Kennites?

[OldDad]

For those who don't know, the "serpent seed" view holds that Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent in the Garden.

It is fostered by a micro-sized lunatic fringe in Christianity - people like William Branham, Arnold Murray, and the Christian Identity white supremacist movement.  I encourage those interested to check the links provided for any of these people or movements or look for the serpent seed doctrine itself on any cult information website.

[k-pappy]

And, Moses did NOT marry a Kenite in the sense you are understanding it.  She was not of Kenite blood but she resided among Kenites.  For instance, I am of Scotch/Irish descent...should I live in Timbuktu I would be termed a Timbutuian but I would not be of Timbuktu blood.  Same with the wife of Moses. 

Yes he did.  She was a Kenite living in the land of the Midianites.  Using your example, she had kenite blood, not midianite blood.

[whirlwind]

The sudden, reckless and seemingly-supernatural fall back to the Levites as a "Musical Worship Team" fulfills both the worship of the starry host (stars meant famous people) and serpents. The adoption of a charismatic style happened when the marginal mountain people worshiping snakes while under the influence infiltrated the mainstream. History notes that this is voodoo dressed up.

H3878 lêvıy lay-vee' From H3867 ; attached; Levi, a son of Jacob:—Levi. See also H3879 , H3881

Livyah (h3880) liv-yaw'; from 3867; something attached, i. e. a wreath: - ornament.
Lavah (h3867) law-vaw'; a prim. root; prop. to twine, i. e. (by impl.) to unite, to remain; also to borrow (as a form of obligation) or (caus.) to lend: - abide with, borrow (-er), cleave, join (self), lend (- er).

Leviyyiy (h3881) lay-vee-ee'; or 3878 lay-vee'; patron. from 3878; a Leviite or desc. of Levi: - Levite.

Livyathan (h3882) liv-yaw-thawn'; from 3867; a wreathed animal, i. e. a serpent (espec. the crocidile or some other large sea-monster); fig. the constellation of the dragon; also as a symbol of Babylon - leviathan, mourning.

Jb.41:1 CANST thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

When the Israelites fell into idolatry at Mount Sinai God sentenced them to return to Assyria and Babylon. When the elders fiec God and demanded a king "like the nations" God understood that ty wanted to worship like the nations--but not for long.

The assumed and untranslated root lawa (lwh 1089) gives rise to the words liwya (liwya 1089a1) and loya (loya 1089a2), both meaning wreath. Although the wreath is an item that is typically coiled or twisted, its both ends are also joined to make a circle. Another derivation of this same root is the word Leviathan (liwyatan 1088), which in English is pronounced as Leviathan. The various usages of the name Leviathan obviously depict different animals, and thus the word liwyatan denotes a category of fierce, coiling creatures (crocodiles, hippos, snakes). Because of the relation with the first lawa (be joined) some suggest that even the mythological snake Ouroboros, who bites his own tail, may be grouped under the Leviathanic head.

The Ouroboros or maybe Cockatrrice is that eternal cycle of sun and moon worship.

http://www.piney.com/Ouroboros11.gif

The links on this Serpent Worship paper are probably changed.

http://www.piney.com/SerpentWorship1.html

The Levites were an old infant burning cult in Egypt. Remember that Kenites were used in th temple and the "jews" operating the temple system when Jesus Came were probably Edomites.  Since they are clearly associated with Satan one might expect that most pulpits will be busy little bees doing everything they can think of to silence the voice of Jesus.

Out of energy!

Levi-athan.  I wrote a thread about that.  The crooked serpent Levi-athan.  Funny how something can be right in front of our eyes and we don't see.  

• Angelic Choirs - According to medieval theologians, reflected in sources as far apart as Dante's Divine Comedy and the Koran, God created the Universe and everything in it, not in order to increase his power and goodness, which are by definition infinite, but in order that other beings should share in his love.
  
  This is the meaning of the angelic choirs who are represented hymning the glory of God.  Music-making is particularly appropriate to Angels, whose dance can become a mandale of paradise.  But music by itself lacks one particularly angelic function:  the word, or Logos.  Thus it is in poetry, defined as rhythmic speech accompanied by music, that man reaches the language of the Angels, or as the sufis call it, the language of the birds, revealed by the djinn to Solomon.  Rhythm lifts time out of the realm of the profane and transmutes it into the Aevum, the "created eternity' of the Angels.

Quoted from Angels, Messengers of the Gods, by Peter Lamborn Wilson.

Notice the title Mr. Wilson chose is "of the Gods" plural.  He also doesn't capitalize God in the above and in another place in the book writes of the "myth of Satan."  

