Joyce Meyers Teaching Another Gospel?

[Dave...]

Generally, when we think of WOF preachers, people like Benny Hinn always get the headlines. But I have noticed that Joyce Meyers is almost always overlooked and she usually gets a pass. Even when I attended a Pentecostal church (AOG), Benny Hinn was to be avoided, but Joyce Meyers teaching was readily accepted as sound doctrine. I never really understood that.

Anyways, here is a paper written by a charismatic, warning people about Joyce. It's a critique of one of her books. Since I'm not charismatic, nor Pentecostal, I though it would be better received from within, so to speak.

http://www.christian-witness.org/not_in_pubs/joyce.html

[Bonnie]

Dave, I have listened to Joyce Meyers only a couple of times.  I don't know that much about her but the last investigation of misappropriated funds showed her among the bunch along with Benny Hinn and Ceflo Dollar.  I've never heard if a ruling has been made or not.

I guess I've pretty much lost confidence in TV Ministries.  Also, I like Billy Graham a lot and respected him until I saw on a You Tube where he is saying that there's other paths to God.  So I pretty much just avoid them all anymore.

I do like Paul Washer's messages...

[marc]

I know quite a few people who watch her.  I used to a bit, and even though I've heard her lumped in with the others, she never seemed as bad to me.  Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

[Jaime]

I haven't listened to her much, but her book Battlefield of the Mind, helped me through a serious period of depression. It is a very good book.

[spurly]

Dave, define "another gospel".  Are you using the same definition Paul used in Galatians?  Is she teaching people that in order to be saved they need more than God's grace, they must be circumcised and keep the Law?

[Dave...]

EDIT spurly not marc Spurly, it's in the link. I know sometimes it's not fun to read those things...

I have many things that I disagree with concerning charismatic-pentecostal teachings, even though I started in a pentecostal church, but stuff like this is serious.

I know of lots of women who still listen to Joyce. She has a strong appeal towards young and middle aged women. Even though I disagree with a lot of her teachings, I do believe she is one of the few who are genuinely sincere in actually believing those things she teaches. That doesn't make it right, but I haven't seen anything from Joyce to make me believe that she's in it for the money. I could be wrong.

I give here credit for her stating that the Bible condemns homosexuality on Larry King. Still, her teaching in the link, and beyond, is right in line with some of the worst of the worst. She uses a lot of psychology. This is typical in the new age movement.

Dave

[memmy]

Ok, I love Joyce Meyers. There.

[memmy]

Can you be specific of where she has been "contrary to scripture"?

I can't get these videos very well with dial up.

[Dave...]

Hi memmy

It's just a written (typed) paper, not a video. Is the link working for you?

Dave

[Nevertheless]

This section of the article may cause some here to question statements made in other parts:

Look into it. Every cult disparages the cross. And the cross being the core, the very crux of the Gospel makes any message that disparages the cross "another gospel."

Think about it, Jehovah's Witnesses view the work of Christ as simply a down payment for their salvation. It was not sufficient in and of itself. It must be supplemented with a regular serving of field service, literature placement, baptism, obedience to dress and hair codes, meeting attendance, and a myriad of good works on the "salvation treadmill."

On top of that they claim that the cross is a pagan symbol. Likewise, Mormons don't display crosses. Why? They believe that part of the atonement was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane where "He sweat as it were great drops of blood." That's why a Mormon who commits murder must have his own blood shed (i.e., firing squad) in order to atone for that particular sin (the dreaded Blood Atonement doctrine).

Reverend Sun Myung Moon teaches that Jesus failed His mission on earth by allowing Himself to be crucified.

        "If Jesus had not been crucified, what would have happened? He would have accomplished the providence of salvation both spiritually and physically."

Oneness Pentecostals teach that it's essential for one to be baptized in order to be saved. The finished work of Christ was not enough. The Church of Christ teaches this also. Both groups also add many works that salvation hinges upon. Is it any wonder they have no assurance of salvation.

