I Love My Jewish Mother

[Catholic Crusader]

I love my Jewish mother, who my Lord and Savior gave to me:


John 19:26-27: When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.


I am the disciple Jesus loves - we all are. Do we take our mother into our home? I know my mother prays for me when I ask her to. Do you know she loves you and prays for you too?

[Charles Sloan]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

[janine]

No, I don't know that any dead person prays for me.  They may -- but I have no way  to know that they are even aware of me.

However, I know One person who has gone through death and resurrection and who enjoys defending me 

[Catholic Crusader]

No, I don't know that any dead person prays for me.

Do you think people in heaven are dead?

[Catholic Crusader]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

I'm talking about love and prayer. Thank you.

[Charles Sloan]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

I'm talking about love and prayer. Thank you.

But isn't that something you call her while you venerate and pray to her effigy? (cf. Exd 20:4-5, Deu 4:16)

[Catholic Crusader]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

I'm talking about love and prayer. Thank you.

But isn't that something you call her while you venerate and pray to her effigy? (cf. Exd 20:4-5, Deu 4:16)

You really do love the old stereotypes don't you. We don't pray to "effigys". Feel free to start a thread on the Biblical basis for Mary's queenship. I would be glad to educate you. But I am not going to derail this thread by biting into your baits.

I asked a simple question: Do the disciples who Jesus loves take Mary into their homes as their own?

I love my Jewish mother, who my Lord and Savior gave to me:


John 19:26-27: When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.


I am the disciple Jesus loves - we all are. Do we take our mother into our home? I know my mother prays for me when I ask her to. Do you know she loves you and prays for you too?

[Charles Sloan]

I asked a simple question: Do the disciples who Jesus loves take Mary into their homes as their own?

No, that disciple whom Jesus loved took Mary unto his own home. (cf. Jhn 19:27)

What your posing is eisegesis to justify marianism.

[John 1:1]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

I'm talking about love and prayer. Thank you.

But isn't that something you call her while you venerate and pray to her effigy? (cf. Exd 20:4-5, Deu 4:16)

You really do love the old stereotypes don't you. We don't pray to "effigys". Feel free to start a thread on the Biblical basis for Mary's queenship. I would be glad to educate you. But I am not going to derail this thread by biting into your baits.

I asked a simple question: Do the disciples who Jesus loves take Mary into their homes as their own?

I love my Jewish mother, who my Lord and Savior gave to me:


John 19:26-27: When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.


I am the disciple Jesus loves - we all are. Do we take our mother into our home? I know my mother prays for me when I ask her to. Do you know she loves you and prays for you too?

I like to feel that myself and many Catholics here have dispelled the old stereotypes a while ago, we''ve had some debate in this matter, you should read some of the old threads in regards to praying to saints and Mary herself, basically saying, they are praying for us, just as we pray for each other here on earth.

This answer that you are looking for likely won't be found here, since the context is having you trying to pursuade non catholics to believe into more catholic type of thinking in regards to the reverence of Mary.  I'll put her in the context, which might answer your question best and still be plausable by non catholics as this.  Have you ever had an elderly woman that all of the  people in the community call grandma, someone they can all rely upon, in a way, a mother to all.  I like to put this into that perspective, since I feel it honors her and brings her closer to human understanding and fellowship with her, rather then venerate here as a diety placed on a pedistle, similar to a diety figure.

Just FYI, I was raised catholic, yet I support and back all mainstream denominations in an equal setting.  Just to give you an idea of personal perspective here, being able to see and hopefully help unify both sides.

[kensington]

No, I don't know that any dead person prays for me.

Do you think people in heaven are dead?

Mary is not in Heaven yet, no one who died after Christ ascended is, they are waiting the Lords return like every one else. Mary is in the grave, waiting for the resurection.

[kensington]

Besides, I think there is a big difference in Jesus charging his closest disciple to help care for His earthly mother after His death and then that being turned into her being the mother of all Christians...

I am a child of God... Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Jesus is seated at the right hand of the father interceding for me. God has no wife, the body of Christ has no mother.  We are His bride. Mary is my sister, not my mother. He was her savior too... she even said so.

Jesus prays for me, I don't need Mary or any saint to do that... why would I? Not when God is on the throne and my interceder is seated right next to Him. Mary has no more influence to pray for me than I do. I can go directly to Jesus myself. By His word.

