Is pornography considered being "faithless" to your spouse??

[Supergirl9801]

And what exactly would you consider pornography??
My H and I are separated and I checked our computer history and found that he's been looking a pictures of "nude + busty" women on ebay.  That's what he actually searches ("nude + busty).  The pics are mostly 50's, 60's style pin up type posters but the women are naked from at least the waste up...sometimes fully.  I don't know how to feel about this.     I am separated from him due to his verbal abuse and he's claiming all these changes, yet I still see him doing this.  It started a few years ago and I innocently stumbled across it at that time and things were (as usual) rough in our relationship so I didn't say anything and blamed myself (as usual).  I kept my eye on it, thinking if it ever progressed further than that I'd say something about it.  It never did and even stopped for awhile, but now it's starting back up again. 

It's things like this that keep popping up that have me not believing his "sincere" attempts to show me he's changing.  I believe he's just manipulating me into coming back again.  I just wonder if this is considered being "faithless" to me and if it would be "in god's eyes" grounds for divorce.  Of course, I already feel I have those grounds considering he's a non-believer and kept telling me to leave.  But, of course, now he wants me back.  AT least I think so. 

[HRoberson]

And what exactly would you consider pornography??
My H and I are separated and I checked our computer history and found that he's been looking a pictures of "nude + busty" women on ebay.  That's what he actually searches ("nude + busty).  The pics are mostly 50's, 60's style pin up type posters but the women are naked from at least the waste up...sometimes fully.  I don't know how to feel about this.     I am separated from him due to his verbal abuse and he's claiming all these changes, yet I still see him doing this.  It started a few years ago and I innocently stumbled across it at that time and things were (as usual) rough in our relationship so I didn't say anything and blamed myself (as usual).  I kept my eye on it, thinking if it ever progressed further than that I'd say something about it.  It never did and even stopped for awhile, but now it's starting back up again. 

It's things like this that keep popping up that have me not believing his "sincere" attempts to show me he's changing.  I believe he's just manipulating me into coming back again.  I just wonder if this is considered being "faithless" to me and if it would be "in god's eyes" grounds for divorce.  Of course, I already feel I have those grounds considering he's a non-believer and kept telling me to leave.  But, of course, now he wants me back.  AT least I think so. 

"faithless" is probably too strong.

Violated a trust? Yes.

Have you tried a Christian marriage counselor? It might be worth your time.

My standard disclaimer: Christian therapist means a licensed marriage therapist with additional (formal) theological training. Not a Nouthetic Counselor, not a pastor that likes to "counsel."

[Supergirl9801]

Why is faithless to strong of a word?  Is he not "lusting" after someone else?? Is that not considered adultery?? Is that not then considered "faithless"??   

Yes, we have tried a christian licensed marriage counselor.  I thought she understood the concept of verbal abuse but she didn't and therfore approached the whole thing as "joint problems" in our marriage.  Not that I'm saying I'm perfect, but marriage counseling unfortunately doesn't usually work for couples with an abusive spouse.

He is currently supposedly going to counseling on his own.   We'll see.  I pray that will help but honestly unless he gets right with God and God performs a miracle in him (which I believe he could) then I doubt he will be able to change on his own to where it will be better for us staying together than divorcing.

It says in the Bible that some are not meant for the commitment of marriage.  I believe my H may be one of those. 

[Charles Sloan]

Divorcing should never even be considered an option short of infidelity (fornication, not lusting), or physical abuse. If he is trying to get help and make a change for the better you should be giving him support instead of placing expectations on him. If you really want this marriage to work then you need to do everything you can, not just expect him to do it all on his own.

I have been married almost 10 years now and we have had our ups and downs, but in the low times we both had to make it work. Sometimes she had to put in more than me and sometimes it was the other way around. All I'm saying is don't place the entire future of your marriage on his shoulders alone, that isn't fair nor is it right.

[cristals mama]

Divorcing should never even be considered an option short of infidelity (fornication, not lusting), or physical abuse. If he is trying to get help and make a change for the better you should be giving him support instead of placing expectations on him. If you really want this marriage to work then you need to do everything you can, not just expect him to do it all on his own.

I have been married almost 10 years now and we have had our ups and downs, but in the low times we both had to make it work. Sometimes she had to put in more than me and sometimes it was the other way around. All I'm saying is don't place the entire future of your marriage on his shoulders alone, that isn't fair nor is it right.

You have obviously never endured the spirit, heart, mind and soul crushing experience of consisitent verbal and emotional abuse, therefore you do not know what it does to a person which BTW is much worse then physical abuse!  Wounds inflicted physically heal, when your spirit and heart is destroyed day after day by another that does not heal so easily especially by staying in the atmosphere while the person doing the damage continues and is unrepentant thinking they do no wrong!

This is the problem I have experienced in the Christian community- they tell you stay work it out, don't put it all on him/her etc...  Well excuse me but if someone is telling you that you are worthless, stupid, cursing and degrading you day after day then it is on them and if they don't want to change then I will not believe even for a second that Jesus would have you just stay and deal with it!   I listened to that from other Christians (who had no personal experience) for years, I stayed because of the guilt they placed on me and because of it I now my heart has been crushed and turned completely cold toward my husband and I have stuggled without success to find joy in my life at all, not to mention what my daughter has seen and heard during this time.

