Define Catholics!

[chandrus]

Your thoughts.

[chandrus]

God loves Catholics, hates catholicism!

[janine]

I doubt God has much use for any of our "-isms".

[HRoberson]

Your thoughts.

Uhhhhh.........members of the Catholic church? Normally used to refer to members of the Roman Catholic Church, but can be extended to include all those in communion with Rome.

[Machaira]

Your thoughts.

The word "catholic" means "universal" and was used to refer collectively to believers wherever in the world they were found. This is why the Apostles Creed says at one point, "I believe in the catholic church."   

[Robert Pate]

I do not consider Catholics to be Christians.  It is a religion of works.

[ann]

I do not consider Catholics to be Christians.  It is a religion of works.

Oh but we so are very Christian!!  Roman Catholics are also Christian. 

your loose usage of Catholic  just shows how much you don't actually know!!!
you are fond of religion of works.

you haven't explained what you mean as religion of works?

[Machaira]

you haven't explained what you mean as religion of works?

I hope Robert doesn't mind if I butt in here with my own 2 cents.

I'll let Rome speak for herself on this. The following is extracted from the Council of Trent, The Sixth Session, On Justification:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

[Robert Pate]

ann

If you agree with Machairas post then you are Catholic.  This is what Catholics believe.  I think you should go to my web site and take the doctrine quiz.  You may find out that you are a Catholic.
http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com

[broach972]

I do not consider Catholics to be Christians.  It is a religion of works.

Please elaborate.  This is quite a bold statement.  I am assuming that you know what you are talking about.  I am sure that you have studied Catholicism extensively.  Please tell me why Catholics aren't Christian.  What do you mean by "religion of works?"

[broach972]

God loves Catholics, hates catholicism!

What a quote!  Chandrus, you must be only person I know that truly understands the mind of God.  What else does He think?

[zoonance]

Ask Robert. 

[Robert Pate]

broach972

Theoretically there are two ways to be saved.

1 You must keep all of the commandments from the time that you are a small child until you die.  This is impossible.

2 place your faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ. Plus nothing.

Catholicism does not teach or believe that you are saved by faith alone.

Catholicism teaches that you cannot be saved unless you are a member of the Catholic church.

Catholicism teaches that you must participate in the sacraments or you cannot be saved.

There is no historical gospel in the Catholic church.  That is that Christ lived for us, died for us, and was resurrected for us.

The Catholic church teaches that Christ died so that the Holy Spirit would be available to make one holy.  They believe that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

[HRoberson]

broach972

Theoretically there are two ways to be saved.

1 You must keep all of the commandments from the time that you are a small child until you die.  This is impossible.

2 place your faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ. Plus nothing.

3. Respond to God in the way in which He expects.

Catholicism does not teach or believe that you are saved by faith alone.

Neither does Scripture.

Catholicism teaches that you cannot be saved unless you are a member of the Catholic church.

No, it does not.

There is no historical gospel in the Catholic church.  That is that Christ lived for us, died for us, and was resurrected for us.

So the RCC doesn't teach "that Christ lived for us, died for us, and was resurrected for us."??

The Catholic church teaches that Christ died so that the Holy Spirit would be available to make one holy.  They believe that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

I'm not sure that Jesus died so that we'd have the Spirit, but Scripture does indicate that the Spirit does work within us, presumably to make us holy.
I'm not at all sure the RCC teaches that Christ does not save us. Care to provide an RCC reference?

[Robert Pate]

HRoberson

Take the doctrine quiz on my web site, you may find out that you are a Catholic.  http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com

[HRoberson]

HRoberson

Take the doctrine quiz on my web site, you may find out that you are a Catholic.  http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com

My dear Robert. I already have. I scored 100%.

It made me feel good.

[James A. Wyly]

broach972


The Catholic church..... believe(s) that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

The Catholic Church, as do all other liturgical churches, recites the Nicene Creed every mass as a statement of its basic beliefs.  In part, that Creed says:

" For us and for our salvation
          he (Christ) came down from heaven;
          he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
          and was made human.
          He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;...."


