How do you understand John 1:12-13

[Terrence]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

[david johnson]

it's like no matter how much you 'will' something you cannot make God do it.  you come to Him on His terms.  we don't create the 'right' to become God's, He did that.

dj

[johntwayne]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

God made the first choice in making salvation available to all men.  Man then chooses to accept or to reject that salvation.

In the passage you cite salvation is reserved to those who "receive Him."

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

[Jimmy]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

The "how" is not a unilateral action on God's part.  That is readily apparent even from this passage.  God is the author, but it does not happen apart from conscience decisions and actions on the part of the one who would be born again.  It is not coercive on the part of God nor is it passive on the part of the believer.  It is/was availble even to those who did not receive him, who did not believe.  The right to become children of God was not given to those who did not receive, who did not believe in his name.  It was not given due to their decisions not to receive and not to believe.

[phoebe]

I think you said it yourself: First received (accepted) him, then believed him, then become children of God.

We tend to read Scripture through human eyes, what we see and what we know. First, conception and birth happen at two different times. So it is with our relationship with God. The relationship is conceived before the [spiritual] birth takes place. Even with a physical birth, some things are known and accepted before the actual birth takes place.

The first choice made was God's, when He planned to send us a Savior. The second choice is that we accept and believe him. The result of salvation is not a third choice, but the result of a promise. the "right", as it is referred in this verse. Yes, He wishes for all to be saved, but not all will choose Him.

BTW, this passage does not say "born again". It simply says "born".

[Terrence]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

The "how" is not a unilateral action on God's part.  That is readily apparent even from this passage.  God is the author, but it does not happen apart from conscience decisions and actions on the part of the one who would be born again.  It is not coercive on the part of God nor is it passive on the part of the believer.  It is/was availble even to those who did not receive him, who did not believe.  The right to become children of God was not given to those who did not receive, who did not believe in his name.  It was not given due to their decisions not to receive and not to believe.

That makes sense to me, Jimmy. However, tell me if this makes sense to you:

All those who received Jesus and believed in His name were given the right to be called the children of God. We both agree there. However, I see that those who 1.) received Jesus and 2.) believed in His name, did so because they were "born again by the will and/or decision of God" (as the end of the verse says). Do you see that?

"they were born not of flesh, nor of the 'will' of man...but of God."

Do you see that?

[Terrence]

I think you said it yourself: First received (accepted) him, then believed him, then become children of God.

We tend to read Scripture through human eyes, what we see and what we know. First, conception and birth happen at two different times. So it is with our relationship with God. The relationship is conceived before the [spiritual] birth takes place. Even with a physical birth, some things are known and accepted before the actual birth takes place.

The first choice made was God's, when He planned to send us a Savior. The second choice is that we accept and believe him. The result of salvation is not a third choice, but the result of a promise. the "right", as it is referred in this verse. Yes, He wishes for all to be saved, but not all will choose Him.

BTW, this passage does not say "born again". It simply says "born".

Please consider all the scripture I give.

Born of God means to be born again (1 Jn 3:9). Also, look at the text carefully. Why did some "receive" and "believe" upon Jesus? Was it the will of the flesh? The verse says no. In fact, Jn 6:66 says "the flesh profits nothing" (Jn 6:63), because NOTHING good dwells in the flesh (Rom7:18). Was it then the will or decision of man? The text says not. So what was it that cased men to receive and believe in Jesus? Note the inspired word of God..."they were born by the decision of God." 

[Jimmy]

Back up a couple of verses,

10  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him.  But those who did receive him were born again.  I really don't understand how you can logically turn the order around.  The process, it seems to me, throughout the NT teaching is to hear, to believe, to respond, to be saved, to live.  The role of the Holy Spirit, though not limited to just the word, is nevertheless presented mostly as the word.  That is why Paul says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word.

[Harold]

I agree with Phoebe and Jimmy, let's take a quick look.

Joh 1:12  Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now here in verse 12 we get the criteria for what is to be accomplished in verse 13.

Those that have received, a finished process, those that believe, also a finished process. Once these two are completed then, and only then, do they have the right to become the children of God.

