For Or Against the Death Penalty?

[Bonnie]

If you voted yes, can you give Scripture from the NT to back your opinion?

Thank you,
Bonnie

[broach972]

One could go back to the OT...

What part of "Thou shalt not kill" do these people not understand?

[Bonnie]

One could go back to the OT...

What part of "Thou shalt not kill" do these people not understand?

Thanks for posting. I don't know but if there's something to base this on I'd like to know it.  So many Christians are involved in it.

[Kelly]

Bonnie, in the 13th chapter of Romans we see that Paul admonishes the people to respect the governing authorities, and that if they want to have no fear of them, to do what is good. He also tells them something vitally important in verse 4:

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

"Bear the sword" was not misunderstood in that time. It was a direct statement meaning "penalty even unto death." From my understanding (holdover learning from Bible college) whenever a Roman Governor was installed into office, part of the ceremony included handing the Governor a ceremonial sword with the inscription, "For me; if necessary, in me."

This was to serve as a reminder that not even he was above the law. Of course, we know that this wasn't always taken so seriously by Roman leaders....

Still, the understanding was given by Paul that this was not unusual or improper; it you do what is right, you don't have to worry about the penalty of being a lawbreaker. However, the only thing that will squelch the rising tide of lawlessness is the enforcement of the penalty. Part of the problem we have in our country today is the fact that our legal system has been rendered to the state of nearly being a toothless dog. Even the bark sounds funny, let alone any concern over a bite.

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (NIV) = When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong.

The love of God can give eternal life to even a mass murderer, if he truly turns to God and becomes obedient to Him, but it does not change the fact that his temporal life is still required as penalty.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Mat 15:4   For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.  (Jesus speaking)

Rom 1:18   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 1:32   Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 minutes of searching turned up these.  If you'd like I can find more.

[Bon Voyage]

I have small children.  I am for it. 

[spurly]

What is God's will, i.e., the death penalty?  I think that the paragraph below might sum it up.

The wages of sin is death.  Thankfully, for all those who come to Christ that death penalty was carried out in the Son on whom God poured out his wrath.  Now, even though we deserve the sentence of death, we can receive the gift of life through Christ who is both our substitutionary sacrifice and our great high priest sitting at the right hand of God.

[marc]

I was opposed to the death penalty for most of my life.  I still don't like it, but a few years back I was hired to type an unedited manuscript (an argument for leniency which used the fact that he had made sure women were unconscious before he  killed them as a point in his favor) by a serial rapist/murderer name Bobby Joe Long.  I know it's likely the wrong thing to feel, but after what I read, it didn't seem right to let him live.

But no, I can't back that with NT scripture.

[Bon Voyage]

Why must we back up everything with NT Scripture?  I thought II Tim 3:16-17 was scriptural as well.

[admin]

Under the Laws given in the Old Testament, the death penalty was not only permissible but required. That means that at one time at least God not only approved of, but commanded the death penalty for certain actions. In fact, here are some examples of what crimes required the death penalty based on God's Words:

Death Penalty for Murder
Genesis 9:5-6 (Context: Covenant with Noah after the Flood)
Numbers 35:31

Law of the Talion
Exodus 21:22-24, See also Deuteronomy 19:21

Death Penalty for Other Offenses
Death Penalty for Blasphemy Death Penalty for Fornication/Adultery
Leviticus 24:13-23 Deuteronomy 22:21-24, Deuteronomy 20:10

Death Penalty for Rape. Death Penalty for Incest
Deuteronomy 22:25 Leviticus 20:11

Death Penalty for Bestiality. Death Penalty for Disobeying Priests
Leviticus 20:15-16 Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Death Penalty for Theft, for Enslaving Others, For Kidnapping
Deuteronomy 24:7, Exodus 21:16

Death Penalty for Leading Others Astray from Worship of the One True God
Deuteronomy 13:6-11, See also Deuteronomy 17:2-5

Death Penalty for Disobedience to Parents or Striking Parents
Deuteronomy 21:18, 20-21, Exodus 21:15, Exodus 21:17