I am not sure why you claim the Catholic Church believes Christ does not save us.  The salvation of fallen man was the entire point of the incarnation, the death and the resurrection.  

The Catholic Church believes nothing different than you and I do on this point and spells it out every Sunday in its liturgy.

Jim W.

[mistergus]

I am not sure why you claim the Catholic Church believes Christ does not save us.  The salvation of fallen man was the entire point of the incarnation, the death and the resurrection.  

The Catholic Church believes nothing different than you and I do on this point and spells it out every Sunday in its liturgy. Jim W.

Actually, there is a huge difference.

The Catholic Church would have us run a gauntlet to get to God.

Praying through Mary...going through a human "Priest'...

Part of the body of offical Catholic doctrine is the treaching that we must obtain forgiveness from Mary herself, in addition to Jesus Christ, that she is a "co-redeemer" with Christ himself.


Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.

... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.


There's a ton of info out there on this subject.  This is only one of a thousand places to start...


http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/marycoredeemer.htm


What an amazingly ritualistic, works-centered religion Catholicism is.

Robert G

[Robert Pate]

mistergus

Thank you mistergus.  I have sat in Catholic services and heard the priest recite the nicene creed and thought, gee they believe just like I do.  It is very decieving, they mean something entirely different.

There interpretation of grace means that it is the goodness of God working in us that makes us acceptable to God.

There is no gospel in the Catholic church, when they say gospel they mean
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

When I say gospel, I mean the life, death and resurrection. Where God has provided salvation for us in the person of Jesus Christ.

[Robert Pate]

HRoberson

I am glad that you scored 100%. You can now go to heaven.

[broach972]

mistergus,
You have me worried.  You might want to stay away from those Marian doctrines.  I don't want you bursting any brain cells.  They can be intellectually challenging, and they are not for the faint at heart.  But I offer the following for your amusement.

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/most.htm

One must understand that Mary is not divine and the Marian doctrines have nothing to do with making Mary divine, but protecting the divinity of Christ.  Her role is primarily intercessory in nature, as it is with the saints.  How many times have Christians asked someone to pray for them in time of need?  And I can bet that Jesus loved his momma.  Would we think any differently?  Besides, what would have happened if she would have said no?

[James A. Wyly]

mistergus

Thank you mistergus.  I have sat in Catholic services and heard the priest recite the nicene creed and thought, gee they believe just like I do.  It is very decieving, they mean something entirely different.

There interpretation of grace means that it is the goodness of God working in us that makes us acceptable to God.

I know that the commonly accepted meaning of the words of the Nicene Creed say our salvation is dependant upon Jesus becoming flesh, dying on the cross and being resurrected.  That is the plain meaning of the language of the Creed .

If the Catholics have some secret, hidden meaning of the words apart from the commonly accepted one, I cannot answer that.  But both you and I know they do not.

There is no gospel in the Catholic church, when they say gospel they mean
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

When I say gospel, I mean the life, death and resurrection. Where God has provided salvation for us in the person of Jesus Christ.

So far as the Catholics meaning something different by "gospel

[Machaira]

Her role is primarily intercessory in nature, as it is with the saints.  How many times have Christians asked someone to pray for them in time of need? 

Mary and the "saints" as intercessors would require that they possess the incommunicable attributes of omniscience and omnipresence. How do finite creatures pull this off? Where is there any indication in the Scriptures that such an important role was assigned to Mary and the saints? Beside all of this, the Scriptures clearly tell us who intercedes for us during our feeble prayers.

Rom 8:26  And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
Rom 8:27  and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

[HRoberson]

HRoberson

I am glad that you scored 100%. You can now go to heaven.

Thank you for your permission. 

[mistergus]

One must understand that Mary is not divine and the Marian doctrines have nothing to do with making Mary divine, but protecting the divinity of Christ.  Her role is primarily intercessory in nature, as it is with the saints.  How many times have Christians asked someone to pray for them in time of need?

