River Baptism

[Brian Kelley]

Alright, so I started my first topic in this forum!  I'll repeat the question.

Why do most churches these days choose not to baptize in rivers (or at least natural running water)?

[yogi bear]

Because of weather and because it is easier from the baptistery

[Bon Voyage]

Alright, so I started my first topic in this forum!  I'll repeat the question.

Why do most churches these days choose not to baptize in rivers (or at least natural running water)?

Because they like to do unauthorized things and they don't like to do things scripturally. 

[Jaime]

If we limit it to river baptism, is any river acceptable other than the Jordan.

[marc]

Why the Jordan?  It wasn't used on Pentecost.  The baptistries that were commonly found around Jerusalem included living water--water flowing in and out--according to archeologists.  Also, church fathers indicated that baptism was done in living water. 

[Robert Pate]

To many drownings. Have you ever stepped into a hole in a fast current?

[Jaime]

Why the Jordan?  It wasn't used on Pentecost.  The baptistries that were commonly found around Jerusalem included living water--water flowing in and out--according to archeologists.  Also, church fathers indicated that baptism was done in living water. 

Legalistically speaking, it was water that eventually found it's way to the Jordan drainage.

Yeah, I know that's a terrible argument, but hey I had to say something that sounded intelligent.

[marc]

Why the Jordan?  It wasn't used on Pentecost.  The baptistries that were commonly found around Jerusalem included living water--water flowing in and out--according to archeologists.  Also, church fathers indicated that baptism was done in living water. 

Legalistically speaking, it was water that eventually found it's way to the Jordan drainage.

Yeah, I know that's a terrible argument, but hey I had to say something that sounded intelligent.

I've told here about the man I used to go to church with who said that Jesus' blood was shed on the cross, flowed down and mixed with the groundwater, that this same water has been recycled and recirculated ever since and mixed with all the water of the Earth and, as a result, when we are baptized we are literally baptized into the blood of Christ, and that's why baptism saves.

Perhaps the only man I've ever known who taught literal baptismal regeneration.

[marc]

fwiw, here's what I said on the thread I referenced on the other thread (huh?).

I'd like to see a move back to baptism in living water.  When I was in Sydney, we baptized in the Pacific.  There's just something about being outside with the sky above you that makes you aware of the enormity of the One watching and reaching down.

[Jaime]

Why the Jordan?  It wasn't used on Pentecost.  The baptistries that were commonly found around Jerusalem included living water--water flowing in and out--according to archeologists.  Also, church fathers indicated that baptism was done in living water. 

Legalistically speaking, it was water that eventually found it's way to the Jordan drainage.

Yeah, I know that's a terrible argument, but hey I had to say something that sounded intelligent.

I've told here about the man I used to go to church with who said that Jesus' blood was shed on the cross, flowed down and mixed with the groundwater, that this same water has been recycled and recirculated ever since and mixed with all the water of the Earth and, as a result, when we are baptized we are literally baptized into the blood of Christ, and that's why baptism saves.

Perhaps the only man I've ever known who taught literal baptismal regeneration.

I thought I was weird? 

[Jaime]

fwiw, here's what I said on the thread I referenced on the other thread (huh?).

I'd like to see a move back to baptism in living water.  When I was in Sydney, we baptized in the Pacific.  There's just something about being outside with the sky above you that makes you aware of the enormity of the One watching and reaching down.

Just watch out if you hear the JAW'S theme!

[marc]

re the man I mentione earlier: He's a good guy, so I don't want to go into too many stories, but there are many stories.  For instance, he used to advise teenagers to frequent funerals, even if they didn't know the person in question.  He said he frequently stopped off at funeral homes whenever he saw a crowd and advised young people to get into this habit.

[Brian Kelley]

I think baptistries are fine and all.   I just figure, if you have a river, why not use it?

[Nevertheless]

Most of us don't have rivers running through our meeting places.

[Brian Kelley]

Most of us don't have rivers running through our meeting places.

Well no, but why not take a trip to a river?

[DCR]

Why the Jordan?  It wasn't used on Pentecost.  The baptistries that were commonly found around Jerusalem included living water--water flowing in and out--according to archeologists.  Also, church fathers indicated that baptism was done in living water. 

Legalistically speaking, it was water that eventually found it's way to the Jordan drainage.

Yeah, I know that's a terrible argument, but hey I had to say something that sounded intelligent.

