Organized Religion and the Gospel

[Robert Pate]

Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.

A religious person's main preoccupation is their religion or spirituality and how they might live a life pleasing to God.  The gospel of Jesus Christ is of little to no interest to them.  Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived a life pleasing to God.  All others are sinners and are not capable of leading a life that is pleasing to God.  The only way that a person can please God is by having faith in his son Jesus Christ.  For a person to please God one must be able to keep all of the commandments and ordinances of God's Holy law, which is impossible for them to do because they are still in the flesh of Adam and are in a fallen condition.  Total Christian sanctification does not take place in this life.  We are sinners until the day that we die and are made complete when we are with Christ.  Religion is basically man's belief and apparent absence of faith in the fact that God has already dealt with his sin problem in the person of Jesus Christ.  Lack of faith in the work of Christ (which is the gospel) leaves him with a vacuum in his life that he fills with his religion that gives him the desire to deal with his own sin problem and to establish his own righteousness and spirituality as he sees fit.  This is a pride problem that will send multitudes to hell.

Thomas Jefferson said, "I don't find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.  The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church.  It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him with the atrocious writings of the theologians.  John Calvin was a malignant Spirit."

John Adams said,  "Nowhere in the gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines and a whole boat load of other foolish trumpery than we find Christianity encumbered with."

Abraham Lincoln said,  "Christianity is not my religion.  I can never give asset to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Most Christian seminaries teach systematic theology.  There is no system to the gospel.  Systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer.  This leaves a vacuum in the believer's life and doctrine that will cause them to try to fill this vacuum with their own lives and religion.  Romans chapters 5 and 6 makes it clear that Christ was the new Adam and representative of the human race.  All that Christ did was for us and in our name and on our behalf.  We are saved by his life as well as his death.

One of the attributes of religion is pride.  Religious people are proud and easily offended especially when someone says something negative about their religion, church affiliation, or denomination.  Many religious people want salvation but they want it on their terms or conditions.  the conditions are usually that God must accept their pious lives, their works, their rituals, or something that they do or have become.  They reject God's way of salvation which is the gospel and go about to establish their own way.  The scripture says,  "Their is a way that seems right unto a man but it leads to death and destruction."  Religion is the natural way, it's the way that seems right unto a man.  Do good works, live a clean life and I will be accepted.  If this is the way, then Christ lived and died in vain.  There is only one way to be saved and accepted and that is by the gospel.

Every year there are numerous seminars on how to become a better Christian or how to live the higher victorious Christian life.  These seminars try to teach how you can become a better Christian and have a better relationship with your wife, your children, others and God.  They imply that the trouble is with the believer and his sin problem and they have the answers about what to do about it.  The gospel is usually rejected and the sin problem is now the believer's problem and it is his responsibility to deal with it.  This is a terrible burden to bear because it places one under the law.  The teaching emphasizes that you must confess your sins more, you must read your Bible more, you must give more, you must be more committed, you must, you must, you must.  The rules and instructions are endless.  Sometimes they give you hundreds of pages and diagrams on how to be a more dedicated Christian.  This doesn't really help with the sin problem but rather breeds more sin because the teaching is subjective and causes one to look to themselves for strength and direction.

The Pharisees that Jesus referred to as hypocrites, took the Ten Commandments and came up with over six hundred rules for holy living.  Traditional Christianity does basically the same thing.  It is called living by the letter of the law.  The apostle Paul said, "Do you hear the law?"  Do you understand what is required?  To say that religion causes a person to be subjective may be a understatement.  Satan loves this kind of subjective teaching it turns ones eyes away from Christ who is our righteousness and upon
themselves.

A favorite cliche among many evangelicals is..... "What is Christ doing in your life?"  This doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism.  My question is why would a sinless Christ want to live his life through a depraved sinner?  Or perhaps you think that you have gotten the sin out and now you are righteous.  The work of Christ is a finished work.  To mix up or to confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit is heresy.  Christ is present in the Holy Spirit but his work is a finished work.  The work of the Spirit is ongoing in the life of the believer.