The above caught my eye because of the teaching from Blituri about music.  Also, last night I watched Destination Truth where, in this particular episode, they were in Petra...said to be haunted by the Djinn.  A bedouin explained that the djinn were satanic.

Strange how things come together...Blituri's message, my reading a book I've had for years and seeing the above and watching a program telling us what djinn is.  

[whirlwind]

For those who don't know, the "serpent seed" view holds that Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent in the Garden.

It is fostered by a micro-sized lunatic fringe in Christianity - people like William Branham, Arnold Murray, and the Christian Identity white supremacist movement.  I encourage those interested to check the links provided for any of these people or movements or look for the serpent seed doctrine itself on any cult information website.

I would think it more appropriate to guide people to the Word of the Lord.  He tells us.....

• Genesis 3:14-15   And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

[whirlwind]

And, Moses did NOT marry a Kenite in the sense you are understanding it.  She was not of Kenite blood but she resided among Kenites.  For instance, I am of Scotch/Irish descent...should I live in Timbuktu I would be termed a Timbutuian but I would not be of Timbuktu blood.  Same with the wife of Moses. 

Yes he did.  She was a Kenite living in the land of the Midianites.  Using your example, she had kenite blood, not midianite blood.

You misunderstand my example.  Her father was a Midianite priest.  What blood flowed in her veins? 

[OldDad]

When do we get to the part where you tells that certain people - Indians, Hispanics, Southeast Asians, Africans - are the sons of Satan?

Serpent Seed is a vile, racist twisting of scripture - and although I think it need to be locked, for the time being I am moving it to Non-Traditional Theology.

[OldDad]

Here's an article with interesting information:

Serpent seed and kenites

[k-pappy]

And, Moses did NOT marry a Kenite in the sense you are understanding it.  She was not of Kenite blood but she resided among Kenites.  For instance, I am of Scotch/Irish descent...should I live in Timbuktu I would be termed a Timbutuian but I would not be of Timbuktu blood.  Same with the wife of Moses. 

Yes he did.  She was a Kenite living in the land of the Midianites.  Using your example, she had kenite blood, not midianite blood.

You misunderstand my example.  Her father was a Midianite priest.  What blood flowed in her veins? 

No, I understand your example perfectly...you just misapplied it.  They lived in the land of Midian, but they were kenite by blood. 

Bond

[k-pappy]

Here's an article with interesting information:

Serpent seed and kenites

I think this puts the "debate" to rest:

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1: "Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"  We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is:  Adam.  The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

Bond

[whirlwind]

When do we get to the part where you tells that certain people - Indians, Hispanics, Southeast Asians, Africans - are the sons of Satan?

Serpent Seed is a vile, racist twisting of scripture - and although I think it need to be locked, for the time being I am moving it to Non-Traditional Theology.

Again, the truth is being deflected through calls of racism.  Are there different races?  Yes.  Are they Kenites?  No.  Then...the various races are not Kenites. 

When God created mankind, all races, He said, "It is very good."  Not so with the Kenite folks.  Please don't allow racists groups to hi-jack truth as they incorporate it into their disgusting agenda.  If one sticks to the Word of the Lord one sees the truth. 

There are many groups that take truth and corrupt it...including some of our  churches.  It doesn't mean the truth is corrupt.  Is there serpent seed?  It is written that there is.  By your opening sentence I understand that you have listened or read from those groups.  Please discard that and only absorb His Word. 

[whirlwind]

And, Moses did NOT marry a Kenite in the sense you are understanding it.  She was not of Kenite blood but she resided among Kenites.  For instance, I am of Scotch/Irish descent...should I live in Timbuktu I would be termed a Timbutuian but I would not be of Timbuktu blood.  Same with the wife of Moses. 

Yes he did.  She was a Kenite living in the land of the Midianites.  Using your example, she had kenite blood, not midianite blood.

You misunderstand my example.  Her father was a Midianite priest.  What blood flowed in her veins? 

No, I understand your example perfectly...you just misapplied it.  They lived in the land of Midian, but they were kenite by blood. 

Bond

Exodus 2:14-15 And he said Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian?

[k-pappy]

Why did you break up verses 15 and 16?  Those two prove my point. 

You bolded certain sections to make it look as if you were right, but when you read in context, together, without your own ephasis, it reads:

15 When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well. 16 Now a priest of Midian had seven daughters, and they came to draw water and fill the troughs to water their father's flock.

They were in the land of Midian, but they were not midianites. 

