I Love My Jewish Mother

[John 1:1]

You are showing me a division here on this matter, in all of the time I was involved with the Catholic church, we in no way had anything remotely like what you are discussing trublue, I'm 40, how old are you, is this perhaps a generational thing that happened?  The churches I was involved in and school was from northern Canada to Washington state, I'll throw that onto the table in case demograpic area's perhaps might be something to do with this as well.

[Catholic Crusader]

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son for she is the mighty mother of God.

[John 1:1]

CC, you are just playing a game of catch up here, I am as well I see, seeing the arguments being put on the table now.  I thought we had progress made with this thread and we have, don't take it personally, if this is what they are saying, obviously we gotta dispell the myths and move on.  We are followers of Christ as you say, just gotta hammer out those rough edges on both sides and we can continue to fellowship here in peace and unity.

[Charles Sloan]

Mary is queen of heaven. In Jewish culture, the mother of the King was always the queen. The word used was "Gabirah" - "Great Lady". Read about Solomon and Bathsheeba. But this thread is not about that. But you can look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WwjFXw2yE0

I completely agree the Mary that the Roman Church whorships is the queen of heaven.

Complete Messages from Heaven  01:27:07

[broach972]

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son for she is the mighty mother of God.

[Catholic Crusader]

I completely agree the Mary that the Roman Church whorships is the queen of heaven....

Can you please tell me why you persist in saying that I worship Mary when I keep saying I don't? That type of closed-mindedness prevents us from understanding each other. I say again: We worship God alone. Any Catholic that "worships" Mary is a heretic by the Church's teaching. We will never understand each other if you continue to sling the same old untrue charges of "Mary worship" which even most protestant theologians say is an unfair charge.

[Catholic Crusader]

CC, I can undertand your frustration.  My postings have decreased on these threads due to the atmophere that is often created.  I have already been told that I have been brainwashed, etc (see the thread on Purgatory).  All you can do is present what Catholics actually believe and move on.  People will believe what they want to believe.

That is sound advice. Thank you. Since this turned in to a thread on praying to the saints, I wil say my peace and move on. I will start by asking two questions:

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is "specifically

[Charles Sloan]

I completely agree the Mary that the Roman Church whorships is the queen of heaven....

Can you please tell me why you persist in saying that I worship Mary when I keep saying I don't? That type of closed-mindedness prevents us from understanding each other. I say again: We worship God alone. Any Catholic that "worships" Mary is a heretic by the Church's teaching. We will never understand each other if you continue to sling the same old untrue charges of "Mary worship" which even most protestant theologians say is an unfair charge.

Mr. Crusader, do you honestly think we don't have Roman Churches in Wisconsin? Do you believe I have never been in a Roman whorship service? My entire family is Roman Catholic, (on my mothers side) so I am more than familiar with the practices and the doctrines that are taught about Mary.

I just attended a Roman marriage ceremony last year where my brother in-law renewed his vows. At the end of the ceremony, the priest directed everyone to bow before the effigy of Mary and to pray to her.

That is whorship.

[John 1:1]

Relax buddy, Charles has something to show us here..




Take note to the similarties in facial structure!!! Joking of course, I hope to lighten things up here.

Any of you guys want to put your beliefs on the table here, as to what you think Catholics do or believe, and are in opposition of, by all means do so, I'm learning much on this matter.  Honestly, so far I'm seeing nothing in the basis of fact, at least from the mainstream perspective.  Still intrigued with that Mary ceremony, never heard of it before at all, I gotta get to the bottom line on that one now that it's on the table.  Any enlightenment here guys, Catholics are more then welcomed to respond.

[Catholic Crusader]

Let me throw in one other thing: You guys say this is a "Catholic" thing. But in fact, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, "Traditional" Anglicans, Coptic Christians, and a handful of others also believe in the intecession of the saints. Together, this means that OVER 80% OF ALL CHRISTIANS PRAY TO THE SAINTS!. Now you can disagree with the practice if you chose, but don't say it is a Catholic thing, because it is not, and remember that by denying this truth you are in the extreme minority of Christianty.

[Charles Sloan]

Let me throw in one other thing: You guys say this is a "Catholic" thing. But in fact, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, "Traditional" Anglicans, Coptic Christians, and a handful of others also believe in the intecession of the saints. Together, this means that OVER 80% OF ALL CHRISTIANS PRAY TO THE SAINTS!. Now you can disagree with the practice if you chose, but don't say it is a Catholic thing, because it is not, and remember that by denying this truth you are in the extreme minority of Christianty.

Not everyone who claims the name of Christ are Christian.

