Disconnected

[Meh]

First off, Hello everyone. I am here to try and get some advice on my relationship with my wife. We have been married for 12 years now and steadily we have grown further apart on the emotional level. As it stands we are able to converse about basic everyday things and about intimacy but everything else she has locked me out of.

Part of the problem is me, I admit that I do not call myself a Christian and I do not attend church. I do believe in God and Jesus and I do have faith, but I do not have an interest in churches. I understand that this can be a bit of a barrier in our relationship and do try to keep involved. The other part of the problem is the way that my wife lives her life and practices her faith.

I am not listened to because be views me as not "anointed in the word." She has habits such as taking on too many church related tasks, getting overloaded by them and doing nothing as a result or rushing through it at the last minute and snapping at everyone out of frustration. I am not allowed to talk about that with her because she will either become angry or pass it off.

Her main beliefs are centered around the Spiritual Freedom Church which is headed by Bob Larson. They involve the fact that every single thing about herself that she does not like is caused by a spirit/demon of (insert name) that is afflicting her and that she can be free of it by having it driven out. So for example she is angry then she is afflicted by the spirit of anger. If it is not a spirit that is affecting her then it is an "alter" or a fragmented personality that it created during an intense emotional event. As an example she had an alter of insecurity removed that was attributed to a teacher making fun of her school work.

Because all of her emotional problems, behavioral problems and personal problems are either spirits or alters in her belief, then she can only deal with them with a pastor. In other words I can not understand at all because I am not a believer of this church's teachings. I am not allowed into the emotions that my wife feels. Recently she attended a conference at the church in Scottsdale AZ because she needed ministry and counseling. She left for 4 days with little more than a voicemail during that time. She went with the wife of her pastor and a few other church friends. When she returned she would only tell me that she needs more counseling.

I am having a rough time with the fact that I am working in Iraq as a contractor while my wife is going through some sort of crisis and I am not allowed to be a part of what she is going through. For her there is no distinction between emotional and spiritual, there are only the spirits, alters and generational curses. She will not agree to having any sort of counseling with me to improve on communication unless it is with her pastor.

I do not think that I should worry about her having an affair, but I am beginning to wonder if her pastor understands the extent that she is taking things or if it is encouraged. This is looking more and more like a cult to me with the fact that while on the surface the healing and driving out of these spirits/demons is done through the power of God, the fact remains that only the trained pastors can perform this essential task and thus making her spiritual and emotional wellbeing dependant on them.

[Rainbows4me]

What do you believe about God and Jesus?

[Meh]

What do you believe about God and Jesus?

I believe that God is the creator of all things, that by his plan all things were created, both good and bad. Trials and influences in this world were put in place as a means to test our faith and strength. I do not have our enemy because our enemy does as intended. I believe that any influence in my life by spirit or by fleshly temptation is not there to make me choose against my will. Only I can decide to allow my will to be bowed.

I believe that Jesus came to the world to not only die for our sins but to teach us and to remind how to worship and praise God. That we would be closer to God through him and by his teaching be able to better ourselves and those around us. Above all else he taught us that God has such wonders for us if we but submit to the will of God. If we praise God and hold him in our hearts then no spirit could dwell in a place that his light fills.

Our lives are a constant stream of choices and actions, reactions and consequence. Reward and punishment twine hand in hand as we grow and learn and fail and succeed. We forgive and are forgiven but can only be truly forgiven for our sins if we also forgive ourselves and release guilt from our heart so that it does not tarnish our view of God. Through all of this as we make the right decisions as we resist the temptations of the world and as we honor God's word we grow closer to him. This is not about our deeds, about how many people we save or miracles we see or are a part of. We are all a part of a grand plan the scope of which our minds are unable to grasp while we live our lives on this world.

[Sherman Nobles]

Meh,

I'm sorry for the struggles that you and your wife are going through.  I pray that you will soon work through these issues.  I encourage you to go with your wife to counseling with her pastor.  It could be that she's taking things to an extreme, far beyond what is being taught in the church.  In Charismatic/Pentecostal type churches, some times people who are emotionally disturbed will look to blame everything on the devil and look for a quick-fix by casting out "spirits" when what they need to do is repent from bad attitudes and twisted ways of thinking.  On the other hand, some times it is demonic spirits that are negatively influencing people and they need deliverance; but many times it's not demonic but emotional/mental.  This is where discerning of spirits comes in.

On the practical side, take a couple of weeks, just you and her, and go on a cruise or vacation or something.  And take 15 minutes a day and pray together.  Let her pray as she will, and you be sure and pray too. 

Blessings,
Sherman

[Rainbows4me]

So have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?

It sounds like you have a good understanding...

As far as your wife.  Pray.  And ask God if you should go with her...or if there is a way you can connect with her.  Read some books on spiritual warfare...maybe even a Bob Larson book???
If she is involved in something wrong...then, maybe you, as the head/pastor over her--should be with her....to watch over her.  I had a son...and I watched over him...he didn't always like it...but I loved him enough to go with him to stupid things like Bruce Lee movies (no offense to any Bruce Lee fans out there...just not my thing) because I wanted to try and understand what he liked about it...AND I wanted to watch over him.  To see what he was putting in his soul....so I could pray and share what the Word says about it.

I have been to Bob Larson meetings.  I have cast demons out of people, and I have had them cast out of me--after I was saved...it really can be facinating to see--and experience...but here's my 2 cents about all that.
As far as deliverence goes...God does it.  It is all God.  When it is time for deliverence...it happens...easily, without much effort.  Get as close as you can to the LIGHT...and The Light overtakes the darkness...and Satan goes.  Submit yourself to God, resist the devil and the devil will flee...I know it is real...I have seen people changed in an instant.
When we have issues that plague us...we want it fixed fast.  And sometimes God does it that way...and other times He doesn't.  I think that is when we have to decide to trust Him with the battles...and learn to live a beautiful life anyway.  Trust Him to take care of it.   I have things I do...and I wish I could blame it on a demon...but, I really think, that even if it is a demon...then that demon won't come out...unless I REPENT for the wrong I am doing first!!!!...so blaming anyone...or anything is counter productive...does that make sense?

My prayer is that nothing will separate what God has put together.  I pray that you will have wisdom on how to lead/pastor/shepherd your lamb in a way that will draw you closer to each other.  I pray that you will go to a Bruce Lee movie...or something equally yucky to you...in order to show your wife you love her...and you care about what she is into.  That she matters...and you love her.   Right before Jesus went to the cross...he washed the disciples feet...like a servant...WOW--that is powerful!   Lord help him serve his wife...in a way that will speak love to her heart!

