The Pope, Statues, and Icons

[mllevaleur]

I don't have any issues with your quotes from the Pope. I would assume he would be saying Christ Alone is our Hope. Even if he were the "anti-Christ" as Spurgeon stated, he obviously wouldn't be be openly denying Christ if he were here to deceive. Which by the way I don't believe he is here to deceive.

Thanks. 

I have to chuckle at the line of reasoning some (such as the quote by Spurgeon)...if you listen to them, the pope simply can't win. If he doesn't mention Jesus (which was the original accusation and why I posted all those quotes), he's anti-Christ. If he mentions Jesus, he's just pretending to teach about Christ in order to reel people in, and is still anti-Christ. I wonder, if what we're being taught by all the bishops and priests (all that "Christ is Our Hope," God alone is deserving of our worship, Christ is our one and only savior stuff) is not the "real" Catholic doctrine, when is it we learn that?  Maybe there will be "super secret REAL Catholic doctrine" classes later that I'm not aware of...

;-)

[Jaime]

Millevaleur,

I think in your post #69 above, you have described NOT just Catholic/Protestant misunderstanding, you have described misunderstanding between all denominations. I am firmly convinced that most if not all disagreement is 90% semantical or perspective differences. If we ALL could drop our preconceived ideas and presuppositions and honestly looked at issues, we would see it I believe. Just like those funky pictures in the mall I used to walk past that seemed like a wall paper pattern, but several other people were seeing 3 dimensional airplanes, etc. I would squint, cross my eyes, grimace, etc, but nothing. Sometimes we just have to stop, and take a deep breath and LOOK at things differently. For a lifelong Church of Christ hardhead, some of my "epiphanies" have been just as I described those pictures in the mall. When I see it, I jump up and down and holler, "how did I miss it", it's plain as the nose on my face. You know how hard that is for one of us hard-shelled stiff-necked Campbellites! Sometimes truth is plainest when it is stripped of all of our notions about what it should be or look like.

Some of my most heated arguments have been face to face with a Baptist friend of mine. We would rail on for hours quoting this and quoting that, saying you believe this and you believe that. Then one day after such a session, we both kinda dropped our guards and looked each other straight in the eyes and simultaneously admitted that "We ain't that far apart are we?" He said "it's just semantic differences", and I stated, "yes, mostly wrought by differences in perspective." We hugged..........in a manly manner, mind you with the requisite 3 back slaps, and have never spoken about our differences since. Mainly because we don't have any!

[Reformer]

Say, James, just now connected for the first time today.  Where are all the other posts relating to "The Holy Father & Mormon  Polygamy"?  I wasn't able to find them.

---Buff.

Hello Buff. As Gary already mentioned, another moderator decided to lock that thread, along with the "Roman Catholic atrocities"and "Protestant atrocities" threads.

     Hmmmmm.  Where and what are we coming to in a country that was built upon and cherishes freedom of speech.  For if a mere moderator can make a decision like this one, heaven only knows what our country's leader is authorized to do.

     I guess I'm requesting some additional information and, if possible, I'd like to communicate with the "moderator" who made this decision.  Would you please refer me to him?

     P. S.  Why don't we just make an effort to delete all of this history from our history books?

—Buff.

[marc]

We are not a country--or a board--without rules.  Crying "freedom of speech" as a defense for not following these rules is an old ploy. 

In short, the thread equated Catholicism with Mormonism, a quasi-Christian cult.  This does violate board rules.

Issues may be addressed and doctrines debated, but forum rules must still be followed.

[mllevaleur]

Millevaleur,

I think in your post #69 above, you have described NOT just Catholic/Protestant misunderstanding, you have described misunderstanding between all denominations. I am firmly convinced that most if not all disagreement is 90% semantical or perspective differences. If we ALL could drop our preconceived ideas and presuppositions and honestly looked at issues, we would see it I believe. Just like those funky pictures in the mall I used to walk past that seemed like a wall paper pattern, but several other people were seeing 3 dimensional airplanes, etc. I would squint, cross my eyes, grimace, etc, but nothing. Sometimes we just have to stop, and take a deep breath and LOOK at things differently. For a lifelong Church of Christ hardhead, some of my "epiphanies" have been just as I described those pictures in the mall. When I see it, I jump up and down and holler, "how did I miss it", it's plain as the nose on my face. You know how hard that is for one of us hard-shelled stiff-necked Campbellites! Sometimes truth is plainest when it is stripped of all of our notions about what it should be or look like.

I certainly agree! Many disagreements are largely semantic in nature, and we have our preconceived notions and tend to listen to confirm those notions rather than listen to hear what the other person is saying! And it is of course not limited to one side or another, it happens everywhere as you said.

