are court judges sinners?

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.

but what do i know ? i am very new to this.

It is pretty hard to take that verse any other way than it reads.

CRP

[Bonnie]

I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty.

I have posted passages such as Numbers 35:33, Acts 15:11, and Romans 13. Which is more than can be said for you.

In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.

I haven't torn down anything you've said on this message board Bonnie, I have simply stated my beliefs and defended them with Scripture. But need I remind you that after I posted my comments it was you who accused me of living under the law of the Old Testament, not trusting God, ignoring Scripture, and now "tearing down your posts".

In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.

Why should we be the ones trying to find out if your posts are Scriptural, shouldn't you be the one demonstrating that?

As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this.  Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?

Bonnie, the other thread is called "For Or Against the Death Penalty", how again is that a strawman?

You should have called it by name.  That was a long time ago.

I'd think you would care enough to see if they are scriptural or not before dismissing them.  No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.  I wouldn't expect you to.

[Bonnie]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

Sounds like Romans 13.

Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.

CRP

I agree.  I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people.  Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?

[Charles Sloan]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

Sounds like Romans 13.

Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.

CRP

I agree.  I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people.  Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?

Me neither, it is not my place to be a part of civil government, but civil government is a God-ordained institution to bring about His purposes, and capital punishment is one of them. In a fallen world law enforcement allows and protects personal safety for individuals, without which it would not be very pleasant at all. Our safety comes from God and one of the means used is civil law enforcement. When our safety is reduced for whatever apparent reason, it is because God sees fit to reduce it.

CRP

[Bon Voyage]

My favorite judges are Smith & Wesson.

[Bonnie]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

[GLORYTOGOD]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.

but what do i know ? i am very new to this.

It is pretty hard to take that verse any other way than it reads.

CRP

i read the verse "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" who is it that leadeth into captivity and killeth with the sword is this not the beast that is spoken of leading up to this verse? am i not understanding? where am i going wrong ?
who is it that is passing judgement on he that killeth with the sword???

[GLORYTOGOD]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

bonnie,

So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .

[Bonnie]

Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.

Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

CRP

Sounds like Romans 13.

Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.

CRP

I agree.  I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people.  Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?

Me neither, it is not my place to be a part of civil government, but civil government is a God-ordained institution to bring about His purposes, and capital punishment is one of them. In a fallen world law enforcement allows and protects personal safety for individuals, without which it would not be very pleasant at all. Our safety comes from God and one of the means used is civil law enforcement. When our safety is reduced for whatever apparent reason, it is because God sees fit to reduce it.

CRP

Sinners and the lawless are who the civil government is for.  They'll take care of the judging of it and the carrying forth without any help from Christians.

[Bonnie]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

bonnie,

So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .

I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn.  The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.

God Bless

[Bon Voyage]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

I've seen very little biblical support.  I've seen a wholesale throwing away of the OT and the examples therein and some of the NT made to contradict itself.  If you close your eyes, you won't see what God's Word says.

[GLORYTOGOD]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

bonnie,

So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .

I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn.  The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.

God Bless

My goal @ this point is to know Jesus more and more each and every day.
While this thread is very intresting, can you recommend any good books or anything i can do  to help me with this?

ty
g2g



God bless

[Bonnie]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

[Bonnie]

No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.

Bonnie,

Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.

Not too much to ask.

I think I have given biblical support.  What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT. 
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?

bonnie,

So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .

I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn.  The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.

God Bless

My goal @ this point is to know Jesus more and more each and every day.
While this thread is very intresting, can you recommend any good books or anything i can do  to help me with this?

ty
g2g



God bless

I recommend the Blue Letter Bible site.  Commentaries by Matthew Henry are a favorite of mine.  I don't take what he says as the gospel but I like him.  I'll get you a link to the site in a minute and post it.

[Bonnie]

Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

[GLORYTOGOD]

Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

i ve added it to my favs

thx g2g

[Bonnie]

Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

i ve added it to my favs

thx g2g

Happy to help. 

[Imabear]

The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force.  They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens. 

It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on. 
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ.  I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.

I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.

I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Sure.

That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.

Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.


CRP

[Bonnie]

The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force.  They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens. 

It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on. 
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ.  I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.

I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.

I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.

  Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!

[Bonnie]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Sure.

That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.

I understand that part.

"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about.  It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.

Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.

[/quote]

The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.

CRP
[/quote]

Is that correct?

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Sure.

That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.

I understand that part.

"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about.  It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.

Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.

The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.

CRP
[/quote]

Is that correct?
[/quote]

That is correct.