So to tell someone to stay and give support to the abuser when you know nothing of the situation is advocating the destruction of that person from the inside out!  Also just in case you didn't know (which I know you don't obviously) those of us who have been/are in this situation have in 99% of case given nothing but support to their spouses and done everything we can over and over again, putting ourselves aside for years only to have the other person not do anything or take any steps (doing nothing he/she can) and having that too thrown back in our faces!!!!!

[Charles Sloan]

You have obviously never endured the spirit, heart, mind and soul crushing experience of consisitent verbal and emotional abuse, therefore you do not know what it does to a person which BTW is much worse then physical abuse!

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I have or haven't been through.

Wounds inflicted physically heal, when your spirit and heart is destroyed day after day by another that does not heal so easily especially by staying in the atmosphere while the person doing the damage continues and is unrepentant thinking they do no wrong!

From my experience hurtful words go both ways.

This is the problem I have experienced in the Christian community- they tell you stay work it out, don't put it all on him/her etc...  Well excuse me but if someone is telling you that you are worthless, stupid, cursing and degrading you day after day then it is on them and if they don't want to change then I will not believe even for a second that Jesus would have you just stay and deal with it!

You either didn't read my post or you know something that I don't. Cause from what I read her husband is trying to change and is seeking help, not calling her worthless, stupid, cursing and degrading her day after day. My point was if he sees the problem and is trying to do something about it still considering divorce isn't the right answer.

I listened to that from other Christians (who had no personal experience) for years, I stayed because of the guilt they placed on me and because of it I now my heart has been crushed and turned completely cold toward my husband and I have stuggled without success to find joy in my life at all, not to mention what my daughter has seen and heard during this time.

I'm sorry about your bad experiences, but my comments were not about you or your situation.

So to tell someone to stay and give support to the abuser when you know nothing of the situation is advocating the destruction of that person from the inside out! 

I know just what shes has said on here, nothing more or nothing less. My comments are simply my opinion based on that information. I am not advocating someones destruction, but I wont stand as an advocate of divorce when it can be avoided either.

Also just in case you didn't know (which I know you don't obviously) those of us who have been/are in this situation have in 99% of case given nothing but support to their spouses and done everything we can over and over again, putting ourselves aside for years only to have the other person not do anything or take any steps (doing nothing he/she can) and having that too thrown back in our faces!!!!!

Since I am just giving someone advice on a message board you don't need to vent all your pent up hostility toward me because you don't agree with me. I'm sorry for whatever is burning you up about what I said, but my comments are made in the best intentions and given with the most sincere concern for her and her marriage. I'm not throwing anything in anyone's face, but you could stand to consider your tone and your attitude when discussing issues like this with other Christians, since your entire post is way out of line.

[cristals mama]

You have obviously never endured the spirit, heart, mind and soul crushing experience of consisitent verbal and emotional abuse, therefore you do not know what it does to a person which BTW is much worse then physical abuse!

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I have or haven't been through.

Wounds inflicted physically heal, when your spirit and heart is destroyed day after day by another that does not heal so easily especially by staying in the atmosphere while the person doing the damage continues and is unrepentant thinking they do no wrong!

From my experience hurtful words go both ways.

This is the problem I have experienced in the Christian community- they tell you stay work it out, don't put it all on him/her etc...  Well excuse me but if someone is telling you that you are worthless, stupid, cursing and degrading you day after day then it is on them and if they don't want to change then I will not believe even for a second that Jesus would have you just stay and deal with it!

You either didn't read my post or you know something that I don't. Cause from what I read her husband is trying to change and is seeking help, not calling her worthless, stupid, cursing and degrading her day after day. My point was if he sees the problem and is trying to do something about it still considering divorce isn't the right answer.

I listened to that from other Christians (who had no personal experience) for years, I stayed because of the guilt they placed on me and because of it I now my heart has been crushed and turned completely cold toward my husband and I have stuggled without success to find joy in my life at all, not to mention what my daughter has seen and heard during this time.

I'm sorry about your bad experiences, but my comments were not about you or your situation.

So to tell someone to stay and give support to the abuser when you know nothing of the situation is advocating the destruction of that person from the inside out! 

I know just what shes has said on here, nothing more or nothing less. My comments are simply my opinion based on that information. I am not advocating someones destruction, but I wont stand as an advocate of divorce when it can be avoided either.

Also just in case you didn't know (which I know you don't obviously) those of us who have been/are in this situation have in 99% of case given nothing but support to their spouses and done everything we can over and over again, putting ourselves aside for years only to have the other person not do anything or take any steps (doing nothing he/she can) and having that too thrown back in our faces!!!!!

Since I am just giving someone advice on a message board you don't need to vent all your pent up hostility toward me because you don't agree with me. I'm sorry for whatever is burning you up about what I said, but my comments are made in the best intentions and given with the most sincere concern for her and her marriage. I'm not throwing anything in anyone's face, but you could stand to consider your tone and your attitude when discussing issues like this with other Christians, since your entire post is way out of line.

