Chick Tracts

[Harold]

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

We ask saints to pray for us, just like we ask family members to pray for us. Ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? Watch out, you've got a mediator other than Jesus, then, better repent! And no more asking family and friends to pray for you, only Jesus is allowed since he's the one and only mediator.

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

You say Jesus is the ONLY mediator...but then ask family and friends to pray for you...what a contradiction! Get the indication?

Family and friends are living here on earth with us, we are not to seek the dead for anything, as Saul found out trying to seek Samuel.

FTL

[mllevaleur]

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

We ask saints to pray for us, just like we ask family members to pray for us. Ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? Watch out, you've got a mediator other than Jesus, then, better repent! And no more asking family and friends to pray for you, only Jesus is allowed since he's the one and only mediator.

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

You say Jesus is the ONLY mediator...but then ask family and friends to pray for you...what a contradiction! Get the indication?

Family and friends are living here on earth with us, we are not to seek the dead for anything, as Saul found out trying to seek Samuel.

FTL

This topic has been beaten to death elsewhere before, so I'm not going to get into it.

My point is simply that if you want to disagree, fine, but don't misrepresent what we believe. The above analogy explains how we see asking saints to pray for us. There is no voodoo involved, I'm  not trying to get a response through tarot cards from magic spirits, I'm simply asking a fellow Christian to pray for me. If that's against Christ being our one mediator, so is asking family to pray for you.

Like I said, not looking for agreement here, just explaining our POV as Catholics.

[Harold]

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

We ask saints to pray for us, just like we ask family members to pray for us. Ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? Watch out, you've got a mediator other than Jesus, then, better repent! And no more asking family and friends to pray for you, only Jesus is allowed since he's the one and only mediator.

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

You say Jesus is the ONLY mediator...but then ask family and friends to pray for you...what a contradiction! Get the indication?

Family and friends are living here on earth with us, we are not to seek the dead for anything, as Saul found out trying to seek Samuel.

FTL

This topic has been beaten to death elsewhere before, so I'm not going to get into it.

My point is simply that if you want to disagree, fine, but don't misrepresent what we believe. The above analogy explains how we see asking saints to pray for us. There is no voodoo involved, I'm  not trying to get a response through tarot cards from magic spirits, I'm simply asking a fellow Christian to pray for me. If that's against Christ being our one mediator, so is asking family to pray for you.

Like I said, not looking for agreement here, just explaining our POV as Catholics.

If your focus toward heaven is anything other than Jesus Christ then you are out-of-focus. I understand you are giving your POV, I am asserting your POV is misguided. Asking a friend to pray for you is not the same as asking the dead.

In Luke Jesus speaks of the dead not being able to communicate with the living. Luke 16:19-27

FTL

[Volkmar]

                           The Creation of the Sacred Spaces and Objects


In the late second and third centuries a shift occurred. The Christians began to adopt the pagan view of reverencing the dead.42  Their focus was the memory of the martyrs.43 So prayers for the saints (which later devolved into prayers to them) began.44

The Christians picked up from the pagans the practice of having meals in honor of the dead.45 Both the Christian funeral and the funeral dirge came straight out of paganism in the third century.46   

Third-century Christians had two places for their meetings: Their private homes and the cemetery.47 They met in the cemetery because they wished to be close to their dead brethren.48 It was their belief that to share a meal at a cemetery of a martyr was to commemorate him and to worship in his company.49

Since the bodies of the "holy" martyrs resided there, Christian burial places came to be viewed as "holy spaces."50 The Christians then began to build small monuments over these spaces—especially over the graves of famous saints.51 Building a shrine over a burial place and calling it "holy" was also a pagan practice.52

In Rome, the Christians began to decorate the catacombs (underground burial places)53 with Christian symbols. So art became associated with sacred spaces. Clement of Alexandria (150-215) was one of the first Christians advocating the visual arts in worship.54
(Parenthetically, the cross as an artistic reference for Christ's death cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine.55 The crucifix, an artistic representation of the Savior attached to the cross, made its first appearance in the fifth century.56 The custom of making the "sign of the cross" with one's hands dates back to the second century.)57

At about the second century, the Christians began to venerate the bones of the saints, regarding them as holy and sacred. This eventually gave birth to relic collecting.58 Reverence for the dead was the most powerful community-forming force in the Roman Empire.59 Now the Christians were absorbing it into their own faith.60