Mary nor any other person who Christ died for can do anything for me that I cannot do for myself when it comes to praying.  She has no earthly concerns. She is not omnipotent, she cannot be all places or hear all things... Only Jesus as God can do that. Mary is a human who died and is going to Heaven someday, like the rest of the saved ones. That is all.  She created nothing. She spoke nothing into being.

And I never called someone in the neighborhood "gramma'... I had my own gramma, that honor goes to my real gramma and my real mother.  I call my dad, dad. God is my Father. No man is "father" for me either... no priest or anyone who is or was saved.

[John 1:1]

No, I don't know that any dead person prays for me.

Do you think people in heaven are dead?

Mary is not in Heaven yet, no one who died after Christ ascended is, they are waiting the Lords return like every one else. Mary is in the grave, waiting for the resurection.

Clearly you and I differ on this subject quite clearly.  Once Christ ressurected, the people that died before him that were worthy were allowed to go to heaven because of his sacrifice, they had to wait on him to come to this life and existance and to make the final sacrifice, but afterwards, they and all that died after him are now allowed to enter heaven.

To negate that would negate the new covenant, to negate his sacrifice, and to negate the purpose for grace in the first place.  Our faith should not be buried in some grave, where we gotta still wait on certain things to happen to finally gain admitance to heaven, that's defeating the purpose of everything we have learned, for we are now dust when we return to the earth, nothing more distinquisthed between a corpose that has decayed and became part of the earth as a common piece of mulch at that point.  Why would God force his children to delay knowing full well, time is irrelavent in his mind, what good, what purpose would it serve on any level at all?

Remember when Jeus was dying on the cross and one of the criminals rebuked the other for harrassing him?  Remember him saying that he would meet him in his fathers house that very day?  That doesn't mean, the guy has to wait, it means, after he's dead, he lives again immediately, no delay.

[kensington]

Not until the resurection will anyone, who died after Christ, including Mary, be body and soul in Heaven.  She cannot and does not act on our part.

If you read the passage about being surrounded by a great cloud of witness's ... they are witnesses to the faith. Not participants in our faith.  They, nor she has any part what so ever in salvation, prayer, answering prayer or intervening on our behalf. There is one God, one Son and one Holy Spirit, everyone else is just waiting in His presence... no one is doing anything for us or with us.  That is another lie.

[kensington]

BTW... shouldn't this be in the Apologetics forum or at least the Theology forum... since the Marian doctrine is a doctrine of Religion pertaining to the Catholic religion and the discussion of it falls under theology? ...

The worship and lifting up Mary as mother doesn't pertain to all of us generally speaking, it pertains to Catholics.  I have no "mother" of my Christianity... or Mother of Heaven...

[kensington]

The Catholic church says, she is the mediator and dispenser of all graces. Since we are saved by grace, and she is supposed to be the mediator and dispenser of all graces, then Catholicism is indirectly claiming she is necessary for our personal salvation.

Furthermore, the epitome of the Roman Catholic Gospel is the Rosary prayer, according to Catholicism. When such is recited, Mary is openly proclaimed to be our life, sweetness and hope. Such a message is opposed to the salvation truth that Jesus is our life, sweetness and hope. Moreover, the real gospel does not describe Mary in that manner. In fact, Mary has no mention at all in the real gospel of salvation. Just Jesus alone. See 1 Cor. 15:1-8.

[John 1:1]

You are referencing a Catholic church that I do not belong to, nor was taught what you discuss, don't put me in that same context at all.  I guess some oddball gave you some rhetoric on this subject, it's false, believe me on all counts.  I agree, Christ is the only one that we go to for salvation and only through him are we saved through grace.  Anything added onto this is null and void in God's eyes.  Mary should not be discounted as being simply a vessle, which is the bone of contention between Catholics and non catholics, this is the point of how this discussion is coming into play.  The same thing would be in line with the other Mary equally as any of the desciples. 

[kensington]

I made a statement, it was not to you. Or about you. The "oddball" you refer to would be my husband of 22 years who was born into a Catholic family, who went to all Catholic Schools through High School, and considered seminary to become a priest.  I believe him. You know, sometimes taking discussion personal gets you into traps... I don't appreciate my husband being called an oddball... but since I was not talking to you or about you, I guess I can't take that comment personally, I just chalk it up to ignorance of the situation. 

I know that the Marian doctrine and Mary worship has even been as a split within the Catholic Church. But, I have witnessed with my own eyes people who do worship Mary, who believe she is part of the God head, and who will tell you that she is part of redemption for us.  Yes, I run across those who say its not truth, and if Catholics believe it, they are believing something false... and again I say to them... Tell your Catholic brothers and sisters that. Help them... go to them and tell them the truth. Why get upset with the non Catholic for knowing the truth when there are those who are doing this in the church, and you sit and let them go on with the error.