Elitism is promoted in many religious circles.  Many times a pastor will relate to a congregation how he had a supernatural experience from God when he was called into the ministry, which was not really supernatural at all.  It is very hard to refute someone that believes that they have had a supernatural experience from God.  This sets the stage for elitism and the formation of a religious hierarchy within the congregation.  This practice is very common in many congregations.  The fundamental belief is that you must attain to a higher level of spirituality so that you will become more useful to the Lord and to the church like the pastor is.  The apostle Paul referred to this type of teaching as being in bondage to the law.

There is no peace or rest in religion because you never know when you have done enough to be acceptable to God.  Many times pastors will tell their congregations that the Lord cannot use them if they are not a fit vessel.  How fit must you be?  How often must you pray?  How often must you confess your sins? How often must you go to church? How much good works must you do? There is no answer.  What is acceptable? When have you pleased the Lord?  You must strive for perfection, which is not attainable, or the Lord will not be pleased.

Religion is divisive and causes division.  This is why there are more than 79 different religious denominations or branches of religion in the United States.  Every religion has their own idea of how to believe which is usually a law based theology and not based on the historical gospel of Jesus Christ.  the gospel unites and puts us all in the same boat.  In the gospel we are all sinners that are trusting in Christ to save us. In religion there are the elite that think that they are better than others or have attained into something.

The Gospel that Saves

There is no religion in the gospel.  the gospel is about Jesus Christ, his work, his attainment, his perfect life, his victory over sin, his crucifixion. The gospel is about God revealing himself to man in the person of Jesus Christ.  The gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us.
The old Adam brings sin and death.  The new Adam brings righteousness and eternal life.  The old Adam breaks God's Holy Law.  The new Adam restores and fulfills it.  The gospel is about how God embraced our humanity and took it to the cross and put it to death.  Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed.  1st Corinthians 1:30.  All that Jesus Christ is, and all that he has done, is ours by faith alone.

[zoonance]

Religious practices and scripturally obedient servanthood certainly clash.   That part is accurate.

[Rev3:15-19]

I find myself agreeing with you and nodding my head through your article, but you oversimplify a Christians life.  Please answer these two questions to help me understand your stance:

Why is Romans 16 chapters long if things were so simple?

Why is lawlessness brought up so many times in the New Testament?

[dawngordon]

Hebrew 5

7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

as long as you are obeying christ you are saved=everything he says in the bible, all of it

[John 1:1]

Having been raised Catholic, I agree with you on the dogma, ceremony, extra rules, etc. having Catholic mass falling out of favor with me due to those was only part of it, the fact that there really was no fellowship, not really, to me was the main element that I felt was lacking.

Some years later, I went to several protestant services and found the Baptists to have the better service since there was less ceremony.  We had a little fellowship, such as bible study which was good. 

The key element, such as the main reason we are here, is to be around others that think the same way.  I've spent a great deal too long going at it alone, and the world does tend to wear on your faith if that is all you are facing.  I also think you mentioned how the first century churches were better and closer to what was meant to be.

[Rev3:15-19]

Hebrew 5

7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

as long as you are obeying christ you are saved=everything he says in the bible, all of it

You see this is the other extreme....Dawn, you make it sound as if being perfect in Christ is the only way....that's the point, we strive to "live in the spirit" by walking as Christ walked but at the end of the day we must realize that we are wretched sinners who sin by purpose and without EVEN TRYING TO SIN!!!!  At the end of the day....he is our salvation and cleanses us from all unrighteosness.  Repentance does not mean perfection, only Christ=perfection.

[Robert Pate]

dawngordon

We are not saved by our obedience, we are saved by his obedience.  You have it backwards.

[Robert Pate]

Rev3:15-19

The Christian life is a life of faith, whatever comes out of it is to God's glory.