For one thing I have obviously not lived your life however from your words about your own marriage it seems you have had a regular marriage with ups and down, disagreements and so forth- I know this is not what Supergirl is talking about!

2)  Hurtful words can go both ways in a disagreement, but verbal abuse is something completely out of the category of just having a fight and saying something here and there that you might like to take back later.

3)  What she said is her husband is supposed to be seeking help.

4)  Your comments were obviously not about my situation but my experiences are relevant because I understand 1st hand what she is talking about (I'm sure she could tell you this herself) and I have care and concern for anyone in ths situation about what they are going through and what is said to them by others.

5)  I don't believe I vented any hostility to you and it was not my intention to insult you if you feel I did, but however best your intentions are unless you understand the intricasies of verbal and emotional abuse, advice given can cause someone to get themselves stuck into a situation that will soon become worse once the abuser knows they have the upper hand.

Also because I have experienced this I don't think my post is at all out of line- if Supergirl feels this way she can let me know and I will be happy to retract it and I did not say 'you' were throwing anything into anyone's face- my comments were about abuser's not you!

[Imabear]

A definition:

Verbal abuse is a pattern of behavior that can seriously interfere with one's positive emotional development and over time, can lead to significant detriment to one's self-esteem, emotional well-being and physical state. It has been further described as an ongoing emotional environment organized by the abuser for the purposes of control.

[Supergirl9801]

Charles,

Thank you for your good intentions.  However, crystal mama is absolutely correct.  Verbal abuse is much worse than physical.  Ask those who've been physically assaulted which they preferred (as if that's possible) and they will say the physical was easier to deal with than the verbal assaults.  I rarely post on this board b/c of these types of responses b/c most just don't "get it".  However, I try to keep my posts geared more toward seeking biblical opinions. 

It does create much more stress for someone enduring a verbally abusive relationship to have people tell her/him that they need to do everything they can to "make it work".  Like Cristalsmama said by the time we even realize we're the victims, it's usually long after we've spent years and years trying to "make it work".

Also your comment of "hurtful words go both ways" definately applies in normal marriages but is rarely the case in VA ones.  We are so afraid of every little thing we say or do that we NEVER purposely say something that we know would hurt our spouse for fear of their reaction.

You also mentioned that I said my H is trying to seek help and recognizes the problem so I shouldn't give up on him.  This as well is part of the abusive cycle.  They  from the mountain tops that they've "seen the light", the "error of their ways" and  for forgiveness....but  ::cryingtears::it's not true.  They use it as a tactic to suck us back into their lives (why do you think women stay so long with abusive spouses) and keep us in their control.  I remember, myself, watching talk shows when I was younger with women who'd been battered and thinking "why didn't you just leave", "I'd never put up with that".  NOT TRUE!!  It's easier than you think to get sweet talked and swept up in their charms.  In fact, my H and I used to joke that if it weren't for how totally sweet he could be, I'd never stay with him...and he'd laugh right along with it agreeing. 

As for your comment about "fornicating" vs. "lusting"...I'd love to know why you seem to view them differently?? 

Cristalsmama...thankyou for your support.

[HRoberson]

Why is faithless to strong of a word?  Is he not "lusting" after someone else?? Is that not considered adultery?? Is that not then considered "faithless"??   

Yes, we have tried a christian licensed marriage counselor.  I thought she understood the concept of verbal abuse but she didn't and therfore approached the whole thing as "joint problems" in our marriage.  Not that I'm saying I'm perfect, but marriage counseling unfortunately doesn't usually work for couples with an abusive spouse.

He is currently supposedly going to counseling on his own.   We'll see.  I pray that will help but honestly unless he gets right with God and God performs a miracle in him (which I believe he could) then I doubt he will be able to change on his own to where it will be better for us staying together than divorcing.

It says in the Bible that some are not meant for the commitment of marriage.  I believe my H may be one of those. 

Faithless indicates a complete lack of faithfulness, not a particular lapse in it. That is a large distinction. I do not know that viewing pornography is, by definition, adultery.

As long as we stay negative about potential successes, we can almost guarantee a negative outcome. Most couple issues are "joint problems," but not all. Which problem did you try to address in therapy, the porn problem, the verbal abuse, or something else?

[Charles Sloan]

As for your comment about "fornicating" vs. "lusting"...I'd love to know why you seem to view them differently??  ???

I won't really disagree with your opinions since it seems like your mind is already made up concerning what you are going to do, you really only seem to be looking for someone to either agree with or support your decision. So rather than wasting my time I will just say the reason I view lusting or "ἐπιθυμέω" and fornication or "πορνεία" differently is because they are two totally different words when used in the Bible.

[Imabear]

SuperGirl, I agree.  I used to wish H would just hit me.  It sounds sick, but it was true.   
He had cheated on me, so I had "biblical grounds" for divorce.  He did get help. He has changed, but many abusers won't change.  We do have arguments and he will say hurtful things, but not with the intensity of rage he used when he was verbally abusive.  I think it's a little hard to explain to those who haven't lived through it.

One thing that really bothered me was when a relative heard that H had cheated on me, his words to me were, "Now you can divorce him."  So it was okay for him to abuse me, but not cheat on me!  Yeah right!  Honestly, the verbal abuse was harder for me to forgive and recover from than him cheating on me, although both were hard to let go of.

