(Why become a Roman catholic.)

[stevehut]

But notice something crucial here: Mother Theresa wasn't denying her Catholic faith

And for all of my research, I can't tell that she ever claimed it, either.   

In the first citation, the Q's are by Sister Ann, and the A's are from MT.  Yes, it is in her own words.

Healy, if you need more context, that's why I cited my sources.  You have a computer, look it up!

[kensington]

Please give the chapter and verse IN THE BIBLE that is the "Hail Mary" prayer on the rosary...  not reply she gave or the words that the Angel used to bless her, neither of those are prayers given in the Bible as you stated for us to pray.  

But, they are statements made by Mary and the Angel that men put into a prayer and made the be the largest part of the rosary.  

Hmmmm, you seem to have a curious aversion to praying the Scriptures.  You must not pray the Psalms either, because there's no bcv that says we should pray the Psalms.

In fact, come to think of it, there're a whole buncha hymns you sing in worship that you'll have to throw out, because they use Scripture verses that not bcv says we are to pray.

Umm... Excuse me... but there is a difference in praying the Scriptures to GOD, and singing Psalms to GOD , and praying to other peoples who are not seated on the Throne of Heaven.  Who are not part of the Trinity in any way... and cannot answer prayer as they are not God at all.  Mock me if you wish... but that is just a plain FACT.

[CDHealy]

. . . but, there is no intended instruction in the ENTIRE BIBLE to pray to her.  Or to pray to her repeatedly on a rosary with rope, beads  . . .

And we don't pray to Mary.  No Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox who truly understands their faith and its practice does.

I know you really, really want to believe we worship and pray to Mary, cuz gosh it would so justify you and make you feel sooooo very good about yourself, but I'm sorry to disappoint: we just don't.

But, hey, go ahead and keep spreading your lies that we do.  It apparently gives your life meaning.  I can live with that.

. . . or by any means the same prayer over and over and over again around that circle of rope and beads.. that is just man made garble again.  Nothing about salvation or anything that behooves us in the body.  Not BIBLICALLY...  

I'm sorry, your apoplexy has gotten the better of your syntax.  I can't make heads nor tails of what you're fuming about here.

But yes, I do see where you took something that is in the bible and twisted it to become a large part of a man made religious practice... sadly..  

Wow.  You really are something.  Your focused energy at steadfastly maintaining a lid on that shut mind and your capacity to continue rejecting the truth is a wonder to behold.

[CDHealy]

But notice something crucial here: Mother Theresa wasn't denying her Catholic faith

And for all of my research, I can't tell that she ever claimed it, either.  

In the first citation, the Q's are by Sister Ann, and the A's are from MT.  Yes, it is in her own words.

Healy, if you need more context, that's why I cited my sources.  You have a computer, look it up!

Tell you what, do me one better: post the URL to the polemical website where you got it.

[kensington]

BTW... I think we are to pray "according" to the WORD of God...  I have no aversion to praying knowing scripture to the GOD of all Heaven and Earth...  None at all.

It's praying to all those side acts that I'm not interested in.     You just don't know from day to day who is on the throne in the Catholic church.

[CDHealy]

I think anyone who has seen me post enough here, knows I worship God with and without music, with and without song.  Just not with a Rosary, praying to the saints and the idolatry of the statues that you have in your services.  I have attended Catholic services... but I do not lay rose at the feet of the statue of Mary...   And I'm not going to start.  

Ooops.  You're ignorance is showing again: I'm Eastern Orthodox.  We don't do the statue thing.

[CDHealy]

Umm... Excuse me... but there is a difference in praying the Scriptures to GOD, and singing Psalms to GOD , and praying to other peoples who are not seated on the Throne of Heaven.  Who are not part of the Trinity in any way... and cannot answer prayer as they are not God at all.  Mock me if you wish... but that is just a plain FACT.

And it is just a plain FACT that we don't pray to anyone other than God.  We ask the intercessions of other living saints (those here on this earth and those in the bosom of Abraham), but, FACT, we don't pray to them.

Seriously: I know that you so desperately, really, really, really, REEEEEAAAALLLYYYY want us to pray to Mary and the other saints and angels, but .. . we just don't.  Sorry.  Hate to disappoint.