Please refrain from adding your own ideas to God's Word.

Bond

[blituri]

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1: "Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"  We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is:  Adam.  The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

Eve claimed a virgin birth: that means that Adam was not involved. The serpent claimed the role of the lord in dozens of documents.  Fraternal twins: one black and one white is still possible.  The TWO SONS story is fndamental to understanding.

I suppose that trying to hide an important discussion is one way to win. That is because people see dogma as the goal and not searching for the underlying accounts  Moses looked back to the history of these "virtual" Egyptian and future "Babylonians" and explained their old and future religion.  Jesus spoke of parables from the foundation of the world which means that the accounts are pointers to warn people.  The Jews would have understood their past when Moses points to the creation of 'heaven' and "earth' which were major Egyptian gods or goddesses.

Clergy as a mass do not want anyone to know the truth.  Paul knew the truth.  It is hard to find a historical church father who did not understand what is dismissed as wacko.

Num. 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.
Judg. 1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
Judg. 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.
Judg. 4:17 Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.
Judg. 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
1Sam. 15:6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.


Jael is blessed because she promised a man a place to rest and then DROVE A NAIL into his head.  Depends on whose head is being gored, I suppose.

[whirlwind]

Why did you break up verses 15 and 16?  Those two prove my point. 

You bolded certain sections to make it look as if you were right, but when you read in context, together, without your own ephasis, it reads:

15 When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well. 16 Now a priest of Midian had seven daughters, and they came to draw water and fill the troughs to water their father's flock.

They were in the land of Midian, but they were not midianites. 

Please refrain from adding your own ideas to God's Word.

Bond

Yes, they were in the land of Midian (did I not put that in bold letters?) and the father-in-law of Moses was a Midianite priest.  They were not Kenites. 

I don't understand why you see the verses as "broken up" in a certain way.  Is the following broken up?  It is exactly as I posted it...no thoughts of mine added to God's word. 

• Exodus 2:14-15 And he said Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The Levites were an old infant burning cult in Egypt.  Remember that Kenites were used in th temple and the "jews" operating the temple system when Jesus Came were probably Edomites.

I don't remember the Kenites being used int he temple at all... and I couldn't find it in my Bible.  Where'd you get that?

Also, although the Herods were Edomites, the "Jews" operating the temple were probably not.  They were, in all probability, descendants of the priests that the Hasmoneans brought in.  Since they sprung from the north, that would make them some mix of Jew, Syrian, Assyrian, and Samaritan.

[whirlwind]

Nevertheless, his entire position on the Serpent Seed doctrine is easily refuted when we examine Gen. 4:1: "Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.'"  We can see that the Bible clearly tells us who the Father of Cain is:  Adam.  The Serpent Seed idea is proven wrong.

Eve claimed a virgin birth: that means that Adam was not involved. The serpent claimed the role of the lord in dozens of documents.  Fraternal twins: one black and one white is still possible.  The TWO SONS story is fndamental to understanding.

It is indeed fundamental for there the groundwork was laid for the struggle in this age.  As you pointed out, Eve thanked the lord...not Adam, for her child.  Verification for this understanding is that the genealogy of Cain is not shown in that of Adam! 

I suppose that trying to hide an important discussion is one way to win. That is because people see dogma as the goal and not searching for the underlying accounts  Moses looked back to the history of these "virtual" Egyptian and future "Babylonians" and explained their old and future religion.  Jesus spoke of parables from the foundation of the world which means that the accounts are pointers to warn people.  The Jews would have understood their past when Moses points to the creation of 'heaven' and "earth' which were major Egyptian gods or goddesses.

Clergy as a mass do not want anyone to know the truth.  Paul knew the truth.  It is hard to find a historical church father who did not understand what is dismissed as wacko.

I don't know if "clergy as a mass" know the truth but when confronted with it   .  It is odd to me how this teaching, written in Scripture, receives such a reaction but it always does.  I suppose it is because it's been hijacked by dispicable folks.  But, instead of being led away from truth because of that we should instead...search the scriptures:

• Proverbs 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

If it isn't true...His Word will attest to that.  How many in the time of Jesus were turned away because they listened to the religious folk instead of searching the Scriptures?  How many today are turned from truth by listening to man instead of searching the Scriptures? 

[Link]

• Moses wasn't an Egyptian but historically, in all probability, was still dressed as one.   The seven daughters were not Kenites although they lived among them.  They were daughters of a Midianite priest.
  
  Midian was a son of Abraham and Keturah....

Genesis 25:1-2 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medah, and MIDIAN, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

• The priest of Median was not a Kenite.

