The Spiritual Sword - July 2008 Issue

[Lee Freeman]

lee,

First, the gospel must be obeyed.  The DB&R alone are facts, and facts cannot be obeyed.  Only commands can be obeyed.

Second, Paul rebuked Peter when he "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (Galations 2:14).  Nothing, nothing in the DB&R alone provides any teaching that Peter was violating.

You claim the DB&R alone is the gospel, but you need more teaching than that to even get a person saved!  Alone, the DB&R leaves one lost, hopeless, and unsaved.

But of course, claiming the DB&R is the gospel allows any false teacher to claim the mantle, "Gospel Preacher".

Doesn't it?

Robert G

It's interesting how differently people can read a text.  I've always thought it read to live life in light of the truth of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus.  Kind of like a preacher gently reminding the mourners at a funeral that we need to rejoice and not mourn at the death of a believer.  That would be acting in accordance to the truth of the gospel.

I completely agree here.

Pax.

[OkiMar]

I have to admit the the topic " Time to Retire or Resign" sounded promising.

If you will PM me your mailing address, I will be happy to send you a copy of the current issue.  Actually, I'll send you a set of the last 4 or 5 most recent issues.

This offer is available to anyone.

Robert G

If they have the guts they would put it out on the net for all to see.

I don't think a lack of guts has anything to do with not putting the articles online.  From what I understand, the cost of the subscriptions (only $8 per year) pays for the publishing fees of the present circulation rate.  There are still a lot of people who prefer to read a hard copy rather than electronic copies.  Also, they believe that copies will be passed along more readily if they maintain the publication rather than revert to electronic versions.  There is nothing wrong with that decision whatsoever.

[Dennis]

I have to admit the the topic " Time to Retire or Resign" sounded promising.

If you will PM me your mailing address, I will be happy to send you a copy of the current issue.  Actually, I'll send you a set of the last 4 or 5 most recent issues.

This offer is available to anyone.

Robert G

If they have the guts they would put it out on the net for all to see.

I don't think a lack of guts has anything to do with not putting the articles online.  From what I understand, the cost of the subscriptions (only $8 per year) pays for the publishing fees of the present circulation rate.  There are still a lot of people who prefer to read a hard copy rather than electronic copies.  Also, they believe that copies will be passed along more readily if they maintain the publication rather than revert to electronic versions.  There is nothing wrong with that decision whatsoever.

Sorry, not buying it.  If they want to charge a break even price for those who want a hard copy, fine. But they already have a website, so the cost of adding the articles has got to be trivial.

I have to ask what the purpose of the publication is.  Is it to persuade and convict or is it to bolster the reputations of the authors among their own kind.  If the purpose is to truly "get the word out" then I cannot conceive a reason for not publishing as widely and openly as possible.  Maybe there is another reason [beside avoiding scrutiny] for not putting the articles out there, but I cannot think of one.  I don't often agree with the STOP folks on substantive matters, but at least I respect their willingness to step up and participate in the discussion.

[mistergus]

lee,

First, the gospel must be obeyed.  The DB&R alone are facts, and facts cannot be obeyed.  Only commands can be obeyed.

Second, Paul rebuked Peter when he "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (Galations 2:14).  Nothing, nothing in the DB&R alone provides any teaching that Peter was violating.

You claim the DB&R alone is the gospel, but you need more teaching than that to even get a person saved!  Alone, the DB&R leaves one lost, hopeless, and unsaved.

But of course, claiming the DB&R is the gospel allows any false teacher to claim the mantle, "Gospel Preacher".

Doesn't it?

Robert G

It's interesting how differently people can read a text.  I've always thought it read to live life in light of the truth of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus.  Kind of like a preacher gently reminding the mourners at a funeral that we need to rejoice and not mourn at the death of a believer.  That would be acting in accordance to the truth of the gospel.

C'mon...

There is nothing in the DB&R alone to indicate how one should live or not live.