[Meh]

The fact that she does not have any distinction between her emotional state and her spiritual state makes discerning a legitimate emotional state and a spiritual state difficult. Because the only information I get from her reguarding her state of being dwells on getting spiritual counsel I do not believe that she is addressing anything other than her spiritual state.

I am not terribly comfortable with her pastor because I have not gotten any sort of feedback from him. I have contacted him with my conscerns and feelings but have not really gotten any response to them. I have made him aware that my wife looks to him for all matters, to the extent that she would not want to seek counseling with me from any other source. When I bring something up to a pastor and do not get any sort of feedback on how to resolve a problem, my comfort level with that pastor goes down.

My wife has stated that she will do what he wants, the possibility of having outside counsel is if he wants her to. In our marriage I am little more than her worldly manager it seems. And when the man that she will listen to does not really respond to me when I tell him of my conscerns it makes me frustrated. I have to ask him to ask my wife to have counseling with me to try and bridge the gap.

What is the point of our marriage if my only use is to bring home income, fix broken things and make babies? If she is sad, she goes to her pastor. If she is frustrated with being a single mother while I work in Iraq, she goes to her pastor. Her Bob Larson trained pastor can fix everything for her, but apparently not the isolation that I feel.

[Rainbows4me]

God can fix it!!!!
What do you think about going with her, or trying to learn more about it?
Could you do that...to try and reconnect with her?

[Meh]

At this point I am not comfortable with having a meeting with her pastor as I am not sure yet if he has our best interest at heart. Until I hear something from him that shows that he is interested in really helping bridge our gap I am leaning more towards the thought that he is more interested in keeping my wife dependant on his ministry and from sharing with me. Because she refuses any other counsel without his blessing, there is little option. This pastor holds my marriage in his hands, what will he do with it? My wife is so dependant on going to him and his team for everything, I don't think that she would even listen to God at this point.

[gracie]

gracious Meh, what a nightmare situation you are in! Difficult to  know what to do for the best - but somehow, you have to be able to get the other side of the wall that  is separating you from your wife. I have no  words of advice, but I will  ask the Lord to bring something else into view that will help her to pull back from the place she is now in and give you a chance. Going on holiday with her as Sherman suggests,  seeing new places and people,  having moments to share thoughts and prayers....

[janine]

It might help if you didn;t have half a freakin' world between the two of you, buddy.

How soon can you change that?

If you have any control over your location at all -- is it the money  that keeps you there?

I don't know you or your wife or her "pastor", of course, so who am I to say doodly?  But, here is my opinion:

Yes, it's a cult.

I don't care if they are Christians or not, when you spend all your "religious" time enslaved to a man and a ministry -- any man besides Jesus and any ministry besides His Great Commission -- then, yes, it's a cult.

Sing this to the beginning bars of the "William Tell Overture" -- you know, the "Lone Ranger" theme:
It's a cult, it's a cult, it's a cult-cult-cult!
It's a cult, it's a cult, it's a cult-cult-cult!
It's a cult, it's a cult, it's a cult-cult-cult!
It's a CU-U-U-U-U-LT!  It's a cult-cult-cult!

I don't care if they devalue you because you're not "Spirit Filled" or Spirit Led" or "Spirit Glued" or "Spirit" anything else -- In fact, from this one small angle, it doesn't even matter whether or not you're even saved/Christian.

The fact remains that you and your wife are supposed to be one flesh.  If that "pastor" does not communicate with you in such a way that he is supportive of you and your wife being the best partners you can be under God, then he is injuring your marriage.

And I agree, the first thing that pops into my head is not "Affair!"; but, see, there's a lot more4 kinds of "adultery", as far as I am concerned, than just the one straightforward obvious way where Pastor Bob takes Wifey off to a motel.  There's also an element of  hijacking of loyalties.  That's what he's done.

Not by himself!  It's your wife's fault too.

Was she like that when you married her?

You need to get home and straighten out your household.

[John 1:1]

I agree with Janine, too many signs of it being one. Demonic possession should be something you consider as a last conclusion, not the first and it's not common place at all.  As stated before, too many people want to pass blame onto an outside entity when the problem lies within the psycological and emotional state exclusively.

I pray God keeps you safe while you perform your work overseas, long distance marriages have a great deal of difficulty, and you don't have the support structure as they do in the military, so it's even harder on you due to it.  There is more to life then money, there is also more money that can be had without having to risk your life in a war zone as well if that's why you are there.

[janine]

You may be under contracts that it would be financially ruinous to break.  You are supposed to be a breadwinner for your household, I know this, and I did not mean in my post above to downplay that or to thumb my nose at you about it.

But, fella, if you want to make something useful and positive out of your marriage you need to be home.

You may not want to do anything draconian about the wife and her church choice -- I mean, if you get too stern and try to pull the "I-am-da-man" angle you will force her hand and force her to choose between you and Pastor Bob.

There may come a time for that but not before you try a more gentle approach.

You need to go to church functions with her.  If the door is open and her butt's on a pew yours needs to be parked right next to it.  If you enter into the church life as much as possible -- as much as they will let you, you infidel! --

You will perhaps gain a little bit more influence over her away from the pastor, and at least you will know all of the "public" information available in that group.  (Groups like that always have cliques and sub-groups and power-wells, all of which may affect your wife... those won't be easy to monitor but they are impossible to monitor if you're not "in church" with her and doubly impossible to keep track of from across the world.)

Your other course is to sit back, stay across the world as long as you like, and when you do come home maybe you will have a home to come to and maybe not.

How protected are your assets?  Has she got a power of attorney for while you're gone?  How do you know that "pastor" isn't working through your wife to massage your bank accounts with "snake oil"?

[Meh]

Saturdays are when their church meets. The pastor told me that he would "talk to her" during the weekend. For the fact that he knows how I feel on this and has not bothered to respond or followup beyond saying that he will talk to her. He is aware that I am at a point where I am contemplating ending our marriage and has shown no sign of real interest.

You are correct, for me to leave the contract now would incur a massive ammount of debt. I am scheduled to lake leave in a little less than two months. The only reason that would justify breaking my contract is if there is no recourse and it is to go home to end our marriage. I will not continue to sacrifice my freedom and safety in exchange for the future of my family if there is no future.

