One Entrance into the One Kingdom

[Sherman Nobles]

Sherman,

Nowhere do we read of "getting saved" in the bible.  Using biblical terms and concepts , I was added to the church (acts 2:41,27) when I was properly baptized, acts 2:38, acts 22:16, 1 peter 3:21.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph.2.8-9).  So if you have not been saved, is it because you believe the grace of God is not sufficient or because you do not have faith in the grace of God?

[Jaime]

Baptism is a means of this grace and supernaturally cleanses us from the filth of sin and helps deliver us from demonic oppression (if we're oppressed), but we are saved when we receive Jesus by faith and repentance, turning from our doubt and unbelief and putting our trust in the saving work of Jesus.  Just like the children of Israel were saved when they put their trust in Moses their savior, in the same way we are saved when we receive Jesus and put our trust in Him.  And when we trust Him and follow Him through the watery grave of baptism, something spiritual happens in our lives and we are delivered from the oppression of Satan and our consciences, our minds, are cleansed from evil, though we are already born of the Spirit.

Sherman, I appreciate your story and I think you did a good job of explaining your position. I have one question though that you and some of the more learned scholars can probably easily answer, and I am not trying to trap you. I haven't had this question answered adequately in my mind for years:

How are we in a saved condition prior to baptism if we still have all of our sins to our account? Assuming what you say about baptism is true that it cleanses us from the filth of sin. I go even further in my belief that it not only cleanses us from the FILTH of sin, it cleanses us of sin itself. This happens because we "put on" Christ at baptism. Yes, the heart must be circumcised, but the "de-sinitizing" occurs at baptism, right?

Actually, I believe the "de-sinitizing" occurs increasingly over the life of the believer (sanctification), and is not fully completed experientially until judgement day when we clearly see just how wicked we really are and repent from our sins and errant beliefs and fully receive the forgiveness of God.  And when it comes to the judgement day, the way we will stand with the sheep is because we've put our trust in the saving power of the blood of Christ.  So prayer, baptism, communion, reading the Word, and confession are all means of us appropriating (receiving and experiencing) the eternal cleansing power of the blood of Christ.  

The key is being born again, born of the Spirit, receiving the gift of salvation by faith.  So that we are saved by grace through faith and then because of our salvation we increasingly appropriate the forgiveness of our sins, we increasingly repent from our evil wicked beliefs and ways, and increasingly are conformed to the image of Christ our saviour.  Hallelujah!!!  We are saved by grace through faith, and even faith is a gift of God so we cannot even boast in our faith, but only in the goodness, mercy, and forgiveness of God.  Jesus died for all of our sins, past, present, and even future, and has given to us His righteousness, acceptance before God!  We are saved completely by God's goodness in spite of our wickedness.  So is our hope and trust in God's goodness, or in our rightness of doctrine, or right actions, or right living?  Salvation comes when we no longer trust in our rightness, but only in the rightness of God.

But you didn't address my question of how are we counted saved with sin still to our account prior to our sins being cleansed at baptism. How can we face a holy and righteous God with sin still to our account if we weren't baptized.

[Sherman Nobles]

But you didn't address my question of how are we counted saved with sin still to our account prior to our sins being cleansed at baptism. How can we face a holy and righteous God with sin still to our account if we weren't baptized.

That's just it, because of the sacrifice of Christ, sin is no longer attributed to our account.  Our sins and the judgement against our sins was nailed to the cross.  So when we stand before God, we stand in the righteousness and acceptance of Christ.  Hallelujah!  When we put our faith in Christ, we are born of the Spirit and the righteousness of Christ is credited to us.  Baptism is not about getting into heaven; baptism is about living on earth, us bringing a little of what we have in heaven by faith to earth.  We can either put our trust in Christ, or trust in something else: baptism, good works, prayer, fasting, reading the bible, confession, etc.  All of these are good and helpful in this life for appropriating the forgiveness of sins and establishing the Kingdom of God (heaven) on earth; but our salvation is completely dependent upon the grace of God, the undeserved favor that He has towards us.  The truth is, we deserve hell, but God has forgiven us because of Christ! 

