I Love My Jewish Mother

[John 1:1]

Define "they"

Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God. That would be the "they" I am referring to. Submitting to the word of man as an equivalent to the Word of God is a very dangerous and inevitably disastrous practice and belief.

Agreed, unless the holy spirit defines what a man is saying as being true and in line with his word.

[Charles Sloan]

...The Church under the Roman pontiff is the Roman Church. Thats all I am saying. No harm intended.

And again, the Roman Rite is just one of the many rites that constitute the community of churches that are in union with the pope and that make up the "Catholic Church"? There are Roman Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, and many many more.

Roman Catholic Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Roman Catholic Church, often referred to as the Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians and one sixth of the world's population. It is made up of one Western or Latin and 22 Eastern Catholic autonomous particular churches, and divided into 2,782 jurisdictional areas around the world. These churches look to the Bishop of Rome (commonly called the pope), either alone or together with the College of Bishops, as their highest visible authority in matters of faith, morals, and church governance. The reigning pope is Pope Benedict XVI. The church community consists of the ordained ministries of bishops, priests, and deacons; and the laity, nuns, friars, and monks of whom only monks or friars who serve as priests are ordained.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic

[Catholic Crusader]

....Submitting to the word of man as an equivalent to the Word of God is a very dangerous and inevitably disastrous practice and belief.

Now is a good time for you to remember that YOU are a man, and when you read the Bible and figure things out for yourself you are submitting to the word of a man too: YOURSELF. The difference between you and me is that I am not arrogant enough to believe MY personal interpretations are better than the 2000 year old mind of the Church. In the end, which "man's" interpretation are you going to submit to: YOU, or those thst CHRSIT LEFT IN CHARGE OF HIS CHURCH? In short, are YOU your OWN POPE or is the POPE the pope? Becuase if you believe the Holy Spirit guides you when you interpret the scriptures, you are giving yoursef that which say it is impossible for the pope to have.

[Catholic Crusader]

Roman Catholic Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..............

So now Wikipedia is the end-all of knowledge? Have you ever considered that Wikipedia is WRONG, since every Tom, Dick, and Luther can get in and edit it? Man, you guys will stoop to anything to justify disrespecting your brothers in Christ.

[Charles Sloan]

....Submitting to the word of man as an equivalent to the Word of God is a very dangerous and inevitably disastrous practice and belief.

Noe is a good time to remember that YOU are a man, and when you read the Bible and figure things out for yourself you are submitting to the word of a man too: YOURSELF. The difference between you and me is that I am not arrogant enough to believe MY personal interpretations are better than the 2000 year old mind of the Church. In the end, which "man's" interpretation are you going to submit to: YOU, or those thst CHRSIT LEFT IN CHARGE OF HIS CHURCH? In short, are YOU your OWN POPE or is the POPE the pope? Becuase if you believe the Holy Spirit guides you when you interpret the scriptures, you are giving yoursef that which say it is impossible for the pope to have.

I don't need a pope, I have a bishop and shepherd of my soul. (cf. 1Pe 2:25)

Besides, why are people involved in sects like this always trying to make the Bible into some mysterious esoteric book that only the religious elite can understand. The Bible can be easily understood by those who are saved and given the spirit of dicernment. But that same spirit is not going to lead me to start creating new and reprehensible doctrines and make them equal to Scripture.

[Charles Sloan]

Roman Catholic Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..............

So now Wikipedia is the end-all of knowledge? Have you ever considered that Wikipedia is WRONG, since every Tom, Dick, and Luther can get in and edit it? Man, you guys will stoop to anything to justify disrespecting your brothers in Christ.

I never said it was the end of all knowledge.

How is posting something that disagrees with you become disrespect?

[Catholic Crusader]

..Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God....

Err.. ..that would be JESUS. "Catechesis" is Greek for "teaching", and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise. I dont recall Him telling anyone to write a book.

The Catechism is the result of Christs command to teach. The Catechism teaches what God's word means (something you are obviously in dire need of). The Magisterium is the "teching office" of the Church. As for traditions, Paul said to stand firm and hold to the traditions which we were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

[Tantor]

....Submitting to the word of man as an equivalent to the Word of God is a very dangerous and inevitably disastrous practice and belief.

Now is a good time for you to remember that YOU are a man, and when you read the Bible and figure things out for yourself you are submitting to the word of a man too: YOURSELF. The difference between you and me is that I am not arrogant enough to believe MY personal interpretations are better than the 2000 year old mind of the Church. In the end, which "man's" interpretation are you going to submit to: YOU, or those thst CHRSIT LEFT IN CHARGE OF HIS CHURCH? In short, are YOU your OWN POPE or is the POPE the pope? Becuase if you believe the Holy Spirit guides you when you interpret the scriptures, you are giving yoursef that which say it is impossible for the pope to have.

Well, the disciples did not leave the bishop of Rome in charge of things... so there goes your logic right out the window.

We have writings from men whom the Roman Catholic church claim as their church fathers treating the bishop of Rome just like they treated the plurality of bishops at the time..  bishops are equals.

