J.W. McGarvey on Instruments

[blituri]

September of 1902 marked McGarvey's fiftieth anniversary as a minister of the gospel, and was culminated by a celebration in his honor at the Broadway Church in Lexington, Kentucky, his "home

[zoonance]

Posthumous instrumental music is not authorized.

Another not so known quote from Brother Grubbs "Brother McGarvey, we would rather have you into the church as you were out of it up until now.  We are down to 10 members (9 of which are women) and we can no longer afford to be picky."

[Jimbob]

[blituri]

(L to R) Isaiah Boone Grubbs, Charles Louis Loos, John W. McGarvey from the Pre-Post-Illiterate, Post-Christian ;-o  Infantile period:  ;-)

[Snargles]

This he could not do so long as there [p. 65] was another congregation within his reach with which he could worship in the apostolic method.

Does this mean that if another non-IM church had not been nearby he would have stayed at the Broadway Church?

[blituri]

I can prove over and over that music has and will always MARK both the MIND and the WORKS. The definition of words and the examples pointed to especially by John clearly identifies the beasts with musical instruments. Even if music was not INVENTED by "Lucifer the harp-playing prostitute" as the beast or serpent (musical enchanter/ess) in the garden of Eden, there are MANY practices such as "NOT teaching that which is written" or "that which has been taught" left by Jesus as MARKS or the way of escape for those who are OF FAITH or OF TRUTH.

Laughing and Mocking were the SIGNS left in The Book of Enoch, Jubilees, Adam and Eve and three dozen ancient versions told by Jude of those who had FALLEN and knew that they would never get back up.  Because Jesus pointed to the Scribes and Pharisees (the professional religionists) as hypocrites meaning preachers, singers and instrument players; and because Jesus fired the DOCTORS OF THE LAW because they "took away the key to knowledge"; and John called the speakers, singers and instrument players SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world and dozens of other CLEAR proofs, you would not expect many to grasp that consistent with the REMNANT theory and defacto NO one corrupting the Word meaning "selling learning at retail" also defining adultery.

I have chosen to go OUTSIDE the gates (camp, polis, massed multitudes) and suffer the assured reproaces because that is the place where you can find Jesus who invites us to "come learn of me."  If I am wrong I can plead insanity: if you are wrong it will prove that the BEAST had marked your MIND and your WORK: your forehead and your arms.  At any rate, the MASSING is the sure MARK of people who have denounced Jesus Christ in the interest of MORE TRAFFIC.

"In 1950 bro. J.P. Sewell, in a Harding College lecture, recalled the following advice, given to him by bro. McGarvey away back in 1902. It is advice preachers today might ponder.

"You are on the right road, and whatever you do,

    don't let anybody persuade you
    that you can successfully combat error by fellowshipping it and going along with it. I have tried it.

I believed at the start that was the only way to do it. I've never held membership in a congregation that uses instrumental music.

I have, however, accepted invitations to preach without distinction between churches that used it and churches that didn't. I've gone along with their papers and magazines and things of that sort.

During all these years I have taught the truth as the NT teaches it to every young preacher who has passed through the College of the Bible.

    Yet, I do not know of more than six of those men who are preaching the truth today.
    It won't work."

Nope: J.W.McGarvey would identify those who supported idolaters AS idolaters.  It is not good logic and not McGarvey's only solution since he was responsible for beginning the FAITHFUL congregation and could and would do it again. There are maybe only ONCE IN A LIFETIME for any person to absolutely know WHAT WOULD I HAVE DONE WITH JESUS BACK THE: no one gets the chance to avoid that beyond modification choice.

[Snargles]

This he could not do so long as there [p. 65] was another congregation within his reach with which he could worship in the apostolic method.

Does this mean that if another non-IM church had not been nearby he would have stayed at the Broadway Church?