[kensington]

. . . but, there is no intended instruction in the ENTIRE BIBLE to pray to her.  Or to pray to her repeatedly on a rosary with rope, beads  . . .

And we don't pray to Mary.  No Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox who truly understands their faith and its practice does.

I know you really, really want to believe we worship and pray to Mary, cuz gosh it would so justify you and make you feel sooooo very good about yourself, but I'm sorry to disappoint: we just don't.

But, hey, go ahead and keep spreading your lies that we do.  It apparently gives your life meaning.  I can live with that.

. . . or by any means the same prayer over and over and over again around that circle of rope and beads.. that is just man made garble again.  Nothing about salvation or anything that behooves us in the body.  Not BIBLICALLY...  

I'm sorry, your apoplexy has gotten the better of your syntax.  I can't make heads nor tails of what you're fuming about here.

But yes, I do see where you took something that is in the bible and twisted it to become a large part of a man made religious practice... sadly..  

Wow.  You really are something.  Your focused energy at steadfastly maintaining a lid on that shut mind and your capacity to continue rejecting the truth is a wonder to behold.

Just a note...  though we disagree in our zeal, NOTICE... that I do not insult you on a personal level or take myself down to that with you... I did stand up to your lie about me... other than that, I can keep from getting all down in the mud at you on a personal level... How very full of grace of you.  You reveal the very lack of Christianity in your Relgious zeal.  

[stevehut]

The additional petition, "Holy Mary, Mother  of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death," is not, strictly speaking, a Scripture citation. 

So is isn't Scripture?

Thanks.   

[CDHealy]

It's praying to all those side acts that I'm not interested in.     You just don't know from day to day who is on the throne in the Catholic church.

Um, let me try to answer this one.  Okay, hold on, I think I have it, ooooohhh, it starts with, um, G, I think, or, no, maybe J, ooooohhhh, hold on, it's coming to me, just a minnit . . . .

God!  It's got to be God!

Am I right?  What do I win?

[stevehut]

We don't do the statue thing.

True.  Ortho's just bow down to 2-D pix instead. 

[CDHealy]

The additional petition, "Holy Mary, Mother  of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death," is not, strictly speaking, a Scripture citation. 

So is isn't Scripture?

Thanks.   

Hut, you're so impotent a debater that all you can do is take my quotes out of context.

No, as I very plainly said, it's not a Scripture citation, but it IS Scripture.

But hey thanks for playing.  Maybe next time.

[CDHealy]

We don't do the statue thing.

True.  Ortho's just bow down to 2-D pix instead. 

Don't forget the kissing.  We love to kiss those things, too.

I mean, I walk up to an icon of St. Benedict, and think, "Hey, bro!  God sure did some amazing stuff in you. [Smack]  I love how your l ife is a testimony to the Gospel!"

Yeah, Orthodoxy is absolutely Scriptural.  I love it.

[stevehut]

And it is just a plain FACT that we don't pray to anyone other than God. 

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.  Most beautiful art thou among women, and delightful is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

(Note: Say these words on knees with eyes closed while bowing before a statue.)

Of course, Cath's don't worship or pray to Mary.  What was I thinking?   

[kensington]

I think anyone who has seen me post enough here, knows I worship God with and without music, with and without song.  Just not with a Rosary, praying to the saints and the idolatry of the statues that you have in your services.  I have attended Catholic services... but I do not lay rose at the feet of the statue of Mary...   And I'm not going to start.  

Ooops.  You're ignorance is showing again: I'm Eastern Orthodox.  We don't do the statue thing.

I believe I'd have to really care what you do personally for this to matter in a "Catholic" discussion...  you are defending the Catholic practices.. that is what I speak to, the idea that you can't do it without calling people ignorant and insulting them just vindicates me all the more...  

You have revealed in many of your posts that you don't have any idea of what I truly believe, what I do and do not do in worship and practice concerning Love... and yet, you still call me ignorant.   I don't believe that I have to ONLY worship with music but you implied I could not attend a church where it was not allowed... which is simply not true.  