Instead of quoting scriptures that show that Moses married a Midianite, why don't you deal with the scriptures that show that he married a Kenite?

Judges 1;16
And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.


Paul was an Israelite, but he was also a Benjamite.  He could be both.  I do not know for certain if the nation of Midian were Abraham and Keturah's descendants.  It is certianly is possible.  It could be that the nation of Amalek were descended from Esau's descendant Amalek as well.  I do not see it as conclusive in the Bible. 

Kenite could be a sub-grouping of Midianite that became its own people-group.  There could have been more than one group of Kenite.  We read that Moses' father'-in-law was a Kenite.  Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite.  Moses married a Cushite.  It is also conceivable that Moses was a polygamist like Abraham and David. 

Have you compared the area where Moses' in-laws settled to the area where another passage says Kenites settled?  The Kenites who became scribes may well have descended from Moses' brother-in-law.

Let's face it, Murray's teaching on Kenites is not in the Bible.

1.  Genesis does not say that Eve had sex with the serpent.

Murray's twisting of words from a Strong's glossary are junk scholarship.  The use of the word 'tree' does not prove that Eve had sex with a snake.   "Seduce" can be used in a metaphorical sense.

2.  Cain's descendants died with the flood.

Unless you want to define them as animals.  That would be as good a justification for Hitler holocaust as any I've seen.  Just say that a lot of people calling themselves Jews aren't really human, and are instead satanic hybrids.  Germans called Jews 'rats.'  If you define the Kenites as 'flesh' but not as humans on the ark, isn't that consistent with the evils of Nazi philosphy about Jews. 

One could say that Murray was born about 70 years too late and on the wrong continent.

If we suppose that one of Noah's sons married a Kenite, that makes a whole lot more people Kenites, most of the inhabitants of an entire continent at least. 

3.  The Kenites who lived among the Jews may have been of the benign variety.

There were a group of Kenites in Israel who were in-laws of Moses.  Kenites settled and became scribes.  They were allies of Israel dating back to the time of the conquest.  Saul refrained from attacking Kenites.  A Kenite woman killed a king who was an enemy of Israel.  God used a group of Kenites as an example of faithfulness and put a blessing on one of them. 

Based on the positive treatment of these Kenites, there is no reason to think that they are demonic hybrids intent on infiltrating the people of God.

4.  Naturalizing the spiritual.

Murray has some really weird ideas.  He talks about Kenites being tares, as if being a tare were a matter of physical birth.  Are all us non-Jewish northern European descended white folks supposed to be saved just because we are white, while those who are considered Jews are supposed to be tares?

Then he has this nonsensical teaching about the possibility of tares becoming wheat-- a purely nonsensical argument that does not fit with the parable.  He uses junk arguments to prove his case, like arguing that because the word 'sperma' is used to refer to the seed, that that proves his case.  The English word for 'sperm' comes from the Greek word for seed, but the parable is about sowing seed in the field, not sowing sperm in a field.

In John 8, Jesus agrees with those arguing with Him that they are Abraham's seed.  That is their physical descent.  The reason they were the children of the devil is shown in the passage.  They did his works.  They did not do Abraham's works, though they were descended from him.  I John shows that being like Cain is a matter of the heart.  Hating one's brother makes one like Cain.  Murray reads this satanic hybrid conspiracy theory into lots of passages where they don't fit.

Murray's teachings sound appealing to some people on the surface, especially if they haven't heard them all and thought of the racist implications.  Murray endorses the Strong's.  But if one really goes through the Strong's and looks up what he says, with some dilligent study and some much-needed guidance from the Holy Spirit, one can see that Murray's arguments are spurious and unbiblical.   

[blituri]

Cain was OF that wicked one and Paul knew more about Eve than we.

2Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
        for I have espoused you to one husband,
        that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means,
        as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
        so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corrinthians 11.3 phoboumai de mē pōs, hōs "ho ophis exēpatēsen

[whirlwind]

• Moses wasn't an Egyptian but historically, in all probability, was still dressed as one.   The seven daughters were not Kenites although they lived among them.  They were daughters of a Midianite priest.
  
  Midian was a son of Abraham and Keturah....

Genesis 25:1-2 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medah, and MIDIAN, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

• The priest of Median was not a Kenite.

Instead of quoting scriptures that show that Moses married a Midianite, why don't you deal with the scriptures that show that he married a Kenite?

