How do you understand John 1:12-13

[Jimmy]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim.  

God turned them over to a reprobate mind?

But of course, what else is a gracious God going to do?  After all, once having created the man as a reprobate, mind and all, He couldn't just let it go to waste.

[Jimmy]

Terrence,

Reformed Theology or Calvinism;  I don't really see a lot of difference.  Of course there are several brands of reformed theology and I can't be sure which of them you advocate.  But again, I don't see a whole lot of difference in them fundamentally.

[Terrence]

Read John 6:44 and notice that the "all" who are drawn by God, come to Christ and are therefore saved. There's simply NO reason to believe that some of the all come and aren't saved. The text simply does not allow for that.

Yes it does allow for that.  It is you that will not allow for that with your grossly biased Calvinistic theology.

You continue to quote bits of scripture from here and there and then add Calvin to it.  It is that bias which drives its meaning for you.   So long as you park the theology of Calvin on top of the Word, it will never say to you what it really means and it will almost never mean what you think it says.

This is not Calvinism, but Bible. I'll use scripture to show you.

John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Notice somethings:

1. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them.
2. The "one" or the "him" that the Father draws come to Christ
3. The "him" that comes to Christ is raised on the last day.

Question: Can you show me from that scripture where one gets drawn from the Father and does not come to Christ?

[Terrence]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim. 

Bonnie, Phoebe, and Jimmy:

I see why you so despises Calvinism, and would not consider what I've been saying (even if I were to make sense scripturally). If what you wrote above is what you really believe that I'm saying, Jimmy, I can see why you're angry. Let me say that what you wrote is not what I believe. In short, here's what I believe:

God gives man creation to Know that God exist (Rom 1:20)
God gives man a conscience so that man can know he is guilty before God, and thus seek God (Rom 2:15)
God gives man a choice to "chooses this day whom he'd serve - sin or God."
However, with his freewill man chooses to "not seek God" (Rom 3:11, Psa 14:2-3). In fact, though God wants them to come because he finds no joy in destroying them; though he will, they just "will not come" (Matt 23:37).
Instead of coming, man suppress the truth in unrighteousness so that he can continue with his will being done and not God (Rom 1:18).
Since God already knew before that none would seek him (Psa 14:2-3), because they love darkness more than light (John 3:19); God before the foundation of the world choose a people whom He'd  be merciful to.
He predestined that these people, namely those whom he foreknew, would be given faith and then called by the gospel (2The 2:13-14).
God saved these people to display His amazing grace (Eph 1:6).
God left others in their freewill choice to not be saved, and so allowed them to continue in their sin that he might be praised to the glory of His justice and wrath (Rom 9:22-23, Proverbs 16:4).

In short, that's what I believe. It still may be different from you and you still may find it a little nutty, but I hope it at least makes some sense to you now.

[Terrence]

Terrence,

Reformed Theology or Calvinism;  I don't really see a lot of difference.  Of course there are several brands of reformed theology and I can't be sure which of them you advocate.  But again, I don't see a whole lot of difference in them fundamentally.

Hi again.

There's no difference. Reformed Theology is another name to describe Calvinism. I'm not sure what you meant about "other brands of reformed theology." I wasn't aware of any.

[Terrence]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

It is tough to make a stand on a interpretation from one or two verses. But I will try.

People who received Him and believed in Him (heard the gospel?), they became God's children. It obviously has nothing to do with mans physical being, including his own mind (insight)"not of blood nor of the will of the flesh".
After all of the above , It had to be God's doing. God's will?
Again, two verses?
Can you show any support for this? assuming (I believe) this is what you mean.
I cant deny (to my understanding) this is what these two verses mean, it is only obvious. But I have read many cults and false religions use this "one or two verse" thing and build a doctrine around it.

Whoa! It was so refreshing to read such an honest assessment! I know you don't agree, but it was SO GOOD to see a fair and honest and humble reply. Whoa! OK...yeah, sure...I can support my claim, from scripture, that "all those who believe do so because God made it happen." Consider 2 Thes 2:13-14.

Read how God "chose a people to believe" and then summoned or "called" them through the means by which they will believe, namely the gospel.