There is a reason why my great grandfather, grand father and father all believed that the Pope in Rome is nothing more then a tool for the anti-christ to come.

[Catholic Crusader]

How is posting something that disagrees with you become disrespect?

Because I told you what we are called, and you tried to use Wikipedia as an excuse to call us something we do not like being called. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I am.

[Tantor]

No.. you are nothing more then posturing.

You are a follower of the Bishop of Rome... therefore you are Roman Catholic.

I am a Catholic.. all christians are Catholic... but I will let myself be burned at the stake before I will acknowledge that that imposter in Rome is the head of all Christians.

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, the disciples did not leave the bishop of Rome in charge of things... so there goes your logic right out the window.....

Now THERE is a thought totally molded by 21st century democracy thinking. CHRIST chose who was in charge, not the disciples. CHRIST IS KING, and He placed Peter in charge as His Prime Minister. The disciples decided nothing. It is CHRIST who commands, and we who obey.

[Charles Sloan]

How is posting something that disagrees with you become disrespect?

Because I told you what we are called, and you tried to use Wikipedia as an excuse to call us something we do not like being called. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I am.

So now you are the end of all knowledge?

Forgive me if I find other sources alittle more credible than you.

[Charles Sloan]

..Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God....

Err.. ..that would be JESUS. "Catechesis" is Greek for "teaching", and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise. I dont recall Him telling anyone to write a book.

The Catechism is the result of Christs command to teach. The Catechism teaches what God's word means (something you are obviously in dire need of). The Magisterium is the "teching office" of the Church. As for traditions, Paul said to stand firm and hold to the traditions which we were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

The Catechism is not the result of Christs command, but of the Council of Trent in 1566.

[Catholic Crusader]

No.. you are nothing more then posturing. You are a follower of the Bishop of Rome... therefore you are Roman Catholic....

I am a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AS IS THE POPE. I'm nor posturing, I am shining a light on your attempt to deceive.

I am a Catholic.. all christians are Catholic... but I will let myself be burned at the stake before I will acknowledge that that imposter in Rome is the head of all Christians.

Promise?

[Catholic Crusader]

..Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God....

Err.. ..that would be JESUS. "Catechesis" is Greek for "teaching", and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise. I dont recall Him telling anyone to write a book.

The Catechism is the result of Christs command to teach. The Catechism teaches what God's word means (something you are obviously in dire need of). The Magisterium is the "teching office" of the Church. As for traditions, Paul said to stand firm and hold to the traditions which we were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

The Catechism is not the result of Christs command, but of the Council of Trent in 1566.

I said "Catechesis is Greek for 'teaching', and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise.".Can't you read? You quoted me, and you didn't even read what you quoted. There were Catechism before Trent. And the current Catechism is based on the light that shown from Vatican II.

I'm done with you. You have no clue what you are saying. Your like Jack Chick's recording machine or something: Ears closed, and paroting misinformation.

[Charles Sloan]

..Those who espouse the Cathecism, Magisterium and Church doctrines and traditions of equal Authority to the Word of God....

Err.. ..that would be JESUS. "Catechesis" is Greek for "teaching", and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise. I dont recall Him telling anyone to write a book.

The Catechism is the result of Christs command to teach. The Catechism teaches what God's word means (something you are obviously in dire need of). The Magisterium is the "teching office" of the Church. As for traditions, Paul said to stand firm and hold to the traditions which we were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

The Catechism is not the result of Christs command, but of the Council of Trent in 1566.

I said "Catechesis is Greek for 'teaching', and Jesus commanded me to teach AND baptise.".Can't you read? You quoted me, and you didn't even read what you quoted. There were Catechism before Trent. And the current Catechism is based on the light that shown from Vatican II.

I'm done with you. You have no clue what you are saying. Your like Jack Chick's recording machine or something: Ears closed, and paroting misinformation.

Be rude if you wish, just dont keep condemning people for doing the same to you.

I understand what your saying, but thats not the Catechism I was talking about. I am talking about the current Catechism espoused by the Roman Church, not the teachings found in the Scriptures. But call me what you wish, and I bid you farewell.

[Catholic Crusader]

CC, I can undertand your frustration.  My postings have decreased on these threads due to the atmophere that is often created.  I have already been told that I have been brainwashed, etc (see the thread on Purgatory).  All you can do is present what Catholics actually believe and move on.  People will believe what they want to believe.

I will say my peace one more time for anyone who truly wishes to understand what I believe, and then I shall move on away from the mean-spiritedness of this thread. Again, I will start by asking two questions:

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is "specifically

[Tantor]

No.. you are nothing more then posturing. You are a follower of the Bishop of Rome... therefore you are Roman Catholic....

I am a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AS IS THE POPE. I'm nor posturing, I am shining a light on your attempt to deceive.

I am a Catholic.. all christians are Catholic... but I will let myself be burned at the stake before I will acknowledge that that imposter in Rome is the head of all Christians.

Promise?

Absolutely.

FYI, praying is a form of WORSHIP.. thus praying to Mary or any other saint amounts to worshiping someone other then God.