[cristals mama]

Charles,

Thank you for your good intentions.  However, crystal mama is absolutely correct.  Verbal abuse is much worse than physical.  Ask those who've been physically assaulted which they preferred (as if that's possible) and they will say the physical was easier to deal with than the verbal assaults.  I rarely post on this board b/c of these types of responses b/c most just don't "get it".  However, I try to keep my posts geared more toward seeking biblical opinions. 

It does create much more stress for someone enduring a verbally abusive relationship to have people tell her/him that they need to do everything they can to "make it work".  Like Cristalsmama said by the time we even realize we're the victims, it's usually long after we've spent years and years trying to "make it work".

Also your comment of "hurtful words go both ways" definately applies in normal marriages but is rarely the case in VA ones.  We are so afraid of every little thing we say or do that we NEVER purposely say something that we know would hurt our spouse for fear of their reaction.

You also mentioned that I said my H is trying to seek help and recognizes the problem so I shouldn't give up on him.  This as well is part of the abusive cycle.  They  from the mountain tops that they've "seen the light", the "error of their ways" and  for forgiveness....but  ::cryingtears::it's not true.  They use it as a tactic to suck us back into their lives (why do you think women stay so long with abusive spouses) and keep us in their control.  I remember, myself, watching talk shows when I was younger with women who'd been battered and thinking "why didn't you just leave", "I'd never put up with that".  NOT TRUE!!  It's easier than you think to get sweet talked and swept up in their charms.  In fact, my H and I used to joke that if it weren't for how totally sweet he could be, I'd never stay with him...and he'd laugh right along with it agreeing. 

As for your comment about "fornicating" vs. "lusting"...I'd love to know why you seem to view them differently?? 

Cristalsmama...thankyou for your support.

You are welcome but no thanks is necessary, I am grateful for the love and support I finally found in others here and I am happy to be there for you or anyone else who has or is going through the pain that we are!

[cristals mama]

As for your comment about "fornicating" vs. "lusting"...I'd love to know why you seem to view them differently?? 

I won't really disagree with your opinions since it seems like your mind is already made up concerning what you are going to do, you really only seem to be looking for someone to either agree with or support your decision. So rather than wasting my time I will just say the reason I view lusting or "ἐπιθυμέω" and fornication or "πορνεία" differently is because they are two totally different words when used in the Bible.

what a terrible attitude- you won't waste your time because she is just looking for some to agree and support her.  Of course she is looking for someone to support her, she and all of us who have experienced this have gone through so much anguish and lack of support as it is!  Once upon a time all of us wanted nothing more than to have our marriages succeed and last forever with love, however that didn't happen because our spouses decided they preferred hate and selfishness instead!

As W8ing said, I also find it astounding that Christians have no excuse for adultery, but can overlook, disregard and even excuse abuse!   Even more why is it that this same treatment would be viewed with disgust by Christians when done to anyone else who is not that person's spouse whether it be out in the world or in church, but suddenly when it is done to their spouse it is just brushed off with disregard?  The story of the good samaritan comes to mind as this behavior by Christians is much like the priest and the Levite!

Where was it I wonder in the bible that Jesus abused anyone or said that it was ok to do so?  How do you think Jesus would look at someone who treats their spouse or anyone so ugly?  How would Jesus react to the victim?  I'll tell you what He would do, He would comfort her/him, not tell them- sorry it's no big deal, you are just looking for excuses so just go put up with it!

[cristals mama]

SuperGirl, I agree.  I used to wish H would just hit me.  It sounds sick, but it was true.   
He had cheated on me, so I had "biblical grounds" for divorce.  He did get help. He has changed, but many abusers won't change.  We do have arguments and he will say hurtful things, but not with the intensity of rage he used when he was verbally abusive.  I think it's a little hard to explain to those who haven't lived through it.

One thing that really bothered me was when a relative heard that H had cheated on me, his words to me were, "Now you can divorce him."  So it was okay for him to abuse me, but not cheat on me!  Yeah right!  Honestly, the verbal abuse was harder for me to forgive and recover from than him cheating on me, although both were hard to let go of.

You are so right w8ing, it is so sad how other who should be there for us instead view our situations and make us feel as though we are doing wrong for finally trying to help ourselves when no one else would be there!

[christianchick]

Divorcing should never even be considered an option short of infidelity (fornication, not lusting), or physical abuse.

I'm not recommending divorce to anyone but please think of this before you say he's not fornicating...

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

In God's eyes it IS fornication.

Supergirl, have you thought of trying another christian counselor? Maybe you would have better luck with another?

[Charles Sloan]

what a terrible attitude- you won't waste your time because she is just looking for some to agree and support her.

No, I don't want to waste my time arguing if they really aren't looking for opinions.

Of course she is looking for someone to support her, she and all of us who have experienced this have gone through so much anguish and lack of support as it is!  Once upon a time all of us wanted nothing more than to have our marriages succeed and last forever with love, however that didn't happen because our spouses decided they preferred hate and selfishness instead!

So you think divorce is the best answer, I just don't think divorce is the best solution.

