The Pope, Statues, and Icons

[moelarry1]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

[Jon-Marc]

I imagine it bothers a lot of us, but we are outnumbered by those who actually believe satan's lie that the pope is God on earth, and that every word from his mouth is God's word. He is just a man who needs to be saved like the rest of us. Putting himself in the place of God and allowing people to worship him is an abomination, and it's also blasphemy. I'm sure God has special place for him in hell.

[Bonnie]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

I don't know that I would use the word bothered but it's wrong to set a man up as god or to worship him.

[constantine]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

The Pope, himself, would be the most disturbed about being worshiped because he knows more than any person, just how human he is.  God does not approve of people worshiping anything or anyone, apart from Him:

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

[Bonnie]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

The Pope, himself, would be the most disturbed about being worshiped because he knows more than any person, just how human he is.  God does not approve of people worshiping anything or anyone, apart from Him:

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

I think the pope must glory in the fact that so many brain washed people worship him or he would change the rules.

[constantine]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

The Pope, himself, would be the most disturbed about being worshiped because he knows more than any person, just how human he is.  God does not approve of people worshiping anything or anyone, apart from Him:

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' "

I think the pope must glory in the fact that so many brain washed people worship him or he would change the rules.

Catholics are taught to only worship God.

[Charles Sloan]

Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?

Yep.

Would god approve of this behavior?

Nope. (cf. Act 10:25, Rev 19:10, Rev 22:8-9)

[Jimbob]

I think "brain washed" is over the top, Bonnie.  They hold beliefs that you strongly disagree (as do I), but there's no use calling them "brain washed." 

[Jimbob]

Catholics are taught to only worship God.

Yes, but you'll find that to most of us non-Catholics the fine line you try to draw between "veneration" and "worship" is from our pov non-existent.  When a mere man accepts the kind of "veneration" that even the angels refused (remember the angel telling the Apostle John to get up after he bowed down before him) it seems to non-Catholics a line is crossed that should not be.

[constantine]

Catholics are taught to only worship God.

Yes, but you'll find that to most of us non-Catholics the fine line you try to draw between "veneration" and "worship" is from our pov non-existent.  When a mere man accepts the kind of "veneration" that even the angels refused (remember the angel telling the Apostle John to get up after he bowed down before him) it seems to non-Catholics a line is crossed that should not be.

I understand.  Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

[Charles Sloan]

Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

If prayer constitutes an act of worship, that statement can't be true.

[Bonnie]

I think "brain washed" is over the top, Bonnie.  They hold beliefs that you strongly disagree (as do I), but there's no use calling them "brain washed." 

We're very easily swayed, not including everybody or even possibly most, but even TV commericals are proof of that.  I don't know of a better word at the moment. I think they're different degrees of it.

[Bonnie]

Are these better:
Conditioning, indoctrination, propagandized?

[mllevaleur]

Hmm...I'm saddened when I see fellow Christians judging the hearts of others. 

All the Catholics I know who went to see the pope did not at all worship him, they welcomed him to our country and honored him, yes, the way you would a queen or president. His message the entire trip was "Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Christ is our Hope."

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

[mllevaleur]

Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

If prayer constitutes an act of worship, that statement can't be true.

Well, we believe prayer can be an act of worship, but that not all prayer automatically is. Some prayer is merely talking to our friends in Heaven and requesting that they pray for us, just as we ask our friends on earth to pray for us.

I prithee, Mr. Sloan, wilst thou pray for me?

(I "pray" to you, Mr. Sloan, will you pray for me?) 

[Mere Nick]

  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

It would bother me if that is what happened.

[James Rondon]

Catholics are taught to only worship God.

Yes, but you'll find that to most of us non-Catholics the fine line you try to draw between "veneration" and "worship" is from our pov non-existent.  When a mere man accepts the kind of "veneration" that even the angels refused (remember the angel telling the Apostle John to get up after he bowed down before him) it seems to non-Catholics a line is crossed that should not be.

I understand.  Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

So then, worship in the not so strictest of senses is allowed for Popes, and others?

[Charles Sloan]

Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

If prayer constitutes an act of worship, that statement can't be true.

Well, we believe prayer can be an act of worship, but that not all prayer automatically is. Some prayer is merely talking to our friends in Heaven and requesting that they pray for us, just as we ask our friends on earth to pray for us.

I think its interesting that this is the common (only) defense for praying to the "Saints". But I would beg to differ that praying to the dead is not fairly comparable to petitioning the living for prayers. I have never prayed to anyone to pray for me, and as far as I know from Biblical example all prayers are directed to God alone.

I prithee, Mr. Sloan, wilst thou pray for me?

(I "pray" to you, Mr. Sloan, will you pray for me?) 

I doubt you would like what I would pray for you my dear.

[don has a plan]

Hmm...I'm saddened when I see fellow Christians judging the hearts of others. 

All the Catholics I know who went to see the pope did not at all worship him, they welcomed him to our country and honored him, yes, the way you would a queen or president. His message the entire trip was "Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Christ is our Hope."

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

[Tantor]

Hmm...I'm saddened when I see fellow Christians judging the hearts of others. 

All the Catholics I know who went to see the pope did not at all worship him, they welcomed him to our country and honored him, yes, the way you would a queen or president. His message the entire trip was "Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Christ is our Hope."

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Unfortunately for the 30 minutes or so that I could stomach watching all the Pope coverage over the weekend, I never heard the Pope mention Jesus even once.

The coverage he got really irks me... there is no way in the world that America should be venerating that man so much since the very founding of this country was in part due to people fleeing the catholic persecution in Europe ..  Its the same with a lot of the protestants supporting the King James Bible.  What the heck are we all thinking?

