Intimacy and the Christian marriage *candid mature discussion*

[Meh]

*If you mods feel that is not the right section for this, feel free to move it*

As I have stated in my introduction post, I have made the decision to return to the church. I have spent a very long time in contemplation about many aspects of Christianity and the relation that being a Christian has in our lives to how it affects our lives. I have many thoughts and questions that are also rooted in some of the most difficult subjects to talk about. I tend to be rather candid and open about what things I discuss and in this post I would like to discuss intimacy within a Christian marriage. Yes, sex will be major part of this discussion. But I will be bringing up other subjects in the future.

One of the major stumbling blocks that I have encountered time and again with Christians is shame. There are many things within the scripture that a person should not do as well as many that a person should be doing. The physical intimacy between a husband and wife does not appear to get a lot of attention. There are many passages about relations out of wedlock and adultery. There are many references about the pitfalls of lust. Many Christians are unsure as to where physical intimacy falls within the life of a Christian. This is a tough subject and has always been. Sex, the desire for, the act of, and the thought of is an aspect of each of our lives. But what do we understand about it?

Many marriages are caught in the grip of shame. We are to be fruitful and multiply and we can only do so in a natural way through sexual reproduction. Many couples are unsure of this subject, stuck between the fact that physical intimacy is a part of their lives and a desire to follow God's word. But where does the line fall between what is right to do and what is wrong to do between a married couple, what is shameful and what is not?

This subject is not one that I hear brought up very often. It is not a subject that receives a lot of attention because many leaders within the church body and the couples themselves tend to have a difficult time broaching the subject. Very few people have a great understanding of the subject due to the stigma of shame that is attached to anything related to physical intimacy. While the subject is not something of major import to the life led as a Christian, it is also an aspect of a Christian's life that is rarely addressed. Because this subject is a cause of problems within some marriages and because there is so much shame attributed to the subject I would like to know why there is so little understood about it.

This subject is not one that affects some people but not all. It is something that each and every one of us has as a part of our lives. The lack of understanding on this subject leads to a great deal of confusion. The shame attributed can lead to repression, and the repression of any aspect of ourselves can lead to all sorts of problems.

My feeling on this subject is that this subject needs to be addressed. Not in a Sunday sermon or in a large group setting but in small group settings. A greater understanding of the subject needs to be reached by the leadership of the church body and set into a format that is of a mature and clear nature. I am not talking about graphic and lurid talk but candid and clear discussion between adults. Breaching the taboo subject and shedding light on what it is to be a Christian couple that is able to be comfortable with physical intimacy within their marriage. Replace the stigma of shame with understanding and remove a barrier in the lives of many marriages by teaching and discussing the subject with the church body.

[Robert Pate]

Meh

One of the works of Satan is to accuse.  He wants to put you on a guilt trip, he knows that if you are feeling shame you will be an ineffective Christian.  The solution to the problem is the gospel.  God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided us with salvation that is completely outside of ourselves.  The gospel is a past historical event, we had nothing to do with it. Your salvation is not based on your performance, but is based upon Christ's performance. There is no need for you to feel guilt.  In God's eyes you are as white as snow. There are wonderful benefits to being a gospel believing Christian. For one it lets you join the human race.  There is no freedom in religion, because religion wants you to be like God. see my post "Do You Believe The Gospel"  "If the Son has made you free, you shall be free indeed."

[Robert Pate]

marc

I think that these kinds of discussions are a doctrine problem.

[zoonance]

With the right doctrine the shame disappears?

I agree that there has to be a way to discuss... intimate stuff ... in a safe setting that aids in mutual satisfactionary preservation of the home so the two can continue to go about serving Him in other Godly activities as well.  If the home has conflict, so has the home's influences.

[Meh]

I would like to state that I am not feeling any shame about the matter. I began this discussion with the hopes of gaining a greater insight into why this subject does not get alot of thought. While this may be just my opinion, the subject of physical intimacy is something of the dirty little secret of being a Christian. While the act in itself does not have to be a bad thing, the very subject is like a dark little part of a person's life.

God can illuminate the dark parts of our heart, but what about the parts that we make into a dark place? If we choose to make it wrong and have no understanding of what is right about physical intimacy, are we infact instilling a form of false belief within ourselves? It passes down generations from parent to child. Yes a parent will give the basic outline and the admonishment that it must only be done in wedlock. But what beyond that? It's shameful and dirty to talk about. But why? It is natural to have physical intimacy within a marriage.