Judges 1;16
And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

That was already established.  I was pointing out that they were of Midianite lineage among Kenites.  The verse is saying that the children of Moses father-in-law, (who was a Midianite priest and therefore could not be a Kenite), but was termed one as he lived among them....left their Kenite neighbors and went "with the children of Judah" and there they "dwelt among the people."  Kenites would not have been welcomed.  Moses would not have married one. 

Paul was an Israelite, but he was also a Benjamite.  He could be both.  I do not know for certain if the nation of Midian were Abraham and Keturah's descendants.  It is certianly is possible.  It could be that the nation of Amalek were descended from Esau's descendant Amalek as well.  I do not see it as conclusive in the Bible. 

Kenite could be a sub-grouping of Midianite that became its own people-group.  There could have been more than one group of Kenite.  We read that Moses' father'-in-law was a Kenite.  Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite.  Moses married a Cushite.  It is also conceivable that Moses was a polygamist like Abraham and David. 

Moses was only married once.  Keturah is termed Kenite as well as Cushite because of the area in which she lived.   

Kenites are sons of Cain.  Are they mixed into other races?  I think so.  Could they be in the Midianites?  Yes but was Keturah or her father a Kenite?  No!  Ask yourself if God would allow Moses to marry into that lineage? 

Have you compared the area where Moses' in-laws settled to the area where another passage says Kenites settled?  The Kenites who became scribes may well have descended from Moses' brother-in-law.


Let's face it, Murray's teaching on Kenites is not in the Bible.

1.  Genesis does not say that Eve had sex with the serpent.

Yes it does. 

Murray's twisting of words from a Strong's glossary are junk scholarship.  The use of the word 'tree' does not prove that Eve had sex with a snake.   "Seduce" can be used in a metaphorical sense.

It can be.  It can also be exactly what it states.  In Greek it is to be "wholly seduced."  There are other factors to be considered if you are interested. 

2.  Cain's descendants died with the flood.

Unless you want to define them as animals.  That would be as good a justification for Hitler holocaust as any I've seen.  Just say that a lot of people calling themselves Jews aren't really human, and are instead satanic hybrids.  Germans called Jews 'rats.'  If you define the Kenites as 'flesh' but not as humans on the ark, isn't that consistent with the evils of Nazi philosphy about Jews.

Did I define anyone or did I quote Scripture?  Did Scripture define anyone as animal or as flesh?  Understand....the flesh on the ark were all races, two by two, male and female....ALL races.  Those that don't understand throw race, Hitler, skin heads into this...please don't be part of it. 

One could say that Murray was born about 70 years too late and on the wrong continent.

If we suppose that one of Noah's sons married a Kenite, that makes a whole lot more people Kenites, most of the inhabitants of an entire continent at least. 

Noah's family was "perfect in their generations."  They were not of mixed lineage.

3.  The Kenites who lived among the Jews may have been of the benign variety.

There were a group of Kenites in Israel who were in-laws of Moses.  Kenites settled and became scribes.  They were allies of Israel dating back to the time of the conquest.  Saul refrained from attacking Kenites.  A Kenite woman killed a king who was an enemy of Israel.  God used a group of Kenites as an example of faithfulness and put a blessing on one of them. 

Based on the positive treatment of these Kenites, there is no reason to think that they are demonic hybrids intent on infiltrating the people of God.

Our Savior warned us....Beware the scribes.  Also consider.....

• Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, "therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.:"  And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
  
  Matthew 13:25-30  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Cain and his offspring have a job to do until the last day.  The Kenites God said were faithful is a lesson to us.  They follow their father faithfully....we don't. 

4.  Naturalizing the spiritual.

Murray has some really weird ideas.  He talks about Kenites being tares, as if being a tare were a matter of physical birth.  Are all us non-Jewish northern European descended white folks supposed to be saved just because we are white, while those who are considered Jews are supposed to be tares?

Being a tare has nothing to do with being of Judah.  Please understand who they are....

• Revelation 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Then he has this nonsensical teaching about the possibility of tares becoming wheat-- a purely nonsensical argument that does not fit with the parable.  He uses junk arguments to prove his case, like arguing that because the word 'sperma' is used to refer to the seed, that that proves his case.  The English word for 'sperm' comes from the Greek word for seed, but the parable is about sowing seed in the field, not sowing sperm in a field.

There is the seed sown in the field to produce grain.  There is the seed sown that produces children.  He first spoke to the multitudes...in parables.  To His disciples He said....Hear!  He wants us to understand.

• Matthew 13:34-36  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.  Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
  
  13:37-39  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As used there "seed" is.....

