Denominations Will Never Unite - G.C. Brewer

[Sherman Nobles]

The truth in the matter is that it's not all about what you believe is truth, or what I believe is truth.  It's all about God.  None of us has Him all figured out. 
I guess we all tend to draw lines somewhere.  I consider myself one in the faith with pretty much all who diligently seek to be followers of Christ.  Yep, I have siblings in Christ who are Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Anabaptists, Evangelical Free, Pentecostal, maybe even some of those in the CoC. ;)

I chose my church in part because I could see Jesus in the members of the congregation.  (Isn't that cool!)  They have a humble, generous spirit.  I later learned that they had some beliefs that were slightly different than what I believed.  They were all things I could live with though.  :)

Blessings.

I appreciate your attitude and I approach such in a very similar fashion.

Blessings,
Sherman

[blituri]

K.C.Moser who has had his second coming among some of the "scholars" taught a view that one OBEYED THE GOSPEL by HAVING FAITH.  That puts a lot of power in one's personal belief in a "person." That person identified a SON as one who obeyed his FATHER.  I am not aware of any one in history who has defined FAITH as OBEDIENCE and got away with it among a new flegding theologians.  Certainly, Martin Luther or John Calvin would identify such views as Satanic.

I have taken a quick look at "can the gospel be obeyed." Primarily, I have taken his proof texts and just added the context.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Gospel.Obeyed.html

This isn't a denominational-specific view but asks "what does the Scripture say?" Then, you are free to adapt Scripture to your views.

[savedbyhim]

The following comments might be like throwing dynamite on a camp fire, but when I first read this it really spoke to me....I hope that you like it also.

"God is love and he wants us to grow up to be like him. The height of maturity is not how much doctrine you know. The height of maturity is how deeply you love." - Rick Warren

Having quoted these very wise comments of ol' Rick here, I just wonder if maybe we do spend too much time focusing on our own capabilities to be doctrinally "perfect" instead of just getting on with being loving Christians forgiven of our sins and saved by grace through faith?

[segell]

The following comments might be like throwing dynamite on a camp fire, but when I first read this it really spoke to me....I hope that you like it also.

"God is love and he wants us to grow up to be like him. The height of maturity is not how much doctrine you know. The height of maturity is how deeply you love." - Rick Warren

Having quoted these very wise comments of ol' Rick here, I just wonder if maybe we do spend too much time focusing on our own capabilities to be doctrinally "perfect" instead of just getting on with being loving Christians forgiven of our sins and saved by grace through faith?

Powerful observation and manna to you!

[blituri]

Jesus didn't prescribe a WORSHIP SERVICE: he said that worship is in THE spirit (ours) as opposed to in places: Zion or Gerezim.  God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the works of human hands.

A musical instrument is "a machine for doing hard work, mostly in making war or the shock and awe of religious spectacle" intended to fleece the sheep.  Service under the Law was called HARD BONDAGE. Instead the gospel is "come to me all ye that labor and are heavey laden and I will give you rest." Rest means COOL IT. Heavy laden means "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals" -- worship services.

Jesus commanded the ekklesia or synagogue which is a school of the Bible. The NOT musical passages of Romans 15; Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 identify a TEACHING-ADMONISHING assembly. It was called a school of Christ. Paul's primary worship word was to "give heed to the Word" in all of our activities.

Therefore, one as a DISCIPLE goes to SCHOOL instead of a worship (threskia) service could not and would not tolerate a worship service DEDICATED to producing the spiritual anxiety or the mental excitement (Rom 15) Jesus and Paul OUTLAWED.

The Restoration Movement restored church as "a school of Christ" and worship as "reading and musing" the word just like the Spirit of Christ commanded for the church in the wilderness and continued for several centuries before LITURGY or magical acts were added.

A DISCIPLE does not fellowship those taking all of their time and money to do MAGICAL acts in an effort to appease God who said: "I own all of the cattle on a thousand hills; I don't get hungry and if I did I would not tell YOU."

The overwhelming majority of those in the Old Testament did rituals: Only a tiny remnant focused on a WORD-CENTERED synagogue and only those who had not "bowed to Baal" were the remnant on the day of Pentecost.  Most "sermonizing" is a highly-honed profession to "take away the key to knowledge" as Jesus said of the doctors of the Law.

There is no imperitave to be a TWO PLACES at the same time and "fellowship" demands that you affirm, attend and support those institutes who steal from the destitute and just destroy your emotional health. At the same time Jesus Christ demanded that we "preach the truth" and it might begin in our own church without being subjected to the charge of legalism or exclusiviness.

[Lee Freeman]

K.C.Moser who has had his second coming among some of the "scholars" taught a view that one OBEYED THE GOSPEL by HAVING FAITH.  That puts a lot of power in one's personal belief in a "person." That person identified a SON as one who obeyed his FATHER.  I am not aware of any one in history who has defined FAITH as OBEDIENCE and got away with it among a new flegding theologians.  Certainly, Martin Luther or John Calvin would identify such views as Satanic.

