The rich man and Lazarus

[MarkHooper]

Luke 16:19-31
Is this a literal or figurative story?     

[Jon-Marc]

There's been a lot of debate about that. Personally, I believe it's a true account, However, some believe it's just a parable. Even if it's just a parable, a parable is usually about a truth.

[bemark]

I have heard this before preached     That it is real because he names Lazarus but only Name's the rich man as the rich man


The Rich Man and Lazarus
   
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'

[bemark]

Our names are written in the Lambs book of life

[MarkHooper]

Is it possible the truth here is about the gentiles coming into the church? The rich  man  represents the Jewish people and the Lazarus the Gentiles.

Look at the symbolism of  verse 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

[Harold]

Luk 16:31  "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" (NIV)

So now what?

They don't believe. I think this is a HOLY Broadside from the Holy Spirit cannon at the heart of those who say they believe yet show no fruit of being so. One day there will be hell to pay.

FTL

[MarkHooper]

They don't believe. I think this is a HOLY Broadside from the Holy Spirit cannon at the heart of those who say they believe yet show no fruit of being so. One day there will be hell to pay.

Then how do you see yourself as the rich man or the baggar? Is the desire to be fed the fruit?


20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man's table.

[Jon-Marc]

I don't know how true it is, but I was told (more than once) that names are never used in a parable since it's a made-up story with a heavenly truth--and that if one is used it means it's true.

[James Rondon]

Is it possible the truth here is about the gentiles coming into the church? The rich  man  represents the Jewish people and the Lazarus the Gentiles.

Look at the symbolism of  verse 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

I think you're looking for something that's not there, and avoiding what the passage is actually teaching.

[James Rondon]

By the way, I have been teaching a series on Sundays entitled, "Where Are They Now?". Last week we did an in-depth expository of Luke chapter 16:19-31, demonstrating not only the truth of Hades from Jesus Himself, but also disspelling many of the errors that are taught with regard to what happens after one dies.

Here is an article I recently wrote, which was in our church bulletin this week, regarding said passage:

Remember...
By: James Rondon

Read Luke Chapter 16:19-31 

In chapter 16 of Luke's gospel, Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. In it, we are given a glimpse into the grave where we see Lazarus comforted, and the rich man tormented. From the details that Jesus gave us, we can know several things about the dead.

First of all, they are conscious. Many have erroneously asserted that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection, but what Jesus tells us here, and what we can see from a number of other passages in Scripture is that the dead are awake, and very much aware.

Not only are they aware of their surroundings, but they can also see, hear, speak and feel. Furthermore, they know who they are, and where they came from... The dead can "remember

[MarkHooper]

 James

I believe the context of this story is in verse 8

8 For the children of this world are more prudent in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light.

What does this verse mean?

This same comparison is made in the story of the rich man. Jesus speaking of Abraham's bosom was  to provoke the Pharisee the ones who loved money. What did the hearer of this story think was Jesus providing facts about hell and who is going there or is he saying you people are like the richman. Now who is the children of this world and who are the children of light? What I'm saying is the first story of the Servant (the Gentiles) speaks to the openess some will have in recieving Jesus. The rich  man is a story about how some will not be open to Jesus.

There is something to the fact that the richman recognizes Abraham it is because he is Jewish a pharisee a leader of the people he was a child of the light but Lazarus is not he a child of the world a gentile begging for a taste of God. Notice the richman ask send Lazarus

dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;

this is a hyperbole of the treatment dished out to Lazarus.

Abrahams though speaks of a divide that cannot be bridged a prophesy of the coming time when the Judism  will no longer be part of Gods salvation.

[James Rondon]

Huge stretch. Through this story Jesus is addressing the covetousness of the Pharisees (see vs. 14). Even so, there is no reason to believe that the story itself is not true, or that the places described do not actually exist. Jesus never used fables or falsehoods to convey spiritual truths (i.e. "There once was a magical dragon named Puff... so repent!"). Therefore, to believe that the story's description of hades is fantastical, or that the awareness and experiences of its occupants are merely devices to convey something completely metaphorical, is not only unnecessary but extremely unwise.

[MarkHooper]

Through this story Jesus is addressing the covetousness of the Pharisees (see vs. 14). Even so, there is no reason to believe that the story itself is not true, or that the places described do not actually exist.

Understanding this is a parable  makes the Characters and imagery have no need of reality. But if this is not a Parable and a real story then context means nothing. In fact we would have to rewrite the doctrines of heaven and Hell.

Is the distance between heaven and hell just big enough to have conversation with Abraham?
Are the flames cool enough a drop of water satisfies?

There are serious theological problems with this story if it true.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Understanding this is a parable  makes the Characters and imagery have no need of reality. But if this is not a Parable and a real story then context means nothing. In fact we would have to rewrite the doctrines of heaven and Hell.

Actually Mark, all the rest of the parables are set in realistic places, if not real places.

Also, which hell are you speaking of? Hades or Gehenna.  Hades is pictured in the parable.  Gehenna is not.  They are not the same.

And exactly what doctrines of heaven and hell you are referring to?  Maybe it is time to look at them.

Is the distance between heaven and hell just big enough to have conversation with Abraham?  Are the flames cool enough a drop of water satisfies?

The parable deals with Hades & Paradise, not heaven and hell.

There are serious theological problems with this story if it true.

Parables are realistic, not real.  Where does that leave us?

[MarkHooper]

And exactly what doctrines of heaven and hell you are referring to?  Maybe it is time to look at them.

Traditional view of Heaven and Hell speak of only 2 places of reality

Annihilation idea talks about 4 places of reality.

But I don't think Luke is attempting to speak on truths of our destiny but rather on the church verses the Jewish nation.

Matthew13:10 Then the disciples came to him and said, "Why do you speak to them in parables?

[John 1:1]

Thanks to the insight you guys have given me on this, I used to think of it as discussing charity and how being well off to care for those less fortunate or you will pay for it in the end.  Now, putting the rich man as being the Jews and "if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent" as being the risen Christ and discusses the Jews that didn't convert to Christianity here.  It can and should mean both though.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

And exactly what doctrines of heaven and hell you are referring to?  Maybe it is time to look at them.

Traditional view of Heaven and Hell speak of only 2 places of reality

Annihilation idea talks about 4 places of reality.

Annihilation or not (I'd say not), the Bible talks about 4 places. 

In order to make it otherwise, we have to make paradise=heaven, and sheol=gehenna.  Traditional?  Maybe.  Right?  Probably not.

[MarkHooper]

In order to make it otherwise, we have to make paradise=heaven, and sheol=gehenna.  Traditional?  Maybe.  Right?  Probably not.

If this true would it make the story of the Lazarus more complex? For instance how could the rich man be tormented if he is not in hell? This is what I mean by changing the teaching. What is this story about? When we get caught up on  minor details and try to explain what this means we ge the four places or two places all mixed up.

Jesus said he would be with the theif on the cross in paradise does that mean Jesus didn't go to heaven. Perhaps eschatology wise one could say heaven an hell have not been made yet. However this might help the story of Lazarus but it does change a lot of meaning since this story takes place before Christ death.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I choose door #3:  paradise is a place wihtin the heavens, and sheol might be too.

But you're right about this not being germaine to the parable's message.

[MarkHooper]

paradise is a place wihtin the heavens, and sheol might be too.

Interesting!

[John 1:1]

Going back to before Christs death, the traditional place where the Jews would reside at would be closer to the Catholic pergatory then.  This would be why they could still see each other.