As W8ing said, I also find it astounding that Christians have no excuse for adultery, but can overlook, disregard and even excuse abuse!   Even more why is it that this same treatment would be viewed with disgust by Christians when done to anyone else who is not that person's spouse whether it be out in the world or in church, but suddenly when it is done to their spouse it is just brushed off with disregard?  The story of the good samaritan comes to mind as this behavior by Christians is much like the priest and the Levite!

I agree no ones should overlook or disregard abuse of any kind.

Where was it I wonder in the bible that Jesus abused anyone or said that it was ok to do so?  How do you think Jesus would look at someone who treats their spouse or anyone so ugly?  How would Jesus react to the victim?  I'll tell you what He would do, He would comfort her/him, not tell them- sorry it's no big deal, you are just looking for excuses so just go put up with it!

When did I say it was okay to abuse people or say to just put up with it?

This is the reason I said I didn't want to continue this exchange because you are turning my posts into something where I am condoning abuse. I'm sorry but that just isn't the case.

[Charles Sloan]

Divorcing should never even be considered an option short of infidelity (fornication, not lusting), or physical abuse.

I'm not recommending divorce to anyone but please think of this before you say he's not fornicating...

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

In God's eyes it IS fornication.

Maybe you missed this post:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,28982.msg546843.html#msg546843

The word lusting in Mat 5:28 is different from the word fornication used in Mat 5:32.

So in Jesus made a clear distinction between the act of lusting and the act of fornication.

[HRoberson]

Divorcing should never even be considered an option short of infidelity (fornication, not lusting), or physical abuse.

I'm not recommending divorce to anyone but please think of this before you say he's not fornicating...

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

In God's eyes it IS fornication.

Supergirl, have you thought of trying another christian counselor? Maybe you would have better luck with another?

You of course, make the jump from "looking" to "lusting," which implies that you know the heart of another. The two are different, even if we don't think "looking" is possible.

But this doesn't really address the main question:

The "rules" that God has given are for me, not you.

I am not supposed to commit adultery
I am not supposed to lust

These are not given so that I can accuse you of doing either of those, or so that I can decide to divorce you if you even so much as look at a Playboy magazine.

My commitment is to remain faithful to you - that's my job. It is not my job to look for ways around my responsibilities.

But if we want to be legalistic about it, the two are different. Lusting is not adultery. Any indications to the contrary in Scripture are to reinforce God's expectations of our hearts - so that we have a better idea of who we were made to be.

[Supergirl9801]

You of course, make the jump from "looking" to "lusting," which implies that you know the heart of another. The two are different, even if we don't think "looking" is possible.

But this doesn't really address the main question:

The "rules" that God has given are for me, not you.

I am not supposed to commit adultery
I am not supposed to lust

These are not given so that I can accuse you of doing either of those, or so that I can decide to divorce you if you even so much as look at a Playboy magazine.

My commitment is to remain faithful to you - that's my job. It is not my job to look for ways around my responsibilities.

But if we want to be legalistic about it, the two are different. Lusting is not adultery. Any indications to the contrary in Scripture are to reinforce God's expectations of our hearts - so that we have a better idea of who we were made to be.

    What??? How can you say "lusting is not adultery" after reading this:  Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
      I don't get that...sorry!

No I have not tried another counselor and don't wish too, b/c I don't see true sincerity in him to want to change.  I don't see his "fruits", I still see manipulation and believe the only way for us to work on "us" is to come to the relationship as whole as we can each be by ourselves first, then begin to work on "us". 

I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with.

[Charles Sloan]

I pray that God will restore your marriage and shelter you and your family until that happens.

[cristals mama]

    What??? How can you say "lusting is not adultery" after reading this:  Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
      I don't get that...sorry!

No I have not tried another counselor and don't wish too, b/c I don't see true sincerity in him to want to change.  I don't see his "fruits", I still see manipulation and believe the only way for us to work on "us" is to come to the relationship as whole as we can each be by ourselves first, then begin to work on "us". 

I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with.

 you keep following how you feel God is leading you and do what you need to regain yourself again, your strength is wonderful and I admire you!  I am at my crossroads and I am currently packing to leave, I am scared out of my mind at all the changes and decisions that will have to be made and keep trying to cast out any doubts I have!  My husband knows I am going but still doesn't get the real why, he keeps talking about how this is a temporary situation that is happening because of money and how we will get a place together again in the summer of next year etc...  It doesn't matter how many times you say it and lay it all on the line, I don't understand how they can still not get it?  Is it a problem with mental instability or is it all part of the game?

Anyway, I am about to start all over again and am very intimidated by the prospect but I don't want to continue in this same mess for another 5 years either.  I admire your strength and determination and I hope to be more that way myself one day so keep going and doing what you need for you to be whole- they are not our responsibility it is up to them to choose to change we can't make them (took me a long time to realize) and we can't continue to be at the mercy of their bad choices and behavior either!

[cristals mama]

what a terrible attitude- you won't waste your time because she is just looking for some to agree and support her.

No, I don't want to waste my time arguing if they really aren't looking for opinions.

Of course she is looking for someone to support her, she and all of us who have experienced this have gone through so much anguish and lack of support as it is!  Once upon a time all of us wanted nothing more than to have our marriages succeed and last forever with love, however that didn't happen because our spouses decided they preferred hate and selfishness instead!