In the late second century there was a shift in how the Lord's Supper was viewed. The Supper had devolved from a full meal to a stylized ceremony called "Holy Communion."61  By the fourth century, this trend became ridiculous. The cup and the bread were seen as producing a sense of awe, dread, and mystery. So much so that the churches in the East placed a canopy over the altar-table62 where the bread and cup sat.63 (In the 16th century, rails were placed upon the altar-table.64 The rails signified that the altar-table was a holy object only to be handled by holy persons—i.e., the clergy!)65

So by the third century, the Christians not only had sacred spaces. They also had sacred objects. (They would soon develop a sacred priesthood.) In all of this, the second and third-century Christians began to assimilate the magical mindset that characterized pagan thinking.66 All of these factors made the Christian terrain ready for the man who would be responsible for creating church buildings.

(Pagan Christianity, chpt. 3, The Church Building; Inheriting the Edifice Complex, pgs. 104-107.  Frank Viola)




Notes;



42.   Ante Pacem, pp. 83, 143-144, 167.
43 Christian History, Volume XII, No. 1, Issue 37, p. 2.
44. Ibid.,?. 31.
45 Ante Pacem, p. 65; Johannes Quasten, Music and Worship in Pagan & Christian Antiquity (Washington D.C.: National Association of Pastoral Musicians, 1983), pp. 153-154, 168-169.
46 Music and Worship in Pagan & Christian Antiquity, pp. 162-168. Tertullian (160-225) demonstrates the relentless efforts of the Christians to do away with the pagan custom of the funeral procession. Yet the Christians succumbed to it. Christian funeral rites, which drew heavily from pagan forms, begin to appear in the third century (David W. Bercot, ed., A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Peabody Hendrickson, 1998, p. 80; Everett Ferguson, ed., Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, New York: Garland Publishing, 1990, p. 163). Praying for the dead seems to have been born around the second century. Tertullian tells us that it was a common practice in his day (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Third Edition, p. 456). See also Frank Senn's Christian Worship and Its Cultural Setting (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1983), p. 41.
47 Ante Pacem, p. 83.
48 Christian History, Volume XH, No. 1, Issue 37, p. 35; From Temple to Meeting House, pp. 168-172.
49 Christian History, Volume XJJ, No. 1, Issue 37, p. 35; Josef A. Jungmann, S.J., The Early Liturgy: To the Time of Gregory the Great (Notre Dame: Notre Dame Press, 1959), p. 141.
50 Protestant Worship and Church Architecture, p. 60.
51 These monuments would later be transformed into magnificent church buildings.
52 The Early Liturgy, p. 178; From Temple to Meeting House, pp. 164-167.
53 Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church: Volume 2 (Michigan: Eerdmans, 1910), p. 292. "The use of catacombs lasted about three centuries, from the end of the second to the end of the fifth" (Ante Pacem, p. 84). Contrary to popular belief, there is not a shred of historical evidence that Roman Christians hid in the catacombs to escape persecution. They met there to be close to the dead saints (Christian History, Volume XH, No. 1, Issue 37, p. 35).
54 Christian History, Volume XH, No. 1, Issue 37, p. 30.
55 Ante Pacem, p. 27. "Jesus does not suffer or die in pre-Constantinian art There is no cross symbol, nor any equivalent" (p. 56). Philip Schaff says that following Constannne's victory over Maxentius in A.D. 312, crosses were seen on helmets, bucklers, crowns, etc. (History of the Christian Church: Volume 2, p. 270).
56 Ante Pacem, p. 165.
57 History of the Christian Church: Volume 2, pp. 269-270.
58 A relic is the material remains of a saint after his death as well as any sacred object which has been in contact with his body. The word "relic" comes from the Latin word reliquere, meaning "to leave behind." The first evidence of the veneration of relics appears around A.D. 156 in the Martyrium Polycarpi. In this document, the relics of Polycarp are considered more valuable than precious stones and gold (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Third Edition, p. 1379); Father Michael Collins and Matthew A. Price, The Story of Christianity (DK Publishing, 1999), p. 91; The Early Liturgy, pp. 184-187. " Ante Pacem, p. 91.
60 From Temple to Meeting House, pp. 168-172.
61 See Chapter 8 for details.
62 This is the table where the holy communion was placed. The altar-table signifies what is offered to God (the altar) and what is given to man (the table). Protestant Worship and Church Architecture, p. 40. Side altars did not come into use until Gregory the Great (The History of Christianity: Volume 3, p. 550).
63 Protestant Worship and Church Architecture, p. 63.
64 Ibid., p. 42.
65 In the fourth century, the laity was forbidden to go to the altar. Edwin Hatch, The Growth of Church Institutions (Hodder and Stoughton, 1895), pp. 214-215.
66 Norman Towar Boggs, The Christian Saga (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1931), p. 209.