[Gillian]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

It is tough to make a stand on a interpretation from one or two verses. But I will try.

People who received Him and believed in Him (heard the gospel?), they became God's children. It obviously has nothing to do with mans physical being, including his own mind (insight)"not of blood nor of the will of the flesh".
After all of the above , It had to be God's doing. God's will?
Again, two verses?
Can you show any support for this? assuming (I believe) this is what you mean.
I cant deny (to my understanding) this is what these two verses mean, it is only obvious. But I have read many cults and false religions use this "one or two verse" thing and build a doctrine around it.

Whoa! It was so refreshing to read such an honest assessment! I know you don't agree, but it was SO GOOD to see a fair and honest and humble reply. Whoa! OK...yeah, sure...I can support my claim, from scripture, that "all those who believe do so because God made it happen." Consider 2 Thes 2:13-14.

Read how God "chose a people to believe" and then summoned or "called" them through the means by which they will believe, namely the gospel.

That was an easy one, certain verses or are quite clear especially those. . .To deny what these verses literally say would be lying to one's self.

[Bonnie]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim. 

Bonnie, Phoebe, and Jimmy:

I see why you so despises Calvinism, and would not consider what I've been saying (even if I were to make sense scripturally). If what you wrote above is what you really believe that I'm saying, Jimmy, I can see why you're angry. Let me say that what you wrote is not what I believe. In short, here's what I believe:

God gives man creation to Know that God exist (Rom 1:20)
God gives man a conscience so that man can know he is guilty before God, and thus seek God (Rom 2:15)
God gives man a choice to "chooses this day whom he'd serve - sin or God."
However, with his freewill man chooses to "not seek God" (Rom 3:11, Psa 14:2-3). In fact, though God wants them to come because he finds no joy in destroying them; though he will, they just "will not come" (Matt 23:37).
Instead of coming, man suppress the truth in unrighteousness so that he can continue with his will being done and not God (Rom 1:18).
Since God already knew before that none would seek him (Psa 14:2-3), because they love darkness more than light (John 3:19); God before the foundation of the world choose a people whom He'd  be merciful to.
He predestined that these people, namely those whom he foreknew, would be given faith and then called by the gospel (2The 2:13-14).
God saved these people to display His amazing grace (Eph 1:6).
God left others in their freewill choice to not be saved, and so allowed them to continue in their sin that he might be praised to the glory of His justice and wrath (Rom 9:22-23, Proverbs 16:4).

In short, that's what I believe. It still may be different from you and you still may find it a little nutty, but I hope it at least makes some sense to you now.

Yes, that is the way I see it.  God has some chosen vessels.

[Jimmy]

Terrence,

Reformed Theology or Calvinism;  I don't really see a lot of difference.  Of course there are several brands of reformed theology and I can't be sure which of them you advocate.  But again, I don't see a whole lot of difference in them fundamentally.

Hi again.

There's no difference. Reformed Theology is another name to describe Calvinism. I'm not sure what you meant about "other brands of reformed theology." I wasn't aware of any.

There is the Presbyterian Reformed Theology,  There is the Baptist Reformed Theology.  There are others as well.  There are the neo-Calvinists.  etc.  While I do not have indepth knowledge of all or even any of the variants, there do seem to be differences.

[Jimmy]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim. 

Bonnie, Phoebe, and Jimmy:

I see why you so despises Calvinism, and would not consider what I've been saying (even if I were to make sense scripturally). If what you wrote above is what you really believe that I'm saying, Jimmy, I can see why you're angry. Let me say that what you wrote is not what I believe. In short, here's what I believe:

God gives man creation to Know that God exist (Rom 1:20)
God gives man a conscience so that man can know he is guilty before God, and thus seek God (Rom 2:15)
God gives man a choice to "chooses this day whom he'd serve - sin or God."
However, with his freewill man chooses to "not seek God" (Rom 3:11, Psa 14:2-3). In fact, though God wants them to come because he finds no joy in destroying them; though he will, they just "will not come" (Matt 23:37).
Instead of coming, man suppress the truth in unrighteousness so that he can continue with his will being done and not God (Rom 1:18).
Since God already knew before that none would seek him (Psa 14:2-3), because they love darkness more than light (John 3:19); God before the foundation of the world choose a people whom He'd  be merciful to.
He predestined that these people, namely those whom he foreknew, would be given faith and then called by the gospel (2The 2:13-14).
God saved these people to display His amazing grace (Eph 1:6).
God left others in their freewill choice to not be saved, and so allowed them to continue in their sin that he might be praised to the glory of His justice and wrath (Rom 9:22-23, Proverbs 16:4).