Death Penalty for Sorcery/Fortune Telling. Death Penalty for Desecrating the Sabbath
Exodus 2:17, Leviticus 20:27 Exodus 35:2

Note also that not all killings are capital crimes
Exodus 21:12, Numbers 35:22, Deuteronomy 19:4-13 (these establish cities of refuge). So it is inaccurate to use the word "murder" for all forced deaths. For example, if someone kills in self defense, it is not murder. If someone kills in military service, it is not murder. If someone breaks into your house and you don't know if they are a threat to your life or not, according to the Bible, it is not murder if you kill them (Exodus 22:2). The Sixth Commandment is "You shall not murder." It is incorrect to translate it as "You shall not kill" because the word is actually "murder" and because God actually commanded certain people to be killed.

I see the death penalty when conducted on people who have killed and would likely kill again to be self defense.

[Bonnie]

Bonnie, in the 13th chapter of Romans we see that Paul admonishes the people to respect the governing authorities, and that if they want to have no fear of them, to do what is good. He also tells them something vitally important in verse 4:

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

I think Paul gave good advise concerning our respect for those in authority and yes, they can come and get us, lock us up, and kill us. If this be the case and a brother or sister has killed someone in cold blood I think they've already went against the Will of God and no longer in fellowship with Him anyway.

We should be law abiding people up to the point - where the line is crossed and the law goes against the Bible.
Showing respect and praying for these individuals is all I find a Christian is required to do.

"Bear the sword" was not misunderstood in that time. It was a direct statement meaning "penalty even unto death." From my understanding (holdover learning from Bible college) whenever a Roman Governor was installed into office, part of the ceremony included handing the Governor a ceremonial sword with the inscription, "For me; if necessary, in me."

This was to serve as a reminder that not even he was above the law. Of course, we know that this wasn't always taken so seriously by Roman leaders....

[/quote]


The leaders we have today are far from being Godly and many have escaped prison due to the fact that they were in authority and no other reason.

Still, the understanding was given by Paul that this was not unusual or improper; it you do what is right, you don't have to worry about the penalty of being a lawbreaker. However, the only thing that will squelch the rising tide of lawlessness is the enforcement of the penalty. Part of the problem we have in our country today is the fact that our legal system has been rendered to the state of nearly being a toothless dog. Even the bark sounds funny, let alone any concern over a bite.

[/quote]



Let's not put words in the apostle's mouth. I note that from "however" and on is your opinion. Right?

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (NIV) = When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong.

The love of God can give eternal life to even a mass murderer, if he truly turns to God and becomes obedient to Him, but it does not change the fact that his temporal life is still required as penalty.[/quote] [/quote]



Yes, it's true a mass murderer can be forgiven and go to heaven.

God Bless,
Bonnie

[Bonnie]

Mat 15:4   For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.  (Jesus speaking)

Rom 1:18   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 1:32   Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 minutes of searching turned up these.  If you'd like I can find more.

Yes, but just can't go snatching up verses here and there and taking them out of context.  I don't see anything here that is for the Death Penalty under man's laws.

[Bonnie]

I have small children.  I am for it. 

Are you saying that having small children makes the Death Penalty law okay with God?

[Bonnie]

What is God's will, i.e., the death penalty?  I think that the paragraph below might sum it up.

The wages of sin is death.  Thankfully, for all those who come to Christ that death penalty was carried out in the Son on whom God poured out his wrath.  Now, even though we deserve the sentence of death, we can receive the gift of life through Christ who is both our substitutionary sacrifice and our great high priest sitting at the right hand of God.

How did you come to that decision, Spurly?  Aren't the Scritpures here speaking of the second death of the soul?

[Bonnie]

I was opposed to the death penalty for most of my life.  I still don't like it, but a few years back I was hired to type an unedited manuscript (an argument for leniency which used the fact that he had made sure women were unconscious before he  killed them as a point in his favor) by a serial rapist/murderer name Bobby Joe Long.  I know it's likely the wrong thing to feel, but after what I read, it didn't seem right to let him live.