God has ordained two groups of leadership: the church and the government. Each is in place to ensure a check on the other, and yet both are subject to the laws of God, which are written on the hearts of the saved and the unsaved.

Imagine if you lived in North Korea, and were killed by a native North Korean because you were a Christian. Not only would the government there not offer retribution to your killer but they would celebrate him. That place is all government, no church.

Now imagine either Europe under Popery or England under Anglicanism, where many such atrocities were committed merely because one did not tow the religious line. Those places were all church and no government.

Be thankful for separation of church and state, and yet understand that if either of them stray from biblical principles or convictions of God, the results are always terrible.

CRP

[Bon Voyage]

The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force.  They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens. 

It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on. 
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ.  I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.

I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.

I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.

  Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!

When it takes 25 years to get death, of course it isn't a deterrent.

[Bon Voyage]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This chapter is not talking about civil government and the death penalty.  It is talking about immoral folks in the church.  Your use of this verse is a stretch.

[Bonnie]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This chapter is not talking about civil government and the death penalty.  It is talking about immoral folks in the church.  Your use of this verse is a stretch.

Gary, I know what it's talking about but Paul went further by asking what has he to do with them that are without.  My point being that he wasn't their judge or overseer of those outside of the church.  That tells me that neither are we.

What do you think the Bible is saying in Timothy I believe it is when Paul tells us not to be entangled in the affairs of the world.

You are all passing over all of this and that's why you're not getting it.  Rightly divide the Word.  Read and digest it all before coming to conclusions such as the death penalty based mostly on part of a chapter in one book of the NT; which i believe if you study it all you'll come to understand that the civil government is put in place for the lawless and sinners.

[Bonnie]

Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this?  The part in bold -

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Sure.

That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.

I understand that part.

"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about.  It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.

Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.

The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.

CRP

Is that correct?
[/quote]

That is correct.

God has ordained two groups of leadership: the church and the government. Each is in place to ensure a check on the other, and yet both are subject to the laws of God, which are written on the hearts of the saved and the unsaved.

Imagine if you lived in North Korea, and were killed by a native North Korean because you were a Christian. Not only would the government there not offer retribution to your killer but they would celebrate him. That place is all government, no church.

Now imagine either Europe under Popery or England under Anglicanism, where many such atrocities were committed merely because one did not tow the religious line. Those places were all church and no government.

Be thankful for separation of church and state, and yet understand that if either of them stray from biblical principles or convictions of God, the results are always terrible.

CRP
[/quote]

CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me?  The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything.  God will judge him/her.  Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.

Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him.  God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.

David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul.  God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him. 

He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword.  God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.

[Bon Voyage]

You are all passing over all of this and that's why you're not getting it.  Rightly divide the Word.  Read and digest it all before coming to conclusions such as the death penalty based mostly on part of a chapter in one book of the NT; which i believe if you study it all you'll come to understand that.....

I think you need to take your own advice as I believe you are the one who needs to rightly divide the Word.

[GLORYTOGOD]

How about the people that have been wrongly imprisioned over the years? Do you think that their may have been some or even one that have been put to death wrongly? If the latter is true isn't this enough reason to be against the death penalty ?

[faithys]

And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scripture
But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."
Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) 

answering to you, u are contridicting yourself, jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, he want sinners to repent and live a life without sinner, he prevent people to kill the person but to give them a second chance,
AND SINCE when did jesus does something or say something that to support killing of each other, or judging of each other? i dun thk so

you ask me whether we are willing in a society with criminals to walk free, i answer you, "why not?" you are asking me a selfish question, and it tell me   that you are not displaying a christian altitude by 4giving, and loving own brothers. how would you know they will commit sin again and kill people, or that they want redemption and live a christian life?

[Circuitridingpreacher]

CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me?  The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything.  God will judge him/her.  Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.

Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him.  God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.

David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul.  God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him. 

He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword.  God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.

Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.

David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed.  You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.

As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).

CRP

[Circuitridingpreacher]

How about the people that have been wrongly imprisioned over the years? Do you think that their may have been some or even one that have been put to death wrongly? If the latter is true isn't this enough reason to be against the death penalty ?

If you believe that God is sovereign, no one has ever been unjustly imprisoned. John Bunyan was in prison for 12 years, and out of it came Pilgrim's Progress. This world is merely temporary, it is not the Christian's home. If I was unjustly executed, all it would mean to me is that I am going home to be with Christ. If a lost man is unjustly sentenced to be executed, all it would mean is that he now must face eternity and decide where he wants to go.