These vague, non-substantive statements...they add nothing meaningful to a discussion.

Paul rebuked Peter for not acting "according to the truth of the gospel...".  The DB&R alone provide no principles or teachings that Peter could have been violating.

The "gospel" is not simply the DB&R. It is the entire will and revelation of Jesus Christ.

Robert G

[marc]

lee,

First, the gospel must be obeyed.  The DB&R alone are facts, and facts cannot be obeyed.  Only commands can be obeyed.

Second, Paul rebuked Peter when he "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (Galations 2:14).  Nothing, nothing in the DB&R alone provides any teaching that Peter was violating.

You claim the DB&R alone is the gospel, but you need more teaching than that to even get a person saved!  Alone, the DB&R leaves one lost, hopeless, and unsaved.



Robert G

It's interesting how differently people can read a text.  I've always thought it read to live life in light of the truth of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus.  Kind of like a preacher gently reminding the mourners at a funeral that we need to rejoice and not mourn at the death of a believer.  That would be acting in accordance to the truth of the gospel.

C'mon...

There is nothing in the DB&R alone to indicate how one should live or not live.

These vague, non-substantive statements...they add nothing meaningful to a discussion.

Paul rebuked Peter for not acting "according to the truth of the gospel...".  The DB&R alone provide no principles or teachings that Peter could have been violating.

The "gospel" is not simply the DB&R. It is the entire will and revelation of Jesus Christ.

Robert G

Really?  Have you read Colossians 3?  Romans 6?  The death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ is the very foundation for the way we should live!

You're letting your over-organized doctrines of men get in the way of the real significance of the gospel.  What you teach--what I've heard for most of my life--substitutes holiness for a legal code that requires far, far less commitment.  To me, your way sounds like the easy way out, a way that allows a person to be a Christian without being changed by Christ.

[mistergus]

Really?  Have you read Colossians 3?  Romans 6?  The death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ is the very foundation for the way we should live!

Get real...

You're undermining your own premise.

The death, burial, and resurrection ALONE say nothing about the way we are to live.  In fact, you're making my point by shifting to other scriptures in an effort to justify your beliefs.  You can't make a case with the DB&R alone.

Alone, the DB&R alone don't even tell us we need to repent at all, much less how we are to live.

Again...the "gospel" is the entire will and revelation of Jesus Christ.

Robert G

[marc]

Really?  Have you read Colossians 3?  Romans 6?  The death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ is the very foundation for the way we should live!

Get real...

You're undermining your own premise.

The death, burial, and resurrection ALONE say nothing about the way we are to live.  In fact, you're making my point by shifting to other scriptures in an effort to justify your beliefs.  You can't make a case with the DB&R alone.

Alone, the DB&R alone don't even tell us we need to repent at all, much less how we are to live.

Then your gospel's pretty weak.  Mine tells me to conform to the DBR and my life changes.  I'm using the New Testament, btw, what book are you using?

Perhaps you should stop teaching for doctrine the commandments of men and go by the Bible.  I listed a couple of passages earlier, but your theology demands you shrug them off when used in this context, I guess. 

[Jimbob]

The DBR say nothing about how we should live?

 

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends." Jn. 15:12 ESV

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." I Jn. 3:16 ESV

See the connection?  See the application to our lives?

[mistergus]

The DBR say nothing about how we should live?

 

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends." Jn. 15:12 ESV

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." I Jn. 3:16 ESV

See the connection?  See the application to our lives?

Alone, this would be woefully inadequate.  Nothing here about how to be saved, or that we are to live lives of holiness.

Again, nothing here (alone) even teaches us that we must repent.

Using the DB&R alone leaves you with next to nothing to say.  Certainly nothing to show one how to be saved.

And you call that good news...

Robert G

[Barabbas]

Really?  Have you read Colossians 3?  Romans 6?  The death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ is the very foundation for the way we should live!

Get real...

You're undermining your own premise.