[Jaime]

But at what POINT is my question? I have no argument with anything you have said, except if baptism washes our sins away, we are therefore still sin stained prior to baptism. therefore, can we be in a saved state while this stain exists?

I just can't reconcile saved while sin stained is all. Whatever the mechanism and timing, it is all Christ and none of us.

[spurly]

"By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."  (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Using Biblical terms, we are saved by grace through faith.  We are saved by grace when we completely trust in the Person God provided to secure our salvation - Jesus Christ.  That is what baptism represents - trusting in the saving work of Jesus Christ.  However, without faith baptism is useless.  Thus, from where I stand, it is our faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ that saves us.  By the way, the Bible talks much more about being saved or being justified by faith than anything else.  If there is any point that needs to be elevated in our walk with God it is God's grace to us through Christ and our complete trust in the Messiah God provided.

[Jaime]

Of course baptism without faith is useless. No argument whatsoever.

I still feel like my question is un-answered, but it is probably a semantic and perspective problem with me.

I am not making an argument that baptism saves or not, I am asking if it washes sin away, can we be deemed saved without the remission of sin that baptism affords. This in no way in my mind says if this is so, then baptism saves us. NO WAY. Or maybe baptism doesn't afford remission of sin at all. That is really the question.

I am apparently not communicating what I want to ask, so I will shut-up and see where it goes.

[savedbyhim]

I do not believe that the Bible teaches us that salvation comes from anything of our doing....at any level. This is why when we repent of our sinful state in a true, biblical sense we must lay all of our own worthlessness at the cross, trusting entirely in the sacrifice that Jesus made. Until a person does that they are not even a candidate for baptism.

If it were possible for us to repair our sinful condition by doing even a little of something else, even baptism, it would have been done a long time ago and the blood of Christ would not have been required. But Paul's letter to the church in Rome does not teach us that we are saved by our own doing.....we are saved only by the righteousness of God and nothing else. If any person has received salvation at all it is only through our Father's workmanship through His Son, Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that He made.

So, what does this have to do with baptism? Baptism is not an act that accomplishes salvation because of our doing it. Once again, we cannot and never will accomplish salvation through our own works...it simply doesn't work that way. Baptism is however a symbolic act that reflects one's acceptance of God's perfect grace. It is the grace of God that delivers salvation to us all and not baptism. The act of being baptized, at least in a biblical sense, is a symbol of one's faith in what Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection, and acceptance of the saving grace of God that has "appeared to all mankind." If a person is baptized for this reason then their past sins are removed and God will "remember them no more."

This may cause more problems than good, so I apologize if it does. I was only wanting to clarify what proper baptism is. The act itself is not what saves a person and too many people have their faith anchored in the act and not the purpose of it.

Blessings to all that love the Lord for what HE has done.....

[Jaime]

No disagreement from me.

[Sherman Nobles]

But at what POINT is my question? I have no argument with anything you have said, except if baptism washes our sins away, we are therefore still sin stained prior to baptism. therefore, can we be in a saved state while this stain exists?

I just can't reconcile saved while sin stained is all. Whatever the mechanism and timing, it is all Christ and none of us.

It is when we put our faith in Christ that the righteousness of Christ is attributed to us, though we are still sinful.  Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit and was accepted by God (saved) while Peter was still preaching, apparently without even saying a sinner's prayer and before he was baptized.  So was Cornelius accepted by God, born of the Spirit, while he still had sin in his life? Of course!  Our salvation is not in any way dependent upon how good we are, but solely dependent upon the goodness and mercy of God.  

When I stand before God in faith and humility today or on the judgement day, I do not stand before Him in my name, but in the name of Christ.  By faith I have traded my record for Christ's because He said that's why He came.  Hallelujah, I can hardly contain my joy over the fresh realization of this truth and reality!!!!  