I found the answer to my question in McGarvey's "What Shall We Do About the Organ" written in 1903:

"But as you are not a preacher and as those who stand with you are not able to organize a self-edifying church, I advise that your remain where you are, participate faithfully in all parts of the worship that are not perverted, and persevere, without growing weary, in earnest and prayerful efforts to secure the removal of the instrument. I advise this because it is the only course left open by which you can still observe such of the ordinances as are still observed according to the Scriptures. The alternative would be either to stay away from church altogether - which is a sinful curse of life while ther is a real church, even a partially corrupted one, with your reach - or to attend some church in which both the teaching and the worship arfe still further removed from the divine order. Of course I am supposing that there is no congregation of the primitive order within reach of you to which you could transfer your membership. If there is, the pat of duty is obvious."

[blituri]

We should look at the context: the HYPOTHETICAL is A person who understands sectarian division by forciing others to violate their Bible-informed conscience, BUT, who does not have the Biblical knowledge to LEAVE and form another congregation.  And the poor man is trapped with NO OTHER OPTION than a partially perverted group or a wholly perverted group (with whom Campbell would never fellowship) or NOT assemblying with others at all.  That hardly constitutes a PATTERNISM for slandering others who refuse to "countenance and tolerate" those who do NOT even pretend to use the Bible for their own PATTERNS.  Here is the complete paper so others won't get confused.

http://www.piney.com/MuJWMc.html

This puts the deliberate sowing of discord upon those who INTRODUCE and confirms McGarvey's refusal to "fellowship" in the sense of endorsing or participating with them is false worship.

I now come to the third of your leading questions, which is this:
      "Suppose that, after all our efforts to prevent it, the organ shall be deliberately introduced,
      or that, if surreptitiously introduced,
      all our efforts to have it removed shall be in vain; what ought we then to do ? "

The case supposed in the question is precisely that of a majority of the brethren and sisters in different States who have written to me for advice on this subject.

That means that the Disciples were trying to force the MAJORITY of their churches to add the organ.

Their condition is a sad and dangerous one.
      It is impossible for a good man not to feel concerned for them
      or to refuse them the benefit of the best counsel that he can give them.
      I have reflected on the subject a great deal, and
      "I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord."

> If you were a preacher, able to do effective work as such,

I would advise you to remove your membership to some other congregation,
      or choose a point at which to build up another,
      in which you can worship according to the truth and teach in peace all the will of God.

> If those of you who oppose the organ were sufficiently numerous to constitute a new congregation
      and had among you the facilities for working as such to edification,
      I would advise you to quietly and respectfully call for letters of commendation
      and organize another congregation in a locality favorable to peace and future growth.

I would thus advise in both these cases
      because it is the duty of every disciple,
      to the full extent of his ability,
      to maintain the ordinances of the Lord as they were delivered to us by him.

But as you are not a preacher
      and as those who stand with you are not able to organize a self-edifying church,
      I advise that you remain where you are, participate faithfully
      in all parts of the worship that are not perverted,
      and persevere, without growing weary,
      in earnest and prayerful efforts to secure the removal of the instrument.

I advise this because it is the only course left open
      by which you can still observe such of the ordinances as are still observed according to the Scriptures.

The alternative would be either to stay away from church altogether; which is a sinful course of life while there is a real church, even a partially corrupted one, within your reach;
       or to attend some church in which both the teaching and the worship
       are still farther removed from the divine order.

Of course I am supposing that there is no congregation of the primitive order
        within reach of you to which you could transfer your membership.
        If there is, the path of duty is obvious.

I am well aware that the hypothetical part of this advice is severely condemned by some of my brethren for whose judgment I have great respect.

They will tell you that it proposes an unscriptural test of fellowship,
and that its adoption would stultify our plea for union by showing that we cannot maintain it among ourselves.

In regard to the latter objection,
       I remark that if uniformity in using the organ is necessary to union
       we are already divided, because we already have churches that use it and churches that refuse it;

we also have some churches refusing it that have come out from those using it.
       I would also remark that our plea is for union on what is taught in the word of God,
       and not on the unauthorized inventions of men,

> and that if union is marred by these inventions,
> the fault lies exclusively with those who introduce them.

> > We have already seen that he who introduces such things is under condemnation,
     and that the condemnation is still severer when it is done with offense.