The "Hail Mary" is a prayer... asking a live person to pray for you to GOD.. and having to speak to someone who is not here, through prayer, to ask them to take your prayers to Jesus is praying.  It's only NOT praying if you can ask them here without praying to them to do it.  Were you to ask me to pray for you, you would not  1. Hold beads to aid you  2. You would not stand next to me and ask me 5 times in a row...  with glowing accolades to whom I am in Christ.  

I fear the largest mistake the Catholic Religion may have made is to not teach their people what PRAYER really is.  Too Too Sad.

[kensington]

The additional petition, "Holy Mary, Mother  of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death," is not, strictly speaking, a Scripture citation. 

So is isn't Scripture?

Thanks.   

Hut, you're so impotent a debater that all you can do is take my quotes out of context.

No, as I very plainly said, it's not a Scripture citation, but it IS Scripture.

But hey thanks for playing.  Maybe next time.

Hey... don't you think that you are taking this to a low level of insults that if you have a strong debate for, you really don't need?

[kensington]

And it is just a plain FACT that we don't pray to anyone other than God. 

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.  Most beautiful art thou among women, and delightful is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

(Note: Say these words on knees with eyes closed while bowing before a statue.)

Of course, Cath's don't worship or pray to Mary.  What was I thinking?   

CD may not pray this to Mary with a Statue.. but the Catholics do...  I know those who Pray to her picture, and with beads, and to statues and without any object to aid them... they all pray to Mary when they "PRAY" this "PRAYER"....   

[kensington]

BTW... STEVE...   I wanted to tell you... I've watched you these pages bringing up points, asking questions and discussing ideas and not once insulting or trying to debase CD as he did you and I.    Thank you.  Be Blessed brother for the evidence of grace rests in your case.  It is a witness to me this day.  Keep the faith. Peace.

[CDHealy]

No matter how many times you say it, no matter how badly you want it to be true: Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not pray to Mary.  We ask her intercessions.  We do not pray to her.

By the way, Steve-o, you've changed the text of the prayer.  Not very clever.

What I find so laughable is that you all mention the closed eyes, the repetitious praying.  Ever seen most Protestant youth group worship services?  Why, sometimes they even raise their hands and sway!  Eyes closed, repeating the same chorus again and again and again.

If that's okay, then why can't I repeat any of my prayers?

Ooooo, I have the answer: Because you don't care about the truth.  You don't care about Christian charity.  All you care about is your little polemical agenda.

It's funny, because you both should know better.

Yes, I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian defending Roman Catholics.  Ain't that somethin'? I mean, aren't us Orthodox and them Catholics in schism?  What is it that is always thrown out to me: if you and the Romans can't get together, don't expect us to believe either of you are the Church?  And yet here I am going toe-to-toe with folks who are manifestly clueless about what they assert regarding the Roman Catholic Church.  Why?  Because when my brother and sister in Christ is falsely slandered and judged to be an idolator and going to hell and so forth, it's my obligation to stand up for them and for the truth.

So fine, beat on that "Catholics are going to hell," "Catholics are idolators," "the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon" drum all you want.  I've held up my responsibility, and will, but you all will have to answer for your lies and deception and judgmentalism.

Kensington has her feathers ruffled because I've stated a fact: she *is* ignorant.  Not ignorant as an insult (I didn't say "stupid"), but ignorant as in "ignores the truth," has no knowledge of the facts.

Steve is a typical Protestant polemicizer: cutting words and phrases out of context, distorting their meaning and creating a straw man.  Heck he's done it time and again on my posts, and they're short enough.

So, stew in your juices, mates.  The truth always wins.

[Circuitridingpreacher]

Paul clearly and emphatically states he has fully preached "the gospel of Christ" with nary a mention of Mary. Now if the Apostle Paul deems her not worth mentioning in the full preaching of the gospel, what makes you think she is central to it?

Rom 15:19....I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

And not a mention of the mother of God "so-called" anywhere....

And on what basis do you think the New Testament contains all the words St. Paul ever spoke or wrote on the matter?

The New Testament doesn't mention a lot of things.  So what.  Silence doesn't prove anything.  It's, well, gosh, silent.