Joh 1:13  children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (NIV)

Now let's listen to what the Word says next. Not born in the natural way, by the desire of a man to have a child, or because a husband has gone to his wife to produce a child. The child in both cases has no choice in the birthing process. But because of God's desire to have children He provided a way. His Son Jesus Christ. All who believe and receive Jesus Christ are born, not of the flesh, but are born of God, Born again of the Spirit.

FTL

[Terrence]

Back up a couple of verses,

10  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him.  But those who did receive him were born again.  I really don't understand how you can logically turn the order around.  The process, it seems to me, throughout the NT teaching is to hear, to believe, to respond, to be saved, to live.  The role of the Holy Spirit, though not limited to just the word, is nevertheless presented mostly as the word.  That is why Paul says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word.

Jimmy -

Let me first say that I agree with you that "faith comes by hearing the word of God" and that "we must hear, believe, and then respond." I agree with this very much. I'm only asking you this:

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

Even though we must 1.) hear 2.) believe and 3.) respond, there is still something that comes first A: God. God must grant us faith (Phi 1:29).

Notice what comes first:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Before faith can be practiced and used, it must be granted (Phi 1:29).

[phoebe]

First, I do not believe it is correct to exchange "born" with "born again", Terrence, as you are freely doing here. I am looking at 1 John 3:9 that you ref.:

"Whoever has become a child of God does not keep sinning, because God's seed stays in them. They cannot keep on sinning, because they have become a child of God."

No "born again" there.

Second, I believe we are all granted the opportunity to have faith. I believe that when Scripture makes references to "the called", etc., that it is not an exclusive calling. We have been granted the opportunity to believe Him, to accept Him, and to be saved. I believe He calls everyone to Him, at some point in time, in one way or another. Perhaps in ways we don't see or expect, not in traditional ways of hearing the Good News, perhaps in opportunities of recognizing that there is a God, One God, and perhaps the opportunity to choose doing right over doing wrong, a calling from His Spirit directly to a human spirit–skipping the middle-man (aka evangelist/preacher), but I believe He does give everyone the opportunity to choose.

Not everyone chooses Him.

[Jimmy]

Back up a couple of verses,

10  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him.  But those who did receive him were born again.  I really don't understand how you can logically turn the order around.  The process, it seems to me, throughout the NT teaching is to hear, to believe, to respond, to be saved, to live.  The role of the Holy Spirit, though not limited to just the word, is nevertheless presented mostly as the word.  That is why Paul says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word.

Jimmy -

Let me first say that I agree with you that "faith comes by hearing the word of God" and that "we must hear, believe, and then respond." I agree with this very much. I'm only asking you this:

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

Even though we must 1.) hear 2.) believe and 3.) respond, there is still something that comes first A: God. God must grant us faith (Phi 1:29).

Notice what comes first:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Before faith can be practiced and used, it must be granted (Phi 1:29).

Terrence, I do believe that the difference we are seeing here is not so much the meaning of the passages themselves, although that certainly is the case, as it is the direction from which we each approach the verses.  You approach these verses from the position of total depravity.  As such you will single out those verses with seem to you to support that view and tend to ignore, overlook or at least minimize consideration of other scriptures that deal with the same subject.  Given your position on Total depravity, you are forced to find a solution around the problem that it presents.

I reject the teaching of total depravity.  Thus I am not bound to find a way around the problem presented by the teaching of total depravity concerning one responding to God's call.  That does not mean that I reject the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of one answering God's call.  But that also means that I do not reject the individual's ability to hear and respond, including the decision to believe; specifically the transition from unbelief to belief or faith if you prefer.

Scripture presents this as something the sinner must do to prepare himself for receiving the gift of salvation.  "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mar 16:16)   John says that he wrote his Gospel "but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31 ).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved" (Act 16:31).     "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom 10:9).    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)

All of these and many more (e.g., see Romans 3:28: Gal 2:16, 3:26) speaks to the sinner making a decision about his condition.  I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lives to help each one to come to the decision to believe, to repent and to turn, to answer the call.  I just see it different than you do through your eyes of total depravity.