I do think, though, that it's sometimes easier to assume things and hold onto preconceived notions regarding Catholics, largely because our collective "Catholic body language" is very visible, and very foreign to many people. And in my own experience, while I did exactly as you said and just did not listen to my protestant brothers and sisters and just assumed I knew what they were saying...I never quite got the same visceral reaction of disgust with them that I did when it came to the Catholics, and so I think it was even harder for me to "hear" their side, because I really wanted to hold onto my hate for them. 

Some of my most heated arguments have been face to face with a Baptist friend of mine. We would rail on for hours quoting this and quoting that, saying you believe this and you believe that. Then one day after such a session, we both kinda dropped our guards and looked each other straight in the eyes and simultaneously admitted that "We ain't that far apart are we?" He said "it's just semantic differences", and I stated, "yes, mostly wrought by differences in perspective." We hugged..........in a manly manner, mind you with the requisite 3 back slaps, and have never spoken about our differences since. Mainly because we don't have any!

Love the manly hug! It sounds like a truly grace filled moment. 

[Charles Sloan]

     P. S.  Why don't we just make an effort to delete all of this history from our history books?

I am having the same problem, since even looking at historical facts could be considered a volition of the rules if someone cries about it.

[Reformer]

We are not a country--or a board--without rules.  Crying "freedom of speech" as a defense for not following these rules is an old ploy. 

In short, the thread equated Catholicism with Mormonism, a quasi-Christian cult.  This does violate board rules.

Issues may be addressed and doctrines debated, but forum rules must still be followed.

     Marc, I find your statements remarkable.  In your very words you refer to Mormonism as a cult, yet you will not allow us to refer to the Papacy in terms that are similar or equal to a cult.  Yes, rules are rules, and rules are necessary in all areas of civilized society.  But those who make the rules are expected to be consistent and logical. 

     If you will inform me why you believe Mormonism is a cult, I will use your same logic to prove that the religious system we have been discussing is a cult of the deepest dye.  To help you ascertain what constitutes a cult, I request that you go to www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Cults.html , which is on my Website. 

     No, my Website is not an "anti-Catholic Website,"  nor is it an "anti-Protestant Website."  But it does research the cultist doctrines and practices of all major religions.  In the main, it points the reader to the goal of surrendering all sectarian religions in favor of freedom in Jesus.  It will be to your benefit to view the feature I referred to above.  Trust me.

—Buff.

[Charles Sloan]

 

[Reformer]

     Marc, here is the introduction to the feature on cults I referred to in my last post.  It might interest you to go to it.

     Life for many is so hollow they grasp for the first straw that passes their way. They seek some new concept with which to identify. Many wind up with cults or counterfeit movements that rob them of volition, money, real estate, self-respect, and for their unquestioning allegiance promise them "pie in the sky when they die

[marc]

Perhaps you need to re-read the forum rules.  They define who is to be considered Christian on this website and specifically prohibit calling those who are included cults. This is not my call, and it is not your call.

As to the claims that your previous post merely contained history, those of us who read the thread know what types of names were used. 

Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you.

[Harold]

Showing honor is wrong?

Rom 2:6  God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
Rom 2:7  To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Rom 2:9  There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Rom 2:11  For God does not show favoritism.

Rom 12:9  Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
Rom 12:10  Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Rom 13:7  Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Well just maybe context is important.

Php 2:29  Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him, (NIV)

The pope is subject to Christ, and he will be repaid for his deeds here in this life.

Guess what, so will I.

FTL

As far as history, those of the historicist point of view, Nero was the antichrist.

[Jaime]

I do think, though, that it's sometimes easier to assume things and hold onto preconceived notions regarding Catholics, largely because our collective "Catholic body language" is very visible, and very foreign to many people. And in my own experience, while I did exactly as you said and just did not listen to my protestant brothers and sisters and just assumed I knew what they were saying...I never quite got the same visceral reaction of disgust with them that I did when it came to the Catholics, and so I think it was even harder for me to "hear" their side, because I really wanted to hold onto my hate for them. 

I kinda get some of that when I tell folks I am a Church-o-Christer. Sometimes they respond with an attentive "Oh!.........um,hmmmmm, nice weather we're having, huh?"  All the while I'm reading their expression that says, "Oh my your one of THOSE!"

Also, back to your statement before about it upsets you to be accused of something you DON'T believe. I have spent literally hours on this very site defending the fact that I am not into salvation by works just because I believe that baptism is a necessary part of our faith response to God's free gift. I know what I mean, but obviously I can't communicate it. But my detractors have me pegged,...........they think. This is something that is indicative of most fights concerning religion. [You don't understand me and I don't understand you. Plus, I'm not going to listen to what you say you believe.]

Anyway, hope the rest of your day goes well. I've got to get to work, to offset my meager moderator pay. But hey, it's all about the rewards, right!