The reason the book of Romans is so long is because salvation by grace through faith alone is not compatible with human nature.

[Robert Pate]

john1:1

The less ritual in a church the better. You will probably find more fellowship in a small group of believers.

[RichardBurger]

Robert, this is a very good OP. It looks like we see religion in the same way.

The religious mind is what crucified Jesus and has always persecuted the children of God.

[Robert Pate]

RichardBurger

I didn't say near enough.  I left out a large portion about Phariseeism.  Yes we are of like Spirit.

[Harold]

Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.

A religious person's main preoccupation is their religion or spirituality and how they might live a life pleasing to God.  The gospel of Jesus Christ is of little to no interest to them.  Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived a life pleasing to God.  All others are sinners and are not capable of leading a life that is pleasing to God.  The only way that a person can please God is by having faith in his son Jesus Christ.  For a person to please God one must be able to keep all of the commandments and ordinances of God's Holy law, which is impossible for them to do because they are still in the flesh of Adam and are in a fallen condition.  Total Christian sanctification does not take place in this life.  We are sinners until the day that we die and are made complete when we are with Christ.  Religion is basically man's belief and apparent absence of faith in the fact that God has already dealt with his sin problem in the person of Jesus Christ.  Lack of faith in the work of Christ (which is the gospel) leaves him with a vacuum in his life that he fills with his religion that gives him the desire to deal with his own sin problem and to establish his own righteousness and spirituality as he sees fit.  This is a pride problem that will send multitudes to hell.

Thomas Jefferson said, "I don't find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.  The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church.  It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him with the atrocious writings of the theologians.  John Calvin was a malignant Spirit."

John Adams said,  "Nowhere in the gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines and a whole boat load of other foolish trumpery than we find Christianity encumbered with."

Abraham Lincoln said,  "Christianity is not my religion.  I can never give asset to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Most Christian seminaries teach systematic theology.  There is no system to the gospel.  Systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer.  This leaves a vacuum in the believer's life and doctrine that will cause them to try to fill this vacuum with their own lives and religion.  Romans chapters 5 and 6 makes it clear that Christ was the new Adam and representative of the human race.  All that Christ did was for us and in our name and on our behalf.  We are saved by his life as well as his death.

One of the attributes of religion is pride.  Religious people are proud and easily offended especially when someone says something negative about their religion, church affiliation, or denomination.  Many religious people want salvation but they want it on their terms or conditions.  the conditions are usually that God must accept their pious lives, their works, their rituals, or something that they do or have become.  They reject God's way of salvation which is the gospel and go about to establish their own way.  The scripture says,  "Their is a way that seems right unto a man but it leads to death and destruction."  Religion is the natural way, it's the way that seems right unto a man.  Do good works, live a clean life and I will be accepted.  If this is the way, then Christ lived and died in vain.  There is only one way to be saved and accepted and that is by the gospel.

Every year there are numerous seminars on how to become a better Christian or how to live the higher victorious Christian life.  These seminars try to teach how you can become a better Christian and have a better relationship with your wife, your children, others and God.  They imply that the trouble is with the believer and his sin problem and they have the answers about what to do about it.  The gospel is usually rejected and the sin problem is now the believer's problem and it is his responsibility to deal with it.  This is a terrible burden to bear because it places one under the law.  The teaching emphasizes that you must confess your sins more, you must read your Bible more, you must give more, you must be more committed, you must, you must, you must.  The rules and instructions are endless.  Sometimes they give you hundreds of pages and diagrams on how to be a more dedicated Christian.  This doesn't really help with the sin problem but rather breeds more sin because the teaching is subjective and causes one to look to themselves for strength and direction.

