Are you a true Christian based business, or are you kidding yourself...

[John 1:1]

I've done alot of business with churches and individuals that consider themselves to be Christian, yet on many occassions, it reaches the point where I'm dealing with a very ruthless, secular mindset and I've been pushed to extreems in this area.  I initially think, well, this place has some values, they have a heart, they are not seeking to take advantage of me and my operation, yet all to often, reglardless of the extensive discounts I offer specifically because they are a church, or christian based operation, all things Christian goes out the window and I'm dealing yet with another heartless, cold blooded entity.  I think to myself, why did I bother with the extra's, and the discounts in the first place if this is how I am going to be treated in the process, that if I knew how they operated before hand, I'd charge and offer them the same as the rest of the corporate gougers.  In fact, I'd simply turn them away knowing full well I am going to take a loss in the matter and not even being thanked in the process, what's worse is being berrated in the end..

This recent client, what a piece of work, I hardly think there are any Christian values to this one at all, what happened between the time at church and the time facing and dealing with vendor's such as myself.  I often wonder, should I even have a policy in place favoring these entities since this is how many of these are going to behave when it comes down to business.  I guess my question is, are you honestly thinking with your Christian values, or are you thinking with worldly ones and lying to yourself and to others that your company is based upon the former.

That to the side, regardless of what kind of an entity is created, are you taking the blame for your actions or are you pawning them off on others.  Again, current client, case in point, flawed business plan, lack of structure and abilities, highly disorganized with her thought process, yet I bent over backwards to pick up the slack she let loose due to delaying on the deposit, knowing full well that there is a deadline to operate her gig.  Now, I'm going, ok, that crisis is overted, only to find out after the fact, she wasn't ready with the rest of what she needed to do on her end, and I stop to ask myself, why did I just extend myself in this manner.  I guess it's time for a new company policy, and unfortunately, it's gotta be a worldly one, ie. no early production, if they drop the ball, I will no longer pick up their slack, it's simply not worth it.

[Rumely]

A friend of mine was stiffed to the tune of $20k by a contractor from his church.  When they tried to resolve the issue through the church, the leadership backed the contractor.  Sadly, when I see a business or service (otherwise secular by nature) advertising the fact that it is "Christian", I tend to avoid it.  I've just heard too many horror stories.  My philosophy is:  let your personal behavior and business practices demonstrate your faith.  The louder someone shouts about how Christian they are, the more I doubt the truth of it.

As a related note, I ran into a businessman years ago who, upon learning who I was, told me about my long-deceased grandfather.  Apparently, when he would bring a load of grain to the elevator, the operator would ask him how much he had in the load.  His reputation for honesty was such that they would accept the load according to his word.  That's my model for operating a "Christian" business.

[seekr]

I guess it's time for a new company policy, and unfortunately, it's gotta be a worldly one, ie. no early production, if they drop the ball, I will no longer pick up their slack, it's simply not worth it.

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

So basically you are going to adapt to the system that will keep you from getting hurt. Hmmmm! What WOULD Jesus do?

[John 1:1]

Turn the other cheek also means that you must turn away from the negative and towards the positive, that to let yourself be consumed with either with your thoughts, that is what you will bring forth.  I stand by what I said, I turn the other direction, towards those that apprieciate me, I do not turn towards collecting and creating enemies. 

Jesus was beyond cool with being able to condense an already condensed word, he brings home the point, it very much is living.

Peace, Brian

[seekr]

I do not agree. Jesus didn't look for those that pleased others, but the rejects. He had a way of finding those deemed negative (Zaccheus comes to mind) and changed their lives. Zaccheus was a man who people hated as he collected taxes and cheated. We need to see with the eyes and heart of God. When we are His that is how He uses us. And you still said that you would now be like the world in your business practices and yet read the title of this post. I have had great loss because of not being treated fairly and helping others to the point of not having for myself. And only because God asked it of me and I trust Him enough to allow it to happen. Reread those verses. If this is how we treat enemies how much more should we treat a brother or a sister?

[John 1:1]

If someone calls themselves a deciple of Christ, yet does wrong to you, then what do you call them, friend, or foe?  If you call them friend, do you not correct them in their transgressions?  If you call them enemy, what does that make you, an enemy of a deciple? There are those that are entirely there to do you harm, many of those I have been able to turn around through kindness and mercy, yet if they remain brasen and clearly are never going to change their ways, my efforts are in vain and I am no longer obligated to accept their transgression.  If someone were to say to you to walk into the furnace because they don't like what you believe, do you do so, or do you resist?

