I hear alot of criticism of catholic church, but

[bib89bib89]

 i would like to know what the mainstream criticisms of the protestant church are?
You know like, peeople always say "catholics pray to mary" or "they think the pope is infallible" etc etc,  --so what are the common criticisms of the protestants?
(btw im asking out of curiosity, not to throw mud)

[Bon Voyage]

i would like to know what the mainstream criticisms of the protestant church are?
You know like, peeople always say "catholics pray to mary" or "they think the pope is infallible" etc etc,  --so what are the common criticisms of the protestants?
(btw im asking out of curiosity, not to throw mud)

There isn't a "protestant church."

[normfromga]

I think that, while not so openly (currently), the Catholic Church tends to respond in kind to criticisms by "Protestants."

I say "in kind" because they probably have little negative to say about those who have been swallowed up into the ecumenical movement.  They figure that all these churches will eventually discover that all their "protest" was due to a misunderstanding, or as a reaction to some unfortunate decrees by some pope with personal issues, and thus no further "reform

[kamakaz]

and by the 'one true church' you are referring to Christ's Church right? and not the catholic church. There is no denomination or division, there is one church and one church only, and Jesus is its chief corner stone and high priest. I attend what would be considered a Baptist church but if someone would ask me, i simply say i am a Christian and if they inquire further I say non-denom and explain what I just wrote.

BTW i am tired of all the bashing of any church or denom, we are to love and respect one another. asking a legitimate question is one thing, but do it with respect.

[mistergus]

BTW i am tired of all the bashing of any church or denom, we are to love and respect one another. asking a legitimate question is one thing, but do it with respect.

I see no need to offer respect to a (Roman Catholic) church which intends to take away our religious freedoms at their first opportunity.

Remember, this is from their own doctrines and official positions. 

Robert G

[spurly]

i would like to know what the mainstream criticisms of the protestant church are?
You know like, peeople always say "catholics pray to mary" or "they think the pope is infallible" etc etc,  --so what are the common criticisms of the protestants?
(btw im asking out of curiosity, not to throw mud)

Getting back to the original intent of this thread, some of the common criticisms of the Protestant church are our lack of unity, our turning away from tradition - even good traditions, our low view of the church (at least in the eyes of the Catholics and the Orthodox) just to name a few.  Some of these criticism have merit - especially the first two.  There is way too much division among protestants and we have the bad tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to tradition and the teachings of those who have gone before us.

[broach972]

I see no need to offer respect to a (Roman Catholic) church which intends to take away our religious freedoms at their first opportunity.

Remember, this is from their own doctrines and official positions. 

Robert G

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

[James Rondon]

There is way too much division among protestants and we have the bad tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to tradition and the teachings of those who have gone before us.

We need to be careful not to give heed to the spirit of reactionism.

[mistergus]

I see no need to offer respect to a (Roman Catholic) church which intends to take away our religious freedoms at their first opportunity.

Remember, this is from their own doctrines and official positions. 

Robert G

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

You obviously haven't read the Batsell Barrett Baxter tract on the other thread.

Robert G

[ravenlorre]

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

You obviously haven't read the Batsell Barrett Baxter tract on the other thread.

Robert G
[/quote]

So why should anyone care what a Church of Christ leader thinks about the Catholic Church?

I thought this thread was supposed to be about criticism of Protestant theology?

blessings

[Volkmar]

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

You obviously haven't read the Batsell Barrett Baxter tract on the other thread.

Robert G

So why should anyone care what a Church of Christ leader thinks about the Catholic Church?

I thought this thread was supposed to be about criticism of Protestant theology?

blessings

Protestants do theology??  When did that start??      


V

[spurly]

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

You obviously haven't read the Batsell Barrett Baxter tract on the other thread.

Robert G

So why should anyone care what a Church of Christ leader thinks about the Catholic Church?

I thought this thread was supposed to be about criticism of Protestant theology?

blessings

That was the original intent, but when things get too close to home people like to change the subject.

[kamakaz]

BTW i am tired of all the bashing of any church or denom, we are to love and respect one another. asking a legitimate question is one thing, but do it with respect.

I see no need to offer respect to a (Roman Catholic) church which intends to take away our religious freedoms at their first opportunity.

Remember, this is from their own doctrines and official positions. 