In short, that's what I believe. It still may be different from you and you still may find it a little nutty, but I hope it at least makes some sense to you now.

There may be some subtle difference from the dipiction that I laid out above.  But it is subtle.  Your position still is that God chooses those who will be saved and those who will not be saved.  Free choice however you have defined it can have no influence one way or the other on that decision.  Thus by default, God has choosen in advance who He will condemn to hell.  That is unacceptable and loathsome.

[spurly]

Terrence,

Reformed Theology or Calvinism;  I don't really see a lot of difference.  Of course there are several brands of reformed theology and I can't be sure which of them you advocate.  But again, I don't see a whole lot of difference in them fundamentally.

Hi again.

There's no difference. Reformed Theology is another name to describe Calvinism. I'm not sure what you meant about "other brands of reformed theology." I wasn't aware of any.

There is the Presbyterian Reformed Theology,  There is the Baptist Reformed Theology.  There are others as well.  There are the neo-Calvinists.  etc.  While I do not have indepth knowledge of all or even any of the variants, there do seem to be differences.

Yes, there are differences.  It would probably behoove those of us on both sides to understand those differences instead of painting with a broad brush.

[Terrence]

...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim. 

Bonnie, Phoebe, and Jimmy:

I see why you so despises Calvinism, and would not consider what I've been saying (even if I were to make sense scripturally). If what you wrote above is what you really believe that I'm saying, Jimmy, I can see why you're angry. Let me say that what you wrote is not what I believe. In short, here's what I believe:

God gives man creation to Know that God exist (Rom 1:20)
God gives man a conscience so that man can know he is guilty before God, and thus seek God (Rom 2:15)
God gives man a choice to "chooses this day whom he'd serve - sin or God."
However, with his freewill man chooses to "not seek God" (Rom 3:11, Psa 14:2-3). In fact, though God wants them to come because he finds no joy in destroying them; though he will, they just "will not come" (Matt 23:37).
Instead of coming, man suppress the truth in unrighteousness so that he can continue with his will being done and not God (Rom 1:18).
Since God already knew before that none would seek him (Psa 14:2-3), because they love darkness more than light (John 3:19); God before the foundation of the world choose a people whom He'd  be merciful to.
He predestined that these people, namely those whom he foreknew, would be given faith and then called by the gospel (2The 2:13-14).
God saved these people to display His amazing grace (Eph 1:6).
God left others in their freewill choice to not be saved, and so allowed them to continue in their sin that he might be praised to the glory of His justice and wrath (Rom 9:22-23, Proverbs 16:4).

In short, that's what I believe. It still may be different from you and you still may find it a little nutty, but I hope it at least makes some sense to you now.

There may be some subtle difference from the dipiction that I laid out above.  But it is subtle.  Your position still is that God chooses those who will be saved and those who will not be saved.  Free choice however you have defined it can have no influence one way or the other on that decision.  Thus by default, God has choosen in advance who He will condemn to hell.  That is unacceptable and loathsome.

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

[Terrence]

Terrence,

Reformed Theology or Calvinism;  I don't really see a lot of difference.  Of course there are several brands of reformed theology and I can't be sure which of them you advocate.  But again, I don't see a whole lot of difference in them fundamentally.

Hi again.

There's no difference. Reformed Theology is another name to describe Calvinism. I'm not sure what you meant about "other brands of reformed theology." I wasn't aware of any.

There is the Presbyterian Reformed Theology,  There is the Baptist Reformed Theology.  There are others as well.  There are the neo-Calvinists.  etc.  While I do not have indepth knowledge of all or even any of the variants, there do seem to be differences.