[CSloan]

Great information Volkmar.

Unfortunately everyplace it says Christians should be Catholics.

[Volkmar]

Great information Volkmar.

Unfortunately everyplace it says Christians should be Catholics.

Actually, within the larger context of that chapter (and the book) it should probably say, "Baptist, CofC, Reformed, Episcopal, Methodist, ICC, etc.".

V

[CSloan]

Great information Volkmar.

Unfortunately everyplace it says Christians should be Catholics.

Actually, within the larger context of that chapter (and the book) it should probably say, "Baptist, CofC, Reformed, Episcopal, Methodist, ICC, etc.".

V

I really doubt it if it dates the origins of these practices before the 3^rd century.

Right about the rise of the Papacy.

[broach972]

I have been watching the argument progress.  It is clear that CSloan and Co. will believe what they want to believe.  As a Catholic, I am aware of what the Church teaches and its doctrines.  I have dealt with people like CSloan all of my life, even as a Protestant.  I call it the "Bob Jones" mentality.  If they believe the sky is yellow, then they will believe it is yellow and nothing will convince them otherwise.

I would like to thank Lee for his fairness and approach the the subject.  He has done his research.  I jut wish there were more non-Catholics like him.  It is nice to see comments from Mllevaleur.  I felt the calvary arrived when I saw her posts...and it is nice to see another Catholic other than myself fighting the battle.

The bottomline: prejudices and misconceptions will always exist and nothing that I say will change that.  We can go back and forth all you want.  You will cite Scripture and I will cite Scripture.  Catholicism has been targeted, misrepresented, maligned, and smeared for much of its 2000 year history.  Yet, it still prevails and will continue to survive.  I am proud to be Catholic and have absolutely no regrets over my decision to become one.

CSloan, you can debate and disagree all that you want.  I welcome a one on one.  But don't dare question my love for God or my "Christianness."  The last time I looked, the position of God has already been filled.  There is a God...but His name is not CSloan.

[CSloan]

CSloan, you can debate and disagree all that you want.  I welcome a one on one.  But don't dare question my love for God or my "Christianness."  The last time I looked, the position of God has already been filled.

My comments have never been aim at you, no matter how you try to make them be.

Your final comment shows who is casting personal judgments.

Mat 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  

[broach972]

My comments have never been aim at you, no matter how you try to make them be.

Your final comment shows who is casting personal judgments.

Mat 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  

Actually, your comments are aimed at me and every Catholic in the world who loves and obeys God.  I do take them personally because I am a Catholic.  I have studied the doctrines of the Catholic Church and have tested them against Scripture.  I have come to different conclusions than you have.  I truly know what the Church teaches and professes.  I do not rely on vicious and vindictive information that distorts the truth or just disregards it.  In your comments, anyone can see the absolute contempt and hatred towards the very Church I belong to...and that is an "evil" that just can't be tolerated. 

[broach972]

In Luke Jesus speaks of the dead not being able to communicate with the living. Luke 16:19-27

FTL

Just becuase they cannot speak to us does not mean that they cannot hear us.  Listening is not the same as communicating.

[kensington]

This is what Wikipedia says about it...  "Queen of Heaven (Latin Regina Caeli) is one of a number of titles used particularly in the Roman Catholic Church for Mary, the mother of Jesus. "-

Oh brother. 

In the Davidic Kingdom, the "Queen" was the mother of the king.

Who is the mother of our Savior and King? Mary...hence, she is the queen.

It's really not rocket science.

That does not mean we believe she is on equal footing with God. Protestants tend to have an "on/off" switch for holiness...you're either a Christian/holy or you're not. No spectrum of holiness exists for them, all Christians are equal, to "raise" one above the other is seen as bad, because to them, only two levels exist...Christian, and Deity. If they see us raising anyone above other Christians, they automatically think we're raising them to the level of Deity. Well, think that all you want, but the simple fact is, we're not.