The problem really is that both the Papal and the Orthodox 'gospel' begin with the book of Matthew and end with the book of John, at the expense of all the other books of the Bible.....

Yeah, cuz we just thought all those commentaries by John Chrysostom, or by Theophylact, or the expostion of the New Testament by Irenaeus, weren't worth preserving at all.  Don't know how they got passed around and how we still have them today.  Shore is a missturry.

This is the level of arguments that you make a stand for the eternity of your soul on?

Paul also didn't say that "jumping up and down three times and clicking your heals" was central to the gospel of Christ either, do you want to add that now too? Or maybe since the Bible is silent on it, you just want to make wearing a white shirt three times a week "central to the gospel" too. Meanwhile it's off to hell.....

If you can't understand the Bible then check the commentaries that you seem to trust more than an apostle and see why Paul didn't mention Mary. If she was "central to the gospel" the commentaries must go to great depths in explaining her utter absence from all the epistles, including those of the so-called first pope. Were her centrality actually real, it would be hard to imagine it going so un-noticed by the apostles....


CRP

[sopranette]

For the record, I don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, nor do I believe all Protestants are going to heaven.  I have been following this thread, and I see misunderstandings on both sides.

love,

Sopranette

[Snargles]

No matter how many times you say it, no matter how badly you want it to be true: Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not pray to Mary.  We ask her intercessions.  We do not pray to her.

If I want you to make an intercession for me I can send you an email or call you on the phone and ask you.

If I want Mary to interceed for me I can't phone her and I don't know her email address. What do you call the manner in which you request something of Mary if not prayer? Is your definition of prayer different than that used by the rest of us?

[CDHealy]

This is the level of arguments that you make a stand for the eternity of your soul on?

Funny thing, that, the eternity of my soul is not staked on any "level of arguments" whatsoever: it's wholly staked on the Lord's mercy.  Period.  End of story.

Statements like yours above are why Protestants look an awful lot like Gnostics at times.

Paul also didn't say that "jumping up and down three times and clicking your heals" was central to the gospel of Christ either, do you want to add that now too? Or maybe since the Bible is silent on it, you just want to make wearing a white shirt three times a week "central to the gospel" too. Meanwhile it's off to hell.....

You've missed (or intentionally misconstrued) the point.  Your notion that "if it ain't in Scripture . . ." is a logical fallacy: the argument from ignorance.  It also imbibes of the fallacy of equivocation: just what is meant by "centrality."

Mary is central to the Incarnation accounts of Matthew and Luke.  She is one of the central figures at the Crucifixion.  She also is there in the account of the beginning of the Church.  Three of the essential moments of salvation in the life of the Incarnate God and his Church have Mary there at the center: indeed, the Incarnation itself happened because Mary is the blessed one, rather, who hears and obeys the word of God.

We have more evidence of the centrality of Mary to the Gospel than we do of the doctrine of the Trinity: and yet none of us would jettison the doctrine of the Trinity just because the percentage of verses is small or because it isn't as explicit as we modernists want it to be.

So I have solid biblical evidence for the centrality of Mary to the Gospel and her place in the Church.

But just because the Bible doesn't detail how the early Church interacted with Mary before and after her death means nothing in and of itself.

If you can't understand the Bible then check the commentaries that you seem to trust more than an apostle and see why Paul didn't mention Mary.

St. Paul doesn't mention a lot of things that are in the Gospels: the baptism of Christ, the Transfiguration, the feeding of the 5000, the cleansing of the Temple, the temptations in the wilderness, the washing of the Apostles' feet.  Guess those just aren't important at all.  Might as well rip those out of the Scriptures, huh?

If she was "central to the gospel" the commentaries must go to great depths in explaining her utter absence from all the epistles, including those of the so-called first pope. Were her centrality actually real, it would be hard to imagine it going so un-noticed by the apostles....

Well, the commentaries must go to great lengths to explain why St. Paul didn't mention all those central events in Jesus' life.

Sorry, your ignorance fallacy just won't fly.  But keep trying.  Maybe you'll find something that will stick one day.

[CDHealy]

If I want you to make an intercession for me I can send you an email or call you on the phone and ask you.