The Pharisees that Jesus referred to as hypocrites, took the Ten Commandments and came up with over six hundred rules for holy living.  Traditional Christianity does basically the same thing.  It is called living by the letter of the law.  The apostle Paul said, "Do you hear the law?"  Do you understand what is required?  To say that religion causes a person to be subjective may be a understatement.  Satan loves this kind of subjective teaching it turns ones eyes away from Christ who is our righteousness and upon
themselves.

A favorite cliche among many evangelicals is..... "What is Christ doing in your life?"  This doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism.  My question is why would a sinless Christ want to live his life through a depraved sinner?  Or perhaps you think that you have gotten the sin out and now you are righteous.  The work of Christ is a finished work.  To mix up or to confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit is heresy.  Christ is present in the Holy Spirit but his work is a finished work.  The work of the Spirit is ongoing in the life of the believer.

Elitism is promoted in many religious circles.  Many times a pastor will relate to a congregation how he had a supernatural experience from God when he was called into the ministry, which was not really supernatural at all.  It is very hard to refute someone that believes that they have had a supernatural experience from God.  This sets the stage for elitism and the formation of a religious hierarchy within the congregation.  This practice is very common in many congregations.  The fundamental belief is that you must attain to a higher level of spirituality so that you will become more useful to the Lord and to the church like the pastor is.  The apostle Paul referred to this type of teaching as being in bondage to the law.

There is no peace or rest in religion because you never know when you have done enough to be acceptable to God.  Many times pastors will tell their congregations that the Lord cannot use them if they are not a fit vessel.  How fit must you be?  How often must you pray?  How often must you confess your sins? How often must you go to church? How much good works must you do? There is no answer.  What is acceptable? When have you pleased the Lord?  You must strive for perfection, which is not attainable, or the Lord will not be pleased.

Religion is divisive and causes division.  This is why there are more than 79 different religious denominations or branches of religion in the United States.  Every religion has their own idea of how to believe which is usually a law based theology and not based on the historical gospel of Jesus Christ.  the gospel unites and puts us all in the same boat.  In the gospel we are all sinners that are trusting in Christ to save us. In religion there are the elite that think that they are better than others or have attained into something.

The Gospel that Saves

There is no religion in the gospel.  the gospel is about Jesus Christ, his work, his attainment, his perfect life, his victory over sin, his crucifixion. The gospel is about God revealing himself to man in the person of Jesus Christ.  The gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us.
The old Adam brings sin and death.  The new Adam brings righteousness and eternal life.  The old Adam breaks God's Holy Law.  The new Adam restores and fulfills it.  The gospel is about how God embraced our humanity and took it to the cross and put it to death.  Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed.  1st Corinthians 1:30.  All that Jesus Christ is, and all that he has done, is ours by faith alone.

And thus the Robert Religion and denomination, by definition you make yourself a religion. You have rules that must be followed.

FTL

[Robert Pate]

Harold

Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Charles Sloan]

john1:1

The less ritual in a church the better. You will probably find more fellowship in a small group of believers.

Robert,

What size group of believers do you fellowship with?

[bemark]

Religion

Knowing the word      but not knowing the word

[Harold]

Harold

Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Believe what?

FTL

[Robert Pate]

Charles Sloan

Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased.  I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible.  The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.

[John 1:1]

Charles Sloan

Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased.  I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible.  The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.

Then let them all join here, also, I'm sure, there will be many new members that want to join yoiur group....

[Charles Sloan]

Charles Sloan

Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased.  I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible.  The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.

I feel that your difficulty may not be because of their interpretation of the Bible, but maybe the bases you hold because of your interpretation. But I take from your comment that since your fellowship consists of people "scattered all over the world", that you are considering internet correspondence like this equivalent to true fellowship and assembly. Or at very least a surrogate.

I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with despite your petty differences and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time.

James and I were talking about inviting you to attend a VCY Rally with us in February. Since you live in our area, I think it would do you some good. Think about it and let us know.

[RichardBurger]

Many just don't get it. A Child of God is never alone. God is with him/her all the time. If you think that because you go to a church building where others congregate, go to a picnic with a group of people, you are closer to God you are miss-taken.