I am not trying to focus on any specific part of intimacy or act. I am not trying to defend immoral behavior. But what I want to know is why so many people are ashamed of this part of their lives. Ashamed not only about the physical aspect, but ashamed to seek understanding about it. Where does it end? Why is there no teaching and guidance about this?

[janine]

I have a 'Net friend who has shared that she feels the extra-rigid taboos her religious group taught her, and her young husband, when they married, made it difficult to develop much of a sex life at all.  She blames the pattern set by coming into the marriage that way for the eventual implosion of the marriage.

So I know that even in these modern times when it doesn't seem as if there's ANY shame left in all the world,  some people somewhere are carrying a lot of it re: their own sexuality and how they act upon it.  Or don't.

What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women

What Husbands Wish Their Wives Knew About Men

Sex Begins In The Kitchen

more Christian-viewpoint books on various aspects of sexual intimacy

and of course

Getting Past Guilt, to get us out of that shame trap -- and Becoming One: Emotionally, Spiritually, Sexually, both by our own Joe Beam...

The information is out there.  People can't sit back and wait until sexual intimacy falls into their lap.  That usually only happens where you have to pay the bill to get the intimacy...

They need to do some research if their parents and churches are squelching people down until they feel that intercourse is sinful, in itself, even in a marriage.

We need to work on building up our intimacy with our spouses  With God's help.

[Meh]

The situation is responsible not only for the breakdown of healthy intimacy in a marriage. The mindset that this is a dirty subject leads to many other deep problems. The deviation from what is termed the norm can be attributed to the fact that people do not have an understanding of intimacy. It is not my intention to bring up examples of deviation.

I think that it is important for church leaders to have a role in instilling knowledge about what is right in physical intimacy. Individuals taking the initiative to gain understanding on their own should not be the norm. In a church body where the leadership gives doctrine on every other aspect of a person's life, why is this aspect such a taboo? How many lives are affected by this? How many marriages fall flat because of a lack of knowledge? Can we bring this shadowy part of our lives into the light? Can we teach people to accept the reality of intimacy and how it can be a good and natural thing by teaching what is right and not right?

[Charles Sloan]

There is nothing wrong with sex within the confines of marriage, God made sex for a reason and also made it enjoyable for a reason. If people have hangups when it comes to the bedroom it is more than likely from their upbringing, their teachings, or their personal "taboos" but its definitely not from the Bible. Just a cursory glance through the Song of Songs will dispel any notion that God has a problem with a full and satisfying sexual relationship within the confines of marriage.

[James Rondon]

(Continued stress on "within"...)

[janine]

Meh, just exactly how much do you want a "pastor" to be teaching you and your wife about your marital intimacy? 

You said:

...In a church body where the leadership gives doctrine on every other aspect of a person's life, why is this aspect such a taboo...

Um, no.  It is not the responsibility of a church body to issue doctrine on "every other aspect" of a person's life.  Have you not have troubles within your marriage and with your wife's church & its leader(s) precisely because she has so slavishly aligned herself with their every little teaching?

As for why the subject is/can be taboo -- some taboos are unhelpful and repressive and ought to be broken down (in the right context of course).  Some taboos arose for good reason -- so they don't need to be broken down so much as... reconfigured, I suppose.

Following Jesus ought to slather such a heavy layer of love over everything that the adherence to standards is not a burden but a joy.  I'm looking a lot less for specific directives from a pulpit and a lot more for Godly, Bible-informed advice on how to work these things out for myself.  Preferably from someone with the "fruit on their tree" that I hope to grow in my own life.

Also preferably from a woman, much of the time.

[Meh]

It is not so much about forcing a doctrine about this subject. It is about having it available. Not every person has this problem with understanding their intimacy and what can be right about it. It is not about a blind following. This is about having the knowledge available and about letting people know that it is ok to want to understand it better.

It should be made available is what I am trying to say. The fact that the leadership is willing to offer a workgroup/studygroup to dispell myths and open the subject up to those who want to know more and understand more would be a long step towards finding peace with physical intimacy in many people's lives.