Robert G

then I would have to question if you are a true follower of Christ, and if so, are you living the great command as He has said. Why worry about something that is not your business? Is it not God's church and hence, Gods business? We have no right or excuse to bash anyone, not even a satan worshiper. For how can we pursuade them of the love of Christ if we are showing them hate as an example. And is your denomination and church already reached perfection??? why do you point of the spec of dust in your brothers eye (catholic) while all along ignoring the log that is in yours, first go and remove the log in your eye and you will be able to see more clearly to help your brother remove the spec. Do not judge, for with the same measue, so shall you be judged.
So you passing judgement is bringing judgement to yourself. I am sure your church is making its share of mistackes and sin. If it is a church in america it may even be sound asleep. BTW I am not a Catholic, nor do I agree with all there ideas, but I fear no man, or church movement, is not God is control anymore? Is He grown old and weak and can no longer inforce His will?

[normfromga]

I see no need to offer respect to a (Roman Catholic) church which intends to take away our religious freedoms at their first opportunity.

Remember, this is from their own doctrines and official positions. 

Robert G

As a Catholic, I can only think of one response to this.....

Well, being as you are a Catholic who is obviously in a good mood, what is your response to my answer?

Am I too harsh in saying that the Catholic Church is, even to this day, highly critical of most Protestant denominations, especially those who are highly critical of beliefs and practices not supported by Scripture?

[don has a plan]

On a personal note, Anglicans/Episcopalians (my faith) took great exception when the Pope refused to acknowledge us as a 'church' or even a branch of the church.  Rather, we are an 'ecclesial community'.  Sort of a semi-church, I suppose.

I have no use for people or institutions that assume themselves to have a monopoly on truth, be it Catholicism, fundamentalism, or most any other kind of -ism.

[Wayfarer]

Protestants do theology??  When did that start??   


V

They do some sort of theology. What they really need is Paterology (proper theology).

[Jon-Marc]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants. In the military my original dog tags classified me as a Protestant, and then someone wised up and gave me new ones that said Baptist.

The criticism I've heard of Christians is that we are too judgmental because of our stand against homosexuality and other immorality. We are called out from the world and not called to continue to be a part of it, or to compromise with it.

The guy who propositioned me said, "I believe that God accepts as I am." Well, yes He does, and then he will change you after He saves you. He does not say, "Come onto me and hang onto your sin."

The biggest problem with the Christian church (in my opinion) is the lack of unity. We are separated over insignificant differences, or by no more than a different church name. One Baptist church sometimes won't associate with another Baptist church because of not being a part of their 'affiliation". I'm sure God is not pleased with such behavior.

[kamakaz]

i think you are right. Jesus was clear when He called us to be one church body

[VerbumReale]

Protestants do theology??  When did that start??   


V

They do some sort of theology. What they really need is Paterology (proper theology).

Please enlighten us. What is "proper theology??" Is it just believing what the Pope commands you to believe??

[VerbumReale]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants. In the military my original dog tags classified me as a Protestant, and then someone wised up and gave me new ones that said Baptist.

The criticism I've heard of Christians is that we are too judgmental because of our stand against homosexuality and other immorality. We are called out from the world and not called to continue to be a part of it, or to compromise with it.

The guy who propositioned me said, "I believe that God accepts as I am." Well, yes He does, and then he will change you after He saves you. He does not say, "Come onto me and hang onto your sin."

The biggest problem with the Christian church (in my opinion) is the lack of unity. We are separated over insignificant differences, or by no more than a different church name. One Baptist church sometimes won't associate with another Baptist church because of not being a part of their 'affiliation". I'm sure God is not pleased with such behavior.

The biggest problem is that some seem to believe we have to seek visble unity and when we don't have it than rather than actually seeking to have a dialogue with people from other traditions, some sit around and say why can't "we" (although they actually mean everybody else) be more united and less divisive?

True ecumenecalism is one that seeks a common confession in Christ, but doesn't feel the need to seek an institutionally united church.

Also I would point out that many of the separations are not as insignificant as you think. In my current denomination, the ELCA( http://www.elca.org/ ) there are some who are seeking for approval of blessing of same-sex unions and ordination of practicing homosexuals. It hasn't happened yet but I fear there is a good chance it may happen  at our next churchwide assemby in 2009.  If that happens there is a very good chance there may be a split, and a good chance that I may be among those who leave the denomination.

I am a part of a reform group called Word Alone ( http://www.wordalone.org/ ) and we are working to maintain a biblical, confessional witness in the ELCA, which includes trying to prevent the ELCA from adopting the blessing of same-sex unions and ordaining of homsexuals. We are seen by many in the denomination as divisive troublemakers hell-bent on dividing the ELCA.  The Episcopal church is already close to splitting over this as they have already begun ordaining homosexuals and blessing of same-sex unions. If I have to choose between being divisive, and compromising my faithfulness to God's Word for the sake of visible unity, I'll stick with being divisive.