::begin obnoxious comment::

Well, technically speaking, any water in the world might eventually find its way into the Jordan drainage.  The water from a baptistry in the US of A evaporates into the air.  And the atmospheric steering currents could conceivably draw the moisture halfway around the world to the eastern Mediterranean region of Palestine.  Then, the moisture could precipitate runoff into the Jordan River.

Hey, it could happen. 

Or, better yet... I wonder if a tiny micro percentage of the water found in any given baptistry was previously in the Jordan River before it evaporated and precipitated?   


::end obnoxious comment::

[l.a.providence]

gee,

now i feel bad for baptizing someone in a mudhole!  lol


just kidding...
man i never even heard of this topic.....
baptized a guy into a wave one time though in the carribbean.... this is true not a joke


wow... this topic can get legalistic....
don't think it matters!

historically, we don't have to be correct in all matters and opinions.....

let's ask, 'what is the jesus of today doing?' and if he's the same as yesterday, then we don't have to study about yesterday, just let jesus do his thing..... it'll end up the same!

[WileyClarkson]

Our stock tanks are built on creeks (mini river    ) that flow almost year round.  That means that the stock tanks are part of that mini river.  In my area of Texas, some churches do immerse in stock tanks, small lakes, etc that are fed and flow.  Only problem, if you are crazy enough to go into just about any of the stock tanks around here, you will come out come out smelling like the green floating moss that covers just about all stock tanks during the warmer months!  You might qualify as the green monster from the stock tank with an odor 

[peck]

This seems to be a fun topic..so,I'll jump right in...The topic not Wyles stock tank..

Some people in our old community many years ago had no baptistry and in winter they would be baptized in our cold cold creek in overcoats ...the body was more comfortable but the overcoats did not have a need to be baptized...forced into salvation..

God bless,Peck

[Jon-Marc]

Alright, so I started my first topic in this forum!  I'll repeat the question.

Why do most churches these days choose not to baptize in rivers (or at least natural running water)?

Because they have indoor water now and can baptist where the water is warm instead of freezing.

[Brian Kelley]

Yeah, but it'll be nice to know that we'll have some coats to wear when we get to Paradise.

[WileyClarkson]

Who says you have to be outside in the river or lake to be in cold water to be baptized.  When my oldest twin daughter decided to  be baptized, it was a fairly cool day.  Our little congregation was tight with money.  The heaters to the building and the baptistry were turned off during the week.  Well, guess what happened!  The baptistry heater had quit sometime previous to that day and no one realized it.  She was baptized in water that was probably close to the same temperature as it was out side.  I asked her if she wanted to wait and she said No!  So I baptized her that morning and that water was really cold!!!!!!!  The temp of the water went completly through the waders and my pants leg!!!!!!!  Needless to say, I was as ready to get out of that water as she was afterward and she was the one who really got the full brunt of the water temperature!

[peck]

I may be wrong but it seems that my memory is that some folks took the baptizing as sins really washed away..and were a little leary about being baptized with somebody else's sins in the water....Religion was very silly at times in the past..Even using more than one cup could divide a congregation....Of course today we have a perfect religious society..no weird stuff at all...

God bless,Peck

[l.a.providence]

would you be saved if you were baptized in someting besides water, but was water based?

like cool-aid?  lol

[Brian Kelley]

No, that's got the Kook-Aid Man's sins in it.

[Robert Pate]

Now I get it!  The guy that was baptized ahead of me was a real sinner.  I have been infected with his sins. It's all his fault.

[Brian Kelley]

You just have to make sure to boil the baptismal water for fifteen minutes to get all the sins out.

[Robert Pate]

Do you think the Catholic church could help with this?  They claim that they have Holy water.

[Brian Kelley]

You know the joke... they boiled the hell out of it.

[janine]

*snort*

Because of the Jewish background of the very first Christians, and the ideas they would have had about baptism -- it wasn't a new idea to them, John the Baptizer didn't invent it from scratch --

Because of the ideas they probably had about it and the access they would have had to the particular types of bathing places they would have had... Flowing natural water, or Roman-influenced Jewish bathing places, even ceremonial Jewish pools meant for Temple-type cleansing -- all "living" water --   

I have to say I really think the earliest Christians would have preferred water with a current.

I also have to say that I would think the arguments and reasoning behind it, if anyone ever came to me with it burdening their conscience -- they really felt we needed "living water" or else they couldn't feel comfortable with the baptisms being valid --

The arguments and reasoning behind sticking to the living water are at least as valid as the arguments and reasonings behind sticking to unleavened bread during Communion.