Rather than try to convert us to lifting Mary up with you... go teach those who lift her up higher than she is the truth.  Don't tell me the doctrine is false, I already know that... share that with those in your church who are deceived and set them free!

[John 1:1]

This is what you want to hear, all catholics on all levels revere Mary as our patron and saint through salvation, that without her, we are absolutely lost, and that well all must bow down, create statues of her and we are now Catholics in the true sense in your mind.  Can I add more onto this, is there more I should turn my cheek to get hit upon here?

Hubbie or not his ideal is NOT the Catholic perspective on any means, oddball or not, this does NOT represent the Catholics, to say so misrepresents them, and I'm finding more and more, I mean "US" now a days in that context since I'm leaning towards that side of the spectrum. Waaah.. hehe.

Anyway, are we still friends here, can we share in the gospel and stop playing rotten brats argueing dogma and demoninational crapola...... ?

Peace, Brian

[Catholic Crusader]

Mary is not in Heaven yet, no one who died after Christ ascended is, they are waiting the Lords return like every one else. Mary is in the grave, waiting for the resurection.

Ahhh, this grave thing is a teaching I have always failed to understand. I don't believe it, mid you, but I would like to understand it. I don't see how it is possible for pure "spirit" to sleep. Sleep as something done by creatures in the created world, a neccessity of our corporeal bodies. But when you pass from the world and you are spirit, theologically speaking, spirit cannot sleep. Why do ypu think they can?

[Catholic Crusader]

Besides, I think there is a big difference in Jesus charging his closest disciple to help care for His earthly mother after His death and then that being turned into her being the mother of all Christians...

I find it odd that usually protestants think that scripture speaks to all of us. I have often heard people say "we ALL have the keys" even though the keys were handed to Peter. But in this case, when I say "we are all the disciple Jesus loves", you reduce down to just the one person in that verse.

Jesus prays for me, I don't need Mary or any saint to do that... why would I?

Why would you ask any friend to pray for you? Answer that question and you will answer your own

[Catholic Crusader]

BTW... shouldn't this be in the Apologetics forum or at least the Theology forum... since the Marian doctrine is a doctrine of Religion pertaining to the Catholic religion and the discussion of it falls under theology? ...

I didnt know that. Sorry

The worship and lifting up Mary as mother doesn't pertain to all of us generally speaking, it pertains to Catholics.  I have no "mother" of my Christianity... or Mother of Heaven...

Whoa there buddy: The Traditional Anglicans, the Eastern Orthodox, the Coptics, and many more, together with Catholics, ALL seek the intercession of the saints - and that comes to 80% of ALL Christians. So you are WAY wrong by saying its a "Catholic" thing.

And WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY! Asking someone to pray for you is not worship. I don't know why people keep saying that like a broken record.

I will ask a moderator to move the thread though.

[kensington]

If any of that made any sense to me, I'd be concerned. It doesn't. I NEVER said all Catholics, but in fact I said the Marian doctrine is even a split within the church.  I still ask, that if that doctrine doesn't represent the whole of the church, then why isn't the ones who know the truth trying to help the ones who seem to be mislead.

You cannot say I have not heard what I have heard. Being related to many Catholics I am called on often to attend their mass and to listen to their pulpits and teachings... you are mistaken if you think this teaching of Mary is not being taught in the pulpits of the Catholic Church. For it is... I am a witness to it myself. 

Ludwig Ott wrote of Mary...   "Mary's right to reign as Queen of Heaven is a consequence of her divine motherhood.

[Catholic Crusader]

Mary is queen of heaven. In Jewish culture, the mother of the King was always the queen. The word used was "Gabirah" - "Great Lady". Read about Solomon and Bathsheeba. But this thread is not about that. But you can look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WwjFXw2yE0

[kensington]

Mary is queen of heaven. In Jewish culture, the mother of the King was always the queen. The word used was "Gabirah" - "Great Lady". Read about Solomon and Bathsheeba. But this thread is not about that. But you can look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WwjFXw2yE0

Heaven has no Queen... Just because the Jews used to call the mother of a king the queen does not mean that God Himself meant for that to be so in His Kingdom... in His Kingdom, there is "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"... no queen.

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven, and the Jews nor anyone else will be making up the rules for Heaven, only God. The Jews also say that Jesus is not the Messiah... are you going to go with that one too?