Baptism washes away our sins, but are we sinless and perfect after baptism?  No!  We continue to sin and are by the fleshly nature sinful beings, wicked, evil, and twisted.  So what do we do after baptism? We pray, we worship, we partake of communion, we confess our faults to one another, and God is faithful to forgive us.  Do we fall in and out of being saved? Of course not. Rather, He that has begun a good work in us is faithful to complete it!  Our salvation is not based in any way upon our sinlessness, nor is it stopped by our sinfulness.  Our salvation is completely based on the sinlessness of Christ and His paying for our sins through the cross.  So our salvation rests completely in Him, regardless of our sinfulness.  

The closer we draw to Christ, the more we realize just how sinful we are and how much our salvation is completely dependent upon the grace, undeserved favor, mercy, love, and goodness of God.  And the closer we draw to Him, the more the fire of His presence cleanses us from such sin, until we stand before Him face to face and are completely cleansed, completely healed, completely made whole!  Our hope is in Christ and not at all in our selves.

So, can we be saved while still being stained, sinful?  Because of the Cross, YES!!!!

[Sherman Nobles]

"By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."  (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Using Biblical terms, we are saved by grace through faith.  We are saved by grace when we completely trust in the Person God provided to secure our salvation - Jesus Christ.  That is what baptism represents - trusting in the saving work of Jesus Christ.  However, without faith baptism is useless.  Thus, from where I stand, it is our faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ that saves us.  By the way, the Bible talks much more about being saved or being justified by faith than anything else.  If there is any point that needs to be elevated in our walk with God it is God's grace to us through Christ and our complete trust in the Messiah God provided.

AMEN!!!

[yogi bear]

Forgive me if I repeat anyone but I only read to this posting and had questions for Sherman.

Sherman,  You said

I was raised in the Church of Christ and was taught from childhood that water baptism is necessary for salvation and that one is not saved until one is baptized "for the forgiveness of sins". We also did not like to say that we were saved because we equated salvation with making it into heaven, rather than salvation being a restored relationship with God our salvation.

This I can relate to for it is the teaching I was raised on also. Therefore I am much interested in hearing your view and getting answers to some questions as I try to open my eyes,ears and heart to the mesage of Gods word to see a more clear understanding or strenghten  my understanding which ever way it turns out.

You also said

The primary issue for me was the Baptism in the Holy Spirit; but of course, this thread is not on that subject so I'll not go there.

I would much like to see a study from you on this topic also if would be interested in starting a thread on it.

You went on to say

As I've meditated over the years on being delivered from a spirit of lust through baptism, even though I was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit a few months before being baptized in water, I've come to understand that baptism in water is a powerful Means of Grace for the believer, a conduit of the Holy Spirit's power for Christian living.

Could you explain this a little better? I don't quite understand just what you are saying here.I would like to hear you give it more detailed expression than for me to think what you meant with my preconceived thoughts.

Now with this next quote from you I will show that I to was raised with the teaching you are saying is misleading. The quote is

Being raised in the Church of Christ, one of our favorite scriptures to "prove

[Sherman Nobles]

I do not believe that the Bible teaches us that salvation comes from anything of our doing....at any level. This is why when we repent of our sinful state in a true, biblical sense we must lay all of our own worthlessness at the cross, trusting entirely in the sacrifice that Jesus made. Until a person does that they are not even a candidate for baptism.

If it were possible for us to repair our sinful condition by doing even a little of something else, even baptism, it would have been done a long time ago and the blood of Christ would not have been required. But Paul's letter to the church in Rome does not teach us that we are saved by our own doing.....we are saved only by the righteousness of God and nothing else. If any person has received salvation at all it is only through our Father's workmanship through His Son, Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that He made.

So, what does this have to do with baptism? Baptism is not an act that accomplishes salvation because of our doing it. Once again, we cannot and never will accomplish salvation through our own works...it simply doesn't work that way. Baptism is however a symbolic act that reflects one's acceptance of God's perfect grace. It is the grace of God that delivers salvation to us all and not baptism. The act of being baptized, at least in a biblical sense, is a symbol of one's faith in what Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection, and acceptance of the saving grace of God that has "appeared to all mankind." If a person is baptized for this reason then their past sins are removed and God will "remember them no more."

