him unclean. If we as parents, teach our children truth and love for God and others, and that includes protecting them from some things, although I trust's God's protection so much more--then the \"evil\" does not really come from without, as there is no way around it, no matter how stringent OUR protection is--(ramble, ramble)but I'm also not saying throw them to the wolves, but I still question my own stance as me trying to do what I think, when God can and does use everything for good. My life needs to reflect God's goodness, but not because I'm good, but because I have a desire to be like Him. If our best is as filthy rags before Him...then it still boils down to how loving we are, which does include teaching our children to make wise choices--which may or may not be by trying to place them in a bubble(it doesn't work anyway). I know God has taken all my dysfunction and sin and turned it into something to be used for Him. The Israelites while in slavery were surrounded with idol worship, evil, corruption, selfishness, and it became part of their lifestyle, which was why they turned to idolatry so quickly, and yet they were God's people, called out to serve Him. God sees our tendency to idolize and mess up--His grace gave us a chance to be clean, while still being so unclean. If i threw everything worldly out (and where do we draw the line?) it still wouldn't be what could teach my children about God's love. I know I'm really rambling with this one, but it's sort of like thinking out loud and I believe my only trust can be in Him and His love for me and mine. Television is not the evil and trying to control the flesh only works by leaning into God not by any do's or dont's. Boy, if you figure out what I've just said...please tell me.

seekr[/quote]
Seeker,

You are right, \"TV is just a reflection of our world.\" It is important to note that TV is not my reflection of our world or perhaps even your reflection of our world, but \"a\" reflection of our world. That reflection is being carefully constructed by people that you probably share little with in your world view.

I have close connections to the movie and television industry. I know big-time producers, and a very famous television actress is my best friend. Even these people keep their children protected from the influence of TV because they know how limited is the world-view of that industry.

Most of the no-TV people I know are not Christian. They are interested in the development of the mind, and they find that television -- despite occasional, and notable departures --  is not a partner in their intellectual goals.

I do not believe that television is an accurate or even realistic reflection of our culture. I think the perspective it gives of our culture is -- most of the time -- damaging to our culture.