Yes, there are differences.  It would probably behoove those of us on both sides to understand those differences instead of painting with a broad brush.

There is, you're right. I figure since the board wasn't too familiar with reformed theology and Calvinism, I'd just keep it really broad and simple.

[Bonnie]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

That's a good question, Terrence.  I sure don't have the answer though.
Manna for you.

Bonnie

[Jimmy]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

Because God does not control the reproductive processes on an individual basis.  He put the the process into play at the time of creation with the laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.  Any intervening which He may choose to deal with individually represents a special case and not the general process.

[Bonnie]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

Because God does not control the reproductive processes on an individual basis.  He put the the process into play at the time of creation with the laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.  Any intervening which He may choose to deal with individually represents a special case and not the general process.

Thanks, Jimmy, makes sense to me.

[Gillian]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

That's a good question, Terrence.  I sure don't have the answer though.
Manna for you.

Bonnie

For God's purpose and glory, why else!?!  ::

[Gillian]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

Because God does not control the reproductive processes on an individual basis.  He put the the process into play at the time of creation with the laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.  Any intervening which He may choose to deal with individually represents a special case and not the general process.

Sounds like your theology is sprinkled with deism. God knows the number of hairs on our heads, He knows all the stars by name, he named them, he knows when a sparrow falls to the ground and dies ect...ect...ect... And He is very much involved in all aspects of His creation continually.

[da525382]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

[Bon Voyage]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

The following isn't too popular an answer to this question, but it comes straight from God's Word:

Romans 9

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

[spurly]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Because he chose to.

[Gillian]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

[da525382]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Because he chose to.

So, he chose specifically to create unbelieving people to never accept Christ?

[da525382]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

Well, then why don't you refer to the text book for us and answer this simple question?

[Bon Voyage]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

Well, then why don't you refer to the book for us and answer this simple question?

I did.

[da525382]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

Well, then why don't you refer to the book for us and answer this simple question?

I did.

I'm glad.  My question is directed to Gillian.

[spurly]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Because he chose to.

So, he chose specifically to create unbelieving people to never accept Christ?

Nope.  Not what I said.  That's the problems with statements like this, too much is read into them based on the presuppositions that others hold.

God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would accept him and who wouldn't from the beginning of time.  However, even though some of those people would never respond to his grace, God still showered his grace and love on them through creation and through trying to draw them to his son.  And even if they choose not to accept Christ, God will still be glorified as God in the end.

[da525382]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Because he chose to.

So, he chose specifically to create unbelieving people to never accept Christ?

Nope.  Not what I said.  That's the problems with statements like this, too much is read into them based on the presuppositions that others hold.

God, in his foreknowledge, knew who would accept him and who wouldn't from the beginning of time.  However, even though some of those people would never respond to his grace, God still showered his grace and love on them through creation and through trying to draw them to his son.  And even if they choose not to accept Christ, God will still be glorified as God in the end.

I very much agree with your statement about presuppositions.  It is you yourself who said God "chose" to do something, yet you contradict that in this clarifying statement above, IMO. What specifically is it you are saying that God "chose" to do?

[spurly]

God chose to create us and give us free will, knowing that some of us would choose that free will to reject him.  Yet God still made that choice, and he still chooses to lavish his grace on all those who choose to come to him through the Son.

[Jimmy]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

That's a good question, Terrence.  I sure don't have the answer though.
Manna for you.

Bonnie

For God's purpose and glory, why else!?!  ::

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

Because God does not control the reproductive processes on an individual basis.  He put the the process into play at the time of creation with the laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.  Any intervening which He may choose to deal with individually represents a special case and not the general process.

Sounds like your theology is sprinkled with deism. God knows the number of hairs on our heads, He knows all the stars by name, he named them, he knows when a sparrow falls to the ground and dies ect...ect...ect... And He is very much involved in all aspects of His creation continually.

I guess that is the explanation for all the miscarrrages.  And of course, anytime that there is a baby born with deformities, that too is for God's purpose and glory.  Then of course, there are all those born out of wedlock.  Since that is God's doing and not that of the unmarried, then there can be no stigma attached to the parents;  all they did was have sex, it was God who produced the child.