• #4690 sperma ~ something sown, i.e. seed including male sperm by impl. offspring, spec. a remnant (as if kept over for planting) - issue, seed.

In John 8, Jesus agrees with those arguing with Him that they are Abraham's seed.  That is their physical descent.  The reason they were the children of the devil is shown in the passage.  They did his works.  They did not do Abraham's works, though they were descended from him.  I John shows that being like Cain is a matter of the heart.  Hating one's brother makes one like Cain.  Murray reads this satanic hybrid conspiracy theory into lots of passages where they don't fit.

Abraham was the father of many nations but they were not of Judah as they were saying they were.  Instead they are of the synagogue of Satan.  "How do we know?  They said they were "never in bondage."  All twelve tribes were in bondage for many years. 

Murray's teachings sound appealing to some people on the surface, especially if they haven't heard them all and thought of the racist implications.  Murray endorses the Strong's.  But if one really goes through the Strong's and looks up what he says, with some dilligent study and some much-needed guidance from the Holy Spirit, one can see that Murray's arguments are spurious and unbiblical.   

You are allowing thorns and briers to block your path.  Would you simply cut through the weeds with His two-edged sword...not permitting "sources" to throw verbal obstacles, such as racism, cultism, etc.,  that have nothing to do with the written word. then you would be making a decision on what is written only.  That seems the better course to me.  [/list]

[blituri]

I don't remember the Kenites being used int he temple at all... and I couldn't find it in my Bible.  Where'd you get that?

Just a quick look at Scripture, here is more than I know for certain:

Technically, only Levites could serve in the inner court where sacriices were made: Only sons of Aarron could serve in the Holy Places. Israel made strangers into priests but they were totally idolatrous.

Ezek. 44:7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers,
        uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary,
        to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood,
        and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

Remembering that Jacob told US not to attend the assemblies of Levi or enter into a covenant with them, we should not be surprised at anything they did as they had been "turned over to worship the starry host."

IN THE WILDERNESS

Num. 10:29   And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you:
        come thou with us, and we will do thee good:
       for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.

Kenites were Midianites.

Judg. 1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Hobab is Jethro.

Ex. 4:18 And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go in peace

Therefore, the Kenites were some kind of division of the Midianies. Hobab the Midianite was a Kenite.

Remembering that Christ in the prophets said that God had not commanded sacrifies and burnt offerings when He saved them by pure Grace:

    Ex. 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods:
            for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
    Ex. 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law,
            took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God:
            and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel,
            to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

It would be the elders who fired God and demanded a king like the nations: God knew that they wanted to worship like the nations. They did, but God said "not for long." He warned that the kings would rob, steal, enclave them and cause them to go into captivity and death.

The faith of Moses faltered claming that HE could not carry all of these people. Again, it was Jethro who told Moses how to organize a pyramidal "ministry system" which did not depend on God. Significantly, a preacher was told by "a spirit" to impose the Levite's music and in one notorious group their organizational structure was a pyramid or ziggurat.

    By Exodus 32 the Israelites rose up to "play" in musical idolatry during a feast. Thus, with the Kenites and the mixed multitude the national system has been abandoned to Babylonianism combined with their old Egyptian religon.

The Scribes of the abandonment to a Monarchy are all subgroups of the Kenites or Rechabites.

1 Chr 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab. (KJV)

We are warned about the "lying pen of the Scribes."

It seems that the Kenites from the land of Midian have merged with Judah.

Neh. 3:14 But the dung gate repaired Malchiah the son of Rechab, the ruler of part of Beth-haccerem; he built it, and set up the doors thereof, the locks thereof, and the bars thereof.

When the Rechabites (Kenites) were taken into the temple and tempted with wine and resisted:

Jer. 35:16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:
Jer. 35:18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites,
        Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;
        Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father,
        and kept all his precepts,
        and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
Jer. 35:19 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;
        Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

Whatever they may have done, they were superior to the Levi tribe.

Subject to correction: a disciple has no pride of authorship.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

We keep treating this as if it were all literal. 

If that is the only view we are willing to entertain, then the answer is obvious to the point of comedy.  I am pretty darn sure that a literal woman named Eve did not copulate with a literal snake, and become pregnant by it!    That's freakin' ridiculous!   (Perhaps no more ridiculous than Elijah flying to heaven in a chariot that was on fire, but I digress...) 

If that is your view, please take the little blue pill, and you will wake up at home in front of your computer and just remember this as a bad dream. 

On the other hand, if you still think there's more to know of this story, take the little red pill, and follow me down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass...