This may cause more problems than good, so I apologize if it does. I was only wanting to clarify what proper baptism is. The act itself is not what saves a person and too many people have their faith anchored in the act and not the purpose of it.

Blessings to all that love the Lord for what HE has done.....

Thanks for the blessing and for the post.  I think baptism is far more than just a symbol though. It is also a means of cleansing for us, not so that we can make it into heaven or be accepted by God, but to help us receive the cleansing and forgiveness we have in Christ.  Believers who are saved but have not been baptized are missing out on a spiritual blessing from God that can help them live their life on earth.  Baptism is like the Sabbath day, it is for us, we are not for it.  Baptism does wash away our sins. It's like taking a bath for our soul.  

Aha, maybe this will help explain how I understand it.  I believe we are a three-part being like God.  We are spirit, soul, and flesh.  When we put our faith in Jesus, we are born of the Spirit.  When we receive Christ by faith, our spirits are reunited with the Holy Spirit.  We are saved, hallelujah!  And we are seated in heavenly places with Christ spiritually.  But our souls and flesh are still bound to this earth and are still sinful.  Prayer, baptism, communion, confession, etc., all help to bring a little of heaven (the salvation of our spirit) to earth (the sanctification of our souls and life for our bodies).  So when we are baptized, our souls are cleansed, receive a bath, and many of the evil strongholds of the enemy are torn down.

Of course, we will not fully realize the salvation of our souls and flesh until we die and are fully received into heaven.  But spiritually we are already with Christ in heaven.  Because we are born of the Spirit, we can actually begin to see into heaven (the Kingdom of God).  Until one is born of the Spirit, he cannot see into heaven and does not experience the present reality of heaven on earth.  

Salvation is heaven on earth! or Salvation is us seated with Christ in heaven though we are still on earth!  Either way, salvation is a present reality with a future hope!  Unfortunately, religion always has a way of dangling salvation out there like the proverbial carrot.  Jesus however, saves us and then empowers us walk out that salvation.  

So, by grace we are saved through faith, and faith is even a gift of God.

[Sherman Nobles]

bvaug,

Thanks for your gracious reply and open attitude.  It is very difficult to rethink anything that we've been taught for years, so I appreciate your patience and perserverance.

Concerning being delivered from a spirit of lust.  As I shared, I gave my life to the Lord and was baptized when I was 9 in a CoC, non-instrumental, conservative, independent, elder led church.  I preached my first full sermon when I was 12.  After high school I went to a two-year bible school CoC bible school (not that it was ruled by or supported by CoC congregations directly, but by individual CoC members) anyhow.  It was during this time that I was introduced to pornography and was secretely addicted for a couple of years.  From that point on, though I eventually stopped the pornography, I could not look at a woman without raping her in my mind.  It was evil, wicked, nasty, and I hated it.

Long story short.  After preaching a teaching for a few years in the CoC, (though I was full of hidden lust but not acting on it) I started reaching out evangelistically to my aunt who attended a Pentecostal church.  I did not consider her to be a member of the one true church like I had been added to (but not saved).

As I shared with her, she shared with me about being baptized in the Holy Spirit like the first century church experienced.  I started studying with her to convince her that such was not for today.  Well, shortening the story, I came to a place to where I could understand why they believed differently than I did about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and about salvation.  I eventually came to a place to where I cried out in prayer to the Lord, asking Him to show me clearly which was correct, what I had been taught since youth, or what I was beginning to see differently in the Word. 

He answered. With no one else around, I felt a big hand on my back, a man's big right hand between my shoulder blades.  At that moment if felt like someone stuck a firhose in my chest and turned it on.  I opened my mouth and a river of words came out, words of another language that I had never heard.  But even though I did not know this language, I understood it.  It was a revolutionary experience for me. 