I think it is arrogance to call what someone else believes "petty."

Perhaps some think that the individual child of God is brain dead and must have those who think they know it all rule over them. They seem to think Jesus was telling a lie when He say we have just one teacher. But it is the nature of man to want to control others.

I, for one, have had my fill of those that think they are closer to God than others because of what they do. A forum is SUPPOSED to be a place where people can express their ideas. But is seems that many don't really want others to do that. God help the man that has an idea that they don't have. What these people don't understand is that they drive many from expressing their ideas on forums and make them lakes of Piranha

[RichardBurger]

Charles Sloan

Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased.  I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible.  The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.

I feel that your difficulty may not be because of their interpretation of the Bible, but maybe the bases you hold because of your interpretation. But I take from your comment that since your fellowship consists of people "scattered all over the world", that you are considering internet correspondence like this equivalent to true fellowship and assembly. Or at very least a surrogate.

I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with despite your petty differences and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time.

James and I were talking about inviting you to attend a VCY Rally with us in February. Since you live in our area, I think it would do you some good. Think about it and let us know.

Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?

I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert. You have just as many faults as he does.

[RichardBurger]

Charles Sloan

Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased.  I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible.  The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.

Then let them all join here, also, I'm sure, there will be many new members that want to join yoiur group....

I am sure Robert feels the same as I do. It would be wonderful to have the people I know join in on this forum. They could then see all the things that are said about me by people that disagree with me and the words they use as put downs to discribe me.

[Charles Sloan]

If you think that because you go to a church building where others congregate, go to a picnic with a group of people, you are closer to God you are miss-taken.

Rich,

Where do you see that idea in my post. I never said anything about going to church makes anyone closer to God. You seem to have a habit of shoving words into peoples mouths and building strawmen just so you have something to attack.

I think it is arrogance to call what someone else believes "petty."

I said their differences are petty, and all divisions in the Body of Christ are nothing but petty carnality. If you don't believe me, go read 1Corinthians 3:3.

Perhaps some think that the individual child of God is brain dead and must have those who think they know it all rule over them. They seem to think Jesus was telling a lie when He say we have just one teacher. But it is the nature of man to want to control others.

Perhaps there are those like you who think they don't have to submit to overseers or other people in the Body of Christ because no one could possibly know more about the Bible than you. But contrary to your beliefs of just having one teacher, the Holy Spirit makes pastors, deacons, teachers and evangelists. And that same Spirit bade you to submit to them for they watch for your soul. So you don't kick against me Rich, you kick against the Lord.

I, for one, have had my fill of those that think they are closer to God than others because of what they do.

What I have had my fill of is you and your posse turning every exhortation, every encouragement, every passage of God inspired Scripture and twisting it into works based salvation. You wrest everything said on this forum and turn it into a strawman so you can look like you know something about theology. I'll tell you what I'm sick of, and I'm certain I'm not alone; I'm sick of the constant regurgitation of antinomian mantra and your preaching of grace turned licence.

You are an antinomian schismatist.

[Robert Pate]

Charles Sloan

Thanks for the invitation, but it looks like a meeting of people who go to the organized church.  I don't believe in denominationalism, neither did Paul.  Biggest problem with organized religion is that they have all been to the same seminary, unfortunately they didn't get the truth there.  They have all been taught systematic theology, systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer.  You see I believe that Christ lived a life of perfect obedience for me.  I believe that life was my life.  I believe that when Christ came into the world, I came into the world with him, he is my new humanity.

[Charles Sloan]

Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?

Rich,

I don't believe you will find that I offered or assumed the responsibility to teach, or oversee Robert in my post. But if anyone has been made an overseer over Roberts soul, they would have been made that by God. If you don't believe that God makes overseers, please read Acts 20:28.

I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert.