[Robert Pate]

Meh

I have been happily married for 40 years. Compatibility is very important. If you are not compatible it will cause stress in the marriage that will lead to other problems. Everyone should take a compatibility test before they get married. Having the same interest, having similar backgrounds, having the same beliefs, All makes for a healthy marriage.  My wife and I are like partners. We never fight.  If there is a difference we talk it out.  We help each other. We are considerate of each other. I thank God for her every day. We still go out on dates, even after 40 years. Intimacy is important, but it wont be there if you are not compatible. If you are not kind and considerate during the day don't expect fireworks when you go to bed.

[James Rondon]

"pastor"

What's with the quotation marks?

[janine]

I do not consider every guy with "Pastor" on his name tag, desk plate, office door and parking space to actually be one.

A Pastor is as pastoring is done.

[janine]

... The fact that the leadership is willing to offer a workgroup/studygroup to dispell myths and open the subject up to those who want to know more and understand more would be a long step towards finding peace with physical intimacy in many people's lives.

Yes, I can see that.

[James Rondon]

I do not consider every guy with "Pastor" on his name tag, desk plate, office door and parking space to actually be one.

A Pastor is as pastoring is done.

Do you put quotes around others labels such as "preacher", "minister", "elder", "deacon", etc.? Or is this, perhaps, more of a reaction to the term "pastor" itself, based on CoC preaching and teaching?

[Charles Sloan]

Maybe if we were talking about bishops or overseers, that wouldn't be the case...

[janine]

Having first "met" Meh in a context where a fellow who was supposed to be a pastor appeared to be holding something approaching a cult-like sway over Mrs. Meh --

And then to see a phrase from Meh like "...In a church body where the leadership gives doctrine on every other aspect of a person's life..."

I figured it did not hurt to draw the connection and remind us that not every person bearing that title is wielding that shepherd's crook super-well.

But, assuming all is well with the church leadership, yah, of course they ought to provide whatever pasturage the flock needs to be well-rounded.  Including information and Godly direction  re: sexual intimacy.

[zoonance]

I do not consider every guy with "Pastor" on his name tag, desk plate, office door and parking space to actually be one.

A Pastor is as pastoring is done.

Do you put quotes around others labels such as "preacher", "minister", "elder", "deacon", etc.? Or is this, perhaps, more of a reaction to the term "pastor" itself, based on CoC preaching and teaching?

"Yes" "everything" "we" "do" "is" "a" "reaction" "based" "on" "coc" "preaching" "and" "teaching"  "Is" "everything" "you" "do" "based" "on" "making" "sure" "we" "recognize" "that" "we" "are" "like"
"sheep" "without" "a" "shepard"?

[Robert Pate]

Jesus said,  "Beware of men."

[janine]

So too do lesbians.  Please elaborate.

[david johnson]

i see the intimacy problem!  there's a concern over quotation marks on a thread dealing with sex within marriage.

dj

[janine]

Uh... ok. 

[janine]

" "

[david johnson]

did you mean "?", "!", " ", ":",...oh, dear....

dj

[janine]

Apparently you and I just aren't intimate enough to understand each other, dj.

Que sera, sera.

[david johnson]

yeah, reckon we'd best practice.

[janine]

I'll send you a 100-question survey to fill out so we can get to know each other better.

[zoonance]

1) What do you mean by "  "?

[Dennis]

Looking at the title of this thread, I was half hoping it would be going in a different direction.  I agree that intimacy is important -- no, vital to healthy marriage.  But I see intimacy as broader that just physical intimacy.  Intimacy includes knowing, really knowing your spouse [and more than in the KJV sense].  For example, I talk openly with my wife about many things I would NEVER hint at with anyone else.  I am comfortable around her in ways I would not be with anyone else.  I simply cannot imagine that level of intimacy with anyone else. That makes it difficult for me to see myself in another relationship and, in my opinion much less likely I would even consider trying one.  I think it is much easier to see oneself in another relationship when that intimacy is not present and thus more likely. Sex is certainly part of intimacy, but I think it goes much, much deeper than sex alone.

[zoonance]

Looking at the title of this thread, I was half hoping it would be going in a different direction.  I agree that intimacy is important -- no, vital to healthy marriage.  But I see intimacy as broader that just physical intimacy.  Intimacy includes knowing, really knowing your spouse [and more than in the KJV sense].  For example, I talk openly with my wife about many things I would NEVER hint at with anyone else.  I am comfortable around her in ways I would not be with anyone else.  I simply cannot imagine that level of intimacy with anyone else. That makes it difficult for me to see myself in another relationship and, in my opinion much less likely I would even consider trying one.  I think it is much easier to see oneself in another relationship when that intimacy is not present and thus more likely. Sex is certainly part of intimacy, but I think it goes much, much deeper than sex alone.

