are court judges sinners?

[faithys]

I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth.  I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.
History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.
God Bless

thx, i just wanted to seek answer to this question, which have is hard to conclude or answer,
bible holds god word of today,
bt however it hard to change judges mindset especially those non christian, why do i say so?
be4 a judge, decide on penalty for criminals, he consult with a board of members. remember that in modern sociaty law is make and decide by human, and words of god in bible is rarely or nver use in decision, i mean they dun just take out a bible during consultation and start throwing reasons why the criminal shall go free, they thk only on suffering of victims and profile of criminals. also, a non-christian judge, will nt use how we thk, and thus dish out a heavier punishment.
let us not 4gt, at times it hard to just use a bible to convince a non-christian, we have to use a lot of talking and logic with common sense.

[Bonnie]

I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth.  I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.
History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.
God Bless

thx, i just wanted to seek answer to this question, which have is hard to conclude or answer,
bible holds god word of today,
bt however it hard to change judges mindset especially those non christian, why do i say so?
be4 a judge, decide on penalty for criminals, he consult with a board of members. remember that in modern sociaty law is make and decide by human, and words of god in bible is rarely or nver use in decision, i mean they dun just take out a bible during consultation and start throwing reasons why the criminal shall go free, they thk only on suffering of victims and profile of criminals. also, a non-christian judge, will nt use how we thk, and thus dish out a heavier punishment.
let us not 4gt, at times it hard to just use a bible to convince a non-christian, we have to use a lot of talking and logic with common sense.

You are right.  They have made laws of their own and many things the Bibles says is wrong they say is right.  God isn't in their ways and they don't want Him in them.  As government and religion don't mix.  That was their decision so why would Christians think they can really make changes.

We have struggled for years over the abortion issue.  It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions. 

New Jersey recently ended the death penalty.  We can hope and pray that other states will follow.  If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.

[faithys]

We have struggled for years over the abortion issue.  It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions. 
New Jersey recently ended the death penalty.  We can hope and pray that other states will follow.  If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.

convincing the state nt to do certain things is hard, and to abolish a practice which have been going on for many hundreds,thousand of years is seems impossible.
bt all depend on whether the government wanted to hear what the citizens have a say, imagine having a feedback form, which company will 100% flip through and make changes to feedback, and rmber, the government must have the face to go with majority, and also imagine they abolish death sentence, how many ppl will recommit crime or killing, and hw will ppl feel abt the state governemnt if they abolish death sentence and give even the toughest criminal life sentence? there will be bound to be dissagreement in every thing.
again, coming bak to the topic, it depend on a human mindset and thinking to stop sinning, if nothing is change or help, it will just continue through generations...

[Bonnie]

We have struggled for years over the abortion issue.  It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions. 
New Jersey recently ended the death penalty.  We can hope and pray that other states will follow.  If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.

convincing the state nt to do certain things is hard, and to abolish a practice which have been going on for many hundreds,thousand of years is seems impossible.
bt all depend on whether the government wanted to hear what the citizens have a say, imagine having a feedback form, which company will 100% flip through and make changes to feedback, and rmber, the government must have the face to go with majority, and also imagine they abolish death sentence, how many ppl will recommit crime or killing, and hw will ppl feel abt the state governemnt if they abolish death sentence and give even the toughest criminal life sentence? there will be bound to be dissagreement in every thing.
again, coming bak to the topic, it depend on a human mindset and thinking to stop sinning, if nothing is change or help, it will just continue through generations...

Yes, you're right.  It would take a change in the people which I don't see happening at least on a large enough scale to make a difference.
There are people who have committed such horrific crimes that they could never be trusted to roam free to kill and maime again.
The innocent and helpless little children that suffer so tremendously even some at the hands of their own parents is hard for us to bare or think of.
I believe only the Lord has the answer and true justice will never be until He calls an end to it all.
We can pray and do all we can to help and protect those we can and that's about all I know to do.
You have a very kind and Christian attitude.  May the Lord bless you!

[Tuna]

Wow that is a great question.  Yes they are sinners, but then so are we all, as we have all fallen short. 

But, I think a more direct answer to your question might be that we as a government have assigned the unenviable task to these men (the judges) to make the call of extending or extinguishing the life (here on earth) of people for heinous crimes.

However, in terms of eternal life, only God can make the call of Heaven or Hell.  So that these people who may or may not have committed these horrible crimes, in the long run can only be judged by God.  And their ultimate destination will not be judged on their earthly crime so much as their heart, when they meet their maker.