There is no lack of Scripture that loudly shouts to the Bible's teaching that the power of the Word of God to move us to faith and repentance.  That is seen in both the old and new testaments.  The Holy Spirit is obviously the motive power with the Word being the primary tool of the Holy Spirit to move us.   Even the word of the preacher is a secondary tool along with the Word of God to move men to believe repent and turn.  James 5:20 says, " let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

You ask,

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man.

You quoted Acts 13:48,

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Then you dismiss the part that says "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord", and conclude, apparently, that there were some there who heard, rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord that were not appointed to eternal life and did not therefore believe.  Again you are interpreting through the eyes of the doctrine of total depravity.

That is unfortunate because so long as you hold that view and I reject that view there will be passages of Scripture that mean one thing to me and something else entirely to you.  It is also unfortunate I guess that each of us carries a load baggage as we board the plane of interpretation. Strange as it may seem, very often it is the baggage that determines where the plane flies and where it lands.

[Terrence]

First, I do not believe it is correct to exchange "born" with "born again", Terrence, as you are freely doing here. I am looking at 1 John 3:9 that you ref.:

"Whoever has become a child of God does not keep sinning, because God's seed stays in them. They cannot keep on sinning, because they have become a child of God."

No "born again" there.

Second, I believe we are all granted the opportunity to have faith. I believe that when Scripture makes references to "the called", etc., that it is not an exclusive calling. We have been granted the opportunity to believe Him, to accept Him, and to be saved. I believe He calls everyone to Him, at some point in time, in one way or another. Perhaps in ways we don't see or expect, not in traditional ways of hearing the Good News, perhaps in opportunities of recognizing that there is a God, One God, and perhaps the opportunity to choose doing right over doing wrong, a calling from His Spirit directly to a human spirit–skipping the middle-man (aka evangelist/preacher), but I believe He does give everyone the opportunity to choose.

Not everyone chooses Him.

Here's an easy way to find out if "born of God" and "born again" are synonyms:

We know that "One born of God cannot live in habitual sin" (1 Jn 3:9).

Can the who who is "born again" live in habitual sin?

[Terrence]

Back up a couple of verses,

10  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him.  But those who did receive him were born again.  I really don't understand how you can logically turn the order around.  The process, it seems to me, throughout the NT teaching is to hear, to believe, to respond, to be saved, to live.  The role of the Holy Spirit, though not limited to just the word, is nevertheless presented mostly as the word.  That is why Paul says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word.

Jimmy -

Let me first say that I agree with you that "faith comes by hearing the word of God" and that "we must hear, believe, and then respond." I agree with this very much. I'm only asking you this:

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

Even though we must 1.) hear 2.) believe and 3.) respond, there is still something that comes first A: God. God must grant us faith (Phi 1:29).

Notice what comes first:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Before faith can be practiced and used, it must be granted (Phi 1:29).

Terrence, I do believe that the difference we are seeing here is not so much the meaning of the passages themselves, although that certainly is the case, as it is the direction from which we each approach the verses.  You approach these verses from the position of total depravity.  As such you will single out those verses with seem to you to support that view and tend to ignore, overlook or at least minimize consideration of other scriptures that deal with the same subject.  Given your position on Total depravity, you are forced to find a solution around the problem that it presents.

I reject the teaching of total depravity.  Thus I am not bound to find a way around the problem presented by the teaching of total depravity concerning one responding to God's call.  That does not mean that I reject the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of one answering God's call.  But that also means that I do not reject the individual's ability to hear and respond, including the decision to believe; specifically the transition from unbelief to belief or faith if you prefer.

Scripture presents this as something the sinner must do to prepare himself for receiving the gift of salvation.  "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mar 16:16)   John says that he wrote his Gospel "but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31 ).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved" (Act 16:31).     "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom 10:9).    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)

All of these and many more (e.g., see Romans 3:28: Gal 2:16, 3:26) speaks to the sinner making a decision about his condition.  I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lives to help each one to come to the decision to believe, to repent and to turn, to answer the call.  I just see it different than you do through your eyes of total depravity.