Roman Catholicism teaches Purgatory. Harmless? It's a place of fiery torment equal to the flames of Hell where one is purged (i.e., cleansed) of his sins, according to official Roman Catholic doctrine. In fact, the Council of Trent anathematizes (curses) anyone who believes that the cross is sufficient. Does His blood or fire cleanse us? Enough said. What is more important, the cross is relegated to Plan A while Purgatory is Plan B for those to whom the cross is insufficient.

[Bold added by me.]

The author quite obviously believes that the Church of Christ is a cult. That stance will not endear him to most of the members of GCM.

[memmy]

The author quite obviously believes that the Church of Christ is a cult. That stance will not endear him to most of the members of GCM.

Well, some coming out of them believe so as well. Not all of them are, but some do qualify, if being called a cult are ones who believe if you don't do things the way they do only, you are lost.

[seekr]

 Just because someone can sound like they have truth and manipulate people doesn't make them a child of God. She is in it for the money and the power and her excess is evident. Million dollar homes for her and her kids. I must admit she makes a good "show". There is a reason Jesus said that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into heaven. Someone can be wealthy but more is required from them.

It isn't about false doctrine but about the pride that robs people. I have listened to her and it makes me ill. I've mentioned this before about one time on her show she said that God told her to leave $20 for the maid at the motel she was at. She was in a hurry and said she struggled with it. But she said she did it, being obedient to God. A millionaire struggling with giving $20?? And said God said it? Why are we not wise? Why do we still fall for the snake oil salesmen? Look at how smug she acts on her show. She does teach falsehood, her and her levels to reach. Why we could be just like her. If she had said she paid the maid's rent for a year or two then maybe I would think it was God. I would love to hear the maid's version of this story. Sorry if anyone who follows her is offended but she offends me.

[Serenity432001]

I've only heard her once or twice and like most people I hear, some things she said I liked and some I didn't.  Jaime said she wrote a book that helped him so good for her for that.  I imagine she's like the rest of us, does some good things and some not so good.  I do kind of get the same impression seekr has as far as the smugness and not as big a giver as I would think someone with her wealth would be were they following Christ example.  Interesting topic so far. 

[Nevertheless]

Smugness irks me as well.

[seekr]

Has anyone here read the book In His Steps? I love that book. It can be found online also. In it the author asks if someone who is a millionaire gives $10,000 where is the sacrifice in that? The law is still "Love God and your neighbor as yourself." In 2Corinthians 8 it speaks about equality in giving. This is what determines who belongs to God. it says so in 1John3:14-19.

I love this.... 3We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

[marc]

She uses a lot of psychology. This is typical in the new age movement.

Dave

I haven't read any of the post after this yet, but I wanted to comment very quickly that psychology is not necessarily of the Devil.  I've been a little surprised to find a number of similar such references to psychology lately--I didn't think this idea was still prevelant.

Psychology is nothing more than trying to understand how we think.  Knowledge is beneficial.

[marc]

A couple of people have mentioned smugness, and, yeah, that's pretty much why I stopped watching her.  I thought she seemed to be getting a little too pleased with herself (although I allow that this impression may have been in my brain and not in her intent).  I saw her a month or two ago when I was snowed in and didn't quite get the impression as strongly as I had before.

[JERRY C]

let me chime in for a few minutes.
I listen to JM, occasionally, but not too critically.

but, this topic does interest me, esp. with N's quote --

Oneness Pentecostals teach that it's essential for one to be baptized in order to be saved. The finished work of Christ was not enough. The Church of Christ teaches this also. Both groups also add many works that salvation hinges upon. Is it any wonder they have no assurance of salvation.

I do happen to be one of those cultic coc'ers.  But, currently I am attending one of those non-cultic SB churches!  I have received some M level training in COC schools.  And, I grew up attending COC SS.

The real question is, IMHO, is what truly constitutes "teaching another gospel".  I just smile and look away with comments like N's above, and chalk it up to something.

The allusion is to the apostle Paul's comments in Galatians, I would think.  Baptism-or-not, was not the issue in Galatians, as N seems to think.  To get at the heart of Paul's white-hot comments in Galatians, one really needs to look at the judaizing teachers and their message.  It did not involve baptism, at all, but rather references back to circumsion and kosher diet.