But no, I can't back that with NT scripture.

Why are you for something that you can't back up with the bible?  We are His servants, first and foremost.

God bless,
Bonnie

[Kelly]

Bonnie, you said, "I note that from 'however' and on is your opinion. Right?" But then you didn't recognize that what you called "my opinion" is clearly supported by the next verse I used, Ecclesiastes 8:11. Compare, again, the two:

My thoughts: "However, the only thing that will squelch the rising tide of lawlessness is the enforcement of the penalty. Part of the problem we have in our country today is the fact that our legal system has been rendered to the state of nearly being a toothless dog. Even the bark sounds funny, let alone any concern over a bite."

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (NIV) = "When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong."

Why do you think our country is one of the most (if not the most) violent nations in the world? The crime that takes place in this country continues to increase each year, and largely it is due to the fact that our system has come to protect lawbreakers more than victims. The old adage used to be, "Crime doesn't pay." Sadly, that's not so true anymore...which is why so many turn to crime--the payout is worth the minimal risk of conviction or the light penalty most often imposed.

What I have given you is what you asked for; NT scripture to support the death penalty. You still have the right to like it or not, but you can't dispute that Paul acknowledged the right of the government--as "God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer", even unto death.

[Bonnie]

Under the Laws given in the Old Testament, the death penalty was not only permissible but required. That means that at one time at least God not only approved of, but commanded the death penalty for certain actions. In fact, here are some examples of what crimes required the death penalty based on God's Words:

Death Penalty for Murder
Genesis 9:5-6 (Context: Covenant with Noah after the Flood)
Numbers 35:31

Law of the Talion
Exodus 21:22-24, See also Deuteronomy 19:21

Death Penalty for Other Offenses
Death Penalty for Blasphemy Death Penalty for Fornication/Adultery
Leviticus 24:13-23 Deuteronomy 22:21-24, Deuteronomy 20:10

Death Penalty for Rape. Death Penalty for Incest
Deuteronomy 22:25 Leviticus 20:11

Death Penalty for Bestiality. Death Penalty for Disobeying Priests
Leviticus 20:15-16 Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Death Penalty for Theft, for Enslaving Others, For Kidnapping
Deuteronomy 24:7, Exodus 21:16

Death Penalty for Leading Others Astray from Worship of the One True God
Deuteronomy 13:6-11, See also Deuteronomy 17:2-5

Death Penalty for Disobedience to Parents or Striking Parents
Deuteronomy 21:18, 20-21, Exodus 21:15, Exodus 21:17

Death Penalty for Sorcery/Fortune Telling. Death Penalty for Desecrating the Sabbath
Exodus 2:17, Leviticus 20:27 Exodus 35:2

Note also that not all killings are capital crimes
Exodus 21:12, Numbers 35:22, Deuteronomy 19:4-13 (these establish cities of refuge). So it is inaccurate to use the word "murder" for all forced deaths. For example, if someone kills in self defense, it is not murder. If someone kills in military service, it is not murder. If someone breaks into your house and you don't know if they are a threat to your life or not, according to the Bible, it is not murder if you kill them (Exodus 22:2). The Sixth Commandment is "You shall not murder." It is incorrect to translate it as "You shall not kill" because the word is actually "murder" and because God actually commanded certain people to be killed.

I see the death penalty when conducted on people who have killed and would likely kill again to be self defense.

Yes, but we're not living under the Mosiac law in the OT.

Where can we find these other exceptions in the bible?

God bless,
Bonnie

[Petals]

This is from the Old Testament, but since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16, here it is:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal...

[Bonnie]

Why must we back up everything with NT Scripture?  I thought II Tim 3:16-17 was scriptural as well.

11 Timothy 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I don't see a connection.

[Imabear]

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

  But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
     "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

WWJD?
I'm actually on the fence on this one.  I voted "not sure"

[normfromga]

One could ask "Should we punish any criminal, and if so, what is your NT basis?" and I am sure we would likewise come up empty.