The death, burial, and resurrection ALONE say nothing about the way we are to live.  In fact, you're making my point by shifting to other scriptures in an effort to justify your beliefs.  You can't make a case with the DB&R alone.

Alone, the DB&R alone don't even tell us we need to repent at all, much less how we are to live.

Again...the "gospel" is the entire will and revelation of Jesus Christ.

Robert G

I don't entirely disagree with you Robert.  There is much good news with the entire message of Christ.  However your vision of the gospel seems to pervert it with some kind of law, and that seems to be Good News gone bad.  There is enough in Paul's writings to find your argument unconvincing. 

Saying that the DB&R is not the foundation of the gospel is kind of like saying a car stops running because the gas gauge points to empty - it's not the gauge... it's the gas!

The Death, Burial, and Resurrection is a world view that you build your actions around.  Paul makes a great point about this in 1 Corinthians 15 when he argues this from a negative angle.  What is the resurrection were not true?  How should we act if it were just a big lie?
 
"Let us eat and drink,
      for tomorrow we die."

Paul defines the gospel about as clearly as it can be in the first part of the chapter.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

All actions proceed out of that foundational truth - this is the Gospel.  I've known some extremely conservative and extremely liberal Christians who still agree with this core belief.  Now I know some folks would like to add the five steps as being part of this gospel - but somehow that just doesn't ring true to me in light of scriptures.

[Jimbob]

The DBR say nothing about how we should live?

 

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends." Jn. 15:12 ESV

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." I Jn. 3:16 ESV

See the connection?  See the application to our lives?

Alone, this would be woefully inadequate.  Nothing here about how to be saved, or that we are to live lives of holiness.

Again, nothing here (alone) even teaches us that we must repent.

Using the DB&R alone leaves you with next to nothing to say.  Certainly nothing to show one how to be saved.

And you call that good news...

Robert G

You're missing the point.  You said that the DBR says nothing about how we should live and these passages clearly show that statement false.  Yes, the Scriptures elaborate on what laying down one's life will look like, but if you maintain the idea that the DBR teaching nothing in and of themselves about our lives, then you are at odds with the Scriptures above, plain and simple.

In your zeal to make your point, you've over-reached and left the truth of John 15 and 1st John 3 in the dust.

[Bon Voyage]

The DBR say nothing about how we should live?

 

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends." Jn. 15:12 ESV

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." I Jn. 3:16 ESV

See the connection?  See the application to our lives?

Alone, this would be woefully inadequate.  Nothing here about how to be saved, or that we are to live lives of holiness.

Again, nothing here (alone) even teaches us that we must repent.

Using the DB&R alone leaves you with next to nothing to say.  Certainly nothing to show one how to be saved.

And you call that good news...

Robert G

You use the word ALONE more than any "faith alone" Baptist.

[mistergus]

You use the word ALONE more than any "faith alone" Baptist.

I don't use the word "alone".  I correct the use of anything "alone".

Faith alone doesn't save...the DB&R alone is not the gospel...even Christ alone, without our response, cannot redeem us.

Now before everyone starts going beserk...

"Save yourselves from this crooked generation".

Robert G

[Jimbob]

Maybe you should examine your use of the word "nothing" as you have others' use of the word "alone?"

[marc]

Having been raised in this view, I think I can see how what is technically correct can lead to a limited, inadequate gospel.  Is there more to the gospel than just knowing that Jesus died, was buried, and was raised?  Yes.  However, saying that the DBR tells us nothing about how we should live misses the point of what the gospel is. The gospel can indeed be boiled down to the DBR because of the implications of this in our lives.

I mentioned Romans 6 and Colossians 3.  Here they are (although I'm sure these are familiar passages):

Romans 6 (the whole thing):

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This says it all.  The point of this chapter isn't that we must be baptized or that baptism is the point where we contact Jesus' blood (that idea's not there, even though that's what I see it used for the most), but rather that we conform to the DBR through baptism and that this completely changes our life, now and forever.

