Question for any Catholics out there

[kensington]

"So any of the multiple tens of thousands of Protestant groups, since they lack the essential characteristics of what it means to be Christ's Body, cannot be Christ's Body.  As offensive as that sounds, it is really that simple."

I'm surprised they let you post here... that crack right there, is against the rules... and totally ignorant.  But, it does reveal the unloving, ungodly, division minded purpose of the Catholic Church.  Nice.

[CDHealy]

Kensington:

I have said nothing more than what you and other Catholic bashers have said about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the difference being that I haven't called Protestants idolaters and blasphemers or claimed that some renowned Protestant leader blasphemes God by his mere existence.  Goose and gander and all that, Kensie.  If you can post your vitriol and it's not against the rules, I guess it's okay for me to post my own comments.

Now that's rich calling the Catholic Church divisive, when it's you Protestants that have added about 25,000 schisms to the Christian world and at the rate of about 5 per week.  Pot meet kettle.

And again, let me remind you, I'm Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.  I do happen to believe some things about Rome and schism (as they do the Orthodox and schism), but that's not something I'm going to pursue here.

[broach972]

"So any of the multiple tens of thousands of Protestant groups, since they lack the essential characteristics of what it means to be Christ's Body, cannot be Christ's Body.  As offensive as that sounds, it is really that simple."

I'm surprised they let you post here... that crack right there, is against the rules... and totally ignorant.  But, it does reveal the unloving, ungodly, division minded purpose of the Catholic Church.  Nice.

Oh, this is indeed rich.  Spare me the hypocrisy!!  You are in no position to be lecturing anyone concerning the rules of this forum.  You have been nothing but disrespectul towards my faith and the Catholic Church in general.  I echo CD's response and sentiments in his previous post.

It is you who is ignorant on this subject, as you are on many others.  First, CD is not a Catholic.  Second, you are clueless when it comes to knowing and understanding the Catholic attitude towards non-Catholics.  As Lumen Gentium states...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

The Catholic Church welcomes non-Catholics to attend Mass and even register as members of local churches.  The Catholic Church has a record of helping the poor and champions social causes around the world, aiding Catholics and non-Catholics alike.  Not once have I ever questioned anyone's salvation on this forum, as you have done many times.  I accept and embrace my Protestant brethren as fellow Christians.  While I wish that many non-Catholics within the faith could experience the "fullness of the faith" and joy that I have experienced as a Catholic, I do not dare question the salvation of anyone who claims to follow Christ.  While many differences exist between us, I would rather focus on the things that bind us rather than divides us.

Kensington, you might want to preserve what dignity and credibility you may have left.

[CDHealy]

First, CD is not a Catholic. 

Well, not a Roman Catholic, but Catholic in the broader sense.

(Just quibbling! )

[broach972]

First, CD is not a Catholic. 

Well, not a Roman Catholic, but Catholic in the broader sense.

(Just quibbling! )

[Tu Es Petrus]

I am not Catholic but I do attend mass occasionally. I am a Christian. My question is would you be offended if I took the Lord's Supper during mass?

Thanks,
nhim

The best answer to your question is at this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
I hope you find it helpful.

[kensington]

Broach and CD... stop your whinning... and excuse making.. Are believers who are saved by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ, part of the Body of Christ or not. 

Get to the point. 

[CDHealy]

I've already stated it very clearly, Kensie ol' chum: Protestant believers are not, and cannot by definition be, members of the one visible Church.

It doesn't mean they're not Christians, though they may not be, but it does mean they're not part of Christ's Body.

Yes, this is a strange scenario: that one can be a Christian and yet not part of Christ's visible Body, but the Protestants have a good bit of blame here, since they've divided their fellow Christians so many times over.  God's mercy has to extend in abnormal ways to cover these sins of schism.

[kensington]

Wow... you must just sit on top of this thread waiting for someone to post so that you may "POUNCE"...

It's nice to know what you are willing to falsely speak about other members of the body of Christ....   This is what makes your teachings and your dogmas of your religion so sad.  So very sad and filled with hypocrisy indeed. 

I can't believe how confused that you and those like you are content to be, and to use that false doctrine to try to "win" others.  It's just a crack up. 

I am glad to know though, my family... mostly in laws have invited me to come to at least Christmas things they are having at their church/mass this year.  I have every reason to decline to attend such nonsense at any time of someone who sits next to my redeemed body thinking I am not a member of the body of Christ.  I have no desire what so ever to be with Pharisees this Christmas season. 

I'll stick with the true body of Christ... those who know we are ALL saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone...   
Broach is right... I'll keep my dignity and attend with the body of Christ, those whom He died to redeem. 

[nhim]

Petrus,

Are you Catholic? Thanks for the link.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Petrus,

Are you Catholic? Thanks for the link.

Yes I am.
I have found that www.catholic.com has a wealth of information for intersted parties, once one learns how to navigate the site.

Not only are every magazine article from "This Rock" archived, but also tracts, and here is my favorite: Every episode of the Catholic Answers Live! radio broadcast for eleven years is archived in mp3 format, here: http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php
Just pick a month and a year, download them..  ..whatever. Its fantastic.