Her role is "primarily intercessory in nature, as it is with the saints"?  What saints?  Dead or alive?

Doesn't matter.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ"  -  1 Timothy 2:5.

Why would anyone waste their time praying to Mary, or anyone else?

Robert G

[janine]

Such people assume Mary can hear them when they ask her to pray for them.

[kensington]

mistergus,
You have me worried.  You might want to stay away from those Marian doctrines.  I don't want you bursting any brain cells.  They can be intellectually challenging, and they are not for the faint at heart.  But I offer the following for your amusement.

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/most.htm

One must understand that Mary is not divine and the Marian doctrines have nothing to do with making Mary divine, but protecting the divinity of Christ.  Her role is primarily intercessory in nature, as it is with the saints.  How many times have Christians asked someone to pray for them in time of need?  And I can bet that Jesus loved his momma.  Would we think any differently?  Besides, what would have happened if she would have said no?

Mary was 100% human. She died and is awaiting the resurrection like everyone else. She is not seated at the left hand of the father interceding for us.  Why do you need others to pray for you when you can ask the VERY LORD WHO DIED FOR YOU to intercede for you, and He is seated at the right hand of the Father doing that?

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray... He did not mention, Mother, He went right to the Father.

There is no Mary in the trinity. And there never was. She said it best herself... she was a servant of God.  Blessed to do what He asked of her. 

I think it a shame to do something to Mary that she did not intend or ask. She was a humble servant, never part of the God head. And I bet we will find she disappointed that her words were so misunderstood.   

[trifecta]

Catholics are what all Christians were called for about 1000 years.

Roman Catholic refers to one of the five patriarchates of the original
churches.  The others were (and at still exist) at Alexandria, Antioch,
Constantinople, and Jerusalem.  

There are Maronite (Lebanon), Melkite (Arab?(, and Uniate (Ukrainian) churches  today that are part of the current post-schism Catholic church.  

The other four patriarchates after the Great Schism (1054) became known as the Orthodox churches.

All of today's Catholics recognize the Pope (Benedict XVI) as the leader of their church and the Vicar of Christ.

Much Christian doctrine that Protestants believe were developed in the Catholic Church.

As one who is learning the eastern Christian tradition, let me say to all you
Catholic-bashers out there:  be careful at whom you throw stones.

You have much more in common with Catholics than you think.


trifecta
(see below for my theological tendencies)

[Jimbob]

Catholics are those who submit to the Bishop of Rome and all his extrabiblical laws and edicts.

[mistergus]

Much Christian doctrine that Protestants believe were developed in the Catholic Church.

I challenge this claim.  It has no basis in fact. 

Any "Protestant" who believes a doctrine not originating from scripture should re-examine that teaching.

But those who look to the scriptures for authority for their faith and practice need go no further than the Bible.  And they don't.

And as far as nonessentials are concerned, just because windows are common in church buildings doesn't mean their use was developed in the Catholic church.

Robert G

[broach972]

Much Christian doctrine that Protestants believe were developed in the Catholic Church.

I challenge this claim.  It has no basis in fact. 

I take it that Protestants do not believe in the Trinity (Catholic doctrine)?  I take it that Protestants do not recognize the New Testament as official canon (yep, who do you think sanctioned the final list and books of the canon?  It just didn't happen as most Protestants think).  I take it that Protestants disagree with the Nicene Creed (yep, Catholic in origin).

To a degree, both of you are correct.  The doctrines formulated by the Catholic Church during its first 1500 years were simply changed at the time of the Reformation.  Those early doctrines formed the doctrinal foundation of the faith.  The early Church and early form of Christianity as defined by the accepted doctrines of the time mirrors that of the Catholic Church today.  It hasn't changed during its 2000 year history!  This is fact!