Right, For God's purpose and glory, why else!?!   That is really sick.

[spurly]

Jimmy, before you go too far in your rant, you may want to look at John 9.  By the way, Jimmy, I am not a Calvinist but I do believe on our side we don't give enough attention to the sovereignty of God and the fact that everything in creation will redound to the glory of God.

[Jimmy]

Jimmy, before you go too far in your rant, you may want to look at John 9.

The glory of God was demonstrated in the actions of Jesus not in the fact of the physical deformities of the man.

[Gillian]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

Well, then why don't you refer to the text book for us and answer this simple question?

How could I forget, yes of course!

First let me say this: Men are sent to hell out of pure, holy and unfettered justice that demands the punishment of their vile sins. God is under no compulsion or obligation to show mercy, grace or redeeming love to any person. There is a single "five letter word" that will separate the worst sinner from the parapet of hell and the most adoring saint in heaven: GRACE. Nothing else. And if grace is only effective on the willing, what does grace become? A mere wooing force.

In the Arminian view, God wants to save every person ever born but is incapable of doing so. God loves every person equally, and despite this love and all He has done to save every person, millions will perish. I could easily argue that a God who created so many millions and millions of people, well knowing, that the final outcome millions of these objects of His love will end up in eternal punishment, and all His best efforts being frustrated, this would not be a very wise, powerful or loving God. Why would such an infinetly wise, God create and set His love on creatures that He knows will resist Him, and thwart His every effort to save them?
Being an Arminian, You don't believe in (The reformed doctrine of) limited Atonement. But actually Arminians limits the atonement not Calvinists.

Here are some words from Spurgeon:
Arminians say, Christ died for all men, what do you mean by this? did Christ die as to secure the atonement of all men? Arminaians say: No, certainly not! Next question: Did Christ die as to secure the atonement of any man in particular? The Arminian has to say no, if they want to stay consistent. Arminians say: "Christ has died that any man may be saved if" - and then follow certain conditions of salvation.
Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you (Arminians), You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We (Calvinists) beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say. "No. my dear sir, it is you that do it!" We (Calvinists) say Christ so died the He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it..... Charles Spurgeons comments. 

Now, onto the textbook..............

[Jimmy]

I think I am beginning to understand now.  The text book of Calvinism is written by Spurgeon.  You might be better off choosing the Bible for your text book. 

[Gillian]

Question: Why did God allow someone he knew that would never repent and choose Christ to be born?

The 64 million dollar question.

Thats not to difficult of a question. As with any questions you refer to the text book.

Well, then why don't you refer to the text book for us and answer this simple question?

To the textbook.

God did, from all eternity, decree to leave some of Adam's fallen posterity in their sins. Look at the Jews for example, they were in number the fewest of all people, nevertheless for many years (ages) God chose only them to make any special discovery of Himself. Jesus even forbade His disciples to go among any others Matthew 10:5-6, only to the lost sheep of Israel, until after His resurrection.

For the most part I will only give scripture verses for you to look up for yourself. If you are open minded and seriously will consider what is being said here, if you just look for an argument, my time is not wasted.

Remember the word of Jesus in the last day, Depart from Me, for I never knew you? So there will be many who "go with the flow" so to speak, who claim they are Christians, but, Christ never knew them Matthew 7:23.

Jesus divides the whole world into two categories: One he calles the world, the other: the men who were "given to Him" out of the world John 17:9.
The two twins in Romans 9:11 Paul, from the example of these two twins infers the eternal election of some and the eternal rejection of all the rest.

Some men were ordained to continue in their natural blindness, and hardness of heart Isaiah 6:9-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12. Read Exodus 9, 1 Samuel 2:25, 2 Samuel 17:14.

God even decreed the Jews to be, in effect, the crucifies of Christ and Judas to betray Him Acts 4:27-28, Matthew 26:23-24, they did exactally what  God's predestined plan was. 

The LORD has made everything for it's own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil, Proverbs 16:4.

Were some prepared for destruction?, Does God have a right to do so? Romans 9:15-32.

Read for yourself, if you need more scripture references, just ask.