[Catholic Crusader]

Mr. Crusader, do you honestly think we don't have Roman Churches in Wisconsin? Do you believe I have never been in a Roman whorship service? My entire family is Roman Catholic, (on my mothers side) so I am more than familiar with the practices and the doctrines that are taught about Mary.
I just attended a Roman marriage ceremony last year where my brother in-law renewed his vows. At the end of the ceremony, the priest directed everyone to bow before the effigy of Mary and to pray to her. That is whorship.

I don't care if the Pope is your uncle. You are wrong. You don't understand doctrine by osmosis. Just because yopu have family members who are Catholic does not make you an expert in Catholic doctrine.

[John 1:1]

I completely agree the Mary that the Roman Church whorships is the queen of heaven....

Can you please tell me why you persist in saying that I worship Mary when I keep saying I don't? That type of closed-mindedness prevents us from understanding each other. I say again: We worship God alone. Any Catholic that "worships" Mary is a heretic by the Church's teaching. We will never understand each other if you continue to sling the same old untrue charges of "Mary worship" which even most protestant theologians say is an unfair charge.

Mr. Crusader, do you honestly think we don't have Roman Churches in Wisconsin? Do you believe I have never been in a Roman whorship service? My entire family is Roman Catholic, (on my mothers side) so I am more than familiar with the practices and the doctrines that are taught about Mary.

I just attended a Roman marriage ceremony last year where my brother in-law renewed his vows. At the end of the ceremony, the priest directed everyone to bow before the effigy of Mary and to pray to her.

That is whorship.

Dude, I gotta get back to mass and see if this is going on now, this is going to end here and now if it's the case, you do know that, I got this little building I'm going to open the doors to soon, Catholics are more then welcome as well as all other denominations, I cannot believe what I'm hearing, it's blasphemy at this point, if it's true and now mainstream, it's going to change and if I gotta be rude about it, so be it.

[Charles Sloan]

Mr. Crusader, do you honestly think we don't have Roman Churches in Wisconsin? Do you believe I have never been in a Roman whorship service? My entire family is Roman Catholic, (on my mothers side) so I am more than familiar with the practices and the doctrines that are taught about Mary.
I just attended a Roman marriage ceremony last year where my brother in-law renewed his vows. At the end of the ceremony, the priest directed everyone to bow before the effigy of Mary and to pray to her. That is whorship.

I don't care if the Pope is your uncle. You are wrong. You don't understand doctrine by osmosis. Just because yopu have family members who are Catholic does not make you an expert in Catholic doctrine.

I don't have to agree with doctrine to understand it.

[Catholic Crusader]

Let me throw in one other thing: You guys say this is a "Catholic" thing. But in fact, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, "Traditional" Anglicans, Coptic Christians, and a handful of others also believe in the intecession of the saints. Together, this means that OVER 80% OF ALL CHRISTIANS PRAY TO THE SAINTS!. Now you can disagree with the practice if you chose, but don't say it is a Catholic thing, because it is not, and remember that by denying this truth you are in the extreme minority of Christianty.

Not everyone who claims the name of Christ are Christian.

You side-stepped my point: I said this is just not a Catholic belief. Many others believe it as well.

[Charles Sloan]

Let me throw in one other thing: You guys say this is a "Catholic" thing. But in fact, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, "Traditional" Anglicans, Coptic Christians, and a handful of others also believe in the intecession of the saints. Together, this means that OVER 80% OF ALL CHRISTIANS PRAY TO THE SAINTS!. Now you can disagree with the practice if you chose, but don't say it is a Catholic thing, because it is not, and remember that by denying this truth you are in the extreme minority of Christianty.

Not everyone who claims the name of Christ are Christian.

You side-stepped my point: I said this is just not a Catholic belief. Many others believe it as well.

My point is that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are one. And numbers mean nothing. If the entire world was whorshipping an effigy and praying to something... I don't know, maybe a dragon or a beast; that wouldn't make them right if they called themselves "Christians" would it?

Truth is not measured by majority.

[John 1:1]

Well, will stand here ignored and let you guys hammer out your differences, just can you both agree, Christ died for our sins, that he is the truth, the way, and the light and that no man may come to the father except through him?

[Charles Sloan]

Well, will stand here ignored and let you guys hammer out your differences, just can you both agree, Christ died for our sins, that he is the truth, the way, and the light and that no man may come to the father except through him?

I'm not ignoring you Brian. This whole Roman Church thing is one of my pet peeves, that really burns me up.

Jesus didn't die for people to have his dead mother intercede for them.