One is saved by grace, through faith, period.  Now, the question is, what separates the saved from the unsaved?!  Or, is some form of universalism the correct position?  Legalistic doctrine is definitely outside the bounds of the true gospel.  And, "getting it right" is not the solution. (though we may all be a bit guilty of thinking this! )

Basically, the Lk.18:9f. expression of faith by the TC is the connecting point with the grace of God given in, by, and through Jesus.  This is what I believe.  This is what I teach.  (N, you are out of bounds and off base; but, I doubt I could convince you that I know more about myself than you know about me. )

Does JM teach and emphasize this?  I am not sure.  Many seem to emphasize worldy success, or some form of charismania, rather than the death, burial, and resurrection of the Savior.  Does God bless us with our daily bread?  he taught us to pray for these things.  But, we are also taught to be content with food and clothing.  And, there is the song about Jesus wearing a Rolex.

[spurly]

The real question is, IMHO, is what truly constitutes "teaching another gospel".  I just smile and look away with comments like N's above, and chalk it up to something.

The allusion is to the apostle Paul's comments in Galatians, I would think.  Baptism-or-not, was not the issue in Galatians, as N seems to think.  To get at the heart of Paul's white-hot comments in Galatians, one really needs to look at the judaizing teachers and their message.  It did not involve baptism, at all, but rather references back to circumsion and kosher diet.

One is saved by grace, through faith, period. 

I agree, which is why I asked Dave to explain what he means when he says Joyce is "teaching another gospel".  Is he using Paul's definition or someone else's definition?  Dave has not yet answered that question, to my knowledge.

[seekr]

Well first what is the gospel? It is the good news that delivers us. The good news being about love that Jesus showed by dying for us (great sacrifice) and if we follow the gospel then we should be willing to at least sacrifice for others. I love what Jesus said to Peter three times and that was to FEED His sheep. For some reason we do not take this literally. We make it about teaching and not about the law of love, being we should take care of one another if we are telling Jesus we love Him. Always back to the law that we really are under.

[NewsWatcher]

http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/joycemeyer.nsf/0/C5099399D2FCC5FA86256DDF00661C5F?OpenDocument

You have to scroll down a tad for the article listed above.

http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm

[k-pappy]

I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach?  Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?

In Christ,
KP

[Serenity432001]

I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach?  Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?

In Christ,
KP

Good news-k-pappy, You don't even have to be a superstar evangelist for that to happen!

[kensington]

Ok, I love Joyce Meyers. There.

The truth is, any time you see someone who is trying to do big things for the LORD concerning His peoples, you will find those who will come out from everywhere to critique and critisize...  but I say to them... "Hey, where are all the books you have written, where are the millions of Christians you have discipled?"   You can always find someone not doing anything who will critisize someone doing the best they can.

I like her teachings, I follow no one human. But, Her teachings are biblical. 

[kensington]

I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach?  Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?

In Christ,
KP

Yep.. and you can make bank on it... and if you are a gambling man, you can get really rich too!

[spurly]

I agree, which is why I asked Dave to explain what he means when he says Joyce is "teaching another gospel".  Is he using Paul's definition or someone else's definition?  Dave has not yet answered that question, to my knowledge.

spurley, it's in the link provided in the OP. I'm getting the sense that you are refusing to read it, so for your sake, I'll explain some of it.

1) Do you believe that Jesus, being perfectly sinless, and perfectly righteous, atoned for our sins by dieing on the cross, *and* suffering three days in hell, as only as a man?

2) Or do you believe that Jesus, being God incarnate, both fully man and fully God, died on the cross being perfectly sinless, and perfectly righteous, so that we may be the righteousness of God in Him?

Is one of the above another Gospel?

I'll add that, as far as I know, Joyce herself never claimed that Jesus was the first born again man, but what she has stated is foundational for that heresy and taught within WOF. As the link provided in the OP explained.

Dave

Thanks for answering my question.  I now see that they are not using Paul's definition of "another gospel" that we find in Galatians.  Is what she is teaching correct, no.  Does it fall under the Biblical definition of "another gospel" Paul used in Galatians, no.