I'm curious, what's your religious denomination?

[seekr]

How many times do I forgive my brother? The problem is we ALL do things wrong to one another. We all err and have a God who gave us great grace because of it. There are those who do call themselves a christian and yet they are an enemy of the cross. Is it my place to change someone? God just puts me in places to help and to show love to the ones who are hardest to love and it ain't easy. It is just God. And it is God who does the changing in people. Scripture says He grows us.

I do not have a denomination. I am not a church-goer. God called me out of the system to follow Him and to serve others and to reach people who are wounded or thrown away. Hate labels. Just a child of God who loves to rescue the perishing.

[John 1:1]

How many times, it's infinate when it comes  down to it, yet, this is reference to a brother, not an outsider.  It's good to work for the service of others, in that regard, we very much do have this in common and a great big pat on the back for that one.  Here is something that may prove helpful in your endeavor, it essentially shows people new to this to not worry about being all knowing prior to them being good enough to call themselves Christians.

Mark 10:13
People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them.  When Jesus saw this, he was indignant.  He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.  I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it " And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

I was actually insulted by a guy on this board earlier today saying my faith was child like, he didn't realize, he was paying me a compliment.  I like how this makes it all simple, this helps overcome the barriers and basically sais, keep it simple, both in your mind and in your heart, that's all is necessary to enter the kingdom of God.  I think there is great comfort showing those new to this that passage, it puts their mind at ease, that it's not necessary for them to do these tremendous works, or to have the bible memorized, that their task at hand is a very small one to change within themselves.  The rest naturally falls into place after the fact as you grow, but it's a neat starting point here.

[seekr]

I am not talking about someone being good enough to call themselves christian. In fact  the ones that are usually in trouble are usually the ones God loves most. The people who claim Him and are arrogant and in charge of everybody else's sin are the ones I am talking about...and then not even all of them. No I like the messes, since I am one also. It is only about love.

I have used this illustration with my spouse that we have this darkness and confusion all around us and God shines this tiny spotlight for us to find our way. It really feels like that. God does give us some answers and tells us where to go a lot of times but then when there is silent and just that light we just take small steps at a time until we are where He wants us. It is truly a magnificent place to be but a very, hard place. We have lots of the miraculous, but a million hardships. I could make lists like Paul did. No snakes or shipwrecks but eons of everything falling apart and danger and some hunger and some persecution. Part of the territory when walking in His steps.

[John 1:1]

The least likely are always the first chosen, God indeed does love the underdog.  The ones in charge, those are the ones that are being held more into account as to their actions, this is where I've faced diversion in the business world.  Because they place the blame for their own problems on my back, knowing full well, I am not this huge, ruthless corporate entity, I literally am David and I face Goliath all day long much of the time.  I also face plenty of tribulation, have been tested over and over again to no end, it goes with the territory and comes to be expected, for the world hates those that pick up their cross daily.

The main frustration is, you begin dealing with someone who calls you brother, you end up with someone who calls you enemy, their latter actions shine through to show their true nature.  For what I do and having this great big heart, for me to remain powerless would mean the others I can help will no longer be getting it, that by tearing apart at my freedoms, they are preventing a whole slew of good things from happening.  They don't realize how much damage they are causing by working against me, I delight in helping others, they delight in being selfish, their fruits are owning material possions, mine are to store my treasure in heaven.  I honestly do get a kick out of being able to help people that are the absolute worse case scenereo's and watching them turn their lives around, it gives me a great deal of satisfaction for that alone regardless of the reward, since I am really not looking for the latter, it's enough to know I made a difference in their lives and that they are now more in line with God and what he indends for us.

If you look at what happened to Job, in the end, he came out I believe 10 fold richer then he started out with.  This means to me that if we can remain stead fast with our faith in spite of adversity, that we will overcome it all in this life and be rewarded should God deep it necessary.  This basically is telling me that adversity once overcome will deliver it's own reward in the here and now, much less, in the hereafter.