In this other language, I was declaring my faith and trust in Christ for my salvation. I was worshipping Him like never before.  Scripture started flashing across my mind and it was like the lights were turned on and I could understand them like never before.  For months I had been studying scripture on tongues, the gift of the Spirit, reviewing and reconsidering what I had been taught in CoC bible school.  But all of a sudden, what once I believed was for the first century church but not for me, I realized that God really wanted all of this for every Christian of every generation, to be filled with His presence and power!  As I said, it was a revolutionary event in my life.

My life was turned up-side-down.  I had a passion for the Lord, the Word, and prayer that I did not even know one could have.  I had a boldness in sharing my faith in Christ that I had always wanted but was always to afraid to try.  I began learning to recognize the voice of God and the leading of the Spirit.  I even began receiving prophetic words and direction from the Lord.  He began to teach me many lessons, things that I had never heard before but were in the Word.  I threw myself into the Word like a hog in slop (pardon the courseness, no disrespect to the Word intended).  But I still struggled with wicked thoughts about women.

I prayed about this sin many times but seemed to get no relief.  Then one day as I was driving to work, I was praying about it again, and the Lord said, "Well, be baptized!".  He didn't say, "Well, dummy,..." but it sure felt that way in a lighthearted manner, like it was something that I should have known.  Anyhow, I didn't think of being baptized again because I had been baptized when I was 9, but I obeyed the Lord and was baptized a few weeks later when the church had their quarterly baptismal service for those who had received Christ in the mean time.

Well, during that time, I had forgotten the context and impetus of the Lord's direction to be baptized and I just did so out of obedience with not specific purpose in mind.  The event came and went with nothing super spiritual happening.  But a couple of days later, as I walked across the parkinglot at work, a beautiful young lady walked past me in the opposite direction.  She was beautiful and I noticed and appreciated her beauty but I did not have even one twisted thought about her.  I walked on through the parking lot and getting to the other side, the Holy Spirit spoke to me, "Did you see that?"  I responsed, "What?"  He said, "You didn't lust after her!"  I tell you, I could hear the smile, the pleasure and excitement for me in His voice.  Man, I did a little hallellujah jig right there in the parking lot.  Sometimes you just gotta dance in praise and celebration of the goodness of God!!!  That was one awesome day.  Since that time, I don't struggle nearly like I did.  Of course, there is always the temptation to fall back into that, and when my wife and I are not on the best of terms, it seems like I'm tempted more.  But it is not a stronghold of evil in my life any more, hallelujah!!!

Well, I've got to go.  I'll try to get to your other questions as I can.  Some of the things you question are addressed in other posts, but I'll gladly address them again.  I never tire of talking about the salvation we have in Christ, hallelujah! or encouraging others to receive that salvation by faith, be saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Spirit!

Blessings,
Sherman

P.S. I'm busy the next few days through the weekend, but I'll check on this thread as often as I can.  And thanks to everyone for your gracious replies.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Actually, I believe that in order for one to see the kingdom of God, one must be born again, born of the Spirit, which comes through faith in Christ. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."  Jn.3.16

The two are the same event.  Water baptism is a figure of new birth, as all babies are born of water.  Water rituals are still practiced in the Middle East for adoptions.

Did you know that the Pharisees of that day also baptised their proselytes?  They baptised them into the name of Abraham, saying that they were being re-born as Jews.  With that in mind, John's words to the Pharisees make more sense:

Mat 3:7-9   But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[marc]

Now with this next quote from you I will show that I to was raised with the teaching you are saying is misleading. The quote is

Being raised in the Church of Christ, one of our favorite scriptures to “prove” the necessity of being baptized for salvation was Acts 2:38, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Note how remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit are tied together, just like repentance and baptism. From this verse and similar ones it would seem that baptism is a necessary step to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You see the way I see it “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is one thought. The little  ;  separates the thought and the remaining and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is a clause stating what the first does for one.  Ok I don't know how to express what I tried but hope your COC upbringing will let you understand what I mean.