Historical writings and those of the Church Fathers prove this point.  Of course, who would you trust more, those that wrote about the faith and had a hand in developing doctrine during the first 500 years of the faith or those that came 1500 years later.  The same Church that everyone is so quick to condemn and dismiss were responsible, guided by the Holy Spirit, for deciding which writings were to be included and which ones were to be left out of the Canon.  The wheel cannot be reinvented, but Luther and Co. gave it a good shot.  And of course, no one mentions that Luther did succeed in taking out 7 books attached to the Old Testament.  Luther actually wanted to go further.  If it was up to him, the only books that would have survived would the four Gospels and some letters of Paul.  This is historical fact.

[janine]

Of course it's easy for a church that lays claim to an unbroken line of apostolic succession to look at everything from the early church fathers to mental concepts developed over time and call them Catholic.

Somebody whistle up a member of the Orthodoxen and ask them if they, too lay claim to stuff like that?

I swear, it's like the old "Russian joke".

[jb728b]

http://www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Catholicism.html

[ann]

broach972

Theoretically there are two ways to be saved.

1 You must keep all of the commandments from the time that you are a small child until you die.  This is impossible.

2 place your faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ. Plus nothing.

Catholicism does not teach or believe that you are saved by faith alone.

Catholicism teaches that you cannot be saved unless you are a member of the Catholic church.

Catholicism teaches that you must participate in the sacraments or you cannot be saved.

There is no historical gospel in the Catholic church.  That is that Christ lived for us, died for us, and was resurrected for us.

The Catholic church teaches that Christ died so that the Holy Spirit would be available to make one holy.  They believe that it is the Spirit working in ones life that makes them acceptable to God.  It is the Spirit that saves not Christ.

you refer to keeping to the ten commandments is impossible to do. Does that give you adequate reason not to try?  With the Love of Father son and Holy Spirit I can try to keep to the ten commandments as well as I can.  Confession is available for those times when things are tough and you feel so far away from God.. Confession isn't just about confessing of sins but about deepening your relationship with God.  So if you find that it is impossible, then talk about it with someone who understands and they will help you along. I do not consider the ten commandments impossible.

Participating in the Sacraments is no difficulty either!  Baptism, confirmation, Holy Communion, Marriage, Confession and burial are the major ones we abide by in the Church of England.    

As for your claims that there are no historical claims....that Christ lived for us, died for us, and was resurrected for us...have you been to a catholic church throughout Lent and Easter, througout advent and Christmas, throughout the whole year and really listened to the readings and participated in church events?  If not then how can you say this because Catholics know that Jesus Christ lived for us, died for us and was resurrected for us!  

There is nothing there that is not impossible to do.  

I will quote the creed for you since you seem to know so little

WE believe in one God,The Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.  We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father.  God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father.  Through him all things were made.  For us men and for our Salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man.  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and wa buried.  On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.  We believe in the HOly Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.  With the father and the son he is worshipped and glorified.  He has spoken through the prophets.  We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.  We acknowleddge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins..  We look for the resuurection of the dead and lthe life of the world to come. Amen.

I start getting your facts straight before you begin to criticise.

[the J Man]

God loves Catholics, hates catholicism!

Amen! God loves every human being on the face of the planet and desires that none should perish, but have eternal life(2nd Peter3:9),  and desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of Christ(1Timothy2:4). The Lord desires all to be grounded in the truth(John8:32), to allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth(John16:13). Since God desires us to practice truth and embrace truth, He hates false chrsitianity, He hates watered-down christianity, He hates it when people are deprived from being taught the truth. I know people brought up in the catholic church that were not taught holiness and righteousness, they were not taught the Word of God, they were never trained up in ministry to be soldiers in the army of God. All they were taught was religion, a bunch of rules and regulations. They don't even know what relationship with God really is.

This isn't about bashing catholics, for they are human beings too. Nobody is better than nobody. and we all need the grace of God. But what catholics are into, is not of God. The apostle Paul says in Galatians1:8 that if any preach any other gospel, let them be accursed. False gospels don't sit well with God. I have seen catholics give glory to Mary when the only "ONE" who is worthy of glory is the Lord Jesus Christ. That is idolatry. The first of the 10 commandments is that we have no other god before Him. Only He is God and only He deserves our worship.