[Petals]

You are showing me a division here on this matter, in all of the time I was involved with the Catholic church, we in no way had anything remotely like what you are discussing trublue, I'm 40, how old are you, is this perhaps a generational thing that happened?  The churches I was involved in and school was from northern Canada to Washington state, I'll throw that onto the table in case demograpic area's perhaps might be something to do with this as well.

John, I am older than you and was raised in a very STRICT Catholic environment.  What I've said here is the truth and was a common practice here in the Midwest.  Maybe it still is, but I don't know since I left the church and have only visited on rare occasions.  During my time as a Catholic, the Mass was still in Latin, and I got to where I could repeat it word for word.  Same with the rosary...I could pray it in my sleep as it was so repetitious. 

I want to state here that I do not discount everything the Catholic church teaches as there were many good things that I learned while there for which I will be eternally grateful.   

[John 1:1]

Nor is she being protrayed in that manner, let's figure out why others perceive it as being.  I was never told Mary was our saviour at all, nor was she even necessary for given an iota of thought in any regards on any level, heck I could have lived my entire life as a Catholic and never heard of her in the first place and it would be perfectly fine in my book.

I feel outside denominations make her out to be more then what she is in the Catholic faith, this has absolutly gotta come to and end, it's simply not that way at all.  I think there were around 10 times max she was even mentioned in all of the time I went to mass and CCD and Sunday school, of which I was at  on a regular basis up until late high school.  If things have changed, I guess I have a mission to change them back............

[John 1:1]

You are showing me a division here on this matter, in all of the time I was involved with the Catholic church, we in no way had anything remotely like what you are discussing trublue, I'm 40, how old are you, is this perhaps a generational thing that happened?  The churches I was involved in and school was from northern Canada to Washington state, I'll throw that onto the table in case demograpic area's perhaps might be something to do with this as well.

John, I am older than you and was raised in a very STRICT Catholic environment.  What I've said here is the truth and was a common practice here in the Midwest.  Maybe it still is, but I don't know since I left the church and have only visited on rare occasions.  During my time as a Catholic, the Mass was still in Latin, and I got to where I could repeat it word for word.  Same with the rosary...I could pray it in my sleep as it was so repetitious. 

Trueblue, I think we have a latin sect in this regard then, this is not angecan at all.  I'm learning much here today, much more then I thought I would, my eyes are opening up to realizing the decent on this matter.

[broach972]

Well, will stand here ignored and let you guys hammer out your differences, just can you both agree, Christ died for our sins, that he is the truth, the way, and the light and that no man may come to the father except through him?

I'm not ignoring you Brian. This whole Roman Church thing is one of my pet peeves, that really burns me up.

Jesus didn't die for people to have his dead mother intercede for them.

I don't attend a "Roman" Church.  I attend a Catholic Church...I think you have been warned about this.

[Tantor]

If you support the pope... you are roman catholic.

[Charles Sloan]

Nor is she being protrayed in that manner, let's figure out why others perceive it as being.  I was never told Mary was our saviour at all, nor was she even necessary for given an iota of thought in any regards on any level, heck I could have lived my entire life as a Catholic and never heard of her in the first place and it would be perfectly fine in my book.

I feel outside denominations make her out to be more then what she is in the Catholic faith, this has absolutly gotta come to and end, it's simply not that way at all.  I think there were around 10 times max she was even mentioned in all of the time I went to mass and CCD and Sunday school, of which I was at  on a regular basis up until late high school.  If things have changed, I guess I have a mission to change them back............

Brian, I have been on a mission to reach people in the Roman Church since I was converted and started preaching to my family. This is part of the reason I was ostracized from my family, because of my unyielding need to be a witness for Christ despite adversity and rejection. I don't hate Catholics, like some here would try and depict me. But I do hate their vile and detestable doctrines, and how they have corrupted the Church that Jesus bled and died to saved. I also believe that the Roman Church is Babylon the Great spoken of in Rev 17:5, and that the false prophet with raise out of their sect. But these are not new beliefs, these are very commonly held beliefs among fundamentalists.

If you don't believe the things I have said are true, please look up the word "Mediatrix" on-line and read what the Roman Church says about her. I won't direct you to any particular site, because I don't need to. They all say pretty much the same thing.

[John 1:1]

We are finally getting to the bottom line of this, the latin "catholic" church is NOT the mainstream Catholic church by any means, once we get over that, leave them to their own little world, we can have a realistic debate on this.  We need a latin Catholic and a mainstream thread to differentiate the two sides, they clearly are not the same Church at all folks.