[kensington]

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son for she is the mighty mother of God.

[Serenity432001]

Don't you people also call her the queen of heaven? (cf. Jer 7:18)

I'm talking about love and prayer. Thank you.

But isn't that something you call her while you venerate and pray to her effigy? (cf. Exd 20:4-5, Deu 4:16)

You really do love the old stereotypes don't you. We don't pray to "effigys". Feel free to start a thread on the Biblical basis for Mary's queenship. I would be glad to educate you. But I am not going to derail this thread by biting into your baits.

I asked a simple question: Do the disciples who Jesus loves take Mary into their homes as their own?

I love my Jewish mother, who my Lord and Savior gave to me:


John 19:26-27: When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.


I am the disciple Jesus loves - we all are. Do we take our mother into our home? I know my mother prays for me when I ask her to. Do you know she loves you and prays for you too?

I like to feel that myself and many Catholics here have dispelled the old stereotypes a while ago, we''ve had some debate in this matter, you should read some of the old threads in regards to praying to saints and Mary herself, basically saying, they are praying for us, just as we pray for each other here on earth.

This answer that you are looking for likely won't be found here, since the context is having you trying to pursuade non catholics to believe into more catholic type of thinking in regards to the reverence of Mary.  I'll put her in the context, which might answer your question best and still be plausable by non catholics as this.  Have you ever had an elderly woman that all of the  people in the community call grandma, someone they can all rely upon, in a way, a mother to all.  I like to put this into that perspective, since I feel it honors her and brings her closer to human understanding and fellowship with her, rather then venerate here as a diety placed on a pedistle, similar to a diety figure.

Just FYI, I was raised catholic, yet I support and back all mainstream denominations in an equal setting.  Just to give you an idea of personal perspective here, being able to see and hopefully help unify both sides.

Very well said John 1:1   I appreciate you sharing this and respect your openness and desire for unity.

I'm not catholic but I do have much respect for Mary as I think most Christians do.  IMO, the big difference is the perfection thing, isn't it or I may be misinformed but do the Catholics see Mary the same as Jesus as far as perfection or possibly even higher?  I think that's the big thing we non-catholics disagree with.

[John 1:1]

Serenity, and Ken, by all means, under no circumstance does Mary replace, is exaulted over, or is in any way, on the same level of Christ to any degree, on any level.  No Catholic will tell you different, if they do, they are not representing the Church by any means.  I see where the debate and division is going here, what a complete misrepresentation of ceremony and prayer, no wonder we have so much division between denominations.  I guess I gotta clarify here, this is false teaching, false dogma, and what you were told was out right wrong, at least with what I've been brought up with. 

On no level, to any degree, throughout Catholic School, Mass, CCD or even my short venue as an alter boy has Mary been even remotely exaulted to any kind of status to possibly compete with Christ, the church is absolutely, on all accounts, in all it's center venerating Christ as it's primary focus, all of the rest, be it deciples, saints or angels, including Mary come far, far behind him as any kind of focus, and fully knowing, he is the way, the truth and the light unabated.  This is what I have been taught, shown and revealed to me on all mainstream accounts here.

[kensington]

The late Pope John Paul also said of Mary in his book of her... "We can turn to the Blessed Virgin trustfully employing her aid in the awareness of the singular role entrusted to her by God, the role of cooperator in the redemption which she exercised throughout her life and in a special way at the foot of the cross.

[kensington]

In 2003 Pope John Paul said...   he "placed Europe in Mary's hands,"

WHY?  Isn't the hands of God good enough for Europe? Or anyone? 

(John 3:16) "For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believe on HIM shall have eternal life"

Nope... nothing there about Mary.  Not that I see.  It says that God did it, and His Son was the one He gave.

Mary could have not done any of it at all, or been known to anyone "EXCEPT" God... sent His Son. That is the bottom line.

[John 1:1]

hehe, I take the pope with a grain of salt, he's old, he's stuck in church politics, not very effective as an independent leader at all, don't take what he sais to be more then the rambling of an old man at this day and age.  In the past, sure they had alot more wisdom, the modern ones, I hold a great deal of scrutiny over and don't put a great deal of thought and energy into what they say and do.... They do NOT represent the modern Catholic church, in fact, they are getting in the way, true reform is happening in the Catholic church big time, and it's being done in defiance of the current structure, it's also being done towards a very positive and good way, glorifying God in the process in spite of the politics these hero priests are doing to break new ground and heal old wounds in this matter!