God is a jealous God.. he does not share the worship of his creation....

Praying to anyone other then God amounts to Idolotry and a breaking of one of God's commandments.

[rezar]

I love my Jewish mother, who my Lord and Savior gave to me:


John 19:26-27: When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.


I am the disciple Jesus loves - we all are. Do we take our mother into our home? I know my mother prays for me when I ask her to. Do you know she loves you and prays for you too?

I'm not of the Catholic denomination bc I don't believe this way about Mary & a bunch of other beliefs by Catholics, but I think that is fine if you choose to pray to her in heaven.

That's probably the only concept we share, is that she is in heaven right now.

I'm a die-hard preterist. I don't have a Jewish mother in heaven that I ask to pray for me & the family. But I sure have a mother there who's probably been pulling for me all these years. I don't think I ask her directly to pray for me though. I think we pray in the Holy Spirit to Jesus/God, as He is the only one who hears our prayers & is the only one who communicates with us through the Spirit.
I think the exception are our guardian angels though.
I once was going through some intense spiritual warfare, & in the middle of it, I audibly heard Michael announce to me that he was there. Maybe it was Jesus' voice, maybe it was Michael the archangel. And maybe I was just plain crazy, but it all fit in very well when I was in the throes of that spiritual battle.
Well, it could have been the Angel bc the enemy was defeated at that point. So, good news, I was free again. And sane, bc that surely was intense & weird!

[Dave...]

This game could go back and forth all day long. This is what we mean...no this is what you mean...

I'll tell you what, quote the Catholic authority, the pope, and then you will know what they mean.

Try this for starters.

1.  Pope Benedict XV, in 1918 - "Mary suffered with Christ and nearly died with Him when He died, thus she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ.

[Catholic Crusader]

This game could go back and forth all day long. This is what we mean...no this is what you mean...
I'll tell you what, quote the Catholic authority, the pope, and then you will know what they mean.
Try this for starters.
1.  Pope Benedict XV, in 1918 - "Mary suffered with Christ and nearly died with Him when He died, thus she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ.

[broach972]

This game could go back and forth all day long. This is what we mean...no this is what you mean...
I'll tell you what, quote the Catholic authority, the pope, and then you will know what they mean.
Try this for starters.
1.  Pope Benedict XV, in 1918 - "Mary suffered with Christ and nearly died with Him when He died, thus she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ.

[Tantor]

969
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

Good enough for you?

FYI.. never read so much blasphemy in my entire life as that catechism.

[Charles Sloan]

not to mention not including the context in which these quotes were written...

Context is not sufficient to dilute error.

[Jimbob]

Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS  24, 1891, 196.

... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

[broach972]

Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS  24, 1891, 196.

... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

You left out some things...please continue....

[broach972]

not to mention not including the context in which these quotes were written...

Context is not sufficient to dilute error.

On the contrary, context is very important.

[Jimbob]

Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS  24, 1891, 196.

... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

You left out some things...please continue....

No, I didn't.  If you have a problem with the quote, take it up with EWTN.

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya4a.htm

[broach972]

Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS  24, 1891, 196.

... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

You left out some things...please continue....

No, I didn't.  If you have a problem with the quote, take it up with EWTN.

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya4a.htm

I have no problem with the quote, but you left some things out...please continue...   

[Catholic Crusader]

969
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

Good enough for you?

Yup. Its good enough for me. And it is all true. The key here is "...in the order of grace". By grace, if I bring a person to the Word and to Christ, I have assisted in a small way in their salvation. That does not make me equal to The Savior. And, if by her prayers, Mary assists in mediation - as we all can by our prayers too - that does not make her (or us) equal to the One Mediator. Not hard to figure out

[Jimbob]

Broach, I gave you the title of the document, if you care to read it in its entirety, knock yourself out.  As for me, that statement is quite clear, and hardly ambiguous at all.

[broach972]

I gave you the title of the document, if you care to read it in its entirety, knock yourself out.  As for me, that statement is quite clear, and hardly ambiguous at all.

Ohhhhhh....I thought you had read the entire encyclical.....that explains alot, thank you.     

[Charles Sloan]

Broach, I gave you the title of the document, if you care to read it in its entirety, knock yourself out.  As for me, that statement is quite clear, and hardly ambiguous at all.

That was my point, context does not dilute error.

[Tantor]

Mary can't hear you, cant see what is going down here, and certainly cannot mediate for us..

And its not bigotry... Roman Catholics are not getting into heaven... period. (and I am sure of this as much as I am sure of anything else..).. even the mention of the rites of the pagan catholic church cause me to vomit a little each time I am confronted with them.

And I feel sorry for you.. because you have been led so far astray by MEN.

[broach972]

Mary can't hear you, cant see what is going down here, and certainly cannot mediate for us..

And its not bigotry... Roman Catholics are not getting into heaven... period. (and I am sure of this as much as I am sure of anything else..).. even the mention of the rites of the pagan catholic church cause me to vomit a little each time I am confronted with them.

And I feel sorry for you.. because you have been led so far astray by MEN.

You will be in my prayers....God bless.