For Catholics, we believe there is a spectrum there, there are lots of saints who are holier than I am, who provide good examples, who followed Christ and point to Him and encourage us to follow Christ as well. Mary is the epitome of how we should follow Christ. "Be it done to me according to your will." This is what we should all be saying to God. We honor her just as the scriptures say she would be honored, "all nations will call you blessed."

Just because YOU have an "on/off switch" idea of holiness doesn't mean we do. We can honor someone as holy without honoring them as deity, completely different things for us.

Ummm.... She said she would be called blessed... she DID NOT Say people would pray to her, or that she could answer prayers, or that people would bow down to satues of her and worship...  I am called a blessed woman also.

Its not the same thing as what the Catholic church has going on.

And Mary NEVER implied that she for one moment thought it should be or would be.

[kensington]

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

We ask saints to pray for us, just like we ask family members to pray for us. Ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? Watch out, you've got a mediator other than Jesus, then, better repent! And no more asking family and friends to pray for you, only Jesus is allowed since he's the one and only mediator.

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

You say Jesus is the ONLY mediator...but then ask family and friends to pray for you...what a contradiction! Get the indication?

Family and friends are living here on earth with us, we are not to seek the dead for anything, as Saul found out trying to seek Samuel.

FTL

This topic has been beaten to death elsewhere before, so I'm not going to get into it.

My point is simply that if you want to disagree, fine, but don't misrepresent what we believe. The above analogy explains how we see asking saints to pray for us. There is no voodoo involved, I'm  not trying to get a response through tarot cards from magic spirits, I'm simply asking a fellow Christian to pray for me. If that's against Christ being our one mediator, so is asking family to pray for you.

Like I said, not looking for agreement here, just explaining our POV as Catholics.

But, Jesus said himself that there is a divide between the dead and the living, and it can't be crossed.

And that "on/off" switch you spoke of.. Do you  REALLY think that you are that much more ARRIVED than the everyday born again believer, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ??

Because, that is what I am.  But, of course... I am not Catholic, so I probably am not nearly as enlightened as you are??  I doubt your biblical education is any more indepth than mine. Really. 

I've spent 21 years seeking, asking, and discussing this with Catholics, including teachers, pastors and priests.  Sittiing in masses, attending the classes, talking to the people, listening to the prayers and the explinatioins, even the "apologetic"... I haven't drawn my conlusions lightly. 

I'm sorry if you are personally offeneded, but you did wander into a "theology" discussion.

[kensington]

I call it the "Bob Jones" mentality"

Really? And yet you let on you are so insulted that we call your practices, "idolatry"... Go figure. 

And still, you have never answered my question... and neither did Mllevaleur ..... WHY OH WHY?  If this is so true about Mary worship not being right...

Aren't any of you out trying to convert your people's to the truth. Why do we not hear of the meetings to "straigten out" the BAD Catholics you speak of.  Idolatry is a sin, if my sister or brother was stealing, I would tell them that. I would if they were breaking any of the commandments... WHY OH WHY has your churches, not demanded the pupit to make this "NO WORSHIP" a teaching?  Do you not care that half of your religion is in error to the WORD OF GOD?

You are proud to be Catholic, but you are not sharing the REAL secret with your brothers and sisters who are trying to be faithful.  Get on the stick and help them. Proclaim the TRUTH about idol worship in your sanctuaries and your homes... stop turning a religious head to that fact.   

Poor dumb BAD Catholics... Who is going to help them... Certainly not the Protestants, for goodness sakes, they have their "Holy" switch turned off.  

[James Rondon]

By the way, regardless of the direction that this thread has taken, "Chick Tracts" deal with more than just Catholicism.

[CSloan]

I call it the "Bob Jones" mentality"

Who is Bob Jones anyways?

Can't be any worse than Builder Bob...

[James Rondon]

My kids used to watch Bob the Builder.

[kensington]

I call it the "Bob Jones" mentality"

Who is Bob Jones anyways?

Can't be any worse than Builder Bob...

I think he used to teach Math... or something.

There is a Bob Jones University.  They have a MATH cirriculum for homeschoolers. Past that, I couldn't tell you. But, evidently it is considered an insult to be him, as you notice the creative way in which we were all called "Bob Jones".  So you think the Bob Jones people are going to drink Kool-aid? 