So you think divorce is the best answer, I just don't think divorce is the best solution.

As W8ing said, I also find it astounding that Christians have no excuse for adultery, but can overlook, disregard and even excuse abuse!   Even more why is it that this same treatment would be viewed with disgust by Christians when done to anyone else who is not that person's spouse whether it be out in the world or in church, but suddenly when it is done to their spouse it is just brushed off with disregard?  The story of the good samaritan comes to mind as this behavior by Christians is much like the priest and the Levite!

I agree no ones should overlook or disregard abuse of any kind.

Where was it I wonder in the bible that Jesus abused anyone or said that it was ok to do so?  How do you think Jesus would look at someone who treats their spouse or anyone so ugly?  How would Jesus react to the victim?  I'll tell you what He would do, He would comfort her/him, not tell them- sorry it's no big deal, you are just looking for excuses so just go put up with it!

When did I say it was okay to abuse people or say to just put up with it?

This is the reason I said I didn't want to continue this exchange because you are turning my posts into something where I am condoning abuse. I'm sorry but that just isn't the case.

Charles,
I never said divorce was the best answer but that may be the eventuallity and if that is what has to happen for a healing then I don't see where it is wrong.  Everyone should have a chance for love, peace and wholeness so if someone who has endured so much cannot get it from their spouse because he just doesn't or doesn't want to change then why should he/she be destined to lonliness for the rest of their time because of someone else's misdeeds.  In my own case I am just getting ready to leave my husband, I don't know if it will be permanent or end in divorce but if it does then I don't think the fault will lie with me as I don't think it would lie with anyone else in a similar situation.

Also I am not trying to turn your posts into anything so if I misunderstood you I apologise and I am glad that you are not condoning abuse.  I feel a need to come to the aid of others in my situation, so if I came across too strong at you, or misread your meaning, again I am sorry for that!

[HRoberson]

You of course, make the jump from "looking" to "lusting," which implies that you know the heart of another. The two are different, even if we don't think "looking" is possible.

But this doesn't really address the main question:

The "rules" that God has given are for me, not you.

I am not supposed to commit adultery
I am not supposed to lust

These are not given so that I can accuse you of doing either of those, or so that I can decide to divorce you if you even so much as look at a Playboy magazine.

My commitment is to remain faithful to you - that's my job. It is not my job to look for ways around my responsibilities.

But if we want to be legalistic about it, the two are different. Lusting is not adultery. Any indications to the contrary in Scripture are to reinforce God's expectations of our hearts - so that we have a better idea of who we were made to be.

    What??? How can you say "lusting is not adultery" after reading this:  Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
      I don't get that...sorry!

No I have not tried another counselor and don't wish too, b/c I don't see true sincerity in him to want to change.  I don't see his "fruits", I still see manipulation and believe the only way for us to work on "us" is to come to the relationship as whole as we can each be by ourselves first, then begin to work on "us". 

I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with.

My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

[Supergirl9801]

My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  In this verse it says that whosoever looketh on a a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  I emphasize those points b/c I agree with you they are two different things...lusting and adultery in a technical sense...however this verse clarifies that is has the same effect as the actual deed.  It clarifies that if you are looking at a woman with a lustful desire it is the same impact as physically having sex with her.  Those same thoughts as if you were having sex with her are going through your mind at the same time you are "lusting" after her.  Have you ever heard the term "emotional affair".  No, the spouse didn't physically "sleep" with the other partner, but they did things, said things, shared things, thought things they would never want their spouse to know about.  I've always gone by the general rule to not do or act anyway around another man that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing in front of my H.  THAT, to me, is how you know if it's wrong or not.  You can't tell me that a man looking at pictures of naked women (and I'm not talking about in an art gallery or something) is not exactly the type of thing that God was talking about in that verse.  If that's your belief then I pray God brings you clarity.

[Bon Voyage]

It looks like some are looking to justify an already made decision.

Anyway, if lusting=adultery and that is grounds for divorce, almost every woman, and a good number of men have grounds for divorce whenever they want to play that card.

[Supergirl9801]

It looks like some are looking to justify an already made decision.

Anyway, if lusting=adultery and that is grounds for divorce, almost every woman, and a good number of men have grounds for divorce whenever they want to play that card.

Yep I guess so then 

Shame on you for making light of it.  I pray you're never affected by it.

[Mac]

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

Just so we understand each other, you mentioned this in two different post. Were you a Christian when you married (unequally yoked)? Or did you marry and then become a Christian?

My point is, this should NOT play a role in your decision according to 1st Corinthians 7:12-15.

12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

Peter also touched on this in 1st Peter 3:1-2

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.


I just thought I should put this out there for you. Please do not use this (him being a nonbeliever) as a reason for divorce. The abuse? Yes....Only the Lord knows if he is really sincere in trying to change.

Before you divorce, I would really consider separation. That is a biblical way to deal with stuff like this..If it comes to divorce, well at least you can say you did it the right way.