I think that since we are discussing Roberts beliefs, we are infact discussing Robert. And since Rob volunteered this information, I don't believe he needs you to make a defense for him or to protect him from what he publicly admits. I'm sure Robert is an adult, and can answer for himself.

You have just as many faults as he does.

Indeed, maybe more. But the issue isn't a question of faults or me pointing my finger at him, throwing stones, or saying I'm better than him. I am encouraging him to go to church, is that a crime to you?

[Charles Sloan]

Charles Sloan

Thanks for the invitation, but it looks like a meeting of people who go to the organized church.  I don't believe in denominationalism, neither did Paul.  Biggest problem with organized religion is that they have all been to the same seminary, unfortunately they didn't get the truth there.  They have all been taught systematic theology, systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer.  You see I believe that Christ lived a life of perfect obedience for me.  I believe that life was my life.  I believe that when Christ came into the world, I came into the world with him, he is my new humanity.

Rob,

Don't judge them before you meet them. I'm sure you will enjoy the Rally, and find that the speaker there (Paul Washer) is practically a modern day prophet of a preacher. Its not about denominationalism, which is something we agree on completely.

Just think about it.

[RichardBurger]

Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?

Rich,

I don't believe you will find that I offered or assumed the responsibility to teach, or oversee Robert in my post. But if anyone has been made an overseer over Roberts soul, that would have been made that by God. If you don't believe that God makes overseers, please read Acts 20:28.

I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert.

I think that since we are discussing Roberts beliefs, we are infact discussing Robert. And since Rob volunteered this information, I don't believe he needs you to make a defense for him or to protect him from what he publicly admits. I'm sure Robert is an adult, and can answer for himself.

You have just as many faults as he does.

Indeed, maybe more. But the issue isn't a question of faults or me pointing my finger at him, throwing stones, or saying I'm better than him. I am encouraging him to go to church, is that a crime to you?

So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!

According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.

The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.

[Charles Sloan]

So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!

Richard,

I fairly asked him if he went to church and he admitted he doesn't. That was an open confession, and I responded to that confession. I am not scrutinizing his life, activities, or behaviors other than what he openly admitted too. If you have a problem with Robert honestly answering my question, or me responding to his answer; maybe the problem lies with you.

According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.

I agree that the Spirit will give use discernment, but doesn't mean that everyones a liar and we should hide in the corner and read our Bible. There are genuine, sincere teachers out there who are trying to raise up men to live godly lives. God is using them to reveal the truth of the Scriptures and to feed the sheep of the flock. This is the reason the Bible constantly exhorts use to assemble with other Christians and not to forsake the assembly.

If you think you don't need the fold or a shepherd, then you are the one mistaken.

The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.

Back to the scarecrow and his wonderful song.

I am not apart of the RCC, and your attempt to characterize me like them is just plain stupid. I would have expected more of an sound argument from you than just the wild and flagrant attack of depicting me as an Inquisitor. I simply attempted to use this as an opportunity to invite Robert to come to a VCY Rally, and encourage him to go back to church and you in turn are comparing me to a group that persecutes, kills, and otherwise burns people at the stake. Yeah, real accurate depiction there Rich.

Are you so enraged about my comments to Robert because you don't attend church either?

[RichardBurger]

So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!

Richard,

I fairly asked him if he went to church and he admitted he doesn't. That was an open confession, and I responded to that confession. I am not scrutinizing his life, activities, or behaviors other than what he openly admitted too. If you have a problem with Robert honestly answering my question, or me responding to his answer; maybe the problem lies with you.

According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.

I agree that the Spirit will give use discernment, but doesn't mean that everyones a liar and we should hide in the corner and read our Bible. There are genuine, sincere teachers out there who are trying to raise up men to live godly lives. God is using them to reveal the truth of the Scriptures and to feed the sheep of the flock. This is the reason the Bible constantly exhorts use to assemble with other Christians and not to forsake the assembly.

If you think you don't need the fold or a shepherd, then you are the one mistaken.

