Catholic Canons of Justification

[Harold]

Justification is by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.

This better not be copy righted I'm using it.

FTL

[CDHealy]

(I'm interested in how Sola Scriptura is self-contradictory.)

Scripture nowhere teaches us, nor gives us an example, nor commands us to rely on Scripture alone.

In fact, more to the point, we are commanded to follow the tradition that has been given to us--which includes the Scripture.

Alright, so it would appear that if justify is being used in the same way by both authors we would have a contradiction.  The former says faith apart from works, while the latter says works and not by faith alone.  So what about the example of Abraham?  Well, in Paul's Romans (chapter 4), Abraham is justified before circumcision (i.e., Genesis 15).  But James has him justified when he offers up Isaac; apparently not justified until Genesis 22.

The discrepancy dissolves (or resolves itself, if you will) when we understand the two meanings of "justify" in the Bible.  Borrowing from R.C. Sproul (don't worry, the commentary will be expounded fully):

The term justify may mean 1) to restore to a state of reconciliation with God those who stand under the judgment of His law or 2) to demonstrate or to vindicate.

Let's look at some evidence of this.  When Jesus says in Luke 7:35, "Wisdom is justified of all her children," does He mean that "wisdom is restored to fellowship with God and saved from His wrath"?  No.  Merely that wisdom is demonstrated or vindicated by her produce.  How do we spot wisdom?  By its result.  Likewise, how do we spot faith?  By its works (cf. James 2:17-18).

In Romans 3, Paul's use of justification is clear: he means it in the "ultimate theological sense."  But why do we differentiate between Paul's use and James'?  Besides the fact that to not do so would present a clear contradiction, we are right to do this because James has a different focus.  He establishes this in verse 14 (What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?).  The point he makes in chapter 2 is that faith without works is dead, and thus, not real faith at all.  It is not that works contribute to justification (as in, salvation), but that they justify faith.  There is no such thing as faith without works; genuine faith produces or involves good works.  What kind of faith is needed for salvation?  Faith alone (Paul).  And how is faith evidenced?  What is true faith?  Faith justified by works (James).  The claim to faith is justified--vindicated--when manifested by the fruit (works).  This is why James calls Abraham justified by his works.  That is, his faith--Genesis 15--is vindicated by his works--Genesis 22. 

James 2:22You see that faith was working with [Abraham's] works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Nope, you're off base here Fire.  It's not an equivocation of justification we need to examine, but two types of works.  You're close, but no cigar.

This is really why you (CDHealy) can give me no answer (as far as scripture goes) as to how much work one must perform to achieve heaven: works are justification (vindication) of faith, not one's status redemptionwise.  It is the faith that saves, but there is no such thing as faith without works.

Nope.  There is no contradiction whatsoever in my understanding of biblical justification.  See above.

[Tantor]

It's unfortunate that the RC Catholic church has invented it's own tradition over the centuries instead of holding fast to the tradition of the original apostles.

If they had held fast, your argument might hold weight... but since the catholic church so miserably failed in its duty to shepard the gospel and the meaning of the original apostles.. where is any sane christian to turn to?

[CDHealy]

Well, with a start like that, Tantor, I can see the beginnings of a bunch of open and respectful dialogue.

(Careful, your closedmindedness is showing.)

[Tantor]

Well, with a start like that, Tantor, I can see the beginnings of a bunch of open and respectful dialogue.

(Careful, your closedmindedness is showing.)

I would require a personal apology from the pope before I would desire to talk about the catholic religion.

[CDHealy]

QED

[broach972]

Well, with a start like that, Tantor, I can see the beginnings of a bunch of open and respectful dialogue.

(Careful, your closedmindedness is showing.)

Yea, Tantor is not the easiest person to talk to on these matters...

[Tantor]

Why?.. because I tell it like it is and dont really care if I offend?

[broach972]

I would require a personal apology from the pope before I would desire to talk about the catholic religion.

You must be kidding....and why should the Pope apologize to you?

[broach972]

Why?.. because I tell it like it is and dont really care if I offend?

No....

You aleady have your mind made up on a few things.  Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.  Your hatred of the Cathloic faith saturates your very being.  You simply cannot talk to someone like that.  But that is ok...I am sure you are a nice guy.

