The Gospel and Phariseeism, Baptism, Law & Religion

[Bon Voyage]

When you boil down to it, the doctrine that Robert is peddling is not any different that those with an extreme works based mentality.

One argues upon what they don't do.
The other argues upon what one must do.

In the end, both are centered on that person, and not on Christ.

[Ek Pyros]

The sole purpose of the bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel.  It is a witness to Christ.  It is not your Christian Torah.  If you live by the law you will be judged by the law.

Once again, no one here has once mentioned living by the Law.   Stop the absurdity.

[James Rondon]

I know this is hard for you to accept but I am not in bondage to the Bible.  I am afraid that you are.

I know this is hard for you to accept but I am in bondage to the Christ of the Bible.  I am afraid that you are not.

Like I have said before the gospel interprets scripture.  Scripture does not interpret scripture.

I know what you have said, but you are not the authority. I know this is hard for you to accept.

The Gospel is revealed through the Scriptures (cf. 1 Cor. 15:1-4). And, according to the Scriptures themselves, and thus, God Himself, Scripture interprets Scripture (Isa. 28:10; cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17). 

The whole bible is about the gospel.  It is not about how you as a sinner can please God.

If you believe that you cannot please God, then you don't believe the Gospel (cf. 1 Thess. 2:4; Col. 1:10).

The gospel calls all things into question even the bible its self.

This statement comes not from Scripture, but from you... And, again, you are not the authority.

The sole purpose of the bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel.  It is a witness to Christ.  It is not your Christian Torah.  If you live by the law you will be judged by the law.

If you live against the law, you will be judged as lawless...

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (The word "iniquity" can also be translated as "lawlessness".)

[James Rondon]

When you boil down to it, the doctrine that Robert is peddling is not any different that those with an extreme works based mentality.

One argues upon what they don't do.
The other argues upon what one must do.

In the end, both are centered on that person, and not on Christ.

Agreed.

[Ek Pyros]

I know this is hard for you to accept but I am in bondage to the Christ of the Bible.  I am afraid that you are not.

As we should be:

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

[da525382]

The gospel calls all things into question even the bible its self.

The sole purpose of the bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel. 

Can you say "circular reasoning"?

[Bon Voyage]

The sole purpose of the Bible is the give glory to God.

[James Rondon]

The sole purpose of the Bible is the give glory to God.

Does the Bible even have a sole purpose? Or, does it have multiple purposes?

[da525382]

It seems to me that the whole purpose of creation itself is to give glory to God.

[Bon Voyage]

The sole purpose of the Bible is the give glory to God.

Does the Bible even have a sole purpose? Or, does it have multiple purposes?

Multiple things fall under that.

[James Rondon]

The sole purpose of the Bible is the give glory to God.

Does the Bible even have a sole purpose? Or, does it have multiple purposes?

Multiple things fall under that.

True. In the same token, one might also say that the "sole purpose" of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ. Multiple things fall under the revelation of Him, including the glory of God.

[zoonance]

zoonance

Work: 1. Continued exertion or activity, whether physical or mental, directed to some end or purpose; labor.

  2: The acts obligations, etc. that one does or undertakes in return for something of value, as money.

I don't think you understand the definition of work.

You do make me smile anyway.

[Robert Pate]

The Law

Gary said that the sole purpose of the Bible is to give glory to God.

Nothing gives more glory to God than the work and person of Jesus Christ.  Christ is the express image of God.  All that we will ever know about God is in Jesus Christ.

If you took all of the commandments and ordinances in the Old Testament as well as all of the commandments in the New Testament You would probably come up with over 600 laws and rules for Holy living.  This is basically what the Pharisees did. We must concur that anything in the Bible that tells us to do something is law.

Does Christ want us to live by law and rules?  Is it possible to keep the law?  Can we live a life pleasing to God by obeying the scriptures?  The answer in No.

The reason that Christ fulfilled the law for us and took us out from under it is because it condemns us. No one can keep the law.  Paul said, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21. What Paul said was, obeying religious instructions is not going to make you righteous. In Galatians 3:2 Paul ask this question, Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith? (the gospel)

So it is quite evident that the Holy Spirit is not in keeping the law or obeying scripture.

Christians are called to live by the Spirit of Christ and not by religious instructions.  If you need religious instructions to live the Christian life then you are living it in the flesh.  Christians that are living by Spirit are those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust. They are obedient to Christ not because they are told to (religious instructions) but because they want to be obedient. They walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul said in Galatians 3:10  "For as many as are under the works of the law (religious instructions) are under the curse. verse 11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident that the just shall live by faith."

[Bonnie]

If you took all of the commandments and ordinances in the Old Testament as well as all of the commandments in the New Testament You would probably come up with over 600 laws and rules for Holy living.  This is basically what the Pharisees did. We must concur that anything in the Bible that tells us to do something is law.

Robert, I'm replying to your quote above.
Don't you realize that living under the law of the OT and its ordinances (as the Pharisees did) is NOT the same thing as keeping the commandments and ordinances of the NT.

As far as the Pharisees go they did not love God.  The law was good and wasn't their entire problem.  They were insincere legalised.

[Charles Sloan]

I was going to comment on this yesterday, but I got side tracked.

There is nothing that you can do to make Jesus Lord.

So theres nothing I can do to make Jesus Lord except:

All you can do is accept his Lordship and make him Lord of your life.

Make him Lord?

Does this seem like doublespeak to anyone else?

[Robert Pate]

Bonnie

I have heard that before.  They will usually say, "We are not under the law of Moses we are under the law of Christ."  To be under the law of Christ is the same as being under the law of Moses."  Since Christ is the fulfillment of the law of Moses he is the law of Moses." 