Colossians 3: 

1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

What's the foundation of holy living?  That we have been risen with Christ and our old self is dead!  Our conforming to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ!

I remember hearing Christianity taught as a list of rules.  Jesus sacrifice on the cross was for our sins.  We were baptized to obtain that blood.  Then we lived according to the rules so we could go to Heaven.

The way these passages teach it is much more full, much more meaningful.  Jesus death, burial and resurrection, our baptism our living here on Earth and in Heaven are all tied together.  Everything that we do gets meaning from the DBR. We live fuller lives in Him because we conform to the basic gospel of Christ.  It's not rule-keeping; it's living out His life in ours!

I can't adequately explain this here; perhaps my use of exclamation marks will convey what my words can't. I remember when I first began to understand this.  My whole idea of Christianity changed.  If it had not; I don't know that I would have remained faithful, because it all seemed so meaninglessly ritualistic. But when we live in Christ and through Him, it's far, far from ritual.  It's real life!

And it's all abut the death, burial, and resurrection.  In a very real sense, this is the gospel!

[segell]

You use the word ALONE more than any "faith alone" Baptist.

I don't use the word "alone".  I correct the use of anything "alone".

Faith alone doesn't save...the DB&R alone is not the gospel...even Christ alone, without our response, cannot redeem us.

Now before everyone starts going beserk...

"Save yourselves from this crooked generation".

Robert G

That is a very scary theology!!  Keep the burden right where you want it, Robert G.  On your shoulders, saving yourself everyday.  Whew.

Remember Paul preached nothing more than Christ and Him crucified!

[DCR]

That is a very scary theology!!

Not to change the subject or even take up Robert's side at all, but this depends one's perspective.

In my mind, an equally scary theology is one that says that maybe I've been saved, or maybe I haven't, and there's nothing that can be done to change the outcome since God has already determined the outcome before I was even born.  If I think I've been saved, I could be deluding myself, since it's possible that I am not one of the chosen ones.

That, to me, is an utterly terrifying theology.

But, what's scary to one person may not be what's scary to another person.  At the end of the day, hopefully, we're all just striving to study God's word and gain a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter.

[Bon Voyage]

That is a very scary theology!!

Not to change the subject or even take up Robert's side at all, but this depends one's perspective.

In my mind, a very scary theology is one that says that maybe I've been saved, or maybe I haven't, and there's nothing that can be done to change the outcome since God has already determined the outcome before I was even born.  If I think I've been saved, I could be deluding myself, since it's possible that I am not one of the chosen ones.

That, to me, is an utterly terrifying theology.

But, what's scary to one person may not be what's scary to another person.  At the end of the day, hopefully, we're all just striving to study God's word and gain a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter.

I agree with Steve.  It is a scary theology, because the emphasis is on self.  What Robert is peddling is WBS.

[DCR]

I agree with Steve.  It is a scary theology, because the emphasis is on self.  What Robert is peddling is WBS.

No argument there... I originally meant to say "equally scary" theology (corrected).  But, there are extremes on both ends.

I guess my point was with regard to our arguing for doctrine by emotional appeal.  But, how amiable a doctrine seems to a person doesn't necessarily make it true or untrue... nor do all people necessarily have the same emotional response to a doctrine.

What's considered "scary" to one person may not be "scary" to another.  And, that seems to be driven by a whole set of factors and presuppositions that make up any given person's point of view or perspectives.

[marc]

That is a very scary theology!!

Not to change the subject or even take up Robert's side at all, but this depends one's perspective.

In my mind, a very scary theology is one that says that maybe I've been saved, or maybe I haven't, and there's nothing that can be done to change the outcome since God has already determined the outcome before I was even born.  If I think I've been saved, I could be deluding myself, since it's possible that I am not one of the chosen ones.

That, to me, is an utterly terrifying theology.