[Tantor]

Why?.. because I tell it like it is and dont really care if I offend?

No....

You aleady have your mind made up on a few things.  Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.  Your hatred of the Cathloic faith saturates your very being.  You simply cannot talk to someone like that.  But that is ok...I am sure you are a nice guy.

I dont really hate Catholic's anymore then say, Hindu's, Budists, Shintoists, Islamists, Mormons, Christian Scientists, etc... they all need the blood of Jesus Christ to be saved.  Catholic's are lost just like all he other false religions of the world.

[CDHealy]

Why?.. because I tell it like it is and dont really care if I offend?

Well, it's clear you don't care that you offend and hate.

But you are manifestly not telling it like it is but offering lies and deceptions.  An honest Christian who is unafraid of the truth would not do that.

[CDHealy]

Catholic's are lost just like all he other false religions of the world.

Especially the hate-filled ones.

[Tantor]

It's not hate... the scriptures tell us to stay away from those that teach false doctrine.. I'm just abiding by what Jesus and the Apostles told us to do.

[CDHealy]

Hey, rationalize it anyway you want to.  If you spread false and deceptive accusations and refuse to  honestly listen to those you disagree with, well if it ain't love, it's hate.

[CDHealy]

Oh, and of course, you have no proof that it's false doctrine.  At best, it's just that you disagree with it.  But then it's your interpretation you have to justify.

[Tantor]

My proof would come from Jesus and the disciples OWN words.. which you do not hold in high esteem.  So a discussion would be fruitless, since you believe all sorts of added on traditions of men.  i.e. the eucharist, priests, praying to saints, perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.

In the end its fruitless, because I believe what I can read, while you believe what you have been told to believe.

[CDHealy]

My proof would come from Jesus and the disciples OWN words.. which you do not hold in high esteem.  So a discussion would be fruitless, since you believe all sorts of added on traditions of men.  i.e. the eucharist, priests, praying to saints, perpetual virginity of Mary, etc.

In the end its fruitless, because I believe what I can read, while you believe what you have been told to believe.

Your utter disrespect and hate are proven by your own words.  Words, by the way which are lies and deceptions, and which, then, give some hint of your spiritual ancestry.

You don't know me from Adam, and you clearly have not examined or read anything that I have written, nor explored my blog site linked in my sig line.

When you start acting like a loving disciple of Jesus, perhaps people will listen to you instead of dismissing you for the hatemonger your words prove you to be.

I should have known better than to think these boards would have improved in the last year.  These things degenerate, and it definitely has here.

[Tantor]

I read some your blog... and it was very hard to keep from physically throwing up... honestly  when I read such things I really do come close to being physically ill. (and I am not exagerating).

It's like taking the bible and the pagan religions of old and sticking them in a blender and hitting the puree' button.

[James Rondon]

Justification is by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.

When discussing this matter a few years ago, I said the following regarding justification by faith, and the words of James in chapter 2 of his epistle:

As far as the latter part of that passage, someone else once said something of this nature when commenting on James and the matter of faith and works, "We are saved by grace through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." Considering the context of James chapter 2, one might also phrase it like this, "We are saved by grace through faith alone, but the faith that saves is not one of mere profession".

And that faith, of course, being faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. James 2:1).

[Ek Pyros]

Justification is by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.

This better not be copy righted I'm using it.

See Martin Luther, et al.

CDHealy - is that all you have to offer?  "We're talking about two different types of works."  Ok, elaborate, please.

[Ek Pyros]

Scripture nowhere teaches us, nor gives us an example, nor commands us to rely on Scripture alone.

In fact, more to the point, we are commanded to follow the tradition that has been given to us--which includes the Scripture.

Note Proverbs 30:5Every word of God is tested;
         He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
    6Do not add to His words
         Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

[kensington]

Oh, and of course, you have no proof that it's false doctrine. 

The BIBLE does that.... and you have not proved that Tantor has hate for anyone, I notice that it is a common tactic of the "Religious" person to accuse those who denounce their religion as hating.  That is not so.