There is no lack of Scripture that loudly shouts to the Bible's teaching that the power of the Word of God to move us to faith and repentance.  That is seen in both the old and new testaments.  The Holy Spirit is obviously the motive power with the Word being the primary tool of the Holy Spirit to move us.   Even the word of the preacher is a secondary tool along with the Word of God to move men to believe repent and turn.  James 5:20 says, " let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

You ask,

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man.

You quoted Acts 13:48,

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Then you dismiss the part that says "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord", and conclude, apparently, that there were some there who heard, rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord that were not appointed to eternal life and did not therefore believe.  Again you are interpreting through the eyes of the doctrine of total depravity.

That is unfortunate because so long as you hold that view and I reject that view there will be passages of Scripture that mean one thing to me and something else entirely to you.  It is also unfortunate I guess that each of us carries a load baggage as we board the plane of interpretation. Strange as it may seem, very often it is the baggage that determines where the plane flies and where it lands.

Wow! Jimmy, you said a lot of good things in this response. To be honest, I'm not yet willing to respond to everything you said, because I don't want to go off trail. I want to only stick with John 1:12-13 (I will get to total depravity later). Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses!

[Jimmy]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

[Harold]

Now this is really simple.

I own a pizza place: I give out cards that can be redeemed for a free pizza.

You get one of the cards, and either choose to get a free pizza, or not to receive a free pizza.

If you bring the card to my pizza place you will get a free pizza.

Now, was it by your will that I offered the free pizza, or was it my will to offer a free pizza.

God offers salvation to all who believe On Jesus Christ, it is by His will we are born again not ours, we come to the cross to get our new life. The Gift God has chosen to give.

FTL

[Terrence]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

[Charles Sloan]

I hate how theses analogies have no place for sin, judgement or repentance.

Like the the Gospel is just a commodity.

Do you feel that every analogy needs a five point salvation plan attached, they are to make a simple point. But I will watch for your use of analogies in the future.

FTL

Sorry I deleted my post cause I didn't want to get into it.

But feel free to watch, and pm mods or flag whatever you like in my posts.

[Jimmy]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

All of that is in complete harmony of Paul's words in Colossians,

4  I say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive argument.
5  For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6  As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7  having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9  For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10  and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11  and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13  And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14  having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[Harold]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

[Terrence]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

All of that is in complete harmony of Paul's words in Colossians,

4  I say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive argument.
5  For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6  As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7  having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9  For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10  and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11  and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13  And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14  having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I don't disagree with you. I'm only asking this: By who's will and or decision did those who receive and believe in Jesus do so? What does the text say?

[Terrence]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

[Harold]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

Now we are changing the sequence of events. It is God's will that all come to repentance, and salvation. But they cannot receive the free gift unless they have met the criteria set down in verse 12.

As I stated I give away the free pizza, you must choose to come and get it. You hear the message I am giving away free pizza, and you must choose to come get it. My will to give it away your choice to receive it.

FTL

[Jimmy]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

Terrence, back up one verse.

64  "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

[phoebe]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

[Harold]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

My sister, 

FTL

[Terrence]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

Now we are changing the sequence of events. It is God's will that all come to repentance, and salvation. But they cannot receive the free gift unless they have met the criteria set down in verse 12.

As I stated I give away the free pizza, you must choose to come and get it. You hear the message I am giving away free pizza, and you must choose to come get it. My will to give it away your choice to receive it.

FTL

Lets do this: Lets leave our preconceived ideas aside and just let the scriptures speak. You presuppose that man chooses to believe and since God knows who will believe, he saves that person. That's a good presupposition to have, I think. I used to believe it. Still, tell me if I'm wrong here - and remember we're letting the scriptures speak for itself with no help from what we think it means - no man can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants that man faith to believe in Jesus (Jn 6:65). Again, no one can believe unless the Father grants it. In fact, No one can even know God unless God himself reveals himself (Luke 10:22).

Now, the text being discussed now is John 1:12-13. Let's break it apart.

Verse 12..."to all those who did receive him, who believed in his name"
Verse 13..."were not born again by man's decision, but by God."