[spurly]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants.

Baptists churches are protestant.  However, like many people in the church of Christ they may want to disavow their heritage.

[kensington]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants. In the military my original dog tags classified me as a Protestant, and then someone wised up and gave me new ones that said Baptist.

The criticism I've heard of Christians is that we are too judgmental because of our stand against homosexuality and other immorality. We are called out from the world and not called to continue to be a part of it, or to compromise with it.

The guy who propositioned me said, "I believe that God accepts as I am." Well, yes He does, and then he will change you after He saves you. He does not say, "Come onto me and hang onto your sin."

The biggest problem with the Christian church (in my opinion) is the lack of unity. We are separated over insignificant differences, or by no more than a different church name. One Baptist church sometimes won't associate with another Baptist church because of not being a part of their 'affiliation". I'm sure God is not pleased with such behavior.

Yep... my husband is 23 years NAVY.. and his current dog tags say... "Born again Christian"... they sure do. He went to have them made special.  Personally, I am not a protestant. I am a Christian.

Many Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic Christians. So then... WHY?  If it is the NAME of Christ we carry... not the name "Church"... then why add the religion or denom at all?

When I want to speak to someone about LOVE or Christ or salvation or eternity... I do not say... I am a Churchian. I say, "I am a Christian".  For I am all about promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of protestant or catholic.  Ugh... 

[kensington]

PS... when I go in the military... I want dog tags that read, "Bible Thumper"... 

I've been called that many times.  I feel for some people, if I am not wearing that label in Heaven, they won't know me. 

[DCR]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants.

Baptists churches are protestant.  However, like many people in the church of Christ they may want to disavow their heritage.

I've started using the term "Post-Protestant" lately and believe that many may fall under that classification, IMO.

[trifecta]

My personal criticisms of Protestantism (I love Protestants and Catholics):

1) the "right" of any Christian to establish a church anytime or for whatever reason he/she wants --  They are protesting any the main Church, thus, the term.  Very individualistic "right" from a very individualistic culture.

2) from a low view to downright hostility toward the church.  The Church is Christ's bride.

3) the idea that no church has all the truth.  Why would Christ divide his body into so many parts and leave it to us to find bits of the truth in each of them?

4) the idea that somehow 20,000 denominations make up "one, holy, and apostolic church."   The only way to do this is to reduce the church to a group of believers who never meet, which, by definition, is not a church.  (Church means a gathering of believers.)

5) General disregard for church tradition.  Calvin and Zwingli decided to reinvent the church ignoring the contributions of those before them.  The worst example is the reduction of the real presence of communion into a memorial meal.  Apparently, the Protestant fathers knew better than Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and the witness of the church for 1600 years.

6) "the Bible alone."  The problem with this slogan (or any slogan) is that people think its true by itself.  It is not as catchy (or inspiring) to say "Reformation doctrine."  Soon people begin to believe the slogan and forget what they really believe in is an intrepretation of the Bible as well as a church tradition.   (Example of church tradition, the Trinity.)

7) belief in traditions but a refusal to admit they are traditions.  The result of point six is that Ps believe in something (an interpretation of scripture) that will not admit to because of a slogan.

8) the whole idea of "the Bible alone."  Jesus entrusted his church to the apostles, not to a book.  Moreover, the church had no Bible for 400 years. 

9) "Spiritualizing" of too many things.  The Incarnation is the joining of the physical and spiritual, not the separation.  Protestant thinkers want to separate the two.  For example, Ps refer to a "spiritual" church, which is some idealic idea of the Christians gathered in no physical way.

10) rampant individualism -  The idea that salvation is through a personal relationship with Christ.  People choosing among the church based on personal preferences. This is a result of the Reformation which decided that the church serves the individual (John Locke said this).  This was not the way the New Testament church thought.
 
11) formulas for salvation - You won't find the sinners' prayer, the Bridge, or being born again through these methods in the Bible, but Ps believe in the Bible alone.


Thanks for reading.  Sorry to be so cranky.


trifecta
(see below for my theological tendencies)

[normfromga]

Thanks for the input, Trifecta...

We may not agree on every point, but you definite give each of us pause.

(sure, we claim that we never "protested," but the RM was a Reformation Movement before it became a Restoration Movement, and we share more of the above mentioned traits than we may wish to admit.)

Hava Manna!

[VerbumReale]

I've never been to a "Protestant" church. I've always been Baptist, and that's all I know about. We are not Protestants. In the military my original dog tags classified me as a Protestant, and then someone wised up and gave me new ones that said Baptist.