I am fully willing to admit my faults and how I contribute to the problems. I admit that I have not always been the best at this myself but I know that my mistakes are my own fault. I am not willing to believe that my actions were not my own or that I was controlled in any way. The agents of the enemy may be able to lie and tempt and torment but only I can make the choice. I do not believe that my actions allow a Jezebel Spirit http://www.albatrus.org/english/church-order/women-matters/jezebel_in_our_society.htm to controll me through my past actions or that it was inherited through the actions of my ancestors. No matter what influence there may be in my life, my actions and my emotions are by my choice.

I have been thinking and praying about this situation very hard and trying my best to define the problems and possible solutions. I am going to paste the last email that I sent to her pastor which included a request for feedback. I have not received a response in any form.

"I have been giving alot of thought to this matter and want to run a few observations by you. One of the base things that I have been thinking about is what effect I have on the situation and how the cycle has been perpetuated. Though I see the cycle and see the roots of it, I am also at a loss on how to bring a unilateral change to it.

On my end, the very fact that I am trying to depend on her for emotional support with the difficulty of being separated is making her feel pressured. The fact that my feelings become hurt due to her placing other things before me when she made promises to make time for me. The perpetuation of the cycle of hurt from this leads to her trying harder to avoid making time for me and for me to be unable to let it go because there has been no closure. I hurt more because she makes ways to avoid me and she avoids me so that she does not get hurt.

The fact that I have not been the ideal Christian to her bring us both hurt because this brings a lack of understanding to both of us. Because I am still comming to terms with my beliefs and with how I view Christianity, I feel pressured to become a part of something that I am not at terms with. She is looking for a husband who is a Christian that has more knowledge and wisdom than herself that can bring her guidance. Because she feels that I am not what she feels she needs, she is searching out what she thinks she does need.

She is looking for help, she is aware that there is a problem. At the same time though, I do not think that she is truely aware that she is also avoiding the problem. The more that I review our conversations, the more I see the patterns of deflection. I am becoming more aware of the fact that I have fallen for deflective behavior. Rather than admit fault or even consider the possibility I would point out what the other person has done.

I see the same patterns in her and know that it is a taught behavior. Her parents were the main contributing factor in learning deflection. I was also a contributing factor. Now that I have become aware of my own deflective behavior I will make a greater effort in looking at my actions when they are put into question.

She is going to keep running in the same loop until she is able to see the fact that she is avoiding her problems. When confronted with her spending habits, she becomes agitated then she focuses on the rent for our house. While it would save us money to pay less for our house and the purpose of my being in Iraq is to save money, it is also not going to be the end all solution. It is not going the address or change her spending habits, but it does give her something to deflect the problem onto rather than face her habits and change them.

Part of the problem with the deflection is that she is desperate for approval and afraid of failure. Her parents did not give her the approval that she needed as she developed. The fact that she always felt like she was losing a compeition with her sister forced this deep into her. She wants to be recodnised and praised. She wants for me to approve of her development as a Christian and at the same time feels that I would never get it. I am not without blame in this. My driving desire to make sense out of belief and faith makes me inflexible to beliefs that do not make sense. As she developed as a Christian she went through alot of changes and beliefs, some not for the better. And as she would pick up a belief that made no sense and I would not agree, it became an issue of my not understanding her and her not understanding me.

This leads into anger and resentment. The time when she began believing in the pre-adamites is an early example of our religious conflict. She, one day, began to believe an evangelist whom she listened to on the radio. He taught about the pre-adamites who were a race of men that existed before Adam and who fell from God's grace and became the demons that plague us today. This clearly is a false belief, but at the time shebecame angry at me for refuting that teaching. Some time later she was taught otherwise and let that belief go. This contributed to my resentment of the church and of her. That with something as clear cut wrong as that and I was still not viewed and able to decide that it was false, but that it took a church and a pastor to tell her the same thing and get an instant result.

I am making a strong effort in finding my own culpability and what I contribute the our problems. I am not sure how to broach the subject of deflection and not facing the root of problems with her in a way that will be constructive. As long as she is focusing on easy ways to fix problems with out having to face her own part in them, I am not sure how we can meet in the middle. I do not refute anything about the methods of Bob Larson and your church. I am worried that she is using the belief in alters as a means of deflecting her problems into a medium that shifts blame from herself or to avoid facing any emotions rooted in the present that are then shifted onto an alter that she does not have to feel responsible for. Being angry at herself for not staying focused on a project and being worried that the person who gets the result of her project will disaprove is a different matter than deciding that it must be some hidden alter that she has no knowledge or memory of.

So for my part I will be making an effort at finding boundaries as to how far to push subjects and at admiting fault of my own. I will also need to work on voicing the hurt that I feel in a more constructive way and try to do it a way that will not be viewed as open criticism and hostility to her. Otherwise I end up hitting the defend switch on her and begining the cycle anew. At the same time, I will need to work on making my epectations on her lower so that she does not feel pressured to perform.

What is your opinion of this so far?

[Petals]

Meh,  I am so sorry for the situation that you are in right now.  It has to be frustrating when a pastor, who is supposed to be a "man of God," won't respond to you or do everything in his power to help keep your marriage intact.   If he is sincerely desirous of helping you and your wife get back on track, he would be involving you both in discussions.  He would also be considerate enough to reply to your e-mails and remain neutral while listening to both sides.

I've ceased offering advice on the forums for the most part, because I'm usually speaking from experience, not necessarily what is right in a particular situation.  It's hard to give advice, also, when all aspects of a situation are not known.   I will pray, however, that God intervenes in your marriage and opens your wife's eyes to what her role should be as a godly wife and mother.   

[gracie]

trueblue - amen to that.

[John 1:1]

Meh,

Keeping in the context, she's part of a cult, members are encouraged to isolate themselves from outsiders, this is a big part of the reason she and bob are avoiding including you.  Your rational perspective is what she needs most and I feel compliments the marriage.  If you take this up with a church, do NOT go to bob's church, obviously he knows he can't suck you into his, find one that's mainstream and conservative for both of you to discuss this with.  The nuetral ground is also going to be helpful since there will be no background or past that will interfere with the real issues.  Also, I want to applaud your maturity on taking responsiblity for your actions and not trying to pawn them off on the devil or demonic forces, this is something I see too many people stumble with and what happens when they don't take a hard look at themselves, they tend to fall right back into the same problems they had before because they never changed their behavior and thinking. 