First, a "Kenite" or "Cainite" could be a person of any nationality or race, who happens to have indentured themselves to someone else.  You may remember the story of Joseph, how he stockpiled grain, and then sold it back to the people during the famine, and eventually ended up buying the people themselves, as they had no more money to trade.  Those people were all Qana' - the Hebrew word meaning "bought" - by Joseph.  Thus they were the Qanai - Kenites.

Not all bought men were affiliated with Egypt, though.  For instance,

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy (Qanah) bondmen and bondmaids.

Cain's name likewise means "possession" or "bought."  It is defined explicitly in the Biblical text, if we bother to look:

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived , and bare Cain (Qa'iN), and said , "I have gotten (QaNaH) a man from the LORD."

Qanah "gotten" is the same root as Cain "gotten."  That's Eve naming him there.  Eve has a nice sense of humor.  Or maybe that's Moses having a little fun with the people.   

So... Moses wife clearly was a Midianite, but that doesn't mean she wasn't also a Kenite.  The last we heard of Midianites before this, they were on their way up from Egypt because of a famine, when they found Joseph in a pit. 

Second, we can't forget where the Torah was written from, and who it was written to.  It was written from 'Abel Shittim (Meadow of Acacias) on the east bank of the Jordan, to a group of Israelites who were just about to enter their Promised Land, and who had just passed through a land filled with "Kenites."  Much of the book may even have been written during their passage the lands of these Kenites - the native Egyptians who took back Egypt from them, as well as Egyptian vassals in Midian, Edom, and Moab.  Click this sentence for a nice illustration of the area of Abel Shittim, and some information about it.

History says that once upon a time, there was a short dynasty of Semitic shepherds (including one with monotheistic tendencies) who ruled Egypt, with a capital at Avaris, where a mythological figure going by the name of Seth was important.  The Hyksos dynasties.  It further says that the Egyptians rose up and threw them out of Egypt.

Now, if I might speculate a bit... I think perhaps that the story of Cain and Abel (and Seth) might have been taken a little differently by these Israelites, given their "out of Egypt" experiences and present location.  The Israelites are the sons of "Seth."  It's explicit in the text.  But Cain killed their brethren - Abel, which means "gone like a vapor in the wind."

Who would they say the sons of Seth were?  And where had the inhabitants of Abel-Shittim gone?  And, wait, were they killed by Cain?   Perhaps Seth and his kin, might do well to be wary of them there Kenites.   

It's a cautionary tale, one that ought to be understood as if one were standing there on the steppe - the wild riverbank - on the east side of the Jordan, waiting to cross over.

Jarrod

*The Sumerians called the untamed, unirrigated riverbank "Edin," but that is another story.

[Link]

And, Moses did NOT marry a Kenite in the sense you are understanding it.  She was not of Kenite blood but she resided among Kenites.  For instance, I am of Scotch/Irish descent...should I live in Timbuktu I would be termed a Timbutuian but I would not be of Timbuktu blood.  Same with the wife of Moses. 

We know that Moses found his wife in the land of Midian.  So if she were given one name because of the land she was from, and another because of her bloodline, she may have been a Kenite by blood and a Midianite by geography.

Midianite may have been a strand of Kenite.  (It is not clear from the Bible if these Midianites were Abrahamic.)  Or Kenite may have been a strand of Midianite.  The descendants of Cain of the Cain and Abel story died in the flood.  Peter says that 8 were saved by water.  Noah, Shem, Ham, Japeth with one wife apiece makes 8.  Sorry, no descendants of Cain made it, no matter what Murray says. 

The Bible does not teach that Cain was the result of result of Eve having sex with a snake.  Adam knew Eve and she bore a son and named him Cain.  Show me where the Bible says that Cain was the result of sex between Satan and your female ancestor?

• The priest of Median was not a Kenite.

Can you show me some scripture that says that the Midianites would not take a Kenite for a priest?

Being a tare has nothing to do with being of Judah.  Please understand who they are....

    * Revelation 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

You missed my point.  Do  you think that the wheat are white people who are the real Jews, and that the tares are people who are popularly considered Jews but are really partly human, satanic hybrids masquarading as Jews? 

As used there "seed" is.....

    * #4690 sperma ~ something sown, i.e. seed including male sperm by impl. offspring, spec. a remnant (as if kept over for planting) - issue, seed.

It also means 'seed' as in the kind you plant in a field.  'Sperm' doesn't mean that in English. If you were to plant sperm in a field, it would not produce wheat or tares.  But if you were to plant wheat 'sperma', that is seed, in a good field with the right rain and sunlight, you can expect that wheat will come up.  The parable talks about planting seed, not about planting sperm.