[seekr]

If you look at what happened to Job, in the end, he came out I believe 10 fold richer then he started out with.  This means to me that if we can remain stead fast with our faith in spite of adversity, that we will overcome it all in this life and be rewarded should God deep it necessary.  This basically is telling me that adversity once overcome will deliver it's own reward in the here and now, much less, in the hereafter.

I am understanding you better now. I think we have a lot in common. God has revealed some of the outcome to me for my life. It has been a very hard struggles for years, but longsuffering means just that...long suffering. I do know God's promises for my life but I also know that in Hebrews 11 it says some were commended for their faith and yet not all of them received their promise, here. They had a greater resurrection. Sometimes I look at my life and all those things I thought were SO important definitely become dim. I still know God will get me through and He says He gave us everything to enjoy. It is funny you brought up Job because God has always used that illustration in my life. Years ago He told me we would be like Job and I foolishly thought I had already suffered enough and was getting my tenfold. That is when things changed for the worse, at least in material and health matters but I know the promised healing that will come.

[John 1:1]

It's kind of a double edge sword, on one sice, you aren't able to be as effective in your tasks to do his will, your health and financial matters are holding you back, on the other side, you are going to be able to draw back on the struggles and share what you learned with others to help them get through theirs.  I feel we continue to face tribulation because we simply haven't learned something from it, that once that lesson is taught, we can move away from it and towards his blessings.

If I were to require counseling and had a choice between two people of equal knowledge, one was taught in school, the other one through experience, I will always pick the one with experience, as in experiencing the same things I went through.  The one that has the scholastic knowledge cannot possibly empathise, they can try, but never any where near the one that has gone through what I have.  So, looking at it that way, you are simply being honed to be that much more effective, but it's entirely up to you to decide if what you are going through right now is necessary or not, and if it's not, then choose to be blessed instead.  It's all your choice in the matter, we aren't Job, the devil is not placing a wager with God on us.

This is not to say testing is forever over, it just will change it's form, in my case, where I have a working business, the latests tests are dealing with the secular world, if I were to adopt the worlds tactics, believe me, there would be nobody left to compete with, I just prefer to be able to sleep at night.  The underlying theme I deal with, the root of it all, is the love of money, they simply adore it, they live for it, it rules their lives, and the more they can get the better and they don't care who's backs they have to walk on.  My own brother is a prime example of this.  He's very well off, he has luxuries I can only dream of, he simply owns so much and I see him squander it on stuff he cares little to nothing about.  If you are to ask him for any kind of emotional support, you quickly realize, this is the last person to go to in this area, don't even talk about financial on any level, he is very stingy with his money regardless of the fact you are willing to work for it and he clearly has much that could be done, even a simple 25.00 loan I asked of him on a 24 hour basis was a huge mistake, I was berrated to no end, I look back and realize, it wasn't worth it, not by a long shot.  He even had the odacity to become a direct competitor because he saw that I was making a go at what I was doing and he figured, there's money to be made, who cares if he's taking it from me as a competitor.  He's lost, has barely any belief in the existance of God, has no respect for the bible, or Jesus for that matter and there is no getting through to him, believe me, I've tried, so after his last tantrum, where his words were harsher then you would want to use on your worse enemy, I finally stopped turning the other cheek and stopped talking to him all together, knowing I cannot get through to  him and he will never change his hardened heart.

This is what I face now, these types of individuals, and again, if I were to counter on a worldly level, they wouldn't know what hit them.  It's not to say, I don't seek out and help those less fortunate then myself, never get me wrong there, just saying, these that are simply in love with their money will never be saved, so what's the point in trying to save them, they made their choice, their god is money and nothing more.

[seekr]

See the thing with your brother is different. It is the arrogant that Jesus rebuked. It is worse if a person claims to be a christian and has that attitude. I know lots of thieving, greedy pastors. It will be worse for them than the unbeliever. The rich really will have many sorrows if they remain greedy and do not share with others, which is what determines if we have passed from death to life.

I feel we continue to face tribulation because we simply haven't learned something from it, that once that lesson is taught, we can move away from it and towards his blessings.

Now I do not believe that at all. Look at Paul. He constantly had struggles, not because he needed a lesson learned but that it was to keep him humble because of his many revelations. Much is required for those who are given much. We also have an enemy bent on our destruction and we do not fight against flesh and blood but principalities and rulers of darkness. I always ponder what happened with Daniel when he prayed to God and God was not able to answer him right away. 12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

There is so much we do not understand about the unseen. I have been shown much but there is always so much more and our wisdom is so finite. I cannot grasp a lot of it but know if I am wrestling with something or pondering something there is a reason for it.