Along her spending habits, here is something that's wise to adopt, it's not how much you make, it's what you do with what you make that matters.  It's also about the fact, no amount of spending, or having is going to make you happy.  In today's society, people think they must have the newest, or best, or they are less then their neighbor, that thinking is all rubbish.  Sure, you may be happy for a short while with that new flat screen tv or the latest vehicle on the lot, but it never lasts and it's really not any deep form of satisfaction.  If she want's approval, see if she can take that to heart and show just how much she can do and save at the same time, that would be impressive in anybodies eyes, you guys can even take it some steps forward and start your own business on the side.  It will also give her something to keep her occupied during your stay off shore and it will give her a sense of accompolishment at the same time.  For now,  you really gotta get in complete control over the finances until she learns how to spend more wisely, this is the very reason you are stuck overseas, and when everything is said and done, you are there for the soul purpose of paying for material goods, it's literally the accumulation of things that  you are risking your life over when it's all broken down.

Emotional support, you have to be the strong one here, she has to rely upon you, just as you have to rely upon Christ, it doesn't sound like she's capable, or strong enough emotionally to be relied upon right now, so unfortunately you will need to draw upon your own inner strength and find the faith to trust God will work on your behalf, how ever you want to word it, it's about having faith in him in the here and now above all else.  Bottom line, God is awsome for support, you just have to let him help, he's ready willing and able for both of you.

With your faith and her's, it sounds to me like she has one ideal, you have another, her's is based upon how often she goes to church, not about works nor following the word, look at the strain she's putting on the marriage, that's not a very Godly or "Christian" way of living at all, and again, it comes down to that cult she's being deceived with.  The moment you two were married, you have formed a new bond, a new family and a new generation, her past issues with her syblings, parents, etc. wanting approval from them especially should remain a second priority, her obligation to you and your partnership should always be first, this is not to say, God being the ultimate first priority, but I think you know what I'm saying here.  When you to are functioning as one, then you see the marriage for what it is, and if you recall your vows, "what God has joined, let no man seperate" or how ever it was worded in your case, this is literally what's happening, some man is trying to take apart what God has joined and it's up to you to make a stand and assert yourself, to reunify your marriage and use everything you have at your disposal to do so.

I hope this helps.

[Meh]

For now I will just have to wait and see how this develops.

[Meh]

John 1:1, one major hurdle I have at the moment is that as long as she decides who is godly enough to listen to, it will always overshadow any message given to her. Finding neutral ground is only as good as she allows it to be. A belief system that plays on the fact the there is false word under every rock breed fear of learning or listening to anything new or different. Being told that a spirit can control your actions leads to fear that anyone who does not agree with you can be harboring a spirit bent on leading you from god. The descriptions of the spirits in the belief system are drawn out in such a way that any sort of behavior can be seen as a sign of habitation as evident by the description of the Jezebel Spirit. I do not know of how to break these beliefs down to her in a way that she can recodnise.

[John 1:1]

Meh,
That's very typical of a perspective and conclusion when trying to get a loved one away from a cult.  No amount of reason or logic will suffice as long as the member is under the leaders influence.  I'm going to ask a friend of mine here to chime into this thread, he has extensive experience when it comes to facing these entities and might give you more tactics upon how to go about it most effectively.

Along the nuetral party, would a Catholic priest be considered "holy" enough for her?  There has to be a minister, pastor, etc. in an outside church she has some respect for their discernment.  You aren't there to sign on to some other denomination, "it would be nice if you two did though", the outside nuetral party may even find a way of getting her to see the light on what bob is doing as well.

The bottom line here, the longer you wait, the harder it will be to get her away from the cult, she's being brainwashed and isn't acting on her own accord, she's following bob, not God, and the sooner you can step in, the better.

[Charles Sloan]

Meh,

I thought since this topic was brought to my attention, I would resurrect an old post of mine since it seems applicable to your situation. This list is not exhaustive, not conclusive, but it is to be considered a guide for examination. If your wife is open to such resources you should show her this list or something similar.

I would also recommend the video: The Marks of a Cult: A Biblical Analysis

The Marks of a Cult

1. Extrabiblical Authority: All cults deny what God says in His Word as true. Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God's full and final written Word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible; they generally will use parts of the Bible but will have their own unique scripture which is considered to be superior to the Bible. While some cult groups give token respect for the Bible and go through the motions of accepting the authority of Scripture, in reality, they honor the group's or leader's novel interpretation of Scripture as normative.

2. Works Salvation/Legalism: Cults teach that eternal life depends upon something other than the Atonement; i.e., faith in the atoning, finished work of Christ on the cross is deemed not to be sufficient (usually replaced with human works and human responsibility). Rather than relying on the grace of God alone for salvation, the salvation message of the cults always boils down to required obedience to, or abstention from, certain obligations and practices (some even including obedience to the Old Testament law).

3. No Assurance of Salvation: The issue of a cult member's salvation is never settled, but is constantly affected by the changing circumstances of life; in this way, cult leaders are able to produce continued obligation and spiritual bondage, rather than spiritual freedom.

4. Guru-Type Leader/Modern Prophet: The cult leader is looked to as the infallible interpreter of Scripture, specially appointed by God to be a special saint, guru, or contemporary messiah, and thereby, has divine authority that must not be violated. Cultists almost always quote their leader rather than the Bible. The cult's adherents often expound the virtues of the founders and seek to cover the founder's sins and wickedness.

5. Vacillating, Ambiguous Doctrines/Spiritual Deception: In order to gain favor with the public, and thereby aid in the recruitment of new members, cult "doctrine" tends to be characterized by many false or deceptive claims concerning the cult's true spiritual beliefs (e.g., Mormons are not quick to reveal their belief that God was a man, who has now become the God of planet Earth).

6. Exclusivity from/Denunciation of Other Groups: Each cult group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea -- "The Only True Church Syndrome." The members of each specific organization have been taught that their church, organization, or community, is the only true group and that all other groups are false. The group's leaders will explain that it is impossible to serve God without being a member of the specific group. Moreover, when the cult leader announces himself as the true "Messiah," all others are declared to be dishonest, deceitful, and deluded, and must be put down; alternative views are denounced as being satanic and corrupt. Persecution is welcomed, and even glorified in, as "evidence" that they are being persecuted for righteousness sake. Thus, if a member decides to leave the group, they have been told that they are not simply leaving an organization, but rather they are leaving God and His only true organization. Hence, for a member of a cult who has been in a group for any length of time, the action of leaving the group is much more difficult than what most Christians understand. To leave the group is, in the minds of the cult member, tantamount to leaving God.