[faithys]

Yes, you're right.  It would take a change in the people which I don't see happening at least on a large enough scale to make a difference.
There are people who have committed such horrific crimes that they could never be trusted to roam free to kill and maime again.
The innocent and helpless little children that suffer so tremendously even some at the hands of their own parents is hard for us to bare or think of.
I believe only the Lord has the answer and true justice will never be until He calls an end to it all.
We can pray and do all we can to help and protect those we can and that's about all I know to do.
You have a very kind and Christian attitude.  May the Lord bless you!

yes u are right,
this world today, sry ppl, is already tarnished, full of ppl doing sins repeatly, crimes, wars, all these, bt jesus will only coem a second time when everyone heard of god's name, and god have the only answer to all the qns.... all we can do is pray for ppl,
death sentence may nt be the answer to everything, it been a battle since long ago, whether it right to execute a hideous criminal, since we are killing also of other ppl life.so far it been pointing it wrong,

thx, you 2, having to point out ur point 2 in a gracious way,
MAY LORD bless all!!

[faithys]

Yes they are sinners, but then so are we all, as we have all fallen short. 
But, I think a more direct answer to your question might be that we as a government have assigned the unenviable task to these men (the judges) to make the call of extending or extinguishing the life (here on earth) of people for heinous crimes.
However, in terms of eternal life, only God can make the call of Heaven or Hell.  So that these people who may or may not have committed these horrible crimes, in the long run can only be judged by God.  And their ultimate destination will not be judged on their earthly crime so much as their heart, when they meet their maker.

yes, by doing such a thing, as deciding n making the call of killing somone, we are almost "playing god" by deciding someone destiny and decide to c whether the person is bad enough for u to kill,
only god can judge us and decide how we gonna be and when we going to die, and in the end HE make a final call, of heaven n hell./

[Charles Sloan]

The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:

Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

[Bonnie]

The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:

Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

Charles, you're trying to go back and live under OT law when adultery was also reason to kill.

Christ has plainly changed the way some penalties are to be carried out.  Vengeance belongs to the Lord.  He said He will repay!  It's wrong to kill.  Don't you trust God to carry out justice?

[Charles Sloan]

The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:

Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

Charles, you're trying to go back and live under OT law when adultery was also reason to kill.

Christ has plainly changed the way some penalties are to be carried out.  Vengeance belongs to the Lord.  He said He will repay!  It's wrong to kill.  Don't you trust God to carry out justice?

Bonnie,

Because I quote a passage doesn't mean I'm going to live under the Old Testament. I hear that thrown around so much, its pretty disgraceful to accuse someone of that for simply pointing to a passage. Besides this passage has nothing to do with adultery [a non-sequitur], but its addressing murder and murderers.

But please don't be so hasty to assume because someone agrees with the death penalty that they don't trust God. Especially since the Bible says that God uses men execute his vengeance and repay... (cf. Rom 13:4)

Just some things to consider.

[Bonnie]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

[Jimbob]

And it's been pointed out to you that 12 doesn't contradict 13, and that 12 doesn't say that Christians are to avoid public service. 

That's you talking, not the Scriptures, and that's not authoritative.  You still haven't really answered Dennis's question about why those in such positions in the NT aren't called to abandon their jobs.

[Bonnie]

Romans 13 is clearly given to keep law and order in the secular world.
We as Christians owe our respect and should by all means pray for those who hold these offices.
We're to live peacefully with all men in as much as lays within us to do so and abide by the laws of the land as long as they don't oppose those of God.
But those who want to live by the sword will die by the sword.

[Bonnie]

If you back track you will see where I answered Dennis, jmg3rd.

[Charles Sloan]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

[Bonnie]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

[Jimbob]

Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT.  Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well.  But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that.  The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations.  But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.

But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.

Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions?  Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?

Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?

We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further.  Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.

My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.

Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world?  He commissions us to go forth and make disciples.  Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.

Yes, you did respond to Dennis, but you did not show that those men were wrong to continue in their public service. 

[Bonnie]

I think I have demostrated why by what I've already posted.
If you think it isn't about revenge (and in your case I don't believe it is) but I've had this debate before in other forums.  You didn't read those Christians replies or see the hatred in them.

[Bonnie]

Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with  the topic at hand, Bonnie.  That's a dodge.  The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.

I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.

That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.

I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT.  Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well.  But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that.  The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations.  But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.

But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.

Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions?  Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?

Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?

We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further.  Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.

My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.

Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world?  He commissions us to go forth and make disciples.  Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.

Yes, you did respond to Dennis, but you did not show that those men were wrong to continue in their public service. 

How could I?  Since nothing else in scripture is told about them. We have no idea what they did or didn't do.  Can you show where Jesus commanded us to take care of these worldly matters?  Or did he not call us to be separate and commissioned us to go and make disciples, to be about the Father's work.  We're not to entangle ourselves in the affairs of men.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

Bonnie

The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.


CRP

[Charles Sloan]

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

Never said we did.

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.

When you address me by name and tell me I and others are ignoring Scripture, it seems pretty direct and personal.

I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

I think the reason you can't find anything in the New Testament to support the death penalty is because you are convinced that what you say is the truth over anything that might be provided to you as evidence to the contrary from the Bible. Look back at that discussion we had on that other thread, where I and others provided passages and now here you were provided with more. Your responses are little better than denials and accusation toward those laboring to discuss this topic from a Biblical world view. You position in this discussion seems more defensive and sometimes even retaliatory than someone who is really open to looking at what the Bible has to say about the subject.

Just an observation.

[normfromga]

hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?

here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or supreme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,

by giving out death sentences, they are already condemning and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemning the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate,  and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemption or salvation, and by condemning them, you are stopping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of Jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultery, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemn the criminals?

hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?

The commandment against murder obviously did not include capital punishment, since it was prescribed for several crimes in the OT, including adultery, which your second reference supposedly addresses.

And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scriptures.

But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."

Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) 

[Bonnie]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

Bonnie

The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.


CRP

I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.

[Bon Voyage]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

Bonnie

The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.


CRP

I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.

Does everything need to be backed up in the NT even if it is mentioned in the OT?

[Bonnie]

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

Never said we did.

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.

When you address me by name and tell me I and others are ignoring Scripture, it seems pretty direct and personal.

I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

I think the reason you can't find anything in the New Testament to support the death penalty is because you are convinced that what you say is the truth over anything that might be provided to you as evidence to the contrary from the Bible. Look back at that discussion we had on that other thread, where I and others provided passages and now here you were provided with more. Your responses are little better than denials and accusation toward those laboring to discuss this topic from a Biblical world view. You position in this discussion seems more defensive and sometimes even retaliatory than someone who is really open to looking at what the Bible has to say about the subject.

Just an observation.

Charles, I call you by name because yes, we are addressing your previous post.  That still doesn't make it a personal thing.  I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty.  In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.
As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this.  Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?

[GLORYTOGOD]

"Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge."


it isnt?, please elaborate.

[Bonnie]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

Bonnie

The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.


CRP

I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.

Does everything need to be backed up in the NT even if it is mentioned in the OT?

Certain things such as the law does, yes. But not everything does.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.

I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.

If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it.  And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.

We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.

Bonnie,

Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.

But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574

So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.

I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.  

I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.  I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying.  I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.

Bonnie

The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.


CRP

I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.

You won't see the name Jehovah in the NT either, but He's there under a different name.  

With issues like this, the problem is with our seeing through, rather than its being true.  


CRP

[Bonnie]

hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?

here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or supreme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,

by giving out death sentences, they are already condemning and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemning the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate,  and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemption or salvation, and by condemning them, you are stopping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of Jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultery, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemn the criminals?

hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?

The commandment against murder obviously did not include capital punishment, since it was prescribed for several crimes in the OT, including adultery, which your second reference supposedly addresses.

And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scriptures.

But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."

Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) 

You wouldn't ask that if you had read this thread.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

[Bonnie]

CRP, I appreciate your input but I know God is in the NT.  Christ is God.  It's some of the others who could never be convinced of that.

[Charles Sloan]

I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty.

I have posted passages such as Numbers 35:33, Acts 15:11, and Romans 13. Which is more than can be said for you.

In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.

I haven't torn down anything you've said on this message board Bonnie, I have simply stated my beliefs and defended them with Scripture. But need I remind you that after I posted my comments it was you who accused me of living under the law of the Old Testament, not trusting God, ignoring Scripture, and now "tearing down your posts".

But why should we be the ones trying to find out if your posts are Scriptural, shouldn't you be the one demonstrating that?

As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this.  Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?

Bonnie, the other thread is called "For Or Against the Death Penalty", how again is that a strawman?

[Bonnie]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

Sounds like Romans 13.

[GLORYTOGOD]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.

but what do i know ? i am very new to this.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

Sounds like Romans 13.

Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.

CRP