The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.

Back to the scarecrow and his wonderful song.

I am not apart of the RCC, and your attempt to characterize me like them is just plain stupid. I would have expected more of an sound argument from you than just the wild and flagrant attack of depicting me as an Inquisitor. I simply attempted to use this as an opportunity to invite Robert to come to a VCY Rally, and encourage him to go back to church and you in turn are comparing me to a group that persecutes, kills, and otherwise burns people at the stake. Yeah, real accurate depiction there Rich.

Are you so enraged about my comments to Robert because you don't attend church either?

I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.

You said to Robert, "I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with ****despite your petty differences**** and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time."

You called Robert's differences "PETTY."

Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.

Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

[RichardBurger]

Message: Who do you trust?

I do not have faith (trust) in the scripture understanding of other men, or in organized religions, for my salvation. Nor do I put my trust in my own understanding of scriptures for my salvation. I place my trust in Jesus who is alive and sits at the right hand of God. I am saved by God's grace through what Jesus did for me on the cross. I claim nothing else. Let me also say that trusting in religion(s) will not save anyone either. There is a big difference between trusting in God and trusting in a religion that men say God left us with. A religion is NOT God.

John 5:39-40     (NIV)
39   You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40   yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

You must, personally, go to Him in your heart.

Prov 3:5-7     (NKJ)
5   Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
6   In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
7   Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and depart from evil.

"""" and He shall direct your paths """"

Read below to see some of all the things Jesus promises to those "INDIVIDUALS" that "PERSONALLY" trust in Him.

Ps 118:5-9    (NIV)
5   In my anguish I cried to the LORD, and he answered by setting me free.
6   The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?
7   The LORD is with me; he is my helper. I will look in triumph on my enemies.
8   It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
9   It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.

""""" It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man """"

Ps 9:10    (NIV)
10   Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.

Ps 13:5    (NIV)
5   But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.

Ps 20:7    (NIV)
7   Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

Ps 31:6    (NIV)
6   I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.

Ps 31:14    (NIV)
14   But I trust in you, O LORD; I say, "You are my God."

Ps 33:20-22    (NIV)
20   We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield.
21   In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name.
22   May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you.

Ps 40:3-4    (NIV)
3   He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD.
4   Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.

Ps 49:12-13    (NIV)
12   But man, despite his riches, does not endure; he is like the beasts that perish.
13   This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. Selah

Ps 52:8    (NIV)
8   But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever.

Ps 55:23    (NIV)
23   But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you.

Ps 56:3-4    (NIV)
3   When I am afraid, I will trust in you.
4   In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?

Ps 62:7-8    (NIV)
7   My salvation and my honor depend on God; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
8   Trust in him at all times, O people; pour out your hearts to him, for God is our refuge. Selah

Ps 119:41-42    (NIV)
41   May your unfailing love come to me, O LORD, your salvation according to your promise;
42   then I will answer the one who taunts me, for I trust in your word.

Ps 125:1    (NIV)
1   Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken but endures forever.

Ps 143:8-12    (NIV)
8   Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul.
9   Rescue me from my enemies, O LORD, for I hide myself in you.
10   Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.
11   For your name's sake, O LORD, preserve my life; in your righteousness, bring me out of trouble.
12   In your unfailing love, silence my enemies; destroy all my foes, for I am your servant.

Prov 3:3-7    (NIV)
3   Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.
4   Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man.
5   Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6   in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
7   Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil.

Jer 39:18    (NIV)
18   I will save you; you will not fall by the sword but will escape with your life, because you trust in me, declares the LORD.'"

Jer 48:7    (NIV)
7   Since you trust in your deeds and riches, you too will be taken captive, and Chemosh will go into exile, together with his priests and officials.

Nahum 1:7    (NIV)
7   The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,

John 14:1    (NIV)
1   "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

Rom 15:13    (NIV)
13   May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Heb 2:11-13    (NIV)
11   Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
12   He says, "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises."
13   And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me."