I guess as long as they are not praying to Mary, they will still be GOOD. Right?

[kensington]

Do you think the Catholics stalk this "Bob Jones" guy?  I mean how is it they don't know that half their religion is practicing idolatry,    nor do they want to do ANYTHING about it, and yet... They know this guy and his mentality well enough to liken us who are trying to enlighten their faithful to him.   

[James Rondon]

I guess as long as they are not praying to Mary, they will still be GOOD. Right?

"There is none good but one, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17; Mar. 10:18; Luk. 18:19)

[kensington]

I guess as long as they are not praying to Mary, they will still be GOOD. Right?

"There is none good but one, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17; Mar. 10:18; Luk. 18:19)

Ummm... That was sarcasm... I was remembering when broach said that those who worship Mary are "BAD" catholics.   

[James Rondon]

With all of this discussion of Catholicism, it is a truth that definitely needed quoting, regardless.

[kensington]

With all of this discussion of Catholicism, it is a truth that definitely needed quoting, regardless.

Indeed...


"There is none good but one, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17; Mar. 10:18; Luk. 18:19)

[kensington]

Mary is the epitome of how we should follow Christ.

No sister, she is not, Christ was and is, and always will be the "epitome" of how to follow Him.

To say anything else is to say He was not the ONLY sinless one.  And He was.  He was the ONLY one who was ever sinless and who could be the Blood Sacrifice for sin.

BTW... Christ is the Holy ONE.  The rest of us are "sanctified" or set apart as Holy by Him.  And what He did at Calvary. 

[James Rondon]

[kensington]

I'm not done..

And would you people PLEASE take the Savior down off of the cross!!  He died, and was buried and rose from the dead, He is seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for you and me.

If He is still hanging on the cross.. "We are hopeless and lost". PERIOD.

[kensington]

Oh... hey.. Thanks.     I appreciate all the encouragment I can get!

[janine]

The mere fact that you have condemned an entire sect

So, you believe that Roman Catholicism is a sect?

What's the phrase?  Freudian Slip?
V

That would be the one.

I knew they had to wear something under those cassocks...

[janine]

The only difference between Catholic idolatry and any other idolatry any one of us might slip into is, they do it with statues.

And you can find a lot of truth in Chick Tracts, you really can.  No doubt there are many who've decided to check out this "God" person because of them.

But you have to put on gloves and tweeze it out of there, as if pulling gems out of a dog poopie.

Over all, in general, Chick Tracts look like sensationalist religious porn to me.

[ollie]

This is what Wikipedia says about it...  "Queen of Heaven (Latin Regina Caeli) is one of a number of titles used particularly in the Roman Catholic Church for Mary, the mother of Jesus. "-

Oh brother. 

In the Davidic Kingdom, the "Queen" was the mother of the king.

Who is the mother of our Savior and King? Mary...hence, she is the queen.

It's really not rocket science.

That does not mean we believe she is on equal footing with God. Protestants tend to have an "on/off" switch for holiness...you're either a Christian/holy or you're not. No spectrum of holiness exists for them, all Christians are equal, to "raise" one above the other is seen as bad, because to them, only two levels exist...Christian, and Deity. If they see us raising anyone above other Christians, they automatically think we're raising them to the level of Deity. Well, think that all you want, but the simple fact is, we're not.

For Catholics, we believe there is a spectrum there, there are lots of saints who are holier than I am, who provide good examples, who followed Christ and point to Him and encourage us to follow Christ as well. Mary is the epitome of how we should follow Christ. "Be it done to me according to your will." This is what we should all be saying to God. We honor her just as the scriptures say she would be honored, "all nations will call you blessed."

Just because YOU have an "on/off switch" idea of holiness doesn't mean we do. We can honor someone as holy without honoring them as deity, completely different things for us.

It is bothersome for me that the thought that what we do or say in the Christ can make one Christian more holy than another, thus lifted to a differing level of holiness and proclaimed a saint. Such seems humanistic and bringing God into how humans might like it to be in human terms. It seems a respecting of persons. Such is not from what I read of the Christ and those He adds to His church.