You can have disdain for the practices without hating those who blindly follow it.  I don't hate any one Catholic... but... the teachings are false for salvation.  The praying, the statues, the priests, the Pope, the mass, confession, purgatory ... all contrived of men for control of people. Nothing to do with a free will salvation given as a gift by God.

[ConsideringCatholicism]

Oh, and of course, you have no proof that it's false doctrine. 

The BIBLE does that.... and you have not proved that Tantor has hate for anyone, I notice that it is a common tactic of the "Religious" person to accuse those who denounce their religion as hating.  That is not so.

You can have disdain for the practices without hating those who blindly follow it.  I don't hate any one Catholic... but... the teachings are false for salvation.  The praying, the statues, the priests, the Pope, the mass, confession, purgatory ... all contrived of men for control of people. Nothing to do with a free will salvation given as a gift by God.

I've only been here for a couple of days, and in that time period, I have spent most of time reading.  Kensington, have you noticed that a lot of people have had a problem with the way you deliver your message?  Is that ok with you?  You have been corrected many, many times regarding your ignorance associated with Catholicism, yet you persist in your lies and distortions regarding the RCC.  I am wondering why?   

Kensington is not the only person - just the person that reminds me of Ann Coulter the most.  It is sad to me that a board that claims to welcome all people who accept the Nicene Creed, yet allows members to attack people who are not in the Reformed tradition.

I think I have seen enough.  Thank you CD and the silent majority of decent Christians that have not chosen to attack. 

Please cancel my membership.

[ravenloreI]

Hi Ravenlorre here,

I am also disappointed with the current atmosphere of this site.  I have decided to move on.  Thanks to all who have made me feel welcome.

blessings

[trifecta]

ConsideringCatholicism and ravenlorre,

Sorry that you feel you must leave.  In my experience,
some Restoration Movement folk are very anti-
Catholic, so I can understand how you feel. 

One of the features of boards is that people speak
honestly and very directly.  Don't let it get you down.

Hope you learned some things from the boards here; I have.   

In Christ,

trifecta

[kensington]

Good grief... what is this... Considering ... you are going from topic to topic stalking me posting these same , EXACT SAME comments about me. I've not posted to you, I don't know you and you don't know me.

I believe this may be against a rule here.  I stated I do not hate Catholics, but I stand up for knowing that the Catholic doctrine is full of much that is false and even wrong by the word of GOD... you accused me of this in a topic I haven't even posted in since September... I have to ask... are you lurking or stalking?

You had to go looking to find posts of mine that far back... this is more than you just stumbling in here and noticing that I am a voice against the doctrines of Catholicism... this is a focused effort directed at me.  And now after this 3rd post... I'm reporting it.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Good grief... what is this... Considering ... you are going from topic to topic stalking me posting these same , EXACT SAME comments about me. I've not posted to you, I don't know you and you don't know me.

I believe this may be against a rule here.  I stated I do not hate Catholics, but I stand up for knowing that the Catholic doctrine is full of much that is false and even wrong by the word of GOD... you accused me of this in a topic I haven't even posted in since September... I have to ask... are you lurking or stalking?

You had to go looking to find posts of mine that far back... this is more than you just stumbling in here and noticing that I am a voice against the doctrines of Catholicism... this is a focused effort directed at me.  And now after this 3rd post... I'm reporting it.

Kensington

Don't let it get you down, that's how they work.

By anethematizing justification by faith, and requiring additional propitiatory works, Romanism despises the atonement of Christ; far from being a crime it is an obligation to cry out against it.

Ps 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.


CRP

[broach972]

Kensington

Don't let it get you down, that's how they work.

By anethematizing justification by faith, and requiring additional propitiatory works, Romanism despises the atonement of Christ; far from being a crime it is an obligation to cry out against it.

Ps 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.


CRP

Your comments are a disgrace to the faith and frankly demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith.  Unfortunately, you are not alone on this.  It is comments like these that are forcing people like Ravenlorre to leave.  I may not be far behind him.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Kensington

Don't let it get you down, that's how they work.

By anethematizing justification by faith, and requiring additional propitiatory works, Romanism despises the atonement of Christ; far from being a crime it is an obligation to cry out against it.

Ps 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.


CRP

Your comments are a disgrace to the faith and frankly demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith.  Unfortunately, you are not alone on this.  It is comments like these that are forcing people like Ravenlorre to leave.  I may not be far behind him.