7. Claims of Special Discoveries/Additional Revelation: Acceptance of new, contemporary, continual revelations that either deny the Bible or are allowed to explain it. The fundamental characteristic of Christianity is that it is historical, not dependent upon private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships, while the almost universal basis of cult religion is the claimed exclusive revelation that one person has supposedly received. Rather than conforming to Biblical rules of evidence (2 Cor. 13:1), cult leader revelations almost always emanate from hallucinations, visions, dreams, private discoveries, etc. These new revelations often become codified as official written "scripture" of the cults (e.g., The Book of Mormon), and are considered as valid as that of the apostles (and even more relevant because they are given in these end times).

8. Defective Christology: Cults always have a false view of the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ; a cult will usually deny the true deity of Christ, His true humanity, His true origin, or the true union of the two natures in one Person.

9. Defective "Nature of Man": Most cults do not see man as an immortal being; instead they see him either as an animal without a soul or as a being which is being perfected to the point of becoming a god. They usually do not see man as a spirit clothed in a body of flesh awaiting the redemption of body and soul.

10. Out-Of-Context Scripture Use as Proof-Texts/Segmented Biblical Attention: Cults tend to focus on one verse or passage of the Bible to the exclusion of others, and without regard for the context in which Scripture is given (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:29 used by Mormons to justify baptism for the dead). In addition, cults have made an art form out of using Christian terminology, all the while pouring out their own meanings into the words.

11. Erroneous Doctrines Concerning Life After Death and Retribution: Covering the gamut from soul sleep to annihilationism to purgatory to universalism to the progression to godhood, cults invariably deny the existence of a final judgment of, and a final "resting" place for, the unrighteous.

12. Entangling Organization Structure: The less truth a movement represents, the more highly it seems to have to organize itself; the absence of truth seems to make necessary the application of the bonds of fear. Cults often demand total commitment by their converts to an organizational involvement that entangles them in a complicated set of human restrictions, giving the impression of passionate and often irrational devotion to a cause. 

13. Financial Exploitation: The cultic practitioner strongly implies that money contributed to the cause will earn the contributor numerous gifts, powers, and abilities, and in many cases, outright salvation.

14. Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence: Occult influence is many times found in either the origin of the group and/or in its current practices.

[janine]

Meh, new people don't get to post links, according to Da Rulz, until they have a few more posts under their belts...

But, that link you posted on the previous page re: the "Jezebel Spirit" silliness is useful for folks who're not familiar with the kind of religious groups who focus on demons etc. -- So I left it in.

Keep hold of God's hand.

[Meh]

Meh, new people don't get to post links, according to Da Rulz, until they have a few more posts under their belts...

But, that link you posted on the previous page re: the "Jezebel Spirit" silliness is useful for folks who're not familiar with the kind of religious groups who focus on demons etc. -- So I left it in.

Keep hold of God's hand.

Sorry, I just had no way of properly describing the belief tied to that spirit/demon.

[zoonance]

not that this would explain a thing, but is this a seventh day adventist congregation?

[John 1:1]

I'm glad you brought that link up again Meh, I dealt with that demon, or one like it in the past, what's said about it is dead on, it has zero application towards someone that's avidly into the word so is taken completely out of context and is being used as a way of controlling her.

We can put this one right back in pastor bob's face though and make it work against him and we should rely upon the bright people here for biblical references.

We need quotes for anything and all things related to marriage and how a wife is supposed to behave towards her husband.  All of it, and when you have the list, take it to her, then ask if she's in compliance or rebellion of it.  If you want to take it a couple step's fruther, do some history research to women's roll about the household, how things really were, where they were  in charge of the family business, where they were the ones that owned the land, typically donated as part of the dourwy "sorry bad spelling" and what their real roll was back then.  You can then if it's necessary to add on, discuss how she's being more like Jezebelle for not being compliant to her roll in the marriage then she is following mr bob on his whole game.

If you get through to her, find a church, a mainstream one fast and both of you put it all on the table, she's going to need some protection from bob during this transition, if the church is effective enough, ie. helping her through her problems, even if it means they point her to a good therapists, so be it, this chapter is over and you can move forward with your marriage as it was intended to be in the first place.  Just remain steadfast with your faith, she's going to rely upon you heavily to reinforce her in this area, especially at first.

[janine]

The aspect of using her own rules -- Pastor Bob's own game -- against her is a lovely logical satisfying idea.  It will only work, however, if she is sane and logical within herself.

Yes, I know, those of us who hold no truck with eeeee-ville spirits and do not traffic with demons will often consider those who are over-focused on those things to be illogical and probably mentally unbalanced, already, anyway.  But hear me out on this --

If she is able to follow a set of rules, which is what Scripture has turned into for her (as interpreted through Pastor Bob and his kind) --

These people who constantly play with spirits and demons and stuff, oh my! -- these people are every bit as obsessed and anal-retentive about what they perceive as their own lists of rules and checklists of righteousness as, say, a "Church-o-Christ" legalist --

Anyway -- If she is still sane, and has only fallen into this group and their ways because she finds comfort in the system of it -- and if she really does put faith in the Word and in Scripture --

Then it is kind of a poetic thing, pointing out all the Scripture she is violating by having a higher loyalty to that Bob dude than to her own man.  A lovely thing.

IF she is sane.

If she is brainwashed and caught up in it, cult-member-style; or, if she has some mental and emotional problems that are in full swing and uncontrolled (which makes her an easy mark for ol' Bob), then she will not care -- she will not be able to care -- what the Lord has to say in the Word about how she ought to be living out her spiritual life.

Think also about this:

That effort will backfire unless Meh also finds the corresponding and complimentary Scriptures about how he as a husband and a Christian is supposed to be acting.  In other words, if he waves all her failures before her face, he'd better also have a list of his own possible areas of failure, and he'd better have already started praying and repenting about them.

And as part of the package of showing her all the ways she is messing up, he can confess his own shortcomings and promise to work on them with God's help, before he ever demands that the wife deal with her mess.

[John 1:1]

Janine, Amen !!!