Remember, we're leaving our presupposition at the door here. Don't put your own thoughts on what you think it means, just read the scriptures I'm placing and consider the contexts. Here's what we have all from John's Gospel:

1. No one can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants Him (Jn 6:65).
2. All who is granted and/or drawn of the Father come to Jesus and is saved (Jn 6:44).
3. All who are granted and/or drawn by the Father believe and receive Jesus (Jn 1:12).
4. All who receive Jesus do so because it was God's choice to make them born again (Jn 1:23).

Please be honest with me here. If you were to just look at these scriptures without reading it in light of your own understanding, would it be saying the same thing as I'm saying they say?

[Terrence]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

Terrence, back up one verse.

64  "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Yes, I agree with you Jimmy. Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe. He even said why the reason is:

"You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (Jn 10:26).

PLEASE note that the Lord did NOT say, "you are not my sheep because you didn't believe." Jesus knows who does not believe because not all are his sheep. In fact, His sheep believe and follow him (John 10:27). Please look at the scriptures I'm writing to you guys. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm only asking that you look at what I'm saying without having your presupposition dictate what you feel the scriptures are saying. In other words, let the text speak for themselves.

All that said Jimmy, notice Jesus' words: "NO ONE can come to me unless the Father grants it."

How many people of the "no one" comes to Jesus in faith without the Father drawing them? And if no one can come without the Father drawing them, why do you insist that man in and of his own freewill choices Jesus? I'm being honest when I say this: Man always choices that which is consist to his nature. In the same way a pig will choose slop over a candy bar, humans always choose sin over holiness. No man chooses to seek God. In fact, "NONE seek God" (Rom 3:11) because they don't want Him. In the same way a Holy God hates sin, sinful man hates a Holy God.

The only reason why some choose, I strongly believe, is because God changed their natures from that of a sin loving and God hating person, to a God loving and sin loving person, thereby making them a new creations in Christ. Its all by God's grace. He grants the channel whereby man will be saved - namely faith (Phi 1:29). He changes the nature (Ezk 36:26-27), he gives eyes to see (Jn 3:3), he gives a heart to love, he gives us the desire and ability to work out our salvation (Phi 2:12-13), he gives the increase when people shares the gospel with us, thereby causing us to believe, he opens our hearts to understand the gospel (Acts 16:14), He made us alive when we were dead in sins (Eph 2:4); He even choose us before we were born and destined who would be the recipient of his free and sovereign mercy (Rom 9:15). Our salvation is ALL of God's grace; we get credit for NOTHING. He even saved us for this reason, that He might get all the glory:

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another." -- Isa 48:11

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." -- 1 John 2:12

God is the only being that is truly free to do whatever he wants. If He takes one God hating sinner and changes his nature so that the sinner now loves Christ, that is an amazing display of God's grace; especially considering that God hates evil doers like us (Psa 5:5). Now, if God were to leave another God hating sinner in his own freewill choice to not come to Christ, why be angry at God? He didn't force another to not come and believe, he only left him in His own choice. We who are saved should not, indeed we cannot, even begin to be proud as if we were better than any other sinner. It is only God's grace we believe. As the old hymn goes:

"I once was blind but now I see." Truly, knowing my own sins, God's grace is amazing!

[Terrence]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Hi phoebe!

I'm familiar with the text used to disprove God's sovereign election. 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4 are two of the "big" ones. Before I can even comment with any amount of insensibility, I want to ask you a question. Are you familiar with Hermeneutics and Biblical exegesis?

[phoebe]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Hi phoebe!

I'm familiar with the text used to disprove God's sovereign election. 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4 are two of the "big" ones. Before I can even comment with any amount of insensibility, I want to ask you a question. Are you familiar with Hermeneutics and Biblical exegesis?

Trying to suck me in with your cheerful ways, are you now. A warm, friendly greeting. A simple question to engage me in conversation.

Go ahead. Enlighten me. If you think you can.