If he loudly asserts, as he usually does, his liberty in Christ,
      we who oppose his innovation have certainly no less liberty;
      and we may properly refuse to be "entangled again in a yoke of bondage."
As to the introduction of an unscriptural test of fellowship,
        > it is enough to say that we do not refuse fellowship with those who use the organ;
        > we only refuse to partake with them in that practice
           and choose to worship when we can where it is not in our way.

To deny us this privilege would be an attempt to force us into fellowship with a practice confessedly unauthorized in the Scriptures,
      than which there could be nothing more unscriptural or more intolerant.

During this 100 year cycle, the term ANTI-instrumentalist identifies those who WILL NOT SHUT THEIR MOUTHS and stop teaching what the Bible and all of church history teaches. Such people lose the protection of the Grace of God and their members and property is declared surplus and subject to confiscation. The means are really quite violent.

On the other hand if you let them MARK you as just PREFERING to not worship with instruments AND you affirm that they were RIGHT in rejecting the Bible and INVENTING a new system of music THEN you will be permitted "to buy and sell" in the emporiums of their group.

[marc]

Posthumous instrumental music is not authorized.

I was taught that postumous instrumental music was the only kind that is authorized.  Specifically, harps.

[Johnb]

 

[marc]

I only wish it were dead.

[blituri]

Did you guys get paid today? 

[marc]

Did you guys get paid today? 

Thanks for reminding me.  Today's payday, and I had forgotten.  I need to pick up my check.

Not sure what it had to do with anything, though....

[Johnb]

Did you guys get paid today? 

Thanks for reminding me.  Today's payday, and I had forgotten.  I need to pick up my check.

Not sure what it had to do with anything, though....

I am retired and every day is payday for me.  Like you I don't have a clue what that has to do with anything.

[blituri]

MOST of the people working so legalistically hard to promote MUSIC are also the same ones who promote PREACHING when Ephesians 4 dose not list one of those on the organizational chart.

I just figured that having utterly failed because of preaching which comes out of people's heads was failing as people get literate because the internet lets everyone do an end run areound PAY TO PLAY, you were promoting music to keep from getting a REAL job.

Even if you are not one of the Pay to Play fellas, it seems to me that lots of people work really hard to ENABLE those who refuse to "teach that which has been taught." That, I believe, is a result of a Mind Warp and you may not be brave enough to stand up next Sunday and say "the emperor has no clothes."  I am certain that lots of the Newest Swarm work hard to make people feel like traitors if they say anything against sermonizing and versifying.  They call it being JUDGMENTAL and that is always psychological violence.

I remember a 14 year old Catholic girl asking me if I could give her permission to read my material about music.

So, if you did not PLAY you may still have a problem if you PAY because you have had a mind-blend to convince you that it is a LAW.  That would make it legalistic?

[James Rondon]

Will there be music in Heaven, blituri? If so, and if the Lord welcomes you in, what will you do?

[Johnb]

James
Don't you know that the love of IM is the root of all evil? 

[blituri]

I ONLY DEAL WITH FACTS AND DON'T PARTICIPATE IN EITHER WING OF THE EAGLE EATING UP YOUR STUFF.  Did you know that some insects cannot FLY?  They beat the left wing against the right wing on the upstroke and downstroke and just jet propel themselves on TURBULANCE.

No, there is not a CLUE that anyone will play instruments in the NEW HEAVENS which are not remotely connected to the UP THERE or in the air over Mount Zion where the Lamb and the 144,000 hear the WARNING SOUNDS all of which are directly related to creating panic or a warning.

John was CLASSICS LITERATE as was most people who saw the plays and listened to the songs being RECITED as a primary means of inculcating values and history.  I have posted some Revelation elsewhere to prove that when YOU hear the sounds -- as most have RADICALLY heard them round the world in paganinized christianism -- then the OTHER angel has a message for we who are STILL ALIVE: "Preach the Gospel." PREACH does not mean SING.

Then, if God wants to bring LITERAL harps into the SPIRITUAL world then let's let Him make the decision.  We cannot SHIRK our job by trying to PREEMPT God and make fools of ourselves by creating the "sounds of rushing waters" to drive the lambs AWAY from the still waters of the Word.