[Meh]

I'm glad you brought that link up again Meh, I dealt with that demon, or one like it in the past, what's said about it is dead on, it has zero application towards someone that's avidly into the word so is taken completely out of context and is being used as a way of controlling her.

We can put this one right back in pastor bob's face though and make it work against him and we should rely upon the bright people here for biblical references.

We need quotes for anything and all things related to marriage and how a wife is supposed to behave towards her husband.  All of it, and when you have the list, take it to her, then ask if she's in compliance or rebellion of it.  If you want to take it a couple step's fruther, do some history research to women's roll about the household, how things really were, where they were  in charge of the family business, where they were the ones that owned the land, typically donated as part of the dourwy "sorry bad spelling" and what their real roll was back then.  You can then if it's necessary to add on, discuss how she's being more like Jezebelle for not being compliant to her roll in the marriage then she is following mr bob on his whole game.

If you get through to her, find a church, a mainstream one fast and both of you put it all on the table, she's going to need some protection from bob during this transition, if the church is effective enough, ie. helping her through her problems, even if it means they point her to a good therapists, so be it, this chapter is over and you can move forward with your marriage as it was intended to be in the first place.  Just remain steadfast with your faith, she's going to rely upon you heavily to reinforce her in this area, especially at first.

I did a informational foray into gaining a greater look into where her dependance lies. I did a short question session asking her why her emotions and "spiritual freedom"  are dependant on her church and pastor. She said that she could get it from anyone with the proper training and that there are 2 other churches with compatable training, but failed to explain why she is dependant on this one church.

I will send a PM to Janine to get permission to link to the website of her church. It has videos of their meetings. I have not watched all of them but the one on the jezebel spirit is quite confusing as the speaker blurs the line back and forth between the biblical jezebel and the spirit that they label as jezebel. He describes the spirit as being a male spirit while going on to describe the actions of the female biblical jezebel. The biblical jezebel has little to do with this spirit other than providing a basis for the description as to why that name is used. He talks about how they deal with it, and their way of doing so sounds more like a ritual than anything else. There should be no symbolic severing of this or that body part on the spirit to restrict it's power, the authority given to us by the blood of jesus means that we can command thier bonds broken and cast them out. It is not a fight, it is quite one sided. The fight is recodnizing the influence that they use on people.

The other video I watched was on anger. The pastor began to read almost every scripture on anger and how it is bad and a door to the enemy. He warns the group that his message will stir them up, stir up things in their life. But if they need further counseling they can see the pastors on X days of the week to get further counseling. Which is for a fee of course as this counseling is how they pay their bills. I saw nothing in that message about the fact that anger is a natural human emotion and something that we can control not just this awful avenue for the enemy to exploit and plant a spirit of anger who then opens the door to his friends.

[Meh]

I know that I need help with myself. One thing above others that I need to do is seek spiritual growth for myself regardless of what my wife feels. I know that this is at the surface a shallow sounding excuse,  that my fear of seeking out what I believe should not depend on whether my wife accepts my beliefs or not. I need to let go of my own need of acceptance from her and do what is right. If she will not accept me for what I believe I need to continue regardless. For too long I have been unable to act on my own because I worried that she would not accept my beliefs and I stagnated under the weight of her expectations of me to conform to her beliefs.

But this is not the only reason for my avoidance of religion. For a very long time I held anger towards men and God for the pain and grief that has been wrought on the world in the name of God. That men could be allowed to destroy countless lives in his name and nothing was done to stop it. My frustration at the rampant hypocrisy of churches that breeds intolerance and draws lines. People who learn to pity those that do not follow that they follow because their way is the right way. Everywhere there are these lines these divisions of I am right and you are not. Hundreds of sects of Christianity that have their own belief that is THE right way. Catholics, Jew, Muslims, Lutherans, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, the list grows on who is right about God. Millions of people looking across their lines of battle over who is right, over who has the right to salvation.

Christians who exalt Jesus over God, people who see no difference between the Father and the Son. Jesus came and he taught with both words and actions. His teachings and sacrifice brought us closer to God than was possible before. At every step he was an example to how great men could be if only they follow his example. He taught us how to pray to God to glorify him in every action that we take. He removed the barriers between us and God. His sacrifice tore the veil of sin asunder that allowed us to remove that stain and be fit to be in the presence of God and thus closer. Jesus never once asked to be worshiped or even thanked. He never asked to be glorified for every good thing that happens in a person's life. He wanted to bring us closer to God. He was God's incarnation in the flesh of this world to show us how it can be done, how his children could come to God. How to resist the temptations of the flesh and the world around us. And how to free ourselves of the things in our lives that bind us down and stop us from growing in wisdom and maturing in his word. How our angers and our jealousy blind us to love. How our fear to stand up for values that foster moral men  and women so that the best on man can shine forth. But forget not that God is the greatest of all.

I see false faith abound in every church that I have been inside of. Men and Women who think that if they pray about something enough times it will happen. Do they think that God did not hear them the first time? Do they think maybe God forgot and hope to remind him? God has already told us that if we but ask he will grant what we need. Faith is trust. Can they trust God to know what they need, can they trust God enough to let his will be done? Like children they seek to get what they want and become disenchanted when things don't happen the way that they want. Have faith and trust that God has his plan laid out for you. We can't fathom the mind and plans of God, but we can trust in God. Every action in our lives and even every death and sickness that affect us is not a mistake. For every wrong thing in the world there is an example of the right thing. Every temptation can build our strength or erode our spirit.

Fear runs rampant. Christians fear the world and seek to cut themselves off from it. You are not separate from the world, it is still there around you whether you like it or not. Immorality is still there, greedy companies are still there, drugs are still there, you can not turn away from it. What truly separates you from the world is God. You are also an example to the world, it is your life and how you live it that separates you from all of what you fear in the world. Every temptation that you resist is what sets you apart. Every positive change that you make to the world sets you apart. Each time you let go of anger rather than continue it raises you above the world. You are going fail from time to time. We are flawed. But it is whether it makes us afraid of trying again that sets us apart. Being Christian, being a follower and worshiper of God does not make us different. We do not become something else suddenly, a different person. We are not suddenly separate from same things of the world that were there before we chose to follow God, the world is still there. But rather than change we improve, what we were, what we are, become better. You are not a different person than you were, you are a better person and the difference is in the choices that you make. A Rose Bud is still a rose, but it takes nurturing and time for it to open up into a beautiful rose.