[Jimmy]

Lets do this: Lets leave our preconceived ideas aside and just let the scriptures speak. You presuppose that man chooses to believe and since God knows who will believe, he saves that person. That's a good presupposition to have, I think. I used to believe it. Still, tell me if I'm wrong here - and remember we're letting the scriptures speak for itself with no help from what we think it means - no man can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants that man faith to believe in Jesus (Jn 6:65). Again, no one can believe unless the Father grants it. In fact, No one can even know God unless God himself reveals himself (Luke 10:22).

Now, the text being discussed now is John 1:12-13. Let's break it apart.

Verse 12..."to all those who did receive him, who believed in his name"
Verse 13..."were not born again by man's decision, but by God."

Remember, we're leaving our presupposition at the door here. Don't put your own thoughts on what you think it means, just read the scriptures I'm placing and consider the contexts. Here's what we have all from John's Gospel:

1. No one can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants Him (Jn 6:65).
2. All who is granted and/or drawn of the Father come to Jesus and is saved (Jn 6:44).
3. All who are granted and/or drawn by the Father believe and receive Jesus (Jn 1:12).
4. All who receive Jesus do so because it was God's choice to make them born again (Jn 1:23).

Please be honest with me here. If you were to just look at these scriptures without reading it in light of your own understanding, would it be saying the same thing as I'm saying they say?

And of course let's leave the rest of the scriptures at the door while we just look at the one or two scriptures that you have cherry picked which all by themselves seem to say what you want them to say.

Are you familiar with Hermeneutics and Biblical exegesis?  

It is quite apparent that you are not.  Neither Hermeneutics nor Biblical exegesis seeks to interpret one or two verses apart from the rest of the Bible.  I think we all know that using just the approach you are suggesting here that I can prove just about anything from the Bible if you let me choose the verses.

Terrence, You don't really expect anyone to play that game with you do you?

[Terrence]

Lets do this: Lets leave our preconceived ideas aside and just let the scriptures speak. You presuppose that man chooses to believe and since God knows who will believe, he saves that person. That's a good presupposition to have, I think. I used to believe it. Still, tell me if I'm wrong here - and remember we're letting the scriptures speak for itself with no help from what we think it means - no man can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants that man faith to believe in Jesus (Jn 6:65). Again, no one can believe unless the Father grants it. In fact, No one can even know God unless God himself reveals himself (Luke 10:22).

Now, the text being discussed now is John 1:12-13. Let's break it apart.

Verse 12..."to all those who did receive him, who believed in his name"
Verse 13..."were not born again by man's decision, but by God."

Remember, we're leaving our presupposition at the door here. Don't put your own thoughts on what you think it means, just read the scriptures I'm placing and consider the contexts. Here's what we have all from John's Gospel:

1. No one can come to Jesus in faith unless the Father grants Him (Jn 6:65).
2. All who is granted and/or drawn of the Father come to Jesus and is saved (Jn 6:44).
3. All who are granted and/or drawn by the Father believe and receive Jesus (Jn 1:12).
4. All who receive Jesus do so because it was God's choice to make them born again (Jn 1:23).

Please be honest with me here. If you were to just look at these scriptures without reading it in light of your own understanding, would it be saying the same thing as I'm saying they say?

And of course let's leave the rest of the scriptures while we just let the one or two scriptures that you have cherry picked which all by themselves seem to say what you want them to say.

Are you familiar with Hermeneutics and Biblical exegesis? 

It is quite apparent that you are not.  Neither Hermeneutics nor Biblical exegesis seeks to interpret one or two verses apart from the rest of the Bible.  I think we all know that using just the approach you are suggesting here that I can prove just about anything from the Bible if you let me choose the verses.

You don't really expect anyone to play that silly game do you?

I certainly don't want anyone to play any game, only consider what I wrote. Do the verses, say what I'm saying they say? You said that I was "cherry -picking" verses and not looking at the whole of scripture. My actually aim is to get to the whole of scripture, but I just want to make sure each individual point in each individual scripture is made. That way I can better explain myself and you, whether you agree or not, can see exactly what I'm saying. With that being said:

Is not the mentioned text saying that those who receive Jesus and believe in his name do so because God chose them to believe? Please consider all the text I gave in context.