The criticism I've heard of Christians is that we are too judgmental because of our stand against homosexuality and other immorality. We are called out from the world and not called to continue to be a part of it, or to compromise with it.

The guy who propositioned me said, "I believe that God accepts as I am." Well, yes He does, and then he will change you after He saves you. He does not say, "Come onto me and hang onto your sin."

The biggest problem with the Christian church (in my opinion) is the lack of unity. We are separated over insignificant differences, or by no more than a different church name. One Baptist church sometimes won't associate with another Baptist church because of not being a part of their 'affiliation". I'm sure God is not pleased with such behavior.

Yep... my husband is 23 years NAVY.. and his current dog tags say... "Born again Christian"... they sure do. He went to have them made special.  Personally, I am not a protestant. I am a Christian.

Many Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic Christians. So then... WHY?  If it is the NAME of Christ we carry... not the name "Church"... then why add the religion or denom at all?

When I want to speak to someone about LOVE or Christ or salvation or eternity... I do not say... I am a Churchian. I say, "I am a Christian".  For I am all about promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of protestant or catholic.  Ugh... 

And I think most Christians, be they Protestant, Catholic, Post-Protestant (whatever that is) do the same thing when they share their faith with non-believers.  I think most Christians will only point out their denomination when they know that they are among other Christians who already know that they are Christian, and it's not in a my denom is better than your denom way, it's just as a way of further expressing their faith.  I have been to churches of all sorts of different denominations and heard them speak of their evangelism efforts, and never have I heard any of them talking about going out and making people Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian etc. Their goal is the same, to proclaim the name of Christ and share His love.

I really think the only people who make a big deal out of the fact that we have different denominations are supposedly "non-denominational" Christians themselves. But the truth is there is no such thing as a truly "non-denominational" Christian. Some of you may belong to a church who has no connection to a national church body and so in a functional way you may not belong to a denomination. But chances are your church will have some sort of statement of what they believe regarding God, Jesus, the authority of scripture, baptism, communion etc. And in so doing they are setting themselves apart from other churches, and thus they are being denominational.

It is these supossedly "non-denominational" churches that tell people who have been baptised before but leave the church they grew up in and for whatever reason decide they want to become members of this non-denominational church, that they have to be re-baptised first because their first baptism was "ineffective." If being denominational can truly be equated with being divisive and self-righteous, then that is one of the most denominational practices in all of contemporary Christianity.

Also, I have never met a Catholic who would refer to themselves as a "Catholic-Christian." In fact most Catholics that I know would be appalled that anyone who considers themself a Catholic would feel like they had to add the term Christian to Catholic, as if there were some Catholics who aren't Christian. To Catholics, the terms Catholic and Christian are nearly synonomous.

[kamakaz]

i do not agree with the non-denom statement. Most non-denom;s want to Associate themselves to Christ as the head, as it should be and not to any man appointed denom or group.

[VerbumReale]

My personal criticisms of Protestantism (I love Protestants and Catholics):

1) the "right" of any Christian to establish a church anytime or for whatever reason he/she wants --  They are protesting any the main Church, thus, the term.  Very individualistic "right" from a very individualistic culture.

2) from a low view to downright hostility toward the church.  The Church is Christ's bride.

3) the idea that no church has all the truth.  Why would Christ divide his body into so many parts and leave it to us to find bits of the truth in each of them?

4) the idea that somehow 20,000 denominations make up "one, holy, and apostolic church."   The only way to do this is to reduce the church to a group of believers who never meet, which, by definition, is not a church.  (Church means a gathering of believers.)

5) General disregard for church tradition.  Calvin and Zwingli decided to reinvent the church ignoring the contributions of those before them.  The worst example is the reduction of the real presence of communion into a memorial meal.  Apparently, the Protestant fathers knew better than Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and the witness of the church for 1600 years.

6) "the Bible alone."  The problem with this slogan (or any slogan) is that people think its true by itself.  It is not as catchy (or inspiring) to say "Reformation doctrine."  Soon people begin to believe the slogan and forget what they really believe in is an intrepretation of the Bible as well as a church tradition.   (Example of church tradition, the Trinity.)

7) belief in traditions but a refusal to admit they are traditions.  The result of point six is that Ps believe in something (an interpretation of scripture) that will not admit to because of a slogan.

8) the whole idea of "the Bible alone."  Jesus entrusted his church to the apostles, not to a book.  Moreover, the church had no Bible for 400 years. 

9) "Spiritualizing" of too many things.  The Incarnation is the joining of the physical and spiritual, not the separation.  Protestant thinkers want to separate the two.  For example, Ps refer to a "spiritual" church, which is some idealic idea of the Christians gathered in no physical way.