Excuse me for getting a little off topic, but what version is this, and why is there a semicolon here?  It doesn't seem to belong.  I say this having just finished grading a stack of 11th grade essays.  If I had found this punctuation used in this way there, I would have marked it as a mistake.

Just curious.

[Sherman Nobles]

Actually, I believe that in order for one to see the kingdom of God, one must be born again, born of the Spirit, which comes through faith in Christ. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."  Jn.3.16

The two are the same event.  Water baptism is a figure of new birth, as all babies are born of water.  Water rituals are still practiced in the Middle East for adoptions.

Did you know that the Pharisees of that day also baptised their proselytes?  They baptised them into the name of Abraham, saying that they were being re-born as Jews.  With that in mind, John's words to the Pharisees make more sense:

Mat 3:7-9   But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Some believe that they are the same event, and they possibly can happen at the same time for some people.  But it was not the same event and did not happen at the same time for me or for Cornelius.

And yes I am familiar with the Jewish micvah baths and their purpose of ceremonial cleansing and purification of the soul.  Jews who were already Jewish by birth and circumcision would be baptized as a sign of consecration to the Lord and as a sacrament to help them receive forgiveness for their sins.  It was used by various groups as an intiation into that group.  And the priests used baptism as a means of cleansing before they did various rituals in the temple.  And John the Baptist's baptism was connected too with the forgiveness of sins. 

So understanding the Jewish heritage concerning baptism helps us understand that it was connected with the forgiveness of sins, ceremonial cleansing, initiation into a new group, and even to some extent a fresh start with the Lord, a way of putting the past behind and starting again.  And baptism is the same for us, and Satan does all he can to keep God's children (believers in Christ) from availing themselves of such a powerful means of grace.  And one of the ways he does it is by using it to divide us and question eachother's salvation if we are not baptized using the exact formula that we use. 

Some believe you have to be baptized in the name of Jesus; if you are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit it doesn't count.  Some believe in it so much that they baptize babies and question whether or not unbaptized children that die will go to heaven.  Others believe that it is not good enough to be baptized just because Jesus commanded it, but they must also be baptized believing that that act saves them, otherwise it's not effective and the person is not really saved. etc.

But when it comes down to it, we are saved by the grace of God through faith.  Cornelius was saved, born of the Spirit before he was baptized. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, etc. were all saved by faith.  And salvation has always been dependent upon the grace and mercy of God. 

[churchmember]

Sherman,

I've noticed that you write rather lengthy never staying on point.       
Could I implore of you  to at least   quote scripture for the statements that you make quite frequently  that are less biblical and more charismatic-televangelist?
And when quoting using those scriptures could you explain them in context? 
Instead of, for example, when talking about works, if the original hearers would have been involved in a judaic-gentile conflict, please include that in your explanation rather than taking out a part of the passage and applying it wholesale to things that were never inteneded.    Ummmmkay?     Thanks!!   

[Barabbas]

Sherman,

I've noticed that you write rather lengthy never staying on point.       
Could I implore of you  to at least   quote scripture for the statements that you make quite frequently  that are less biblical and more charismatic-televangelist?
And when quoting using those scriptures could you explain them in context? 
Instead of, for example, when talking about works, if the original hearers would have been involved in a judaic-gentile conflict, please include that in your explanation rather than taking out a part of the passage and applying it wholesale to things that were never inteneded.    Ummmmkay?     Thanks!!   

 

[Sherman Nobles]

Churchmember,

I don't quite understand your request.  My posts do tend to be rather lengthy and I'm sorry about that.  It's just that I understand many things so very differently than what is commonly taught in the CoC, that it takes some "splainin."  In an effort to be as short as is possible for me, I do allude to many scriptures without quoting them all or even directly referencing them all. If I quoted and explained each scripture that I allude to, well, it would result in a term paper, not just a lengthy post.

Several posts back you noted that you thought "being saved" was not a biblical term.  But of course, Eph.2.8-9, actually says "By grace you were saved..."  So, I'd like to ask again for you to please share your testimony, the events surrounding when were you saved?