Our only recorded reference to a "Christian" response to a capital offense is recorded in the beginning of Chapter 8 of John, where Jesus simply told the adulterous woman to "Go, and sin no more."

Do you advocate opening all our prisons and admonish criminals to "Behave yourselves!" or do we continue the heathen practice of (at the least) incarceration?

[Dang, w8ing4daybreake, you beat me!]

[Bonnie]

Bonnie, you said, "I note that from 'however' and on is your opinion. Right?" But then you didn't recognize that what you called "my opinion" is clearly supported by the next verse I used, Ecclesiastes 8:11. Compare, again, the two:

My thoughts: "However, the only thing that will squelch the rising tide of lawlessness is the enforcement of the penalty. Part of the problem we have in our country today is the fact that our legal system has been rendered to the state of nearly being a toothless dog. Even the bark sounds funny, let alone any concern over a bite."

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (NIV) = "When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong."

Why do you think our country is one of the most (if not the most) violent nations in the world? The crime that takes place in this country continues to increase each year, and largely it is due to the fact that our system has come to protect lawbreakers more than victims. The old adage used to be, "Crime doesn't pay." Sadly, that's not so true anymore...which is why so many turn to crime--the payout is worth the minimal risk of conviction or the light penalty most often imposed.

What I have given you is what you asked for; NT scripture to support the death penalty. You still have the right to like it or not, but you can't dispute that Paul acknowledged the right of the government--as "God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer", even unto death.

Paul was jailed himself many times for NOT obeying the laws of man - when they are in opposition to God's Will.

I believe Soloman is speaking about sin... because God does not immediately take vengeance upon a sinner, he thinks he is getting away with it.

Blessings,
Bonnie

[Bonnie]

This is from the Old Testament, but since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16, here it is:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal...

You are speaking about a time when Israel was physcial. They were God's chosen people.  We would do well today to have a man like Solomon... instead of our elected officials.

Thanks for your input, trueblue.

[Bonnie]

John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

  But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
     "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

WWJD?
I'm actually on the fence on this one.  I voted "not sure"

We just don't live under Mosaic law as Jesus has demonstarted here.

[Bonnie]

One could ask "Should we punish any criminal, and if so, what is your NT basis?" and I am sure we would likewise come up empty.

Our only recorded reference to a "Christian" response to a capital offense is recorded in the beginning of Chapter 8 of John, where Jesus simply told the adulterous woman to "Go, and sin no more."

Do you advocate opening all our prisons and admonish criminals to "Behave yourselves!" or do we continue the heathen practice of (at the least) incarceration?

[Dang, w8ing4daybreake, you beat me!]

I don't have all the answers and that's why I wanted everyone's input here.
No way! I think prison or a hospital is where the ones who aren't capable of living in society should be.

Thanks,
Bonnie

[admin]

I think prison or a hospital is where the ones who aren't capable of living in society should be.

Bonnie, where is your scripture to justify that?

[spurly]

Bonnie, do you realize that without Christ you, too, are under the sentence of death - even more than those sitting on death row?  That's why I stated what I stated above.  It is our job to take the good news of Christ to people so that they can be delivered from death to life by the blood of Jesus Christ.

[broach972]

Mat 15:4   For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.  (Jesus speaking)

Rom 1:18   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 1:32   Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 minutes of searching turned up these.  If you'd like I can find more.

One must question if these verses mean that the "state" has the right to carry out a death sentence.  No doubt that God may strike any man down if He wishes.  However, do these verses sanction man carrying out such sentences?  I do not think so.

[zoonance]

Mat 15:4   For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.  (Jesus speaking)

Rom 1:18   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 1:32   Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 minutes of searching turned up these.  If you'd like I can find more.

One must question if these verses mean that the "state" has the right to carry out a death sentence.  No doubt that God may strike any man down if He wishes.  However, do these verses sanction man carrying out such sentences.  I do not think so.

What is man sanctioned to carry out?

[Jimbob]

This is from the Old Testament, but since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16, here it is:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal...

You are speaking about a time when Israel was physcial. They were God's chosen people.  We would do well today to have a man like Solomon... instead of our elected officials.