But, what's scary to one person may not be what's scary to another person.  At the end of the day, hopefully, we're all just striving to study God's word and gain a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter.

I agree with Steve.  It is a scary theology, because the emphasis is on self.  What Robert is peddling is WBS.

World Bible School?

[DCR]

I agree with Steve.  It is a scary theology, because the emphasis is on self.  What Robert is peddling is WBS.

World Bible School?

Probably that too.

But, in this case, I think Gary means "Works Based Salvation."

[Jimbob]

I agree with Steve.  It is a scary theology, because the emphasis is on self.  What Robert is peddling is WBS.

World Bible School?

Probably that too.

But, in this case, I think Gary means "Works Based Salvation."

Hey now, WBS doesn't teach WBS...know what I'm sayin'?  No use knockin' 'em down in the friendly fire.

[segell]

That is a very scary theology!!

Not to change the subject or even take up Robert's side at all, but this depends one's perspective.

In my mind, an equally scary theology is one that says that maybe I've been saved, or maybe I haven't, and there's nothing that can be done to change the outcome since God has already determined the outcome before I was even born.  If I think I've been saved, I could be deluding myself, since it's possible that I am not one of the chosen ones.

That, to me, is an utterly terrifying theology.

But, what's scary to one person may not be what's scary to another person.  At the end of the day, hopefully, we're all just striving to study God's word and gain a more accurate understanding of the truth of the matter.

DCR -

I think I see your point.  However, I don't know if you are assuming that I believe the following:

In my mind, an equally scary theology is one that says that maybe I've been saved, or maybe I haven't, and there's nothing that can be done to change the outcome since God has already determined the outcome before I was even born.  If I think I've been saved, I could be deluding myself, since it's possible that I am not one of the chosen ones.

because I don't.  I believe you know deep down inside the truth of your salvation.  And if, as I believe, you are indeed saved, then you have indeed been saved by God - not by what you did or continue to do.  There is no delusion in salvation, is there? 

Besides God's work in you, what else would you look to to determine if you are saved?  Remember what John said about us knowing if we are saved?

1 John 3:24......And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

God's Spirit is the assurance of our salvation.  He either lives in us or He doesn't.  That has nothing to do with theology, does it?

[zoonance]

The DBR say nothing about how we should live?

 

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends." Jn. 15:12 ESV

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." I Jn. 3:16 ESV

See the connection?  See the application to our lives?

Alone, this would be woefully inadequate.  Nothing here about how to be saved, or that we are to live lives of holiness.

Again, nothing here (alone) even teaches us that we must repent.

Using the DB&R alone leaves you with next to nothing to say.  Certainly nothing to show one how to be saved.

And you call that good news...

Robert G

You're missing the point.  You said that the DBR says nothing about how we should live and these passages clearly show that statement false.  Yes, the Scriptures elaborate on what laying down one's life will look like, but if you maintain the idea that the DBR teaching nothing in and of themselves about our lives, then you are at odds with the Scriptures above, plain and simple.

In your zeal to make your point, you've over-reached and left the truth of John 15 and 1st John 3 in the dust.

Almost any of us - in our zeal to make a point - over reach and leave the truth behind in the dust.

[Jimbob]

Yup, tis a truth.

[Lee Freeman]

Robert's hero GC Brewer defined the gospel as the death, burial and resurrection alone- see Paul in II Timothy 2:8. Because it is Jesus' death and resurrection alone that save us. Either that or Paul didn't know what he was talking about and Jesus' death and resurrection alone really weren't powerful enough to save us-it took something extra to get the job done. Which makes Christ's death meaningless.

In I Corinthians 1:17 Paul makes a distinction between the gospel and baptism when he says:

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Pax.

[JERRY C]

                                                                              




nuff said.

[marc]

I got a song that ain't got no melody....

[Dennis]

I got a song that ain't got no melody....

It certainly goes 'round in circles.

[stevehut]

Long live Billy Preston!