So if it ever happens that anyone I deal with has a conviction in this area, off to find some living water we will go.

[Cliftyman]

stagnant water could get just as living as running water if you want to get "biological" about it... 

We have a community baptistry built on a small creek up the road in Rhoda, KY (thats pronounced Rhody)... anyway all the baptist churches use it and lots of other denominations use it as well.

I was blessed to attend the baptism of my brother in law there last year.  There were about 20 people that went into that cold water on a March day and they all stood there shivering in it while the preacher baptized them one after another.

We all joined together and sang and prayed and I have to say it was really nice.

A lot of folks in the Church of Christ have intense problems with waiting to be baptized... but as my wife says continually... growing up they usually would wait until spring to baptize when the ice was gone or the water was warm enough not to give somebody a heart attack.....

Personally I understand that... but many do not who believe salvation comes the instant a person is put under the water.  The way I look at it if you feel that you need to do it right away... you need to... no matter how cold it is... or how far away the closest collection of water is.

I wonder too... what about the first Christian converts in the northern reaches of Europe?  I wonder what those Christians did when the gospel was brought to them and there were no heated baptistries?  Do you think thats when the polar bear club was formed... or do you believe those people waited till the ice broke?

Or is that when sprinkling became en vogue? 

[kamakaz]

insnt water from the tap living? I thought it was, when does it die?

also, now a days many lakes n rivers are polluted bad. i would not want to be baptized in the same bay that I was baptized in years back, I wouldnt even stick a toe in that watre today.

[WileyClarkson]

Cliftyman,

we haven't chatted in quite a while!  how's things with you?

lot of folks in the Church of Christ have intense problems with waiting to be baptized... but as my wife says continually... growing up they usually would wait until spring to baptize when the ice was gone or the water was warm enough not to give somebody a heart attack.....

Personally I understand that... but many do not who believe salvation comes the instant a person is put under the water.  The way I look at it if you feel that you need to do it right away... you need to... no matter how cold it is... or how far away the closest collection of water is.

I wonder too... what about the first Christian converts in the northern reaches of Europe?  I wonder what those Christians did when the gospel was brought to them and there were no heated baptistries?  Do you think thats when the polar bear club was formed... or do you believe those people waited till the ice broke?

In the late 2nd century and probably most of the 3rd Century, baptism was performed naked in rivers and streams.  The church would hold off on baptisms until a number were to be performed and those wanting to be baptized would have special teaching during that waiting period(my references don't say anything about cold weather baptism  ).  Children would be baptized first, followed by the females and then by males.  A naked deacon in the water would always assist the naked person being baptized (a very good reason for female deacons  ).  My references don't say why the practice ended but it lasted for a long time. The reference is to the Roman (catholic) church practices.

So, what your wife says about baptism waiting for warm weather has a very sound historical basis--about 1750 years ago of historical basis!

[peck]

Wiley ..would the crowd be larger when one of the movie stars back then were dunked...

And just for fun...Could we actually perform baptism's today in that fashion since we go by bible examples...

God bless,Peck

[WileyClarkson]

Peck,

I should have added my references also don't say why it started, but my guess is that it was somehow an outgrowth of the mikvah of the Jews.  Maybe because of the Jewish influence on the Gentile church after the destruction of the Temple and the Jews scattered.  The mikvah was also done sans clothes because the water by rabinical determination might not touch a part of the body if clothes were worn (legalism to the nth degree--sounds somewhat familiar  ).  That included in some cases the shaving of hair to facilitate the water touching every part of the skin and to make sure hair did not float to the surface (that was the job of the witness to make sure everypart of the body was below the surface.

In the baptismal practice of the late 2nd and 3rd Century, before the immersion, they would go through a time of prayer, bathing, and annointing with fragrent oil.  They would then shed their robes before entering the water with the deacon.  After the person being baptized had been immersed, they would be given fresh white robes to wear.  The actual practice was more involved than my simplistic explanation but I think my description is enough!

If we go by Biblical example that jesus prior to his ministry kept the law and practices of the Temple perfectly, Jesus' immersion which, when done by John, would have still been in keeping with the Jewish practice of the mikvah (if it hadn't I don't think there would have been such a ready acceptance of immersion for repentance by John), knowing that the Jews on Pentecost would have already known how the mikvah was done and might have been the same practice on Pentecost, quite honestly, it may be practice that would initiate a full scale riot in today's church!