But I can say that I agree with some of the others on here....You seem to have made up your mind on the subject and posted here looking for support...Please understand that there are two sides to each story. Not saying in any way that yours is not the truth, but we set out to give our OPINION based on the information provided. I agree with Charles, I do not think divorce is the best option. It is AN option. Please exhaust all avenues before this happens. I noticed in one of your post that you have children, remember this...Their lives will be impacted greatly by a divorce. You may dislike him, but they do not. That is their Father...Yes, it is awful for children to see any form of abuse..I am not saying it isn't...But make sure you have tried everything before divorcing. And one more question, What did you mean when you posted, "If I am available"....I know what you posted, but what exactly were you trying to say?

On the lust and adultery thing....The bible says that if you look at someone and lust, you have committed adultery..Seems pretty straight forward to this old boy.

On the porn thing...I think porn is disgusting...On top of it being a sin (in my opinion), I also think it is and would be disrespectful to my wife for me to look at the stuff. So, I don't. I love my wife...Why would I do anything to offend her? I wouldn't..Not knowingly anyway....And I KNOW she would be hurt and offended if I did that.

So, to recap....

Divorcing because he is a nonbeliever...That is a no.
Divorcing because of abuse...That is a yes, provided he does not change and you have tried a separation.
On the Porn issue...That is a big no no..
On the lust and adultery thing...I see them as the same...Only because scripture has said as much. That makes it good enough for me...


I just prayed for the Lord to heal your marriage and for His will to be done in this situation...I will be interested to know what you decide to do...

[Bon Voyage]

It looks like some are looking to justify an already made decision.

Anyway, if lusting=adultery and that is grounds for divorce, almost every woman, and a good number of men have grounds for divorce whenever they want to play that card.

Yep I guess so then 

Shame on you for making light of it.  I pray you're never affected by it.

I am not making light of anything.  I am stone cold serious.  I don't think Jesus is opening up the floodgates for divorce here, nor am I saying it is ok to lust.

[kensington]

Charles,

Thank you for your good intentions.  However, crystal mama is absolutely correct.  Verbal abuse is much worse than physical.

Excuse me... this is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.... I'm here to witness I have been through BOTH.... and with physical come verbal... but DO NOT try to tell me that being called a stupid, ignorant dog...  is WORSE than having my nose broke.

THAT IS A LIE.... a LIE.  Lived it.. been there, done that....  took home the bandages ....  it is not worse at all.

[Supergirl9801]

Just so we understand each other, you mentioned this in two different post. Were you a Christian when you married (unequally yoked)? Or did you marry and then become a Christian?   I was a Christian and he was a "professed" Catholic when we married.  I say "professed" because he never did or has really followed that faith or practiced it outside the ocassional Sunday mass.

My point is, this should NOT play a role in your decision according to 1st Corinthians 7:12-15.

12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

I italicized that b/c that is what applies in my circumstances.  I am the believer and although I sanctified my H through my beliefs, he left me (even though I was the one to move out) and therefor am not bound to him.
Peter also touched on this in 1st Peter 3:1-2

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.


I just thought I should put this out there for you. Please do not use this (him being a nonbeliever) as a reason for divorce. The abuse? Yes....Only the Lord knows if he is really sincere in trying to change.

Not that it is my "reason" for divorce, but why not...the Bible even says as you quoted above that I am not bound to him if he left. 

Before you divorce, I would really consider separation. That is a biblical way to deal with stuff like this..If it comes to divorce, well at least you can say you did it the right way.

We are currently separated.  I am living with my two children DD3, DS1 at my parent's house which is about 10 minutes away.  It was either that or "I had to make another $650/month so he could move out into his own apartment"...that's why I say he left even though I physically left.  That was my choice...which really wasn't an option and he knew that.  I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

But I can say that I agree with some of the others on here....You seem to have made up your mind on the subject and posted here looking for support...Please understand that there are two sides to each story. Not saying in any way that yours is not the truth, but we set out to give our OPINION based on the information provided. I agree with Charles, I do not think divorce is the best option. I find that hard to believe giving the information I have given, unless of course you don't believe me.  I don't think that's the case, I just think you hope for things to be different and work out.  I have done that for many years, to be constantly and sadly disappointed over and over again.  If you do your research on Abusers you will see it is nearly impossible for them to change.  In fact the proven odds are about 95% of them do not.  I pray my H falls into that minor percentage of those who have a miraculous ability to overcome it by God's grace, but only time will tell.It is AN option. Please exhaust all avenues before this happens. Oh..you have no idea.  I could  to him and it wouldn't make a difference for more than maybe a couple weeks if I were lucky.I noticed in one of your post that you have children, remember this...Their lives will be impacted greatly by a divorce. Thanks for the guilt trip.  No offense, but this is why abused women don't turn to their churches, b/c of comments like this.  Do you honestly think I haven't thought about how my children would be impacted by this.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Ok...stay with a H who is verbally abusive towards me...teach my D that it's okay for a man to treat her that way.  Teach my son it's okay for him to treat a woman that way.  Do you really think they'll listen when I turn right around after an incident and say 'Don't you do that...Daddy was wrong...it's wrong to behave that way".  They'll grow up resenting me for being a pushover and hating him for how he treats me.  Oh and as they grow up and become more independant, then his abuse will turn towards them.  Making them feel worthless, and insufficient.  So, do I stay and try to take the brunt of it myself and try to shield them from this as much as possible?? Or, do I leave...take a stand for myself and for them.  Show them a good role model and how to handle and defend themselves from these kinds of attacks.  Give them a safe haven that they can return to if they feel "attacked" some day by their own father?? You tell me.  Of course, they (AND ME) will be hurt by a divorce.  I am not the one CAUSING THE SIN which is resulting in the divorce.   So, as Cristalsmama has mentioned before...you see why comments like this make us feel cornered and "uppity" about it.  You have NO idea how turmoiled we are about it.  There is no good decision here...only a right one.You may dislike him, but they do not. That is their Father...Yes, it is awful for children to see any form of abuse..I am not saying it isn't...But make sure you have tried everything before divorcing. And one more question, What did you mean when you posted, "If I am available"....I know what you posted, but what exactly were you trying to say? I don't remember posting that...if you could show me where or more of what I said, I could elaborate for you.