[Reformer]

Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you.

     Yes, I will re-read the rules and try to abide by them.  But no more threats, please.  I'm too old for that kind of game.

Respectfully,

—Buff.

[Jaime]

What threats are you talking about Buff? Marc's statement about the rules applies to you, me or anyone else who wants to post here. If we want to post here we should abide by the rules. No commentary necessary, just self explanatory!

[Charles Sloan]

I think Buff was just trying to get some clarification when it comes to the terminology and how we have arrived at the conclusion that Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults, but sects like The Roman Catholic Church and similar groups are not.

I for one would like to better understand this distinction.

[Jaime]

Sounds fair. I just didn't see any "threats" in Marc's response to him.

[marc]

Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you.

     Yes, I will re-read the rules and try to abide by them.  But no more threats, please.  I'm too old for that kind of game.

Respectfully,

—Buff.

And I am frankly tired of games.  None here. 

The clarification is in the paraphrase of the Nicene Creed in the rules and in other parts of the rules regarding calling other believers cultists. 

There was other language in the removed thread that violated rules as well. Before posting anything further about this here, please see the thread below.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=17041.0

[Mere Nick]

Heres another quote I was reminded of by Spurgeon (aka. The Price of Preachers):

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

-- C. H. Spurgeon

Ok...so did anyone read all the quotes I put from Pope Benedict above all essentially saying "CHRIST ALONE is our hope" I find it curious that no one has commented on them. I guess when it's not fuel for the anti-Catholic fire, it's not worth mentioning. 

I did.

[Harold]

Heres another quote I was reminded of by Spurgeon (aka. The Price of Preachers):

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

-- C. H. Spurgeon

Ok...so did anyone read all the quotes I put from Pope Benedict above all essentially saying "CHRIST ALONE is our hope" I find it curious that no one has commented on them. I guess when it's not fuel for the anti-Catholic fire, it's not worth mentioning. 

I did.

So did I.

FTL

[Reformer]

What threats are you talking about Buff? Marc's statement about the rules applies to you, me or anyone else who wants to post here. If we want to post here we should abide by the rules. No commentary necessary, just self explanatory!

 Jaime, no offence intended.  I simply took Marc's statement as an expression of intention to punish.  The punishment, of course, would be my removal.  He is free to pick his own words, but if he had said something like the following, it would have been easier to embody:

    "You are welcome to post here, but the rules must be followed."

Contrast that with...

    "Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you."

Anyway, I'll drop the matter.  Thank you.

—Buff.

[Jaime]

What threats are you talking about Buff? Marc's statement about the rules applies to you, me or anyone else who wants to post here. If we want to post here we should abide by the rules. No commentary necessary, just self explanatory!

 Jaime, no offence intended.  I simply took Marc's statement as an expression of intention to punish.  The punishment, of course, would be my removal.  He is free to pick his own words, but if he had said something like the following, it would have been easier to embody:

    "You are welcome to post here, but the rules must be followed."

Contrast that with...

    "Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you."

Anyway, I'll drop the matter.  Thank you.

—Buff.

I understand, but you have to realize that moderating on a board as volatile as this one has been lately is not much fun.

Give the Catholics a rest and talk about the Baptists for a while! 

[don has a plan]

I understand, but you have to realize that moderating on a board as volatile as this one has been lately is not much fun.

Give the Catholics a rest and talk about the Baptists for a while! 

Not a chance that will happen. 

[mllevaleur]

I have spent literally hours on this very site defending the fact that I am not into salvation by works just because I believe that baptism is a necessary part of our faith response to God's free gift.

I totally understand this one, I'm in the same boat there. ;-)

[James Rondon]

What threats are you talking about Buff? Marc's statement about the rules applies to you, me or anyone else who wants to post here. If we want to post here we should abide by the rules. No commentary necessary, just self explanatory!

 Jaime, no offence intended.  I simply took Marc's statement as an expression of intention to punish.  The punishment, of course, would be my removal.  He is free to pick his own words, but if he had said something like the following, it would have been easier to embody:

    "You are welcome to post here, but the rules must be followed."

Contrast that with...

    "Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you."

Anyway, I'll drop the matter.  Thank you.

—Buff.

I understand, but you have to realize that moderating on a board as volatile as this one has been lately is not much fun.

Give the Catholics a rest and talk about the Baptists for a while! 

So, hands off Roman Catholicism, hands on the Baptists and everyone else?

[James Rondon]

James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head.

The two words that epitomize most, if not all of your problems, "I think".

[Bon Voyage]

James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head.

The two words that epitomize most, if not all of your problems, "I think".

Can't we disagree without getting personal?

[Charles Sloan]

James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head.

The two words that epitomize most, if not all of your problems, "I think".

Can't we disagree without getting personal?