We like to accuse people of teaching "another gospel" so we can tell them that they are eternally cursed.  However, we need to be careful throwing that phrase around and we need to consider the context of Galatians before we accuse everyone we disagree with of "preaching another gospel".

[kensington]

Is what she is teaching correct, no.

Could you clarify this statement?  Just for those of us who do watch her occasionally.

[k-pappy]

The point I was making, Dave, was that JM DOES teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father.'

THAT is the Gospel to which I adhere, the same as Paul:  Christ and Him crucified.

JM teaches that as well.

Have I agreed with everything that I have watched when it comes to her teaching?  No.  But I would never make the claim that she teaches "another gospel."

In Christ,
KP

[kensington]

Dave you have not proved that JM teaches any other gospel than that of "Jesus crucified"  which is the gospel unto salvation.

You imply she teaches something else, but you have not said what it is you think she teaches.

[kensington]

Jesus was nailed to the cross for professing that He was God. He and the Father are One.

Which do you believe--- Joyce's Gospel, or the Gospel of the Bible?

Time to step out of your lukewarmness and make a stand. You can't believe both.

"'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?'

They say that you were only a man.

"Who do you say that I Am?"

This is not true. Jesus was crucified from the foundations of the earth. He was not crucified for professing He was God.  He was crucified for the sins of all mankind, by His own choice. It was the only reason He came to earth.

You need to read the gospel. He was born to die, for us. 

[Hehealedme]

.

[bekahdoo]

I am another one that likes listening to Joyce M...I don't know if her teaching is 100% biblical all of the time but she does make a lot of sense when she speaks...I have learned a lot through what she says, especially on my own self-esteem and how to treat others...

I have to agree. She has helped me through some really tough times, and I have never seen where her words contradict what the Bible says.

I can tell you this, her conferences and appearances are free of charge. Unlike say, Joel Osteen, that charges a fortune for admission and then asks for money twice during his "show". And never once does he mention that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation!

[Serenity432001]

Here's how I see it:  Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and even Oprah, although Oprah really shouldn't be in the same catagory because she isn't claiming to be a "preacher", she's just a blessed talk show host.  But I digress....anyway, all these folks and more have some good things to say and can be helpful and beneficial.  All are human and are going to say some stupid things, even wrong things but so do I and so do you so we stay in close contact with our heavenly Father and pray for His wisdom and knowledge of His will for us and if He decides to use one of these very flawed individuals to teach us something we might need to learn, then, imo, its best not to just dismiss everything they say, simply because they say somethings we don't agree with.   

[JERRY C]

lunch time! ham sandwich, cajun chicken and rice soup! and GCF!

thought I'd stop by and check in on this string of posts.
Spurly, we seem to see the same issue - what is "another gospel"?
the allusion to Paul's language in Galatians would seem to indicate that the meanings should overlap between what Paul meant and what we are implying?!

Christology, Soteriology, Theology proper, all interact and mingle.  But, strictly speaking, the Galatian problem was in the S category.  But, what if we jump over to the Johannine literature and deal with the Christology questions going on there with the gnostics?

2Jn.7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

The nature of God, and especially of the Son, incarnate, is particularly complex, confusing, and contentious.  We have, as His followers, come with all sorts of theories, names for groups and their doctrines, and theological jargon for the different understandings and positions taken by well-meaning and serious thinkers.  And, it would seem, reading John, that there are some limits to what is orthodox and kosher.  But, who can explain this?! (why, several of us understand this, fully; just ask us!  but we may not agree with each other).  I could pray the Shema, daily.  But, I could initial the creedal statement, "...fully God, fully man..." as well.  In math, 3 = 1 is nonsense.  In theology, it is mystery.

It sounds like JM is off center, as far as her Christology.  Theology and the History of Christian Thought teaches where the banks of the stream of thought are.  She seems to have run up on a sand bar, at best.  But, is she still promoting Jesus as the only way to heaven?  It sounds like she is.  Is she promoting some Mormon-type theism?  does not sound like it.  Could we put some other heretical-epithet on her Christology?  possibly; maybe probably.


(maybe this post should be in the theology room?)

[memmy]

Yeah maybe to some, but considering that was written in 1998, maybe she has grown just as we all should have since then.