So, you don't have to see me, I never have to explicitly and clearly reply to the email, I can never prove you actually got the email, nor ever actually prove you are, indeed, praying for me--and how is that different from my asking Mary to pray for me?

If I want Mary to interceed for me I can't phone her and I don't know her email address. What do you call the manner in which you request something of Mary if not prayer?

Intercession.  It's what Christians do for one another.  And according to Revelation and Hebrews it doesn't just stop when Christians go to be with the Lord.

Is your definition of prayer different than that used by the rest of us?

Don't think so.  Prayer = calling on God, words directed to God.  I think that's what you mean, too.

[Snargles]

Quote from: Snargles on Today at 08:30:36 AM
If I want Mary to intercede for me I can't phone her and I don't know her email address. What do you call the manner in which you request something of Mary if not prayer?

Intercession.  It's what Christians do for one another.  And according to Revelation and Hebrews it doesn't just stop when Christians go to be with the Lord.


Quote from: Snargles on Today at 08:30:36 AM
Is your definition of prayer different than that used by the rest of us?


Don't think so.  Prayer = calling on God, words directed to God.  I think that's what you mean, too.

Now I think you miss the point. When I speak to the unseen God I go to him in prayer. When I speak or otherwise communicate with you, a person here on the world in the flesh like me, I use modern means of communication or sit down with you eyeball to eyeball. Mary is not here on the earth in the flesh. I can't use the same mechanisms to speak to her that I would use speaking to you. How do I ask Mary to intercede for me if not by prayer?
Isn't prayer the way we speak to those in the spirit realm?

[stevehut]

Healy, when I want to ask my friend to pray for me, we just have a normal conversation.

That's why I mentioned the closed eyes and kneeling before a statue during a Rosary.  Most Cath's tell me they're not praying TO Mary, but it sure looks like it.

Come on, do you understand my confusion here?

[stevehut]

Isn't prayer the way we speak to those in the spirit realm?

[DCR]

Is your definition of prayer different than that used by the rest of us?

Don't think so.  Prayer = calling on God, words directed to God.  I think that's what you mean, too.

In that case, how is calling on Mary, words directed to Mary (or other physically deceased saints)... not "prayer"?

By the way, comparing this to communication with folks who are still physically with us on earth, asking them to pray for us (whether in person, by phone, by email, etc.) is just not very convincing.  I know that comparison is often made.  But, it's a pretty ludicrous apples to oranges comparison to the rest of us. 

And, before you say it, I'm not suggesting that the saved but physically deceased saints are not still spiritually "living," by the way.  That's not the point.  The point is that they are in a different realm... and, we're talking about contacting them in that other realm.  But, I don't need to prove that they're not "with us" in the same sense that the physically living are still "with us."  I'm sure you can understand why contacting those who have passed on gives the heebie jeebies to those of use who are not used to this.

[CDHealy]

Now I think you miss the point. When I speak to the unseen God I go to him in prayer. When I speak or otherwise communicate with you, a person here on the world in the flesh like me, I use modern means of communication or sit down with you eyeball to eyeball.

No, my point still holds.  Think of it this way.  I have a blog.  I interact with some of my readers on my blog, but there are readers of my blog, whom I don't know, have never seen, and, in fact, as far as I know, I can't even prove their existence.  My only "connection" to them is electronic.  Yet, when I put up my prayer request on my blog, I can have confidence that they know of my request and are praying for me.

Or think of prayer chains: who many people whom I would never meet, do not know, and will never meet and know, are praying for me because I asked it?

Mortal life/Being with the Lord considerations (legitimate ones, I add) aside: for all intents and purposes there is no difference between that and my asking the prayers of the saints.  That was my point.

You are stressing the possibility of physical interaction with those living in this mortal life.  My point is that I can still ask prayers of those with whom I have no possibility of any interaction whatsoever and have confidence that they are praying for me.

Since those who've gone to be with the Lord--according to Revelation and Hebrews--are aware of what goes on here and do intercede for us, well, I'm just following the Scripture and know I can ask their prayers for me.