Actually, the strange thing is that it is your comments that demonstrate your own lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith. You think it might actually save you.

If you hurry, you might be able to catch Ravenlorre...


CRP

[don has a plan]

I can just feel the love oozing from kensington, 'circuitridingpreacher', and the other anti-Catholic folks.

If that's 'Christian love', I don't want to be a Christian.  What lousy examples you all are.

[Tantor]

Love the sinner, hate the sin... thats what christian love is all about.

And then there is the issue of dealing with imposters that are twisting your religion seeking inclusion that really gets my goat.  We are told to stay away from said individuals... any good christian would do themselves a favor to stay away from the Catholic church as far as humanly possible.

Love has its place, but I dont think that love is to be extended to those that pervert Jesus' teachings.

[Charles Sloan]

I can just feel the love oozing from kensington, 'circuitridingpreacher', and the other anti-Catholic folks.

If that's 'Christian love', I don't want to be a Christian.  What lousy examples you all are.

You people need to get off Kensington's case, seeing how this new "CC" person singled her out of everyone and attacked her without cause. Kensington has every right to discuss her beliefs and voice her disagreements without having people jump down her throat for doing so.

I personally believe the roman church to have some of the most despicable doctrines to ever blight the teachings of Christendom. And just because I believe that or talk about it doesn't mean I am attacking anyone or acting unchristian. And the comments I see here leveled at Kensington and Circuitridingpreacher are less than I would expect from those counting them not as an enemy but admonishing them as a brother (cf. 2Th 3:15) [or sister in Kensington's case].

And Don, if you base your relationship to Christ on surrounding people and not on what he has done for you; you are in worse shape than anyone you would cast your judgments at.

[CDHealy]

Unfortunately for all those protesting their defense of promulgating deception about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, the issue for us Catholics (Roman and Eastern) is not that you all disagree with us.  Heck, I'm all about the give and take of disagreements in arguments.

But only so long as the truth is being stated.

The reason we Catholics are outing you all has nothing to do with your disagreement with what the Church has believed always, everywhere and by all, but rather that you deceptively distort and flatout lie about what those teachings are.  When we defend ourselves by not only denying and giving rational arguments and evidence supporting our denials, you turn right around, ignore what we've said and still promulgate your deceptions about our teachings.  You then, in violation of Christ's prohibition and by use of pseudo-Freudian analysis, go on to insinuate about our motives and that we are either willingly self-deceived (mindless automatons simply accepting without question what we're told--which in my case is absolutely laughable) or willfully deceptive.

This is hateful and unChristian.  If you all want to create a haven for bigotry and hatred, go for it.  Just don't claim that it's Christian.

[Charles Sloan]

Unfortunately for all those protesting their defense of promulgating deception about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, the issue for us Catholics (Roman and Eastern) is not that you all disagree with us.  Heck, I'm all about the give and take of disagreements in arguments.

But only so long as the truth is being stated.

The reason we Catholics are outing you all has nothing to do with your disagreement with what the Church has believed always, everywhere and by all, but rather that you deceptively distort and flatout lie about what those teachings are.  When we defend ourselves by not only denying and giving rational arguments and evidence supporting our denials, you turn right around, ignore what we've said and still promulgate your deceptions about our teachings.  You then, in violation of Christ's prohibition and by use of pseudo-Freudian analysis, go on to insinuate about our motives and that we are either willingly self-deceived (mindless automatons simply accepting without question what we're told--which in my case is absolutely laughable) or willfully deceptive.

This is hateful and unChristian.  If you all want to create a haven for bigotry and hatred, go for it.  Just don't claim that it's Christian.

Come on Healy,

The catholics here have done the very same things. You can't call everyone that disagrees with the RCC and EO all bigots and hateful because you don't agree with what they are saying. For one its against the rules to call people bigots on the board, and secondly the very same tactics and ploys you accuse the "anti-catholic" of doing are being done by the proponents of your camp. Seriously, you've had some catholic people here banned for their hateful and on one occasion violent remarks.

So don't be a hypocrite and claim that all the protestant are deceptive liars, since then you would be no different.