Thanks for your input, trueblue.

You mean a man who spent incredible fortunes on self-fancy, introduced all kinds of idolatry, had a harem, and whose sons ripped the nation apart leading to all sorts of political, social, religious, and economic mayhem?  You sure?   

[Bonnie]

I think prison or a hospital is where the ones who aren't capable of living in society should be.

Bonnie, where is your scripture to justify that?

If the Death Penalty is out don't you think it's the humane thing to do? If we as Christians had to make a choice.  Actually, Paul told them all what will happen to them if they choose to live that kind of life.  Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Jimbob]

deleted...saw your answer to a similar question.

[broach972]

What I have given you is what you asked for; NT scripture to support the death penalty. You still have the right to like it or not, but you can't dispute that Paul acknowledged the right of the government--as "God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer", even unto death.

This is a very weak argument.  You are assuming that "governments" are perfect in their judgements.  Only God's judgement is perfect and we should leave it to Him to deal with such matters.  What if an innocent man is put to death for a crime he did not commit?  In light of recent events involving DNA, one cannot dismiss the notion that there may be some on death row who should not be there.

Besides, "punishments" does not necessarily have to include death.  Man has no business rendering such punishments.

[Petals]

For most of my life I had a doormat philosophy of turning the other cheek and if someone wanted to harm you, you'd  take it as God's will.  Then I read the entire Bible over ten times and began to change my outlook.  Also, my life experiences has taught me that you have a right to protect yourself and your family from harm.  Before that, I always believed that if someone came to rob you and came into your house, you'd just have to consider it "God's will" and let them kill you and take what they want.   I know now that it was "stinking thinking." 

There are consequences to what you do, both good and bad, and God set up the laws that are in place today to prevent people from further "shedding innocent blood."   God did command people to kill at certain times, and if they didn't obey, they, themselves were killed.  There is a time to kill.  By killing murderers who show no remorse it will prevent other innocent victims from having their lives taken.  People who kill have little respect for human life to begin with.

Earlier this month, a local woman pastor who was working at a Lane Bryant store as manager was murdered along with 4 other innocent women who were mothers of young children, or newly married, or just starting out in life with hopes and dreams for a bright future.  They were working to earn a living, or just shopping for clothing.  The man who came to rob the store and anyone who walked in, brutally "lost it" as he could be heard saying on a 911 call.  He bound the women with duct tape, made them lie down on the floor, and shot them each in the head.  A sixth victim survived only because she moved her head. 

That man is roaming free as no one has provided a solid lead.  Will he kill again?  Most likely.  Should he receive a slap on the hand, and a reprimand once he is caught?  I don't think so!  What he did is worthy of death.  Babies are without their mamas today, because of that man.  Young husbands must now find a way to raise their children alone because he took the lives of their dear wives.

God is a just God, and a merciful one, but He's also a God that metes out punishment, and sometimes uses our legal system to administer it.  The Bible also calls certain people "dregs of the earth."  There are people that won't change their evil ways no matter what.  The same way they have a free will to do right, they choose to do wrong and things worthy of death. 

A few years ago there was a young woman named Carla who accepted the Lord in prison, and became a model prisoner.  She repented of murdering someone, and her life totally changed.  Even so, she went peacefully to be executed, because she knew that she had to pay for the crime she committed, and that she was forgiven and would go to heaven after she died. 

The death penalty is serious business, and it should make people realize the sanctity of human life.  It is in place to save lives, not just as punishment.

I could go on, but this has been long enough already. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

This is from the Old Testament, but since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16, here it is:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal...

You are speaking about a time when Israel was physcial. They were God's chosen people.  We would do well today to have a man like Solomon... instead of our elected officials.

Thanks for your input, trueblue.

You mean a man who spent incredible fortunes on self-fancy, introduced all kinds of idolatry, had a harem, and whose sons ripped the nation apart leading to all sorts of political, social, religious, and economic mayhem?  You sure?   

Yeah, I too hate it when people Ecclesiastes as an authoritative guide to How Things Should Be.