Too many miss out on things that can enrich their lives because they fear the world around them. People stagnate because their world revolves around a building, because they think a church is the only safe place to be, that no bad things can be there.  Faith stagnates because people are trying so hard to run from their flawed nature that they try to conform to an ideal, an image that they want to emulate by trying to be like another person as though they can put that person's clothes on and suddenly they no loner need to grow because they fit the mold.  Ministries stall out in mid stride when they focus on miracles as though miracles are the only way to draw people closer to God. It is not how people view you or the works that you do that make you grow. People fear to come as they are and it is not just their problem. Too many churches focus on image and not on the people in them. Is it necessary to have an application? Does a person need to be accepted by the pastor before they can be allowed into a congregation? How does it glorify God to turn a man away who seeks redemption? A person does not need to seek forgiveness from a church or justify their lives to a man. Only God holds this right. And no man with a desire to become better should fear to come before God.

People fear the works of the enemy so much and fail to see that there is no reason to fear. Fear is a shackle that turns their heads from everything good in their lives. If they have been saved by the blood of Jesus and if God resides in their heart they have no cause to fear the enemy. This does not mean that you should ignore the enemy, but it does mean that you should not be afraid. To always worry that the enemy is going to destroy your life is telling God that you do not trust him to safeguard you. If you can not trust God then you will not know peace, you will not know joy and you will always be running.

I have been silent too long. I will not fear speaking what is in my heart anymore. I know that I can't change the world. But I challenge people to challenge themselves to grow beyond the mold. I can talk about truly having faith in God. I can do this and no longer worry if I will be accepted by my wife or by churches.

[John 1:1]

If you read more into these forums, you'll see some of your points are not only accepted, they are embraced.  There is alot of discussion which revolves ultimately around what happened to the modern church, and what you are describing is what I call "benchwarmers" and I too face the same on my end with it.

A little background here might help, I grew up Catholic in the traditional sense, I accept it as one of my denominations, I also fully support non Catholic denominations as long as they are mainstream, this excluses mormons, JW's, and the myriad of religions that are not based upon the standard accepted doctrins.  It's the bible, the word, what is written unmolested and uninterpretated that is my bottom line, everything else is man made and I take with a grain of salt.  This doesn't make my view popular with mainstream religions, but not alot of people can keep one foot firmly grounded in reality with the other firmly planted with the word.  This gives me a conservative approach towards it all, yet I'm not limited to remaining blinded in the face of my advesary, of which, very much exists, especially in today's world and there is alot of talk with people blaming the devil, or some other entity when they should be putting the blame squarly on their own shoulders, I think it's a cop out to not accept ones own responsability.  In this, I believe we have something in common and I think that you think, what you have been exposed to in the past is all there is, that the benchwarmers are the elite and epitome of what this is all about, which you are mistaken, they just make up the bulk of who attends service, bulk, as in not all.

You are in a good position to observe the locals risking their lives for their faith being Christians, there is a reason they stay steadfast with their faith, it would be much easier on them if they were to become muslems, yet they refuse, why is that?  It's because they have genuine faith, they aren't benchwarmers, and I commend anybody in the middle east that keeps it in tact in spite of opposition over there to the highest degree.  What I'd do is observe their actions, and take note of their courage.  I'd also simply get into the word itself, read it cover to cover, you will find all of the answers you seek within there.  The problem here is that you aren't able to recall what's being taught so you are interjecting teachings of man into it, when you read the word itself, it will clarify all of it and point you the right direction, this is why I am not going to point out elements that need to be corrected, I'll let you learn those on your own through it because it appears that's going to be the only way you want to learn.  You will find in the end that it doesn't yolk you down, it liberates you, and there are things you mention that cannot be effectively explained if you have not read and understood what is originally written down, it jumps too far ahead of the game, for now, learn to crawl, then to walk, then to run, when you are sprinting, much of what you hear starts to make alot more sense.

The reality of it all though, you don't have the luxury to wrestle with accepting the word of God in it's entirety, so I'd say for your immediate purposes and focus, it should be strictly within the NT, and keeping in the context, your marriage is at stake here so you have to get it really quickly to make it effective and to become the strong spiritual person your wife needs right now.  I've given you some gorrilla tactics to use in helping the situation as well as some conservative ones myself, the others have also given you some great advice, it's up to you to decide if your current way of doing and thinking is adequet, of which it's clear, it's not, or if there is some insight shared here that's going to help mend the situation.  Keeping in the context, that cult your wife belongs to is not a real church, not in the least, the sooner you can get through to her to pull her away from bobs influence the better.  Once you do that, the rest will be much easier to deal with since she'll be more rational with her thoughts and actions.  Getting a mainstream counselor also might be your best option, well, it sounds like that's going to be the best for you in at least accepting what they have to say, the reason I mentioned going to another church is because she's conditioned to only discuss things with others that follow the regime and have some status within it.  I know, it's a veneer to you, but it's not to her.

[Meh]

You are right John, I do need to learn and grow more. I do have alot of worldly views that need to be polished out. Now that I have thought enough on the situaton with my wife I can see that trying to meet her expectations all these years has held me back. I am not saying that it means I need to remove her from my life or anything, just that should free myself of her expectations and seek to become a better christian if she approves of my progress or not.

Helping her overcome dependance on this church of hers is going to take effort and determination. I know that I can not do it alone. I will need God's help and the help of a strong pastor and congregation. She may disregard what I have to say on christian matters, but she can not disregard a collective effort.

She has ties with an Assembly of God church in town. She attends it on Sundays only because the church that she would prefer does not have a building of their own and operates out of another church on saturday nights. She said that her church will be getting their own building soon and that she will be attending that church full time. I think that I should bring these issues up with the pastor of the AG church so that we can schedule a meet with my wife to talk about her current church. She feels very strongly about only sharing her personal beliefs with people that she knows and feels comfortable with. She knows this pastor and I think that he will be a great help in setting up an atmosphere that will bring facts onto the table.

[Brian Millar]

Very good buddy, you are right on, it should be done for yourself and that alone.  You already are showing inner strength, run with it, she'll see that you are picking up the cross here and cannot say anything negative for doing so.