Mary is not here on the earth in the flesh. I can't use the same mechanisms to speak to her that I would use speaking to you. How do I ask Mary to intercede for me if not by prayer? Isn't prayer the way we speak to those in the spirit realm?

Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.  This equivocation on the term is what is causing the problem.  That is why I am careful in my terminology to distinguish what I mean: prayer is what we ask of God, intercessions are what we ask of the saints (those living in this mortal life and those living with Christ).  For me personally, I could care less if you call both prayer.  I know what I mean, and I know I don't ask Mary for the things only God can give.  And I know that I don't worship Mary, I worship God.  Period.

But, I try not to needlessly cause controversy, so I carefully distinguish my terminology to say what I mean and mean what I say.

furthermore, this division of reality into "spirit realm" or "heaven" and "this life," is NOT biblical.  Read Hebrews and Revelation again.  There is only one storey in this universe, not a dual reality.  The saints and angels are all around us now, as we work and sleep and spend time with our family.  Sometimes, if God grant, we can "see" this full reality.  Just like Elijah and his servant in 2 Kings.

[CDHealy]

Healy, when I want to ask my friend to pray for me, we just have a normal conversation.

And that's pretty much how I ask the saints to pray for me.

That's why I mentioned the closed eyes and kneeling before a statue during a Rosary.  Most Cath's tell me they're not praying TO Mary, but it sure looks like it.

Come on, do you understand my confusion here?

I do understand your confusion.  I don't understand your unwillingness to listen to what we say and accept that we know better what's going on in our hearts and minds than you do.

[CDHealy]

In that case, how is calling on Mary, words directed to Mary (or other physically deceased saints)... not "prayer"?

How is calling on your brother Fred at the coffee shop, words directed to Fred, not prayer?

By the way, comparing this to communication with folks who are still physically with us on earth, asking them to pray for us (whether in person, by phone, by email, etc.) is just not very convincing.  I know that comparison is often made.  But, it's a pretty ludicrous apples to oranges comparison to the rest of us. 

How so?  Defend your disconnect.  Where, precisely, does the comparison fail?  (My guess is that you are preserving an Manichean dualism about body and spirit, which you confirm below.)

And, before you say it, I'm not suggesting that the saved but physically deceased saints are not still spiritually "living," by the way.  That's not the point.  The point is that they are in a different realm... and, we're talking about contacting them in that other realm.  But, I don't need to prove that they're not "with us" in the same sense that the physically living are still "with us."  I'm sure you can understand why contacting those who have passed on gives the heebie jeebies to those of use who are not used to this.

How are they not with us?  Does not heaven, and its citizens, surround us all as we live and move and have our being?  Or do you relegate heaven to somehwere "up there" or "out there" far away from us?  And where do you get biblical support for that?

Refer again to Elijah and his servant in 2 Kings, or to God's dialogue with the devil in Job, or to St. Paul's comments on the "powers of the air."  If the demons inhabit "the air" does it make sense to say that God and his angels and saints do not?

[DCR]

In that case, how is calling on Mary, words directed to Mary (or other physically deceased saints)... not "prayer"?

How is calling on your brother Fred at the coffee shop, words directed to Fred, not prayer?

...because "Fred," assuming he is still physically living and breathing, is still physically present with us.  We know he can interact with us in our physical reality.  I can talk to him, and he can talk back.  He's still with us in that sense.  He isn't dead and buried yet (at which point, I won't know whether he will even be able to hear my attempts to contact him from beyond the grave... wherever his spirit resides at that point).

By the way, comparing this to communication with folks who are still physically with us on earth, asking them to pray for us (whether in person, by phone, by email, etc.) is just not very convincing.  I know that comparison is often made.  But, it's a pretty ludicrous apples to oranges comparison to the rest of us. 

How so?  Defend your disconnect.  Where, precisely, does the comparison fail?  (My guess is that you are preserving an Manichean dualism about body and spirit, which you confirm below.)

LOL.  Manichean dualism?  Is that what it is?  Come on, Clifton.  We're not talking about mere ideology.  It is patently obvious that someone who has physically died... is in a slightly different category from someone who is still physically living.  I don't actually have to defend that point, do I?  No defense is needed.  I can explain to a five-year-old that Grandma is no longer with us, and he'll know that he can't interact with her as he once did.

