Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?

[Tantor]

What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.

I don't know where you go from here then Tantor.  The Bible is the only thing that you have to tell you anything about God.  I guess you will just have to make it up as you go along.  But, frankly, based upon some of your postes it sounds like that is what you have been doing all along.

No, I prefer to put the totality of the corruption of man in the forefront when I view spiritual things.

The end is we are all sinful and all corrupt, even those in the church for the last 2k years.

And if God has never brought you to your knees and convicted you of just how worthless you are, I doubt your conversion.

Conversion to what?  Without the word of God there is nothing to convert to nor is there any reason to convert if there was anything to convert to.

So you worship a book?

[Jimmy]

What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.

I don't know where you go from here then Tantor.  The Bible is the only thing that you have to tell you anything about God.  I guess you will just have to make it up as you go along.  But, frankly, based upon some of your postes it sounds like that is what you have been doing all along.

No, I prefer to put the totality of the corruption of man in the forefront when I view spiritual things.

The end is we are all sinful and all corrupt, even those in the church for the last 2k years.

And if God has never brought you to your knees and convicted you of just how worthless you are, I doubt your conversion.

Conversion to what?  Without the word of God there is nothing to convert to nor is there any reason to convert if there was anything to convert to.

So you worship a book?

That was really a dumb comeback.  Let's back up a bit.  You said,

No, I prefer to put the totality of the corruption of man in the forefront when I view spiritual things.

What makes you think that man is corrupt at all, let alone totally?  Is that something that God has revealed to you personally?  If so, how?

[extranos]

If you are referring to Romans 6:23 concerning wages of sin and death, I think most agree that physical death is not what is in view.  Paul is talking about spiritual death, or the second death.  That is apparent because he contrast the wages of sin with the free gift of God:

22  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now it is true that Adam's sin resulted in his getting ejected from the Garden which then precluded our participation in that.  But our physical death is not punishment for our sins.  Just punishment for sins is spiritual not physical death. 

Physical death is what we inherited from Adam since it was the Garden that offered the fountain of youth so to speak.  When the Garden was placed off limits to Adam and his progeny then physical death resulted from that.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.......where to start?
There is no such thing as eternal spiritual death.  Those who die without Christ are not annihilated, they live forever without God.  Therefore, Romans 6 is talking about physical death.  Paul is contrasting our physical death with our eternal life -  both physical.  You will live eternally, if you are saved, in a physical body - or else why would there be a resurrection?
It's a nice attempt at dodging the issue, but not effective in the least.  Of course, it is a necessary attempt for you because of your theological positions - e.g., pure and innocent children.  Why, I would hazard a guess that you believe in a teaching called the "age of accountability", something that is not found nor taught in all of Scripture.

Finally, you've really jumped the shark with the "fountain of youth in the Garden of Eden" theory.  What a hoot it must be to go to your church - please don't tell me you're a preacher.

Sheeeesh, I've got to stop responding to you.

[Jimmy]

If you are referring to Romans 6:23 concerning wages of sin and death, I think most agree that physical death is not what is in view.  Paul is talking about spiritual death, or the second death.  That is apparent because he contrast the wages of sin with the free gift of God:

22  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now it is true that Adam's sin resulted in his getting ejected from the Garden which then precluded our participation in that.  But our physical death is not punishment for our sins.  Just punishment for sins is spiritual not physical death. 

Physical death is what we inherited from Adam since it was the Garden that offered the fountain of youth so to speak.  When the Garden was placed off limits to Adam and his progeny then physical death resulted from that.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.......where to start?
There is no such thing as eternal spiritual death.  Those who die without Christ are not annihilated, they live forever without God.  Therefore, Romans 6 is talking about physical death.  Paul is contrasting our physical death with our eternal life -  both physical.  You will live eternally, if you are saved, in a physical body - or else why would there be a resurrection?
It's a nice attempt at dodging the issue, but not effective in the least.  Of course, it is a necessary attempt for you because of your theological positions - e.g., pure and innocent children.  Why, I would hazard a guess that you believe in a teaching called the "age of accountability", something that is not found nor taught in all of Scripture.

Finally, you've really jumped the shark with the "fountain of youth in the Garden of Eden" theory.  What a hoot it must be to go to your church - please don't tell me you're a preacher.

Sheeeesh, I've got to stop responding to you.

extranos, extranos, extranos

I won't bother to discuss any of this with you.  I have seldom run across any with such far out and wierd ideas.  I knew they didn't come from the Scriptures, and now I know why.  Scripture doesn't mean anything to you.  But even so I will simply post a couple of scriptures which you undoubtely have no use for.

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

And with that I will simply bid you a good evening.

[Imabear]

Since Zoo started a thread referring to this post...
I'll add something here.
I just started reading the book Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy.  The book has had me in tears.  It tells the story of the Nickel Mines School shooting, and the Amish response to it.

The morning of the shooting, the school teacher led the children in the singing of some songs in German.

"Bedenke Mensch das Ende"  Consider, man! the end, Consider your death, Death comes quickly; He who today is vigorous and ruddy, May today or sooner, Have passed away....

"In der stillen Einsamkeit" In quiet solitude, You will find your praise prepared, Great God hear me, For my heart seeks You.  You are unchanging, Never still and yet at rest, You rule the seasons of the year, And bring them in at proper time.

The following song was read at the funeral of 7 year-old Naomi Rose:

"Ich war ein kleines Kindlein"
I was a little child
Born into this world;
But my hour of death
God has sent quickly.

I have nothing to say
About the world and it's doings;
I have in my days
needed nothing of that.

My most beloved father
Who begat me into the world,
And my dearest mother
Who has nursed me herself,
They follow me to the grave
With inward sighs;

Yet I was God's gift
Which He now takes to Himself.
He takes me with grace
To an inheritance in His kingdom.
Death cannot harm me
I am like the angels;

My body shall live again
In rest and eternal joy,
And soar with my soul
In greater glory.

[dfc1959]

this is a tough issue..everyone wants to no why somthing has happened..we tend to look at the now..and how we feel about what has just happened..it reminds me of a story of a girl who had a brother born with a birth defect..she was upset with God because she could not understand why he made her brother like that..as time went on the brother died and she was even more angery at God..but with the death of her brother..research was done and that same disease that killed her brother has saved many lives..it reminds me of the story of joseph and all the bad things his brothers put him through and when it was over he said what u had intended for bad God has turned to God ..we dont always look down the road..our minds are not Gods minds..he nos the future we dont...what an awesome God to turn bad into good..