Yes, I know, not what you expect to hear from I guess, I'm "now" answering as a Catholic as.  Again, Mary and the saints are so far in the back seat to what the teachings of Christ are and of course himself as being, that these that think Catholics worship her above, or even with him, are mistaken.  If things have changed recently, I suppose I gotta go to mass and interrupt the priest in the middle of his sermon from time to time, hehe.

I see more now why there is such division between denominations, honestly, when you get past the cnn and worldly protraying of them/us the reality is far different, much more in line with mainstream protestant/non denominational thinking and beliefs folks.

Bottom line, the main focus has always been around Christ, the rest were only merely mentioned in worship at best, never any of them remained the centerpiece of it all, for the church is focused and derrived upon Christ.

I gave a personal invite onto these boards a firend of mine, he's a Catholic Priest, I hope he chimes in here, him and his buddie another priest friend of mine will help in this matter much more significantly then myself since they are vastly more educated along these matters.  Just giving you the heads up here.

Take particular note here though, I only am talking about the mainstream church, I cannot speak for those that branch off from it and do their own thing, I don't follow it that far, and technically, once they do their own thing, they are no longer part of the denomination.

[Serenity432001]

Thanks so much John for clearing that up.  I've often wondered if we(non-catholics) had misrepresented what the catholics actually believe about Mary so it's good to know that the Catholics do not have her above or equal to Jesus.  I have no problem at all with showing her a great amount of respect and admiration and apprecitation.  Also, look forward to your catholic priest friends input.  I like learning all I can.  Thanks again.

[kensington]

I don't think I have misinterpreted what has been said directly to me...

There is an apologetic who is speaking in the Churches, (catholic)... Gary something... who is teaching this Mary as co-redeemer doctrine. Which at one time did bring great concern between the two sides of the fence. Anyway, my sil has the man's CD's or tapes or what ever, and wanted us to listen to them, she wanted to gift them to us.. I declined.

When I said I was not interested, she said... "you know Mary is co-redeemer with Jesus Christ" and while I had just had a root canal, I was not high... I was in great pain, I plainly said... "NO SHE IS NOT.. Mary is not co-redeemer with Christ."

Her reply was a quite frustrated "To say that is blasphemy"...  I really didn't care to discuss it further, I know better, I went in the house and took my medicine for pain.  She was very insulted we would not listen to this apologetic teach us that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ. He spoke at her parish... and she believes it, and so do many in the Church.

And while its all well and good to say that the popes are old and outdated, the truth is that John Paul was beloved of the people and He swayed many catholics to Mary worship. They adored Him... Hey, I think he was very likable.  And by His own statements, He put Mary up to be worshipped.  He called the church to worship her.

I'm glad to hear that there are those who don't. But, I do not believe that is the whole of the Chruch, or the bottom line for their faithful.

Recently, when DH gramma passed away... The Rosary was said at her viewing... the prayers to Mary during the rosary out numbered the Lord's prayer by time and time again...  sadly.  It doesn't concern me, I don't think it means anything for gramma, I don't beleive she is in purgatory either. I was there the day she prayed with Billy Graham for salvation, right around her 90th birthday.  She lived to be 98, I'd say... she didn't leave the catholic church, nor did she lose any salvation... She did good.  Billy was right on time. God sent him right on time!!

[janine]

No, I don't know that any dead person prays for me.

Do you think people in heaven are dead?

Yes, and no.

I do not necessarily subscribe to the cut-and-dried idea that dead folk are sleeping/unaware/gravebound until Christ's return... But I can see the Scripture folks who believe that way stand upon to support the idea.

Nor do I necessarily subscribe to some variation on the opposite idea, that once we die it's all over and done for us and we are through with the Judgment and in Heaven with God as we will be for all eternity.  But, I do also see the Scripture some folks stand on who hold that view.

Not to mention the extra-Biblical traditions and philosophies people are tied into, often without analysis or study, when they state either position.

I see these ideas and I wonder -- Why does it matter? 

Did not Paul say "absent from the body = present with the Lord"?

Is not the disposition of our bodies, our souls, our spirits, our lives and our deaths, and our eternal destinies, all in the hands of the One?

So, yes, all the people who have died are dead.  Duh.

But, who says Time means anything after we are freed from this life?  Could it not be that there is no need for the dead = gravebound stance, because "absent from the body" does literally mean "present with the Lord"? 