That is very true.  However, "candid mature discussion" suggests sex more than best friend dialogue.  I think that is why it went the way it did!

[Dennis]

Looking at the title of this thread, I was half hoping it would be going in a different direction.  I agree that intimacy is important -- no, vital to healthy marriage.  But I see intimacy as broader that just physical intimacy.  Intimacy includes knowing, really knowing your spouse [and more than in the KJV sense].  For example, I talk openly with my wife about many things I would NEVER hint at with anyone else.  I am comfortable around her in ways I would not be with anyone else.  I simply cannot imagine that level of intimacy with anyone else. That makes it difficult for me to see myself in another relationship and, in my opinion much less likely I would even consider trying one.  I think it is much easier to see oneself in another relationship when that intimacy is not present and thus more likely. Sex is certainly part of intimacy, but I think it goes much, much deeper than sex alone.

That is very true.  However, "candid mature discussion" suggests sex more than best friend dialogue.  I think that is why it went the way it did!

I guess what I was hoping for (I said "half hoping," I am not naive) was sex and . . . the other [Which I can tell you makes the sex a lot better.  That is, the more the personal intimacy grows, the better the physical intimacy becomes.  Now at almost 32 years it is better than ever (how is that for candid and mature?)]

[zoonance]

Looking at the title of this thread, I was half hoping it would be going in a different direction.  I agree that intimacy is important -- no, vital to healthy marriage.  But I see intimacy as broader that just physical intimacy.  Intimacy includes knowing, really knowing your spouse [and more than in the KJV sense].  For example, I talk openly with my wife about many things I would NEVER hint at with anyone else.  I am comfortable around her in ways I would not be with anyone else.  I simply cannot imagine that level of intimacy with anyone else. That makes it difficult for me to see myself in another relationship and, in my opinion much less likely I would even consider trying one.  I think it is much easier to see oneself in another relationship when that intimacy is not present and thus more likely. Sex is certainly part of intimacy, but I think it goes much, much deeper than sex alone.

That is very true.  However, "candid mature discussion" suggests sex more than best friend dialogue.  I think that is why it went the way it did!

I guess what I was hoping for (I said "half hoping," I am not naive) was sex and . . . the other [Which I can tell you makes the sex a lot better.  That is, the more the personal intimacy grows, the better the physical intimacy becomes.  Now at almost 32 years it is better than ever (how is that for candid and mature?)]

That is definitely candid and mature!   Same here, though I have only been married for a mere (sp?) 25 years.   In 7 more years .... I can only imagine!  

[janine]

In my biased opinion, many components that make good sex what it is are cut out of the picture, when the (mental emotional etc.) intimacy is missing.  Like the difference between eating fresh well-prepared exciting nutritious food, and plasticky fake overprocessed unnaturally colored food.  Perhaps both will keep you alive, but the latter won't provide for much of a life.

[Bon Voyage]

Looking at the title of this thread, I was half hoping it would be going in a different direction.  I agree that intimacy is important -- no, vital to healthy marriage.  But I see intimacy as broader that just physical intimacy.  Intimacy includes knowing, really knowing your spouse [and more than in the KJV sense].  For example, I talk openly with my wife about many things I would NEVER hint at with anyone else.  I am comfortable around her in ways I would not be with anyone else.  I simply cannot imagine that level of intimacy with anyone else. That makes it difficult for me to see myself in another relationship and, in my opinion much less likely I would even consider trying one.  I think it is much easier to see oneself in another relationship when that intimacy is not present and thus more likely. Sex is certainly part of intimacy, but I think it goes much, much deeper than sex alone.

That is very true.  However, "candid mature discussion" suggests sex more than best friend dialogue.  I think that is why it went the way it did!

I guess what I was hoping for (I said "half hoping," I am not naive) was sex and . . . the other [Which I can tell you makes the sex a lot better.  That is, the more the personal intimacy grows, the better the physical intimacy becomes.  Now at almost 32 years it is better than ever (how is that for candid and mature?)]

That is definitely candid and mature!   Same here, though I have only been married for a mere (sp?) 25 years.   In 7 more years .... I can only imagine!   

Dennis, your marriage is older than me.  Zoo, your marriage is only a few years younger than me.  But I am just a young whippersnapper.