In Revelation 17 the MARK of the Mother of Harlots in Revelatioon 18 is that of "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players whom John called SORCERERS. The Muse is the code word in the Greek literature for the LOCUSTS who lull you to sleep and sting you to death with their Scorpion tails.  In the literature they were Apollyon's musical worship team known as dirty adulterers all.

[zoonance]

Posthumous instrumental music is not authorized.

I was taught that postumous instrumental music was the only kind that is authorized.  Specifically, harps.

An excellent doctrinal point.   I stand corrected.  I hope He has alot of patience as I try to learn to play that thing.   Oh, I guess I'll have an eternity to get it right.     WORKS!  (even in heaven)   Perhaps I will be transformed into a perfect harp player.   Maybe Spock will be there playing his to Uhura.

[James Rondon]

I ONLY DEAL WITH FACTS AND DON'T PARTICIPATE IN EITHER WING OF THE EAGLE EATING UP YOUR STUFF.  Did you know that some insects cannot FLY?  They beat the left wing against the right wing on the upstroke and downstroke and just jet propel themselves on TURBULANCE.

No, there is not a CLUE that anyone will play instruments in the NEW HEAVENS which are not remotely connected to the UP THERE or in the air over Mount Zion where the Lamb and the 144,000 hear the WARNING SOUNDS all of which are directly related to creating panic or a warning.

John was CLASSICS LITERATE as was most people who saw the plays and listened to the songs being RECITED as a primary means of inculcating values and history.  I have posted some Revelation elsewhere to prove that when YOU hear the sounds -- as most have RADICALLY heard them round the world in paganinized christianism -- then the OTHER angel has a message for we who are STILL ALIVE: "Preach the Gospel." PREACH does not mean SING.

Then, if God wants to bring LITERAL harps into the SPIRITUAL world then let's let Him make the decision.  We cannot SHIRK our job by trying to PREEMPT God and make fools of ourselves by creating the "sounds of rushing waters" to drive the lambs AWAY from the still waters of the Word.

In Revelation 17 the MARK of the Mother of Harlots in Revelatioon 18 is that of "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players whom John called SORCERERS. The Muse is the code word in the Greek literature for the LOCUSTS who lull you to sleep and sting you to death with their Scorpion tails.  In the literature they were Apollyon's musical worship team known as dirty adulterers all.

The word "ravings" comes to mind.

[blituri]

Speaking of raving: that was normally the opinion of rhetoricians and musicians: The Jewish Encyclopedia says that the people of their day would see modern singing as SCREECHING and SCREAMING: that falsetto thingy again.

"I have often seen a man (actor)-- and have been amazed to see,
        and the amazement has ended in contempt,
        to think how he is one thing internally,
        but outwardly counterfeits what he is not--

giving himself excessive airs of daintiness and indulging in all sorts of effeminacy;
        somethines darting his eyes about;
        sometimes throwing his hands hither and thither,
        and raving with his face smeared with mud (sweat, spit and dust);
        sometimes personating Aphrodite (female), sometimes Apollo (male);
        a solitary accuser of all the gods, an epitome of 
        superstition, a vituperator of heroic deeds, an actor of murders, a chronicler of adultery,
        a storehouse of madness, a teacher of cynaedi,
        an instigator of capital sentences;--
                and yet such a man is praised by all.

But I have rejected all his falsehoods, his impiety, his practices,--in short, the man althogether.
        But you are led captive by such men,
        while you revile those who do not take a part in your pursuits.

I have no mind to stand agape at a number of singers,
        nor do I desire to be affected in sympathy with
        a man when he is winking and gesticulating in an unnatural manner."...
             "Why should I admire the mythic piper...
              We leave you to these worthless things;
              and do you believe our doctrines,
              or, like us, give up yours." (Tatian to the Greeks, Ante-Nicene, Vol. II, p. 75).

http://www.piney.com/ChFatTat.html

I think we will see some mega-temples turned into dance halls just like in Europe. Then who will feed you?

[James Rondon]

The same One who feeds me now.