[Charles Sloan]

Well, will stand here ignored and let you guys hammer out your differences, just can you both agree, Christ died for our sins, that he is the truth, the way, and the light and that no man may come to the father except through him?

I'm not ignoring you Brian. This whole Roman Church thing is one of my pet peeves, that really burns me up.

Jesus didn't die for people to have his dead mother intercede for them.

I don't attend a "Roman" Church.  I attend a Catholic Church...I think you have been warned about this.

If you think that I cannot call your sect the Roman Church, I believe you are mistaken.

I haven't called anyone a romanist, a papist, or heretick or a cutlist.

By the way, heres a quote from your sect's website:

THE ROMAN CURIA
In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors.
CHRISTUS DOMINUS, 9

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm

[John 1:1]

false prophet with raise out of their sect

the sect is called Islam, and their prophet if mohammed, I need say no more.

At least we can course correct the offshoots from the original church, they call it Catholic, but man o man, put things into perspective here and quit tearing up our brotherhood here on beliefs, we believe in the same Son of God as Christ, we believe he is the lamb of God, we believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy spirit, why do we continue to remain divided?  The real enemy is at our gates and we sit here debating over semantics over who is pleasing God best when our feilds are being burned down and our daughters are raped!!!!

[Charles Sloan]

false prophet with raise out of their sect

the sect is called Islam, and their prophet if mohammed, I need say no more.

At least we can course correct the offshoots from the original church, they call it Catholic, but man o man, put things into perspective here and quit tearing up our brotherhood here on beliefs, we believe in the same Son of God as Christ, we believe he is the lamb of God, we believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy spirit, we do we continue to remain divided?  The real enemy is at our gates and we sit here debating over semantics over who is pleasing God best when our fields are bieng burned down and our daughters are raped!!!!

This is not a mere offshoot of Christianity, no more than the Mormon Church or the Jehovah's witness are an offshoot of Christianity. They also claim to believe in the Son of God and things that are Biblical, but when they start to elevate their extrabiblical doctrines to the level of Scripture like the Cathecism, Magisterium, the Book of Mormon, Awake!, the Watchtower, etc.; they make shipwreck the faith.

These are not simple semantics we are talking about here.

[Catholic Crusader]

...If you think that I cannot call your sect the Roman Church, I believe you are mistaken....

You can call it whatever you want..  ..if you want to be rude. The question is: Why would you? Do you not know that thew Roman Rite is just one of the many rites that constitute the community of churches that are in union with the pope and that make up the "Catholic Church"? There are Roman Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, and many many more. Once again, as with everything else, you show an utter lack of understanding of the Church. If someone says to you "We would appreciate it if you addressed us in a certain way", why would you not? Are you not supposed to not cause your brother to stumble? Why would you continue to say things that you KNOW upset your brothers? Is that how Christians should behave according to your expert understanding of scriptures?

[Charles Sloan]

...If you think that I cannot call your sect the Roman Church, I believe you are mistaken....

You can call it whatever you want..  ..if you want to be rude. The question is: Why would you? Do you not know that thew Roman Rite is just one of the many rites that constitute the community of church that are in union with the pope and that make up the "Catholic Church"? There are Roman Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, and many many more. Once again, as with everything else, you show an utter lack of understanding of the Church. If someone says to you "We would appreciate it if you addressed us in a certain way", why would you not? Are you not supposed to not cause your brother to stumble? Why would you continue to say things that you KNOW upset your brothers? Is that how Christians should behave according to your expert understanding of scriptures?

The Church under the Roman pontiff is the Roman Church. Thats all I am saying.

No harm intended.

[John 1:1]

Define "they"

[Catholic Crusader]

...and what the heck has all this got to do with "I Love My Jewish Mother"?

[Catholic Crusader]

...The Church under the Roman pontiff is the Roman Church. Thats all I am saying. No harm intended.

And again, the Roman Rite is just one of the many rites that constitute the community of churches that are in union with the pope and that make up the "Catholic Church"? There are Roman Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, and many many more.

[Charles Sloan]

Define "they"

Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God. That would be the "they" I am referring to. Submitting to the word of man as an equivalent to the Word of God is a very dangerous and inevitably disastrous practice and belief.

[John 1:1]

he Church under the Roman pontiff ---

This is where I say reform is happening, the pontiff is losing control and it's woinderful, Priests ex-communicated rearing families and starting their own branches, really getting down to the basics here, away from the structure and doing alot of good for the community instead of it's recently dark past.  Thinks are reforming guys and doing so in a big way.

Click on my signature, this is almost in live chat already, might as well go all out in this arena if you opt to continue on this tangent.