Our holiness does not come from us but we receive sanctification, are made holy through Jesus the Christ. Man can not proclaim one Christian more holy than another Christian. Only God through The Christ can make holy and it is a holiness received by all believers and one is not more holy than another. All in Christ are saints, sanctified, lifted to sainthood.

ollie

[Big Mike Lewis]

Amen!

I checked out the Chick tracts.  Utter garbage.  Filth.  Trash.  You cannot justify bad behavior with other bad behavior.  Catholics have their problems just as the rest of Christendom does.  The good news is that Jesus shed his blood to save us anyway.  Some of that stuff was just made up...the Eucharist connected to sun god worship?  In the words of John Stossel, "give me a break".

[mllevaleur]

It is bothersome for me that the thought that what we do or say in the Christ can make one Christian more holy than another, thus lifted to a differing level of holiness and proclaimed a saint. Such seems humanistic and bringing God into how humans might like it to be in human terms. It seems a respecting of persons. Such is not from what I read of the Christ and those He adds to His church.

Our holiness does not come from us but we receive sanctification, are made holy through Jesus the Christ. Man can not proclaim one Christian more holy than another Christian. Only God through The Christ can make holy and it is a holiness received by all believers and one is not more holy than another. All in Christ are saints, sanctified, lifted to sainthood.

ollie

Ollie, I'll answer you because I know you, at least, won't resort to mocking my faith and will actually listen to my POV, even if you don't agree with it.

Our holiness does not come from us but we receive sanctification, are made holy through Jesus the Christ.

Absolutely positively!!! I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought otherwise? All grace, all holiness comes from God alone, we do nothing to earn it, we do nothing to "deserve" it as if God is in debt to us somehow. Not at all...but that is a different issue than whether or not there are "levels" of holiness, if you will. Of course all in Christ are saints! But that doesn't mean they are necessarily equal in holiness.

Who am I to argue with God if He has decided to give someone else more grace than me? It does not make him a respector of persons if HE chose to do so of His own will.  And if someone is a good and faithful servant, it does not make him a respector of persons to reward that person with more grace. (That doesn't mean the person "deserves" it, God is just such a loving Father that He often gives us extras!) God gives us grace, which enables us to do good works (grace ALWAYS come first and is ALWAYS the origin of any good work we do, God works through us), and when we cooperate with this grace, he gives us even more. He rewards his own grace with more grace. This is how we see it...it is not at all something we "deserve" or "earn" or in any way put God in our debt. It is God giving grace freely and generously...and to some He decides to give more than others. That's His choice! I haven't seen any scriptures that say "God only gives out equal portions of grace to everyone, everyone is equally holy, and no one is holier than anyone else." In fact, I see several examples of people being held up as examples of righteousness for others to imitate. This is why the angel's greeting to Mary, "Hail Mary, FULL of grace" is so significant to us, because being completely filled with God's grace makes one Holy.

Paul says himself that we are to imitate him, as he imitates Christ. That is how we look to saints, as examples of how to follow Christ.

Anyway...I hope that makes sense. I'm not really out to convince anyone to agree with me, just trying to explain what we believe and why.

[Barabbas]

Amen!

I checked out the Chick tracts.  Utter garbage.  Filth.  Trash.  You cannot justify bad behavior with other bad behavior.  Catholics have their problems just as the rest of Christendom does.  The good news is that Jesus shed his blood to save us anyway.  Some of that stuff was just made up...the Eucharist connected to sun god worship?  In the words of John Stossel, "give me a break".

[Lee Freeman]

Lee.... you just posted they stated that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man... and yet, admitted that they pray to Mary and the saints to ask Jesus to pray.

How can they pray to someone who can't pray for them? 

By your own statement you posted, you contridicted what they teach and what they actually do. 

They say Jesus is the ONLY mediator... but they pray to Mary and the Saints....  Get the indication?

They make a distinction between Jesus' role as the sole mediator of salvation and the role of the saints as mediators between Jesus/God/the Spirit on behalf of Christians. As Catholic theology holds, Jesus is our sole redeemer but NOT our sole intercessor. Only Jesus can save us, but Mary and the other saints can pray for us:

It is objected that the invocation of saints is opposed to the unique mediatorship of Christ Jesus. There is indeed "one mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus". But He is our mediator in His quality of our common Redeemer; He is not our sole intercessor nor advocate, nor our sole mediator by way of supplication.