10) rampant individualism -  The idea that salvation is through a personal relationship with Christ.  People choosing among the church based on personal preferences. This is a result of the Reformation which decided that the church serves the individual (John Locke said this).  This was not the way the New Testament church thought.
 
11) formulas for salvation - You won't find the sinners' prayer, the Bridge, or being born again through these methods in the Bible, but Ps believe in the Bible alone.


Thanks for reading.  Sorry to be so cranky.


trifecta
(see below for my theological tendencies)

Point 8 exprssess a complete mischaracterization of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is actually based on a return to the church that had been entrusted to the apostles. It was entrusted to the apostles but not built upon the apostles it was built upon Christ and His Word, not upon men, not upon traditions, and definitely not upon some imagined church hierarchy. Part of the work that was entrusted to the apostles was writing down God's Word that had been expressed to them by and through Christ Jesus, for the benefit of the believers who would come after them and didn't have the benefit of being in the presence of Jesus, and thus we have the New Testament. But Sola Scriptura is not about seeing the Bible as some step-by-step way of doing church. It's about believing that the Holy Spirit speaks to all belivers through the the Word of Christ in scripture, and because it has been written down we are given a means by which we can evaluate the testimony, teaching and preaching of other belivers. It really just comes down to understanding that traditions are to be built upon scripture not the other way around.  

[VerbumReale]

i do not agree with the non-denom statement. Most non-denom;s want to Associate themselves to Christ as the head, as it should be and not to any man appointed denom or group.

You missed my point. Read the whole post. A church doesn't have to associate themselves with a group to behave in a denominational manner. Simply having a statement of beliefs that sets themselves apart from other churches is a denominational act.

Oh and non-denominational churches do not have the market cornered on confessing Christ as the head of their church. Any Christian denomination would confess the same thing. Simply belonging to a denomination is not akin to worshipping it or seeing some hierarchy as the head of the church.

I love these supposed "non-denominational" churches that piously sit around and point their finger at churches that belong to denominations and accuse them of being dvisive, all the while falsely accusing these churches of seeing the leader of their denom as the head of the church. In doing that they reveal themselves to be just as divisive and self-righteus as they accuse denominations of being. 

[kamakaz]

i do not agree with the non-denom statement. Most non-denom;s want to Associate themselves to Christ as the head, as it should be and not to any man appointed denom or group.

You missed my point. Read the whole post. A church doesn't have to associate themselves with a group to behave in a denominational manner. Simply having a statement of beliefs that sets themselves apart from other churches is a denominational act.

Oh and non-denominational churches do not have the market cornered on confessing Christ as the head of their church. Any Christian denomination would confess the same thing. Simply belonging to a denomination is not akin to worshipping it or seeing some hierarchy as the head of the church.

I love these supposed "non-denominational" churches that piously sit around and point their finger at churches that belong to denominations and accuse them of being dvisive, all the while falsely accusing these churches of seeing the leader of their denom as the head of the church. In doing that they reveal themselves to be just as divisive and self-righteus as they accuse denominations of being. 

I still disagree with you and everything in this post, except of course all denom's hopefuly claim Christ as the head. and there is as much or more finger pointing between different denoms then non-denoms as they try to dis-assosiate any kind of man-made labels or religion and focus solely on serving Christ. Speaking for myself, as a Christian (period) I do not waste time or energy picking the bones of denoms, if they confess Christ as Lord and Saviour that is good enough for me. (so what denom is this statement make me labeled?)

[Wayfarer]

Protestants do theology??  When did that start??   


V

They do some sort of theology. What they really need is Paterology (proper theology).

Please enlighten us. What is "proper theology??" Is it just believing what the Pope commands you to believe??

I am not a "Roman" catholic. No man commands me.
Trifecta summed up the Orthodox position nicely. 

[Wayfarer]

It was entrusted to the apostles but not built upon the apostles it was built upon Christ and His Word, not upon men, not upon traditions, and definitely not upon some imagined church hierarchy.

Let's test that with Sola Scriptura.

Eph 2:19   ¶   Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

   Eph 2:20      And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];


And "tradition".

2Th 3:6   ¶   Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2Th 2:15      Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Both oral and written tradition exists being passed on in the church from the beginning.

[kensington]

to the "non-denominational" thing.

There really is no such thing as "non-denominational".... Where a group of people meet and agree upon the rules, you havea  denomination.   

[spurly]

to the "non-denominational" thing.

There really is no such thing as "non-denominational".... Where a group of people meet and agree upon the rules, you havea  denomination.  

Shhhh.  Don't say that too loud around here!  You will shatter the glass houses some of us live in!