And, before you say it, I'm not suggesting that the saved but physically deceased saints are not still spiritually "living," by the way.  That's not the point.  The point is that they are in a different realm... and, we're talking about contacting them in that other realm.  But, I don't need to prove that they're not "with us" in the same sense that the physically living are still "with us."  I'm sure you can understand why contacting those who have passed on gives the heebie jeebies to those of use who are not used to this.

How are they not with us?  Does not heaven, and its citizens, surround us all as we live and move and have our being?  Or do you relegate heaven to somehwere "up there" or "out there" far away from us?  And where do you get biblical support for that?

Refer again to Elijah and his servant in 2 Kings, or to God's dialogue with the devil in Job, or to St. Paul's comments on the "powers of the air."  If the demons inhabit "the air" does it make sense to say that God and his angels and saints do not?

We are shown in the Bible where God speaks to people or that people pray to God.  Angels are indeed "sent" by God (and, notice that these encounters are initiated by God and/or the angels).  I'm not sure what the relevancy of God's interaction with the devil is... or what the details of the other references you allude to demonstrate, for that matter.

The issue of people making attempts to contact the dead is addressed in the Bible... which seems to only be condemned from what I can tell.  I'm not aware of any examples where people were encouraged to contact the physically dead (specifically to contact anyone other than God)... or where someone's contact of the dead was described as a good thing.

I'm sure we might go around in circles.  But, what you're saying is pretty unconvincing to me.

[CDHealy]

The saints offer prayers for us in heaven:

Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. (Revelation 8:3-4 NKJV)

Those in heaven are aware of what is going on in our lives:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The saints offer prayers for us in heaven:

Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. (Revelation 8:3-4 NKJV)

Those in heaven are aware of what is going on in our lives:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

[DCR]

The saints offer prayers for us in heaven:

Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. (Revelation 8:3-4 NKJV)

For one thing, I'm not so sure that the "prayers of the saints" being referred to there aren't referring to the prayers coming from physically still living Christians.  In fact, I assume this to be the case.  When you pray, when I pray, etc., our prayers may very well be among the prayers being spoken of there.  I don't assume that these are the current prayers of the physically deceased saints.  I assume that these are the prayers coming up from Christians still living on earth being described in that passage.  So, it doesn't seem to prove what you're saying.  Besides that, even if this is a reference to the current prayers of saints who have physically died... that doesn't say that living Christians are contacting those saints, and that these prayers are the result of living Christians asking these physically deceased saints to pray on their behalf... wherever and in whatever state their souls are while their physical bodies are in the grave.

Those in heaven are aware of what is going on in our lives:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Revelation 6:9-11 NKJV)

Well... for one thing... what these martyred saints are referring to is with reference to those still on earth who were guilty of murdering them.

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

That doesn't necessarily suggest that these individuals are able to see what is currently occurring on earth.  It is only their plea that God avenge their deaths on those apparently guilty of their deaths.  Whether those individuals are actually able to observe the current happenings on earth... I don't know.  And, it certainly doesn't say that they hear and respond to still physically living individuals' conversations with them.  That passage doesn't even speak to those issues, as far as I can tell.  This is all a far cry from saying that it is appropriate for physically living Christians to contact these martyred saints from beyond the grave.

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [i.e., the "dead" patriarchs mentioned in ch. 11] . . . (Hebrews 12:1)

Perhaps, this passage makes a better case that physically deceased saints are in some way able to observe our lives from beyond the grave.  That's an inference however, and I'm not so certain that this is what the writer of Hebrews is actually saying though.  In any case, the possibility that the physically deceased may or may not be watching us does not concern me.  That's quite a jump to say that it's appropriate for us to attempt to contact them though.

We, as Christians, dwell in the heavenly realms with the saints and the saints with us:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Beautiful depiction and idea the writer of Hebrews gives to us there... perhaps it's a figurative description of a spiritual truth.  In any case, that still doesn't say that it's acceptable for the living to attempt to communicate with the physically dead (even if they are in some situation that allows them to observe us).