Matt 10:32    (NIV)
32   "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

Matt 11:25-28    (NIV)
25   At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
26   Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27   "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28   "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

In verse 25 above you will see that it is God that reveals the truth to His Children.

It is written;
Heb 11:6
6   But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (NKJ)

There is nothing in Heb 11:6 about doing works for God.

[Charles Sloan]

I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.

Richard,

I never said Robert's beliefs are petty, I said his differences are. This is the second time I've corrected you. I am not your father, neither are you my child; I am not going to repeat myself to your obstinacy on this point further.

Differences in the Body of Christ are petty if the are not something fundamentally wrong with doctrine. Just because someone doesn't believe a group, (or any group), teaches a "historical" Gospel doesn't seem like a issue with the group and seem more like a problem with the individual. But you are free to think what you want, my intrests are well placed and motives are his well being. I could seriously careless what you think at this point.

Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.

Duh.

God oversees the overseers. Since hes the one that makes them, it would only stand to reason that he oversees them. But I think if anyone here is failing to see something it is you, since you seem to be advocating a disbelief in overseers as if they are a myth or a false concept.

Why don't to expound your theological views on Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.

Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

You must highlight your Bible with a black magic marker.

[RichardBurger]

I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.

Richard,

I never said Robert's beliefs are petty, I said his differences are. This is the second time I've corrected you. I am not your father, neither are you my child; I am not going to repeat myself to your obstinacy on this point further.

Differences in the Body of Christ are petty if the are not something fundamentally wrong with doctrine. Just because someone doesn't believe a group, (or any group), teaches a "historical" Gospel doesn't seem like a issue with the group and seem more like a problem with the individual. But you are free to think what you want, my intrests are well placed and motives are his well being. I could seriously careless what you think at this point.

Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.

Duh.

God oversees the overseers. Since hes the one that makes them, it would only stand to reason that he oversees them. But I think if anyone here is failing to see something it is you, since you seem to be advocating a disbelief in overseers as if they are a myth or a false concept.

Why don't to expound your theological views on Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.

Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

You must highlight your Bible with a black magic marker.

And this is the third time I am going to try and make you see what you are doing.

Can you really not see it??? And his differences are????? Isn't it what he believes???

So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.

My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.

[Charles Sloan]

So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.

I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.

My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.

Jesus is in control, but that doesn't mean that people aren't still called to shepherd (teach, exhort, admonish, watchover, etc.) the flock. But from what you are expressing, you are not really apart of the body but are more apart from the body. Especially since you characterize everyone as liars and deceivers that are called to teach and preach the word.

[RichardBurger]

So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.

I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.

My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.

Jesus is in control, but that doesn't mean that people aren't still called to shepherd (teach, exhort, admonish, watchover, etc.) the flock. But from what you are expressing, you are not really apart of the body but are more apart from the body. Especially since you characterize everyone as liars and deceivers that are called to teach and preach the word.

There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? --  Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.

Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.

You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?

[Charles Sloan]

There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? --  Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.

I never said that anyone is to rule over anyone, thats just another of your scarecrows. Overseers are not people who rule the church, nor does the shepherd rule over the flock. The shepherd lovingly cares for the flock, and lies down his life for the flock. So your mischaracterization is telling of the weakness and lack of proof for your rejection of human eldership.

Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.

I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted. See, you take everything ot an illogical end just to justify your argument. Neither did I ever say our trust was to be in men over God, please if I have show me. But this is another of your strawmen in the ranks of your scarecrow army that you use to hedge your arguments.

You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?

I won't be holding my breath because I know you can't explain it, the passages explain themselves.

Again I will pose the proposition that your disease with this topic, and my questions toward Robert is because you yourself don't go to church. And all you are doing is trying to quell your conviction by justifing yourself before men. But with all your dead horses and all your straw men you fail to prove why we shouldn't go to chuch over and over again.