Thanks,
Sherman

P.S. I do appreciate your gracious and thoughtful replies. Thanks.

[Harold]

Grace:

(1) on the part of the bestower, the friendly disposition from which the kindly act proceeds, graciousness, loving-kindness, goodwill generally, especially with reference to the divine favor or "grace," Vine's

Grace is something bestowed.

Because of God's loving kindness we are saved through faith, not because I did any thing, it is God's loving kindness.

FTL

[churchmember]

There is only one baptism that is the one mentioned in reference to the remisison of sins.   
The bible indicates that God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34.   It also indicates in many places that sins are not remitted until proper baptism has been accomplished.  Yet we need only one citation to make this a binding ordinance.  Lets see about Acts 22:16
Of Saul (the apostle Paul):  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[da525382]

Oh, no, please not another baptism thread......Can this website simply create an entirely new and separate FORUM apart from Theology entitled "Baptism"?

[marc]

Actually, I'm curious to see where he's going with this, since he hasn't told what the one scriptural baptism is but has already used the usual definition (for remission of sins) to describe what it does. 

[Johnb]

da said
Oh, no, please not another baptism thread......Can this website simply create an entirely new and separate FORUM apart from Theology entitled "Baptism"?

agreed.  I think I can live without another thread on the necessity of and purpose of and time of... baptism.

[Volkmar]

Ah comeonguys!  I can NEVER get enough of this....  ;o)

V

[churchmember]

Will anyone stand up for the true teachings on baptism?

That it is not for infants but for those at the age of accountability.
That it is for those wanting remission of sins.
For those that have faith in Christ to remit their sins at baptism. 

Will anyone stand for the truth?

[marc]

If you'll check out a few threads, you'll see much standing up that is done.  It is more common, however, when baptism isn't being used as a club to beat someone else over the head with.

[churchmember]

Beating over the head?  No one said anything about beating over the head or any such violent act. 

Do you stand with the clear teachings in the NT on baptism?

[marc]

No.  I like to ignore clear teachings so I can go to hell and take everyone I come in contact with along for the ride.  How about you?

[churchmember]

No.  I like to ignore clear teachings so I can go to hell and take everyone I come in contact with along for the ride.  How about you?

I'm taken aback by such contumeliousness you seem to possess in regards to this charge we've been given. 
1 Timothy 6:12 says Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Is this the kind of attitude that is proper for a christian soldier?

[Serenity432001]

No.  I like to ignore clear teachings so I can go to hell and take everyone I come in contact with along for the ride.  How about you?

I'm taken aback by such contumeliousness you seem to possess in regards to this charge we've been given. 
1 Timothy 6:12 says Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Is this the kind of attitude that is proper for a christian soldier?

It's the kind of attitude one acquires when for years they've been told clear teachings is whatever it is the other person wants them to believe.  It insinuates that if one doesn't come away with the same interpretation of scripture as I do then their teaching is not clear but mine of course, is!

[Bon Voyage]

Will anyone stand up for the true teachings on baptism?

That it is not for infants but for those at the age of accountability.
That it is for those wanting remission of sins.
For those that have faith in Christ to remit their sins at baptism. 

Will anyone stand for the truth?

Will you stand on Mark 16:16 that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved?  I ask this because when I hear the words "scriptural baptism," a doctrine condemning those who believe and are baptized is often what I hear next.

Will you stand on Acts 10:43 that points out that what grants the remission of sins the authority/name of Jesus Christ when you look at Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38?

[da525382]

No.  I like to ignore clear teachings so I can go to hell and take everyone I come in contact with along for the ride.  How about you?

Profound.

[Johnb]

quote
Is this the kind of attitude that is proper for a christian soldier?

Perhaps when the soldier meets arrogance personified.  Later Johnb

[da525382]

Will anyone stand up for the true teachings on baptism?

That it is not for infants but for those at the age of accountability.
That it is for those wanting remission of sins.
For those that have faith in Christ to remit their sins at baptism. 

Will anyone stand for the truth?

Yada.....yada.....yada.