The Pilgrims and Quakers all suffered persecution from Catholicism.

[Charles Sloan]

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Why are disagreements on an open discussion board constantly being characterized as hate?

[Jaime]

It's been flowing pretty equally in both directions for some time Don. I am unhappy about it, but I'm not sure where to begin. It's been tit for tat in both directions. I think mature people should be able to discuss and even point out each others errors by scripture without it evolving into a snot slinging cat fight. As a member of the Church of Christ, we have not been immune to intense criticism on this site. Some well deserved. Some not. I do wish it would become more civil. The moderator pay isn't worth this.

[James Rondon]

You get paid to be a moderator ???

[Charles Sloan]

You get paid to be a moderator ???

Can you say, back pay?

[Bonnie]

Hmm...I'm saddened when I see fellow Christians judging the hearts of others. 

All the Catholics I know who went to see the pope did not at all worship him, they welcomed him to our country and honored him, yes, the way you would a queen or president. His message the entire trip was "Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Christ is our Hope."

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

This is the best run board I've ever been to. Sometimes you got to stand up to be a man/woman for Christ. Letting people post untrue and false religious jargon does not make a good forum and even moderators have opinions.

[Jaime]

You get paid to be a moderator

Don't all the moderators? 

[mllevaleur]

Unfortunately for the 30 minutes or so that I could stomach watching all the Pope coverage over the weekend, I never heard the Pope mention Jesus even once.

That is rather unfortunate...the whole message the pope brought was encompassed in one phrase, "Christ Our Hope." Perhaps if you'd watched a little longer you might have seen some of these quotes:

Speaking to the American Bishops:

The goal of all our pastoral and catechetical work, the object of our preaching, and the focus of our sacramental ministry should be to help people establish and nurture that living relationship with "Christ Jesus, our hope

[constantine]

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Why are disagreements on an open discussion board constantly being characterized as hate?

Well, it might be different if everyone was allowed to participate

[kensington]

The "veneration" that they gave and he received is disgusting.  I made sure to note to my children that they were participating in "worship" of the creation rather than the creator.

[mllevaleur]

The "veneration" that they gave and he received is disgusting.  I made sure to note to my children that they were participating in "worship" of the creation rather than the creator.

Oh dear...I'm rather sorry to hear of children being taught to judge others hearts.  Not being God, you can't possibly know what is in the hearts of the people around the pope, I admit I find it quite uncharitable to assume you know they are worshipping him. 

[Charles Sloan]

The "veneration" that they gave and he received is disgusting.  I made sure to note to my children that they were participating in "worship" of the creation rather than the creator.

Oh dear...I'm rather sorry to hear of children being taught to judge others hearts.  Not being God, you can't possibly know what is in the hearts of the people around the pope, I admit I find it quite uncharitable to assume you know they are worshipping him. 

I think its admirable that Kensington would educate her children young that all "veneration" should be directed to God alone.

[kensington]

It still bothers me greatly that in the beginning of the "scandal" that Sister Jane Kelly cried out to him for help and he ignored her.

Not until she had contacted him numerous times and then said she was going public with the child molesting did he even reply to her, and then he told her it was an "American" problem. 

Someone said yesterday that a "Cardinal" has no influence to stop such things... I found that to be the most hypocritical thing to be saying...  a Cardinal at the Vatican can vote in the conclave, or even be the next Pope, as he was to be... but he has no connections to protect children in the church?  That is too sad.  If you can get that high and not know who to call to stop priests from abusing children, you are in a sad state of affairs.

Sad indeed. And NOW... He receives the accolades of the deceived masses who probably have no idea that he refused to help.

And what did Sister Jane get for her fight, for her struggle to help the innocent?... She got their backs. They revolked her vows of 55 years.  Sister Jane Kelly is a saint. But, I can't vouch for the rest of them at all...  they appear to wear the garments of hypocrisy at the lowest levels... and back up to the highest levels of that religious system.  Certainly, satan had influence on many of the men and women in that Church.  They fell  hook line and sinker for what he offered them in power over doing the right thing, time and time again. Benedict being Pope is evidence of that.

Read her book... "The Sermon's Of Sister Jane"...  She says  that for 27 years she watched the cases pile up, and the local diocese circle the wagons. She has been speaking out for years, mostly ignored, and now, at 71, she is so outraged that she is writing a book, detailing the sins of the clergy.

[James Rondon]

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Why are disagreements on an open discussion board constantly being characterized as hate?

Well, it might be different if everyone was allowed to participate

Everyone is allowed to participate, within the rules.

[mllevaleur]

I think its admirable that Kensington would educate her children that all "veneration" should be directed to God alone.

It's not that part that bothers me, I understand we have a difference of opinion there. I reserve worship for God alone, but to honor His Creations is to Honor Him, just as to praise a painting honors the artist. On that, we can agree to disagree...

I just don't like seeing children being taught to judge others' hearts...mostly because it brings back shameful memories of my own childhood and what a judgemental little girl I became because of such "teaching" from my own parents.  

May God forgive me...

[kensington]

Mellevar, I have an obligation to teach my children about everything in life, and especially what goes on in my home. My sil and fil were in my home on friday and they turned it on, and as they spoke what they think and called him "Holy Father" and my sil got on her knees with hands folded... I can speak to that.

I'm sorry you think I don't or shouldn't. I sure am not going to sit passively by and watch her educate them on the hearts of man.  God said to "Judge all things" and that "we will know them by their fruits"...

I still ask, if it is not worship, and it's not right... why do you sit here and tell me that, why are you not going and teaching the deceived Catholics like my sil who do worship him openly. Why don't you do your brothers and sisters in Catholicism right and help them?