If you don't draw some sort of dispensational line, calling for specific differences in the conditions of pre-Jesus and post-Jesus dead people... there were a couple of dead guys talking to Jesus at the Transfiguration, were there not?  They seemed pretty lively (and powerful and glorious and worthy of honor) to Peter.  And of course there is the "He is the God of the living" idea.  Abraham, Isaac and Jacob aren't dead, in the sense of being "no more".

So, anyway, I do have my opinions about whether or not people who have passed through that veil of Death can do anything for me.  There is only One who has done it and completed the process -- only One who has come to His resurrected condition, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Whether the rest are unconscious, unaware, unable to hear me, so much worm food until the Lord comes back -- or whether they can know what's going on with me and pray for me -- so what?  What can anyone do for me that is any more or any better than what the Messiah can?

On the other hand, I can ask you folks to pray for me, and know that you know I asked -- and I'd be grateful for the prayers, because I know prayer matters.  But, I have nothing indisputable to stand upon, from Scripture, that tells me that dead folks -- folks on the other side of the grave -- can hear me asking.

If you want to believe that they can hear you, fine, go on ahead.  Conversely, if you feel Scripture supports the idea that they cannot hear you, lovely.

But, I have to ask folks on either end of the spectrum, why and how does it matter?  In my daily life lived as a Christian, when it comes time to love and serve the Lord and the people around me, how does holding one position or the other make my daily life any different?

[John 1:1]

Ken, that's the past, and perhaps, the church did change a bit, but not when I was going to mass, nor would I coming back to mass find mary worship tolertable at all, I would very much speak up in the middle of it and tell them this is wrong, and likely, have more hands of applause then looks of contempt if I did so.  I'm simply not seeing it as being at all, and your friends CD or what ever tangent she was on, is not accepted, at least in my upbringing as being authentic.  All religions have their offshoots, some can be quite wild and got into la la land galore.  I only speak from what I've been taught and from the Catholics I've been around.

Daybreak, I too would be thrilled if these guys show up as well, I so look forward to their dialog in real time here, it will be cool if they do decide  to do so, and I know, they will get a very warm welcome here!

Janine, no need to rehash the past, we've already been down that road before no need to further explain your stance or yourself on this, you are good to go in my book, ok?

had to edit this thing:

Something that keeps welling up inside of me here, as we discuss this, I just keep thinking about hanging out with John Paul and us having a blast, laughing away and in general, smiles on both of our faces, in spite of our little differences.  I just feel, he was a warm, funny, nice, likable kind of guy and I feel that will show true if we meet again in the afterlife.

[Petals]

I honor Mary as the Mother of Jesus, but I don't worship her--any longer.  Raised Catholic, I prayed the rosary faithfully, went to mass almost daily, and once wanted to be a nun.  In my bedroom, I built a little shrine to Mary filled with statues and pictures of her, as well, where I burned candles or placed flowers. 

The parochial schools where I attended had everyone participate in the yearly ritual of the "May Crowning."  One person was selected from the class to have the honor of crowning a large statue of Mary with a wreath made from Queen Anne's Lace.  The girls all wore the same type of wreath on our heads as every student paraded around the church following a priest and altar boys and someone carrying a large statue of Mary.  We sang, "Oh Mary, we crown you with blossoms today, Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May..." 

I went to a public high school, graduated, and married a non-practicing Southern Baptist right after leaving the Catholic Church.  The doubts I had about many of their teachings for years was the reason.  My husband and I both became Episcopalians and soon afterwards were "born again." 

My sisters-in-law invited me to a prayer meeting held in a Catholic home (ironically), and it was instrumental in my receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.   There were people there of all denominations, but one thing divided us--the worship of Mary.  The leaders kept trying to convince the others of the very thing that Catholic Crusader is promoting, and the discussions never ended.  Former Catholics and non-Catholics couldn't quite understand how practicing Catholics could continue to pray to Mary.  It was quite puzzling, since we all receive the same Holy Spirit.  We all tried to discuss this calmly, but occasionally there were flare-ups.  No side could ever convince the other who was right.  I don't expect that to happen here on this forum, either. 

I, personally, gave up praying to Mary immediately after I read in the Bible where Jesus said, "I am THE Way, THE truth, and THE life.  No man cometh unto the Father but by me..."  That verse convinced me that Jesus was my lawyer and the only One necessary to petition the Father for me.  I didn't have to ask deceased saints, Mary, or anyone else to go to the Father to present my requests. 

Mary is to be honored because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, but is not to be placed above Him.  Jesus is the ONLY advocate we need in heaven to go to the Father on our behalf.