[John 1:1]

Well, there are lessons you learn, and have to relearn since you forgot them, that is why things kept happening to Paul, he didn't learn so had to relearn, if he'd reach the point where he could handle these revelations and not let them exault his ego, then he wouldn't have to go through them again, but he didn't it's because even though he was in a high position, where he should know better, he still stumbled just as we do. 

I think of it this way, when you are feeling pain, so does God right along with you, that to choose a way of life that's against him, hurts him, this is why he gets angered with people's that worship false gods in his place, it breaks his heart.  We do need correction from time to time when our ego's get out of control, but if we keep them in check, correction will not be necessary.  People like my brother, he's simply written off, otherwise he'd have to face the same as you and I.  Look to Job, where he points out the wicked flourishing yet the rightous are oppressed, where is the reasoning behind this one?  It's due to the fact, the wicked were written off, no point in beating a dead horse, that once their time is done on this earth, it's over with forever, and he even uses them from time to time to do his will in spite of themselves, and no, they don't get credit for their actions, they were prompted.

Once in a while I'll face those that are in direct opposition to God, eventually I reach the point where I think, you have written off God, God will write you off.  It's not to say he might find another purpose for them and go out of his way to get them to comply, but he never gets to the point where he's controlling his followers, that we all most choose to pick up the cross, that it's not lashed onto us, that would make faith in him pointless, since it's not real, it's forced.

I feel the only other time we face adversity that he allows to happen is to test us, yet I feel the bulk of what we face, we cause ourselves and it's our own flawed thinking that is making it happen.  This is where you gotta look into your heart and be true to it, that if you aren't, you are kidding yourself, ie. to thyn own self be true, or what a man thinketh in his heart, that is what is, and everything he sais about faith in him is true and literal.  You ask of your father for your blessings, you believe he will give them to you, and you then receive them because you did the former.  That is the underlying principal of thinking of him as a providor, we simply need to let him provide for us, it is us that prevents this from happening because our focus is upon what we don't have, when it should be upon what we could have if we only asked him and let him bring them to us. 

There are of course exceptions, such as if you ask something that will do harm to your being for having.  Power is a good one, I find most people can't handle it, that it always goes to their heads and they misuse it, it doesn't matter if it's managing a store, running a business, or being in charge of a committie, and when they get into those positions, they are torn apart, such as those greedy pastors that are playing the system, they groped to power, put themselves in charge of their congregation, exploited them and in general, turned into very bad people.  You gotta see what some of these business owners that I deal with do to their employees and suppliers, it's horrendus.  Luckily with the latter example, they tend not to stay in business that long and there have been many times where I could practically set a date on the callender as to the day they shut their doors.  It's because of the same patterns I see on a regular basis, and I step back thinking, ok, here we go yet again, and believe me, I do point out where they are headed and this is from the collective experience from past experiences, with myself and with my cleints.  To them it's all new, to me, it's routine.

With these concepts, in particular on the blessings, I see too many people trapped in their own thinking, these are not beginning concepts, they are advanced ones.  Perhaps, what I'm showing you is a little reward for what you have shown others, that the helper should get help from time to time as well and perhaps this is the reason for our dialog.  if it didn't work, or if I'm only talking theory, that would be one thing, but to have experienced this first hand, that is entirely something different, God want's to bless us, let him.

[zoonance]

There is no place for lying and cheating each other.  I wonder how church discipline would fit into this. 

[John 1:1]

I know what you are saying zoo, this is the frustrating part to me, it's like what has been taught all of a sudden goes out the window once they reach the business world.  I do think I face the worse of the bunch since I don't cater to consumers, I do strictly to business owners, so it's all b2b transactions.

My phylosophy has always been to focus on the actual business process, to build your company and don't fret over profit's, that it's enough to fine tune your operation, that the money will come in sooner or later and that element should not be your top priority for getting and being in business in the first place.  That you should have a passion for what you do, be grateful you are able to make a living at it, working for yourself in spite of all of the long hours and thankless toil.  The problem is, they are only looking for the money aspect and personally could care less about the heart of their operations.  I try to explain to them that it's necessary to set up a strong foundation in order to build their structure upon.  When I see them right off the bat setting up a weak one, ie. being ruthless as to their practices, I know their house will eventually fall.