[spurly]

How do I understand John 1:12-13?  Why, the only correct way, of course.

[da525382]

Now I asked you if those who received Jesus and believe in Him were born again by their own will and/or choice. You said:

"It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man."

That didn't answer the question. Moreover, are you saying that it was by man's choice God created man? Thanks for your responses

That was very poorly stated by me.  What I meant to say was that when God created man in his own image, he granted man the free will/choice to make such decisions.  So it was by their own will/choice that they received Jesus and believed in Him. It was God who renewed them and gave to them a new birth based upon that choice.

I do consider the primary difference between God's creation of animals generally and God's creation of man is  the spirit which He breathed into man.  It is that spirit by which were are created in His image and that spirit by which He gives us the free will.

I agree with you that God gave man free will and that this in fact does separate us from animals (among other reasons), but is that what the verse says? How do you understand the latter part of the verse..."born NOT of the will of man nor flesh, but of God."

By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

Those who believed and received Jesus were born again by the will of God. They have met the criteria of verse 12.

You answer your own question.

FTL

Thanks for answering! Jesus once said no one can come to him in faith unless the Father grants him the ability to come (Jn 6:65). Now again..."By who's will and decision did those who believed and receive Jesus in faith, actually come to receive and believe in Jesus?

In other words, how did they come to have faith and receive Jesus?

Terrence, back up one verse.

64  "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Yes, I agree with you Jimmy. Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe. He even said why the reason is:

"You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (Jn 10:26).

PLEASE note that the Lord did NOT say, "you are not my sheep because you didn't believe." Jesus knows who does not believe because not all are his sheep. In fact, His sheep believe and follow him (John 10:27). Please look at the scriptures I'm writing to you guys. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, I'm only asking that you look at what I'm saying without having your presupposition dictate what you feel the scriptures are saying. In other words, let the text speak for themselves.

All that said Jimmy, notice Jesus' words: "NO ONE can come to me unless the Father grants it."

How many people of the "no one" comes to Jesus in faith without the Father drawing them? And if no one can come without the Father drawing them, why do you insist that man in and of his own freewill choices Jesus? I'm being honest when I say this: Man always choices that which is consist to his nature. In the same way a pig will choose slop over a candy bar, humans always choose sin over holiness. No man chooses to seek God. In fact, "NONE seek God" (Rom 3:11) because they don't want Him. In the same way a Holy God hates sin, sinful man hates a Holy God.

The only reason why some choose, I strongly believe, is because God changed their natures from that of a sin loving and God hating person, to a God loving and sin loving person, thereby making them a new creations in Christ. Its all by God's grace. He grants the channel whereby man will be saved - namely faith (Phi 1:29). He changes the nature (Ezk 36:26-27), he gives eyes to see (Jn 3:3), he gives a heart to love, he gives us the desire and ability to work out our salvation (Phi 2:12-13), he gives the increase when people shares the gospel with us, thereby causing us to believe, he opens our hearts to understand the gospel (Acts 16:14), He made us alive when we were dead in sins (Eph 2:4); He even choose us before we were born and destined who would be the recipient of his free and sovereign mercy (Rom 9:15). Our salvation is ALL of God's grace; we get credit for NOTHING. He even saved us for this reason, that He might get all the glory:

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another." -- Isa 48:11

"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." -- 1 John 2:12

God is the only being that is truly free to do whatever he wants. If He takes one God hating sinner and changes his nature so that the sinner now loves Christ, that is an amazing display of God's grace; especially considering that God hates evil doers like us (Psa 5:5). Now, if God were to leave another God hating sinner in his own freewill choice to not come to Christ, why be angry at God? He didn't force another to not come and believe, he only left him in His own choice. We who are saved should not, indeed we cannot, even begin to be proud as if we were better than any other sinner. It is only God's grace we believe. As the old hymn goes:

"I once was blind but now I see." Truly, knowing my own sins, God's grace is amazing!

Great post, Terrence....manna for you.

[da525382]

How do I understand John 1:12-13?  Why, the only correct way, of course.

Great!