Now that I found out he doesn't even have a building, might as well let you in on something that's been disturbing in general.  There are what is called "plants" these are pastors that form new churches for the purpose of revenue, they will normally snag people from other churches, saying they are forming a new one.  They always start out on a shoestring, in this case, it's quite clear with the lack of facilities.  Much of the time, they don't even rent from a church building, they rent any place they can find to save money.  I had the experience with one in the business world which gives me the inside scoop on it.  After they establish their group, they take their donations and in the case of the one I knew, he started a coffee shop with the money.  The contributors never received any compensation for that lucrative venture.  After the group is established, they'll set up someone else to follow up on it's leadership and the pastor is off to plant at a new location, all the while, receiving a decent salery from every group they establish.  In this case, he was complaining that the $1500.00 a month for doing basically nothing wasn't enough and needless to say, he was NOT getting by with a meager living.  It very much sounds like bob is another one of those plants.

Best wishes to you, and any time you need an ear, by all means, look us up, you know you always can count on us.

[Meh]

I hadn't noticed before, but when I did a google search for Bob Larson, I see an ad on the right bar where ads go that asks "Do you need an exorcism?."

[janine]

(The ads on this website help to pay for the expenses of the website.  They appear by some process I don't really understand (I am so-o-o-o computer-ignorant), but it seems to key off of what we are discussing.

You can imagine the ads that come up if we discuss touchy subjects, sexual problems etc.!  Lee Wilson, the Admin, has the ability to block any ads that are objectionable, so PM him about any that you think do not belong here.)

I am thinking I will go ahead and post the link you sent re: the wife's church; my only problem with this is the possibility of her privacy being violated.  We do not know you or her, it's not that we would find out who she is -- but if any of her churchmates are prowling the web for mentions of their church, they may come up with the reference here and THEY will know all her business.

They may also start praying to bind up the horrible evil spirits they will assume are possessing and oppressing us -- we must be under the Devil's control to think that church is unbalanced, right? 

Anyway -- here is part of my reaction to Meh:

...
God is a consuming, purifying fire.  We would do well to be more thoroughly devoted to him at all times.  This might mess up a lot of marriages, and disrupt a lot of churches.  It's not at all comfortable to be around somebody "on fire" for God, when one has become lukewarm.  Not that I am saying YOU are lukewarm, I'm speaking generally.

But -- but -- but -- If the following after all this exciting "warfare" garbage is the wife's whole focus, and if the church and the pastor do not actively seek to support and nurture your marriage and support you and your wife as partners under God -- then that church is, at best, a hindrance to your marriage, maybe to your souls, and at worst, that church is of the Devil.

Hold up Jesus.  Keep in your mind and heart His place as All Human and simultaneously All Divine.  Jesus took a humble position, walking this Earth as one of us for 30+ years -- sort of like the son of the head of a big corporation taking a job in the basement as a custodian.  But never let that make you forget that He claimed that spot, "Son of God" -- He fearlessly claimed deity -- and He never turned aside worship the way we see angels doing in Scripture.  He spent His time here obeying and pointing the way back to God -- but that doesn't make Him not God.

In your effort to avoid over-emphasis on one small part of being a Christian, don't drop off things about God that are true and important -- just because some folks dwell on those parts over other parts.

[John 1:1]

You are right John, I do need to learn and grow more. I do have alot of worldly views that need to be polished out. Now that I have thought enough on the situaton with my wife I can see that trying to meet her expectations all these years has held me back. I am not saying that it means I need to remove her from my life or anything, just that should free myself of her expectations and seek to become a better christian if she approves of my progress or not.

Helping her overcome dependance on this church of hers is going to take effort and determination. I know that I can not do it alone. I will need God's help and the help of a strong pastor and congregation. She may disregard what I have to say on christian matters, but she can not disregard a collective effort.

She has ties with an Assembly of God church in town. She attends it on Sundays only because the church that she would prefer does not have a building of their own and operates out of another church on saturday nights. She said that her church will be getting their own building soon and that she will be attending that church full time. I think that I should bring these issues up with the pastor of the AG church so that we can schedule a meet with my wife to talk about her current church. She feels very strongly about only sharing her personal beliefs with people that she knows and feels comfortable with. She knows this pastor and I think that he will be a great help in setting up an atmosphere that will bring facts onto the table.

Bravo, we are all rooting for you!!!

[Meh]

I was looking into the subject of authority and how authority applies to spirits to find a counterpoint to the way that church conducts exorcisms.

The examples of Jesus casting out spirits do not seem to place a great emphasis on a grand struggle. In Luke 8, What I read is that no man or chain could bind the afflicted, possibly chain as also meaning work of man. Jesus commanded the spirits to name themselves and gave them permission to go. I view this as a demonstration of the authority that Jesus has over spirits. In Matthew 8:28-34, again no man was able to do anything about the afflicted  men because they were so violent and again Jesus gave them permission to leave. In Mark 5:1-20, Jesus was stern and commanded the spirit to be silent and to go and the people who witnessed recognised the authority of Jesus.

In Luke 10:17-20,  I read that Jesus gave the men authority over spirits, among other things, but not to rejoice in the fact that the spirits submit to them. I think key to this is that they were given authority to command spirits but not to glorify in it. Part of what I need clarification on is if we also have that authority in his name.

In Mark 6:7, I read that Jesus called the 12 to him and sent them out with authority over evil spirits.

I want to have a clarified belief that the casting out of spirits is about having authority over them through Jesus. That the spirits should have cause to fear a man/woman that has Jesus in their heart and that should a Christian be faced with casting out a spirit, it can be done with authority and that the spirit has no ground on which to fight against that authority. This in opposition to the belief that certain conditions have to be met or that it has to be weakened first by severing it's breast which holds power over men in the case of the method they use to cast out Jezebel.

I was researching the casting out of spirits to better present facts and not my own opinion to my wife as to why I view this group as a money cult. That keeping a running count, over 10,000 exorcisms conducted, shows more than a little pride in casting out these spirits. That sensational testimonies written by themselves instill doubt in Christians. You read about their meetings and can walk away wondering, could that be me?

SPIRITUAL FREEDOM CONFERENCE TESTIMONIES
JUNE 14-15, 2007 - PORTLAND, OREGON
" The second evening was marked by two dramatic deliverance's. Susan was a committed Christian and a loving foster mother who took in special needs, abused children. She brought one of her autistic children for help, not knowing she was the one who needed deliverance, During the ministry time, Susan suddenly manifested demons who screamed, "She's mine, I've tried to kill her but she wouldn't let us.