Everything for a purpose.

CRP

[Bonnie]

CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me?  The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything.  God will judge him/her.  Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.

Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him.  God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.

David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul.  God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him. 

He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword.  God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.

Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.

1. Might he also prepare to meet God without the death penalty?  I know of countless reports of prisoner's accepting Christ.
2. We know the threat of death row hasn't effected nor changed most who are set to kill.  It doesn't work according to statics.
3. The third one I disagree with.  Based on God judges each person on his own record.

David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed.  You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.

As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).

CRP

[/quote]

CRP, I believe David's love for Saul is what kept him from killing him.  God had disowned Saul although David does make mention of him being God's annointed several times.

David was a great man of war.  This was done when physical Israel was instructed by God Himself to fight His enemies.
God has no enemies today except for the ones who refuse His Son.

Yes, God sets kings up and He takes them down.  We must agree accordingly that American is not the only nation with a ruler.  Did God not set those kings up as well?
Whose business is it to go and kill them, destroy their country, killing the innocent along with the warriors?  on false trumped up charges in order to take what belongs to their country? 

[Circuitridingpreacher]

CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me?  The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything.  God will judge him/her.  Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.

Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him.  God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.

David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul.  God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him. 

He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword.  God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.

Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.

1. Might he also prepare to meet God without the death penalty?  I know of countless reports of prisoner's accepting Christ.
2. We know the threat of death row hasn't effected nor changed most who are set to kill.  It doesn't work according to statics.
3. The third one I disagree with.  Based on God judges each person on his own record.

David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed.  You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.

As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).

CRP

CRP, I believe David's love for Saul is what kept him from killing him.  God had disowned Saul although David does make mention of him being God's annointed several times.

David was a great man of war.  This was done when physical Israel was instructed by God Himself to fight His enemies.
God has no enemies today except for the ones who refuse His Son.

Yes, God sets kings up and He takes them down.  We must agree accordingly that American is not the only nation with a ruler.  Did God not set those kings up as well?
Whose business is it to go and kill them, destroy their country, killing the innocent along with the warriors?  on false trumped up charges in order to take what belongs to their country? 

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1. Different circumstances are required for different people to come to Christ, what we cannot do is remove any of the God-ordained circumstances.
2. The current American threat of Death Row is pathetic, and with all the legal hoops, mostly works out to a life sentence in prison only. In Singapore where they have public canings for people who spit their gum on the sidewalk, the sidewalks are very clean.
3. The third one you are seeing right now. America kills the unborn and lets the murderer live, corporate judgment is happening already, and will get much more intense as the famine rolls in.


God Himself has instructed the civil authorities to use capital punishment in cases of murder, and whether it is followed through justly or unjustly, they are accountable for what they do in the matter. Some agree, some disagree, but the fact remains; and likewise so do the consequences.


CRP

[Dennis]

I have been busy the last few days and several pages have intervened since my last post.  Bonnie, in answer to your reponse, the reason I said the passages you cited didn't support your position is because my reading of them leads me to conclude that they do not even address the issue.  At the time of my comment, you had cited two passages to support your position that Chrisitians cannot participate in civil government, the last part of Rom. 12 and the passage where Jesus tells Pilate that his Kingdom is not of this world and that if it had been, his disiciples would have defended him. 

I will take the last passage first.  It is the response Jesus makes to Pilate as He submits himself to the civil authority.  It says absolutely nothing about a Chrisitan's participation in civil authority and what if any limits there might be on that  participation.  I do not see how Jesus' comment that his disciples are not defending him defines what we can or cannot do to defend ourselves in this world or collectively defend each other or participate in the administrative aspects of government.  It just doesn't address these topics.

As to Rom 12, the same applies.  The last half of Ch. 12 admonishes us to live in peace as much as it is possible [which by the way implies it is not always possible].  It says do not avenge yourselves, leave that to God [and of course Ch. 13 goes on to explain, at least in part, how God's wrath is poured out].  This passage is referring generally to our Chrisitian lives.  It certainly makes no specific reference to civil government and I do not see how it can be reasonably interpreted to be a prohibition for Christians to participate in civil government. 

Which brings us back to Ch. 13.  I may be wrong, but I think pretty much everyone here believes Ch. 13 establishes the proposition that civil government is ordained of God and even the enforcement powers of government arre ordained of God.  My question is simply this.  If civil government is ordained of God, how can we say it is per se prohibited for Chrisitians to participate?