If you read the first five books of the Old Testament you will see that any thing that tells you to do something religious is law.

[James Rondon]

I was going to comment on this yesterday, but I got side tracked.

There is nothing that you can do to make Jesus Lord.

So theres nothing I can do to make Jesus Lord except:

All you can do is accept his Lordship and make him Lord of your life.

Make him Lord?

Does this seem like doublespeak to anyone else?

It doesn't seem like doublespeak... It is.

[Charles Sloan]

I was going to comment on this yesterday, but I got side tracked.

There is nothing that you can do to make Jesus Lord.

So theres nothing I can do to make Jesus Lord except:

All you can do is accept his Lordship and make him Lord of your life.

Make him Lord?

Does this seem like doublespeak to anyone else?

It doesn't seem like doublespeak... It is.

Not only that James, but you make him Lord of your life by simple acknowledgment of the gospel.

All you can do is accept his Lordship and make him Lord of your life.  You do that by acknowledging what he has done in his life, death and resurrection.

Not faith, not belief, not repentance, not anything that the Apostles preached  (cf. Acts 2:38, Act 3:19, Act 10:43, Act 16:31, Act 17:30, Act 20:21, Act 26:20) But that we make him Lord by merely a mental assent to the gospel, but not through obedience to the gospel. (cf. 2Th 1:8, 1Pe 4:17)

[bemark]

We dont make him Lord      He is Lord

We submit to his Lordship by freewill


Now there will come a day That every knee will bow and every tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord

[Bonnie]

Bonnie

I have heard that before.  They will usually say, "We are not under the law of Moses we are under the law of Christ."  To be under the law of Christ is the same as being under the law of Moses."  Since Christ is the fulfillment of the law of Moses he is the law of Moses." 

If you read the first five books of the Old Testament you will see that any thing that tells you to do something religious is law.

Robert, I feel very tired.  Think I'll go take a nap now.   

[Robert Pate]

Jesus is Lord,  You don't make him the Lord.  Whether you accept his Lordship or not he is still Lord.

[James Rondon]

Jesus is Lord,  You don't make him the Lord.

That's not what you said yesterday:

All you can do is accept his Lordship and make him Lord of your life.  You do that by acknowledging what he has done in his life, death and resurrection.

[Robert Pate]

James Rondon

Are you an attorney James?  You sure sound like one.

[James Rondon]

No. But I know how to read.

[bemark]

Luke 11


52 "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.

[James Rondon]

We can be all taken out of context

And we can all be taken in context...

[bemark]

Chomp Chomp 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Jesus does not want to be your boss.  He wants to be your friend.  The reason he took you out from under the law was so that he could be your friend.  Friends don't order each other around with laws and rules.  Because we are not under laws and rules we can serve him out of love and not because we are told to.  Are you not more pleased when your children obey you because they love you and want to please you.

Robert,

We do not seem to define "Lord" the same way.

Do me a favor.  Define "Lord" for me without using a Proper Noun to do so.  Please use the simplest terms and smallest words possible, so that I can understand you.  Then maybe we can use words that mean the same thing.

Thank you,

Jarrod

[broach972]

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Jesus does not want to be your boss.  He wants to be your friend.  The reason he took you out from under the law was so that he could be your friend.  Friends don't order each other around with laws and rules.  Because we are not under laws and rules we can serve him out of love and not because we are told to.  Are you not more pleased when your children obey you because they love you and want to please you.

Are you serious?

[Ek Pyros]

No. But I know how to read.

...

Perfect.

[Robert Pate]

James Rondon

Read this James, 

God has made Jesus Lord.  Acts 2:36,  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus, whom you Have crucified, both Lord and Christ."  The reason that God made Jesus Lord is because he over came sin. death and the devil.  He did this in our name and on our behalf.  So we recognize him as Lord.

On a more personal level, Because he has justified us, sanctified us, and redeemed us, 1st Corinthians 1:30 and sees us only in Christ as being perfect and complete in him.  We are now friends with Christ.  We do not have to work to earn his approval or friendship we have already been approved in Christ.  Jesus said to the disciples in John 15:15, "Henceforth I will not call you servants; because the servant does not know what his Lord is doing; but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my father I have made known to you."

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Jesus does not want to be your boss.  He wants to be your friend.  The reason he took you out from under the law was so that he could be your friend.  Friends don't order each other around with laws and rules.  Because we are not under laws and rules we can serve him out of love and not because we are told to.  Are you not more pleased when your children obey you because they love you and want to please you.

Robert,

We do not seem to define "Lord" the same way.

Do me a favor.  Define "Lord" for me without using a Proper Noun to do so.  Please use the simplest terms and smallest words possible, so that I can understand you.  Then maybe we can use words that mean the same thing.

Thank you,

Jarrod

[Robert Pate]

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

In heaven there will be no laws or rules.  There will be absolute freedom.  I doubt if we will refer to Jesus as Lord.  When you call someone Lord it means that you are in subjection to them or that they have the rule over you. I think that we will call him Father.

I have no scripture to make my point.  This is my own idea.  So don't send me a bunch of scripture to prove me wrong.

Keep in mind that those in Matthew 7 that were trying to be saved by works called Jesus Lord, Lord, and they were lost.  Jesus is your Lord only if you recognize him as the one who has dealt with your sins, over come the world and defeated the devil.  Other wise you are just like the Lord, Lord, didn't we... group that are trying to save themselves by their works or their obedience.

[Ek Pyros]

I have no scripture to make my point.  This is my own idea.  So don't send me a bunch of scripture to prove me wrong.

Then don't make a point anymore.  Verbum homo sub verbum dei.

[Robert Pate]

Ek Pyros

Sorry that you don't have the freedom to say something without trying to prove it.