So I see no contradiction in what the RCC is saying. Again, I'm not defending this theology, only trying to explain it as accurately and fairly as possible. If we're going to critique something we should know as much about it as possible before we do so and when we do critique it, critique what it actually teaches rather than what we think or have heard it teaches.

Pax.

[mllevaleur]

And that "on/off" switch you spoke of.. Do you  REALLY think that you are that much more ARRIVED than the everyday born again believer, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ??

Because, that is what I am.  But, of course... I am not Catholic, so I probably am not nearly as enlightened as you are??  I doubt your biblical education is any more indepth than mine. Really. 

I've spent 21 years seeking, asking, and discussing this with Catholics, including teachers, pastors and priests.  Sittiing in masses, attending the classes, talking to the people, listening to the prayers and the explinatioins, even the "apologetic"... I haven't drawn my conlusions lightly. 

I'm sorry if you are personally offeneded, but you did wander into a "theology" discussion.

My my...why the need for such defensiveness? I never said any of those things you just implied I did, that I think I'm more knowledgeable about the bible or more "arrived" or enlightened or any such thing. I'm quite disappointed with the lack of charity in your post. :*-( I'm simply trying to explain my beliefs. I didn't think the theology area meant we left charity at the door.

There is one thing I'm going to explain, and then I'll be done here as I know from experience that those who have already made up their mind about what Catholics believe aren't usually very interested in listening to what a Catholic has to say on the matter.

WHY OH WHY?  If this is so true about Mary worship not being right...

Aren't any of you out trying to convert your people's to the truth. Why do we not hear of the meetings to "straigten out" the BAD Catholics you speak of.  Idolatry is a sin, if my sister or brother was stealing, I would tell them that. I would if they were breaking any of the commandments... WHY OH WHY has your churches, not demanded the pupit to make this "NO WORSHIP" a teaching?  Do you not care that half of your religion is in error to the WORD OF GOD?

Catholics do not see asking Mary to pray for us, even with a visual aid in front of us (a picture or a statue) as worship. Therefore, there is nothing to "straighten out" in this instance, because there is no statue-worship or idolatry going on.

I understand that you have a hard time seeing the distinction between using a statue/image as a visual aid, and actually thinking the statue in front of you is some kind of God, but most Catholics do not. It's like knowing the difference between talking to your deceased mother that you miss while looking at a picture of her, and talking to the real person...most people can tell the difference there, and just use the picture as a visual reminder. We simply like to have visual reminders of our family in Christ as well as our biological family.

Are there Catholics out there who go too far and DO think their statue of Mary is some magical thing that has powers in and of itself, or who think that Mary is equal to God? It's possible, though I've yet to meet one since my conversion. But the thing is, my version of "going too far with Mary" and your version of "going too far with Mary" are two very different things. You're asking to get rid of all statues and prayers, period, and saying "If you admit there are some people 'going too far,' why aren't you trying to stop them?" I think in your head, you probably mean, "If you admit that people using statues and praying to Mary is going too far, then why aren't you trying to stop them?" To this I say, I don't admit that, because I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I do admit there may be people who "go too far," but my understanding of that phrase is more along the lines of treating a statue as a magic object, or putting Mary on equal footing with God. I would certainly speak out against that if I saw anyone doing it. So far, I have not personally seen it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist...but I don't believe it's quite the huge problem that many non-Catholics think it is, because they often see "Mary worship" where there is none because of their lack of understanding of our usage of visual aids and such.

So, if you're expecting the Church to tell people to take the statues down and stop praying to saints, that's not going to happen, because we don't see anything wrong with statues and prayers, because we have different ideas of what it means to venerate a saint, and what it means to worship God. Worship of God is MUCH higher than any veneration of a saint.

By the way, this article might be of some interest. It's from a Catholic professor in Puerto Rico who did a survey of Catholics to see how many of them thought Mary was equal to God. Unfortunately, he did find some. As he says, the answer is to explain what the Church actually teaches (that Mary is NOT equal to God) better to them.

And that, I think, will be my final post in this thread. I'm always happy to explain my faith to those who are willing to listen, and who can be kind and fair and charitable in the process (like Lee, for instance), even when they disagree. But when things get ugly, I find no reason to subject myself to mocking and insults and lies about my faith. I get plenty of that daily from sources all around me...the only reason I perservere is because of God's grace and my sincere belief that this is where God led me.

Pax Vobiscum