I think that depends, if someone disagrees will they automatically be labeled anti-catholic?

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=25755.msg492165#msg492165
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=25755.msg492043#msg492043

[James Rondon]

James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head.

The two words that epitomize most, if not all of your problems, "I think".

Can't we disagree without getting personal?

You obviously haven't read Don's posts.

[Jaime]

What threats are you talking about Buff? Marc's statement about the rules applies to you, me or anyone else who wants to post here. If we want to post here we should abide by the rules. No commentary necessary, just self explanatory!

 Jaime, no offence intended.  I simply took Marc's statement as an expression of intention to punish.  The punishment, of course, would be my removal.  He is free to pick his own words, but if he had said something like the following, it would have been easier to embody:

    "You are welcome to post here, but the rules must be followed."

Contrast that with...

    "Please respect the rules if you intend to post here. Thank you."

Anyway, I'll drop the matter.  Thank you.

—Buff.

I understand, but you have to realize that moderating on a board as volatile as this one has been lately is not much fun.

Give the Catholics a rest and talk about the Baptists for a while! 

So, hands off Roman Catholicism, hands on the Baptists and everyone else?

Not at all James, just trying to inject some levity into the conversation. Maybe I should said talk about the Polygamist now, since everybody dislikes them!

[James Rondon]

Since this is a discussion forum, we are free to talk about whatever, and whomever we want, as long as our talk is within forum rules. Furthermore, no doctrice, practice or "ism" is off limits, nor should it be, regardless of whether or not it conforms or would agree with some man made creed. Even so, the pendulum on this forum is swinging very quickly to the point where actual discussion will no longer be able to occur. Be forewarned.

[Bonnie]

 

Maybe I should said talk about the Polygamist now, since everybody dislikes them!

Randy, I feel so bad for all these woman and children we've been seeing on the news.  Some of the woman act as if they are half scared to death.  Maybe some of them have never seen the outside world before.?
I've not heard anymore more about the children. Have they been placed in foster homes?  Does anyone know?

[Jaime]

Maybe I should said talk about the Polygamist now, since everybody dislikes them!

Randy, I feel so bad for all these woman and children we've been seeing on the news.  Some of the woman act as if they are half scared to death.  Maybe some of them have never seen the outside world before.?
I've not heard anymore more about the children. Have they been placed in foster homes?  Does anyone know?

Bonnie, I refer you to the following thread for more info.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=25543.msg492498;topicseen#msg492498

[constantine]

I think Buff was just trying to get some clarification when it comes to the terminology and how we have arrived at the conclusion that Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are cults, but sects like The Roman Catholic Church and similar groups are not.

I for one would like to better understand this distinction.

JWs and Mormons distort the nature of God and therefore disagree with the Nicene Creed.  Roman Catholic and Protestants share a belief in the nature of God.  He is a Trinity.

The distinction between the Christian Church and a cult boils down to a believe in the Trinity.

This board recognizes this truth because the basic requirement to be considered a Christian here is agreement with the Nicene Creed.

[Charles Sloan]

JWs and Mormons distort the nature of God and therefore disagree with the Nicene Creed.  Roman Catholic and Protestants share a belief in the nature of God.  He is a Trinity.

Not all Protestants agree on the doctrine of the trinity. And Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons share many common beliefs in the nature of God.

The distinction between the Christian Church and a cult boils down to a believe in the Trinity.

Christianity is defined by a belief in Christ, not the trinity. And a cult should be defined through their Christology, not their trinitarian doctrines. But then again, this is neither here nor there since the forum rules to not recognize Christians through their acceptance of the trinity.

This board recognizes this truth because the basic requirement to be considered a Christian here is agreement with the Nicene Creed.

I personally don't accept or affirm any creed, but I understand Christianity through agreement with Scriptures. And you will notice that the rules do not require members to accept or affirm the Nicene Creed, but just to agree with the Biblical premises.

6.2  We do not expect members to accept or affirm this as a Creed as Grace-Centered recognizes no Creed but the Bible. We do, however, expect members to agree to the content below only because it is based on the Bible.

So a member of either the Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons don't have to accept or affirm the Nicene Creed.

Needless to say, I think its a little strange to have a member who has been her two days expounding the rules to a member who has been here nearly five years. But I guess you have been doing a great deal of reading in the last couple of days. Although I don't believe you have adequately defined why Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons are considered a cult.

[Reformer]

Even so, the pendulum on this forum is swinging very quickly to the point where actual discussion will no longer be able to occur. Be forewarned.

    I for one am leaning toward your sentiment.  It seems to be happening little by little.  After all, the soft, easy-going, non-opposition approach will not offend our neighbors.  And we must not offend them!  Even Jesus failed to adopt this demeanor.

—Buff.