Abraham was the father of many nations but they were not of Judah as they were saying they were.  Instead they are of the synagogue of Satan.  "How do we know?  They said they were "never in bondage."  All twelve tribes were in bondage for many years. 

The people Jesus was debating with did not have a good handle on the truth, and they made mistakes in what they said.  If they were really slick pretenders pretending to be Jews, why would they confess to not being Jews?  Jesus did not say they had never been in bondage.  They said that. 

You are allowing thorns and briers to block your path.  Would you simply cut through the weeds with His two-edged sword...not permitting "sources" to throw verbal obstacles, such as racism, cultism, etc.,  that have nothing to do with the written word. then you would be making a decision on what is written only.  That seems the better course to me.

Murray's doctrine has a lot of leaven in it.  I went through his Kenite teaching with a Strong's, which ironically, he recommends, and looked up his junk Greek and Hebrew arguments. He has twisted Strong's definitions and the scriptures.

[blituri]

If that is the only view we are willing to entertain, then the answer is obvious to the point of comedy.  I am pretty darn sure that a literal woman named Eve did not copulate with a literal snake, and become pregnant by it!  eek!  That's freakin' ridiculous!   eek!(Perhaps no more ridiculous than Elijah flying to heaven in a chariot that was on fire, but I digress...)  Whistling

True enough but you will never understand to what a passage is pointing if you do not understand what the text says.

I think the sex is very possible since in Ezekiel 31 the Assyrians are called the tallest trees in Eden.  Paul says that Eve was wholly seduced.  That's what it says: what does it mean? The Jews say the serpent--meaning one who whispers enchantment--(not a snake) was Satan.

[marc]

I apologize for bumping this thread. I had no idea people took this silliness seriously; I thought it died with Jim Crow.

[blituri]

Bad mouthing Strongs is not very wise: His numbers are used by the brightest. That is because they do no defne words but show what they mean in a given passage. Anyone can look up the passage and understand that to be the meaning. That would not make you a translator but others have done that work.  The story implicating a separate race before God planted Adam and Eve is documented. I have collected 3 dozen versions includin several church fathers. True or not, if you are going to "live off the Bible" you should be able to define what it says even if you that that it means something else.

H7014 qayin kah'-yin The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069 ); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe:—Cain, Kenite (-s).

H7013 qayin kah'-yin From H6969 in the original sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast):—spear. 2 Sam 21:16
H6969 qûn koon A primitive root; to strike a musical note, that is, chant or wail (at a funeral):—lament, mourning woman.

H7069 qânâh kaw-naw' A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own:—attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Understanding what recorded history understands has nothing to do with taking it seriously. But, if not I would kindly ask that all of the preachers quit pretending.  Jesus spoke parables to the multiudes--false Jews--to hide from them: He said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world. If the spiritual truth lies deeper than skin deep, I don't see how one could bea disciple without caring what the text says: that's why instiutes steal from the destitue.

Ever hear about aliens? Can you build pyramids?  All around the world? Will you be doomed if you think about it?

[blituri]

Without Fourth Maccabees you would not understand Hebrews 11

http://www.piney.com/4Macc.html

4 Maccabees Chapter - 18

1 - O Israelite children, offspring of the seed of Abraham,
      obey this law and exercise piety in every way,
2 - knowing that devout reason is master of all emotions,
      not only of sufferings from within, but also of those from without.
3 - Therefore those who gave over their bodies in suffering for the sake of religion
      were not only admired by men,
      but also were deemed worthy to share in a divine inheritance.
4 - Because of them the nation gained peace,
      and by reviving observance of the law in the homeland they ravaged the enemy.
5 - The tyrant Antiochus was both punished on earth and is being chastised after his death.

    Since in no way whatever was he able to compel the Israelites to become pagans
    and to abandon their ancestral customs,
    he left Jerusalem and marched against the Persians.

6 - The mother of seven sons expressed also these principles to her children:
7 - "I was a pure virgin and did not go outside my father's house;

    but I guarded the rib from which woman was made.

8 - No seducer corrupted me on a desert plain,
        nor did the destroyer, the deceitful serpent,
        defile the purity of my virginity.

Duh! thas what Paul hallucinated.

9 - In the time of my maturity I remained with my husband, and when these sons had grown up their father died. A happy man was he, who lived out his life with good children, and did not have the grief of bereavement.

Yes, I know, everyone before the ME generation were wacko. Must have had a TV preacher using Strongs?  You suppose?