I look to myself and what I do and always am trying to find better ways of doing things, ways of making things more innovative and ways to up the standards of quality, this is a constant given.  I also have had some really excellent clients that fully apprieciated my efforts, now if I was doing something inherently wrong, all of them would have issues, and in fact, the minority of them are the ones that cause problems, yet they stick out like a sore thumb knowing, no matter what I do, no matter how far I extend myself and how eloquently I word things, it is never good enough, they are simply looking for an excuse to pin the blame on someone, and since I'm just a one man show, they figure I will cave in to these unreasonable demands.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

There are a lot of people out there who only attend church to "network."

And quite a few businesses that advertise as "Christian" because of the breaks and networking available to "Christian businesses."

Personally, my rule is to look at their ad.  The bigger the flag they waive, the more likely something is wrong.  Look through your Christian directory, and choose the business that just looks like a business.  Chances are you found someone who's really a Christian, and not just using it as business leverage.

Cynical? ...maybe...but it seems to work.

[John 1:1]

There are a lot of people out there who only attend church to "network."

And quite a few businesses that advertise as "Christian" because of the breaks and networking available to "Christian businesses."

Personally, my rule is to look at their ad.  The bigger the flag they waive, the more likely something is wrong.  Look through your Christian directory, and choose the business that just looks like a business.  Chances are you found someone who's really a Christian, and not just using it as business leverage.

Cynical? ...maybe...but it seems to work.

You are correct, and those networking type's are being most effective, they have a captive client base, they can use the word to manipulate transactions to their favor, they can also use it to ruthlessly threaten anybody's position that is against them, i.e. getting them either booted from the church, or making them feel bad getting the others thinking they are not in line with God's plan since they didn't go through "x" reccomended company, due to the perks kicked back from x company to their own operation, or the church, or worse, getting them ostrasized from their peers that attend service.  We have too many parasites in the church like that, why they are accepted is beyond me, but it's showing clearly what the modern church is about.

[Joseph shall add]

      I know what you mean. I once designed a church for a group of people for 1200 dollars. The normal fee would have been 6000 to 8000. Then they wanted me to donate the 1200 dollars. Baptist LOL.

      I have never been attacked by anyone who did not claim to be a christian actually. And mostly men and woman claiming to be pastors and ministers. The bible tells us that not all are christians who claim to be and by there fruits you will know them. Never believe a christians is a christian unless you got fruit on the vine.

      When people claim to be people of faith, steal, con people, lie, are  coveness and slanders. They are as lost as a goose in a snow storm.

[xpressmyfaith]

Churches are operated by people and people are not perfect. When it comes down to business, usually our selfish nature takes over.

[fxbroker]

I spent the last 4 years digging and researching into the scripture how Christians
could be investing in the financial markets. I have posted a message here.


I don't want to duplicate the post - but check it out and comments are welcome
It is a simple concept for Christians to spread the Gospel and be rewarded, and let other people to sow unto them all based on the scripture.

First you start be simply telling 7 people to review the site. These people paid nothing
to do that and invite their own 7 friends if they love to spread our financial gospel materials.

They then review the various presentations of whether to be a Direct Partner or ordinary Bible College Promoter (referral) by paying a once off $25 and create their own Bible College link.

System component 1:

Bible College owners gets a reward of $15 as referral fees but I call it Prophets reward for helping us to promote our college and spread the Gospel. They are also randomly selected to
receive rewards from new entrants coming from our own promotional efforts.

System component 2:

Give it shall be given component suggest sponsors name to be blessed by new members with their first 7 rewards. This will suggest to a new members under network give up the rewards
7 times unto you or your church project. If they don't want to sow unto their sponsor now
big deal.

Not traditional MLM as such. But suggest sponsor's name like face- book to all people joining the network he or she started to donate or give up their first 7 fruits they earn as rewards from us.

I do not want to raise any false hope but a 7 x 7 matrix = gives a total of 823,543 rewards  or worth at  $15 to be sow each sponsor.  From the 8th gift, followers this to themselve and people start sowing unto them like they did to their sponsor.

The best is to review with the link provided and find a link under my profile name.
I think I do not have enough credits yet to show link or signature.


Component of the system is designed based on the scripture and to honour God.