I have taken a quick look at "can the gospel be obeyed." Primarily, I have taken his proof texts and just added the context.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Gospel.Obeyed.html

This isn't a denominational-specific view but asks "what does the Scripture say?" Then, you are free to adapt Scripture to your views.

Ken, I appreciate all your effort, but I'll stick with Paul whom Bro. Moser understood, I think.

As I recall, the Apostle Paul also "put a lot of power" in people's belief in a person:

But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:8-14)

But Jesus also placed a priority in believing  in him:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Jesus said that he would "draw all men to myself." I don't remember anywhere in which he said he would draw all men to baptism. In another place he said we were supposed to "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Nowhere does either Jesus or Paul preach a gospel of baptism. Baptism cannot give us "rest for your souls" because Jesus has already said that he will do that personally.

In Galatians 3:2 Paul wrote:

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

This verse clearly says that salvation and by extension the Holy Spirit, is imparted, not through any kind of obedience, even baptism, but through belief in Jesus.

And in I Corinthians 1:17 he makes a clear distinction between the Gospel and baptism:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

And also, what makes the opinions of Clement and Tertullian more authoritative than Moser? Or Paul for that matter?

No, clearly Moser had a scriptural grasp of faith, baptism and obedience. For Moser, baptism was faith in action. In Moser's theology, anyone who understood baptism yet refused it had little or no real faith in Jesus to begin with. Baptism is how we appropriate the blessings conferred by the gospel. But baptism is no more the gospel than eating is food. Eating is how we appropriate food but it isn't itself food. Same with the gospel and baptism. Baptism is the believer's faith response after he has believed in Jesus for his salvation.

Any theology that makes salvation a work, dependent upon proper obedience is a false gospel that should be destroyed.


Pax.

[mistergus]

Lee,

I suppose this is your way of saying you still accept the unimmersed as Christians.

I don't know why you're even here, Lee.  You have no dog in this fight.

Robert G

[savedbyhim]

But Jesus also placed a priority in believing  in him:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)



No, clearly Moser had a scriptural grasp of faith, baptism and obedience. For Moser, baptism was faith in action. In Moser's theology, anyone who understood baptism yet refused it had little or no real faith in Jesus to begin with. Baptism is how we appropriate the blessings conferred by the gospel. But baptism is no more the gospel than eating is food. Eating is how we appropriate food but it isn't itself food. Same with the gospel and baptism. Baptism is the believer's faith response after he has believed in Jesus for his salvation.

Any theology that makes salvation a work, dependent upon proper obedience is a false gospel that should be destroyed.


Pax.

I agree with Moser that baptism is not the gospel but is faith in action....and it's my belief that this is why it is necessary for salvation, because without faith it is impossible to please God, and the faith that shows itself through action is the kind that James spoke of in his letter.

However, I'm not sure about the last part....we are commanded to believe in Christ, and thus our obedience to that command is necessary. It includes "all of the above" with respect to an active faith, genuine turn around of our hearts...repentance, confession and also that simple demonstration of faith in action...baptism.

And I do not think that the command to believe in Jesus in a way that we respond to with faith in action is a works based salvation....it's just doing what Christ asked us to do.

[3AM]

From the pen of the late great champion of the faith, G.C. Brewer...



But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)

I think that as long as people fail to study the Bible correctly, that any hope of unity is out of the question.

[zoonance]

From the pen of the late great champion of the faith, G.C. Brewer...



But will the denominations ever be united?  Will they ever be one?  I answer unhesitatingly, No.  The denominations will never be one.  He who hopes for that has a vain hope.  He who works for it and prays for it works and prays uselessly.  I don't hope for it, work for it, or pray for it.  Now I hope and pray that the time will come when there will be no denominations, but I do not hope to see all the denominations federate or merge into one gigantic organization, one great denomination.  No, indeed, I don't want to see that and never expect anybody else to see that.

                                                        - G.C. Brewer (1949)

I think that as long as people fail to study the Bible correctly, that any hope of unity is out of the question.

How does one study the Bible correctly?   This would unify us all.

[stevehut]

How does one study the Bible correctly?   This would unify us all.

I suppose the first step would be for all of us to study the Bible, period.

Which most Christians, frankly, don't do, in any meaningful depth.

[stevehut]

Wow, I sure seem to have a gift for shutting down threads.

Either I've convinced everyone of my view, or they're tired of arguing with me.  

[blituri]

Maybe you could get the 146 official Baptist denominations to unite.  That would help.

As a matter of fact, there is some progress: after the  First Great American Awakening there were now 4 instead of 1 Quaker denomination and about 321 other  groups:  most of these were some form of  Baptist.

Now, that we have only 146 maybe we need a few more centuries.

[Seriousseeker]

Don't confuse "union" with "unity".  Two different things.

Right!  That is the real issue.  Unity is a fellowship in accord with the Word and devotion to Christ as a universal testimony in the world.  It doesn't exist fully, though some Christains are working at it.  Unions are simply mergers, and that is not the mind of God, as I see it.

- 1Watchman