are court judges sinners?

[Bonnie]

I'm tired of debating the issue.  I believe I have done all that I can to present the other side of this issue.  I'm not alone in my beliefs and neither are you. It's up to each individual what they choose to believe. That's all I have left to say.

Peace

[Imabear]

The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force.  They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens. 

It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on. 
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ.  I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.

I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.

I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.

  Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!

Bonnie, I do think we have some differences of opinion on some things... you are a tad bit more conservative, and hold to a few different doctrines than I do.  I don't think we're that far apart on most issues though.

[Bonnie]

The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force.  They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens. 

It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on. 
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ.  I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.

I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.

I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.

  Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!

Bonnie, I do think we have some differences of opinion on some things... you are a tad bit more conservative, and hold to a few different doctrines than I do.  I don't think we're that far apart on most issues though.

I believe you are right about that.   

[Dennis]

I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie  for anyone to comment on.  If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?

[Bon Voyage]

I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie  for anyone to comment on.  If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?

Seems to me that if it's wrong to be a politician, it's wrong to work for civil government as well.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie  for anyone to comment on.  If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?

In days like these, to get elected you will be forced to compromise. An elected Christian is a compromising Christian. It is no shame to run in an election as a Christian, the only shame is to win an election as a Christian.

If I ever ran for office, I might get two votes at the most, but only if I could convince my wife to vote for me.

CRP

[Imabear]

I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie  for anyone to comment on.  If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?

Dennis, I don't feel qualified to defend that position, but I know and respect people who hold that position.  As far as I am aware, the teaching on this originated as a reaction to some horrific persecution of believers (Anabaptists and others), by the church-state in Europe about 500 years ago.  These groups believe that followers of Christ, who are to be humble, loving, and peaceful, should remain separate from the government.

[Dennis]

CRP,

Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise?  I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to.  The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected.  In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel.  Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?

W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree.  At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place.  I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core.  But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers.  To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there."  I do not think it makes sense. 

I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right.  For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ."  In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas.  Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role.  But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself.  Enforcing civil law is not the same thing.  There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes.  Romans 13 is one example.

Here is another way to look at the question.  If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves?  Should they have no laws except scripture?  What if they started to grow and some started to stray?  Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers?  Would that all have to be done through the Church?  Is the Church really intended for that purpose?

[Bonnie]

CRP,

Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise?  I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to.  The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected.  In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel.  Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?

W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree.  At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place.  I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core.  But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers.  To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there."  I do not think it makes sense. 

I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right.  For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ."  In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas.  Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role.  But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself.  Enforcing civil law is not the same thing.  There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes.  Romans 13 is one example.

Here is another way to look at the question.  If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves?  Should they have no laws except scripture?  What if they started to grow and some started to stray?  Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers?  Would that all have to be done through the Church?  Is the Church really intended for that purpose?

I've not seen much honesty in city government elected officials let alone governor or president.  As you brought up city treasurer to me and I told you I saw nothing wrong with that.  The ones I know are appointed and do little more than pay bills for the city. I don't see that as an elected office in civil government.

There's too many to satisfy, too many crooks along the way to win an office of high authority.  Promises made, lies told by the candidate, and crooked deals going on to be honest and get elected.  Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?

Civil government was put in place as I said before for the lawless and the sinners.
I have to go for now.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

CRP,

Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise?  I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to.  The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected.  In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel.  Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?

W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree.  At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place.  I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core.  But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers.  To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there."  I do not think it makes sense. 

I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right.  For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ."  In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas.  Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role.  But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself.  Enforcing civil law is not the same thing.  There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes.  Romans 13 is one example.

Here is another way to look at the question.  If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves?  Should they have no laws except scripture?  What if they started to grow and some started to stray?  Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers?  Would that all have to be done through the Church?  Is the Church really intended for that purpose?

To answer your first question NO. To run in an election one does not have to compromise, but to win it one does. At the first press conference of a committed Christian the question would be "Do you really believe Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation?" I would answer, "Yes, and there is much more I need to tell you besides that!" I won't get elected because the majority of any country of this time does not believe this to be true (a la wide and narrow gates) that means the majority will stand against this position, and it is hard to win an election in a democrasy when the majority is against you.

Bush was forced into the same corner when confronted about Islam, and said "We all pray to the same god." He is a denier of Christ.

Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?

CRP

[Dennis]

Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?

CRP

The question was to determine your perspective, not to comment on mine.

[Dennis]

Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?

Bonnie,

I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out.  As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises.  So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?

[Bonnie]

Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?

Bonnie,

I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out.  As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises.  So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?

Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question.  God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out.  I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.

All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.

[Dennis]

Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?

Bonnie,

I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out.  As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises.  So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?

Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question.  God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out.  I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.

All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.

Bonnie,  I understood your comment above to be your viewpoint on the original question.  I understood you to say that participation in governemnt is wrong, at least in part, because "Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it."  My question was simply how does that distinguish government from any other walk of life.  While you are under no obligation to answer, I am interested in you viewpoint.  I believe this question is a logical follow up to a point you brought into the discussion and do not believe it is off topic. As far as being off topic, I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with Moses.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?

CRP

The question was to determine your perspective, not to comment on mine.

It is easy to sit there and ask questions, the shame is that you never seem to offer up any answers.

You do realize that the serpent in the garden operated very similarly.


CRP

[Bonnie]

Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?

Bonnie,

I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out.  As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises.  So how does that distinguish government from any other type of employment?

Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question.  God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out.  I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.

All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.

Bonnie,  I understood your comment above to be your viewpoint on the original question.  I understood you to say that participation in government is wrong, at least in part, because "Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it."  My question was simply how does that distinguish government from any other walk of life.  While you are under no obligation to answer, I am interested in you viewpoint.  I believe this question is a logical follow up to a point you brought into the discussion and do not believe it is off topic. As far as being off topic, I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with Moses.

How does that distinguish government from any other walk of life?
I don't understand your question. Could you make it a little plainer as to what you're comparing government to?

I am simply saying that laws and the making of them are different today as compared to say the Mosaic law. God made those laws and Moses carried them out. 

It was the government or rulers who jailed Apostle Paul, Peter, John because they preached. They beheaded John because he told them it wasn't lawful for a man to have his brother's wife.  It was the government or king who threw the Hebrew children into the fiery furnace for not bowing to their idol. They exiled John to the island of Patmos for refusing to worship their idol, etc, etc.  Government is not a friend to religion.  Don't you realize that the Antichrist will be a highly political, proclaimed Christian? And the false prophet will come from a most popular religion that is very close to the real thing?