On the lust and adultery thing....The bible says that if you look at someone and lust, you have committed adultery..Seems pretty straight forward to this old boy.

On the porn thing...I think porn is disgusting...On top of it being a sin (in my opinion), I also think it is and would be disrespectful to my wife for me to look at the stuff. So, I don't. I love my wife...Why would I do anything to offend her? I wouldn't..Not knowingly anyway....And I KNOW she would be hurt and offended if I did that.

My H knows this would hurt and offend me as well.  What's so mind boggling about it that he has been cheated on in the past and knows the pain and has always claimed to be faithful to me b/c he knows first hand how hurtful that is, and has always expressed great disgust for porn etc too. 

So, to recap....

Divorcing because he is a nonbeliever...That is a no.
Divorcing because of abuse...That is a yes, provided he does not change and you have tried a separation.
On the Porn issue...That is a big no no..
On the lust and adultery thing...I see them as the same...Only because scripture has said as much. That makes it good enough for me...


I just prayed for the Lord to heal your marriage and for His will to be done in this situation...I will be interested to know what you decide to do...

[Supergirl9801]

Charles,

Thank you for your good intentions.  However, crystal mama is absolutely correct.  Verbal abuse is much worse than physical.

Excuse me... this is a lie straight from the pit of Hell.... I'm here to witness I have been through BOTH.... and with physical come verbal... but DO NOT try to tell me that being called a stupid, ignorant dog...  is WORSE than having my nose broke.

THAT IS A LIE.... a LIE.  Lived it.. been there, done that....  took home the bandages ....  it is not worse at all.

Kensington,

I'm sorry you went through that.  I did not in any way try to mean that PA is any less damaging than VA.  It may be that your case was different than most others I have talked to that have endured both.  It can also be the case that sometimes those that choose to inflict pain with their words instead of their fists can be even more hurtful with their words knowing they cannot with their bodies for fear of punishment.  I've even had my H during a normal conversation tell me he'd never get "locked up b/c of a woman!".  So, instead of letting his rage go to the extreme of physical damage, he would use even more hurtful words.  Which vs. is it that talks about words hurting like swords or daggers ().  Anyway, I'm not trying to belittle what happened to you.  It's just hard to try to get people to be empathetic to you about verbal abuse unless you're physically assaulted.  I don't know if you ever reached out about your relationship to anyone b/f you were assaulted?  If so, were you made to feel it was "just in your head" or you just needed to try harder in some way.  All impossible efforts when dealing with an abuser.  I'm not sure why you seem to have some hostility about my comparing verbal with physical...as I'm sure you know how damaging the verbal assaults were to you too.  The physical things heal and go away...the images of the hostility and the verbal lashings stay forever.  Do you think had your SO stopped right before he hit you, your feelings about the whole situation would be different.  If he'd said and acted every way he did right up until the second he hit you.  I highly doubt it.  It would've been just as damaging to your soul and your spirit.  ((((((((((Kensington))))))))))))

[Supergirl9801]

It looks like some are looking to justify an already made decision.

Anyway, if lusting=adultery and that is grounds for divorce, almost every woman, and a good number of men have grounds for divorce whenever they want to play that card.

Yep I guess so then 

Shame on you for making light of it.  I pray you're never affected by it.

I am not making light of anything.  I am stone cold serious.  I don't think Jesus is opening up the floodgates for divorce here, nor am I saying it is ok to lust.

IMO Saying someone can "play that card" is making light of it.  No one enters into a divorce lightly or tries to "get out of it" by "playing that card".  "That card" is something that is very hurtful and hard to get past and forgive.  Why do you think God allows it as a reason for divorce.  Jesus didn't "open the floodgates"...MAN did.  Jesus just gave us the okay for divorcing someone who does that.  However, Jesus also asks us to forgive if someone asks forgiveness.

[Charles Sloan]

No one enters into a divorce lightly or tries to "get out of it" by "playing that card".

Maybe not before 1950.

[Supergirl9801]

No one enters into a divorce lightly or tries to "get out of it" by "playing that card".

Maybe not before 1950.

That's tacky!  Maybe I'm sheltered then.  I've never known anyone who was divorced b/c it suited their fancy at the time or it was done with no sense of sorrow or done with disdane.  Sheesh!