Mark

[nhim]

Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

[Tu Es Petrus]

Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

Did you read the article? http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp

Anyway, its not a matter of voting. Reception by non-Catholics is not permitted, unless by a special exception from the bishop. There are many deep theological reasons for this.

As a faithful Catholic, I believe in Catholic doctrine, so I could never "vote" on it, as it were. Truth isn't up to the highest bidder.

I would also add that if I went to visit a protestant church, or a synagouge, or somewhere else, I would respect their rules. We ask the same in return. I think that is a pretty fair request.

Now, on November 14, 1996, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved the following guidelines on the reception of Holy Communion. The guidelines seek to remind all those who may attend Catholic liturgies of the present discipline of the Church with regard to the sharing of Eucharistic Communion.

For Catholics
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.

For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn. 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 Section 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 Section 3).

For those not receiving Holy Communion
All who are not receiving Holy Communion are encouraged to express in their hearts a prayerful desire for unity with the Lord Jesus and with one another.

For non-Christians
We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family.

[nhim]

Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

[sopranette]

Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

Did you read the article? http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp

Anyway, its not a matter of voting. Reception by non-Catholics is not permitted, unless by a special exception from the bishop. There are many deep theological reasons for this.

As a faithful Catholic, I believe in Catholic doctrine, so I could never "vote" on it, as it were. Truth isn't up to the highest bidder.

I would also add that if I went to visit a protestant church, or a synagouge, or somewhere else, I would respect their rules. We ask the same in return. I think that is a pretty fair request.

Now, on November 14, 1996, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved the following guidelines on the reception of Holy Communion. The guidelines seek to remind all those who may attend Catholic liturgies of the present discipline of the Church with regard to the sharing of Eucharistic Communion.

For Catholics
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.

For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn. 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 Section 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 Section 3).

For those not receiving Holy Communion
All who are not receiving Holy Communion are encouraged to express in their hearts a prayerful desire for unity with the Lord Jesus and with one another.

For non-Christians
We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family.

Thank you Tu Es Petrus.  I have been to mass a couple of times in the past couple of years (I was invited), but did not take communion.  I just observed and sang.

love,

Sopranette

[CDHealy]

Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

I think it' really very simple and a matter of being respectful: if you were to visit a Roman Catholic mass, knowing now what you do about the RCC's beliefs regarding Communion, you would be violating one of the very basic principles of the Gospel (love your neighbor as yourself) if you went forward to partake of Communion.

Everyone's up in arms here about Catholics not allowing non-Catholics to take Communion in a Catholic mass.  But let's flip it the other way 'round: if  a Catholic attended a Protestant Church, and brought with her a statue of Mary, set it out up front next to the pulpit and knelt and prayed the Rosary, I doubt anyone on these boards would consider it very nice.  And yet, she's doing nothing more, and indeed something far less, than the proposition that a Protestant ought to barge in to the Catholic mass, march right up front and demand the elements.

We can talk the theology of it to death, and not convince one another one iota.  But it's really very much more simple than that: respect, love your neighbor as yourself.

So you're offended by the Catholic closed Communion.  It doesn't excuse barging in and taking Communion.

[sopranette]

It would be rude for anyone to march up to the front anyway.  But Catholics are invited to participate if they want to with the rest of the congregation, at least at our church (can't speak for everyone here, obviously).

love,

Sopranette

[CDHealy]

It would be rude for anyone to march up to the front anyway.  But Catholics are invited to participate if they want to with the rest of the congregation, at least at our church (can't speak for everyone here, obviously).

But that invitation is predicated on a far different understanding of the Lord's Supper.  Catholics, however, who know their Church teaching, would not go forward to participate.

But to your point about rudeness: EXACTLY!  The insistence on one's purported "right" to partake of Communion (won't find that in the Bible) is not of the Gospel, and in the context in which we've been speaking of it here, it's of the devil since it is not from love.

[nhim]

Healy,

I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to? If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

Also, about your example, praying alone up front is not something done in community,like the Lord's Supper. If someone in our church,marched up front and started praying (with or without Mary), it would be inappropriate at the least. It seems like two totally different things to me.

I do struggle with this "offending my brother versus doing what I believe God would have me do" thing in other areas. There are those in my heritage that are offended by clapping or almost any emotion shown, but if I believe a brother gets so caught up in worship and makes a noise or claps...do I have the right to tell him that he needs to bow his head and be silent because I'm offended? It just seems like that goes so against our freedom in Christ.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

Well, what I'd REALLY like is for you to become Catholic AND receive communion with me, my brother.

But, consider this: When the priest places the host on our tongues, he says "Body of Christ", and we reply "Amen." Our "AMEN" is us saying, "Yes, that is the Body of Christ. I believe that this is no longer bread, but truly is the Body of Christ." Now, if you do not believe in this (Transubstantiation) then your "amen" would be an untruth. On the other hand, if you DO believe in transubstantiation, then become a Catholic and join us at the Father's table.

Of COURSE I want you to receive the Eucharist, but properly, when you are in full communion with us. I shall pray for that day to come

[CDHealy]

I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to?

Yes.  Because you know what Catholics believe about the mass, you do not believe the same things, and you know that it would be offensive to them.  God would not lead you to sin against the law of love.

If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

If you know that they would be offended, then you violate the law of love by going ahead, even if you were pretty sure know one would ever know.  It would be deceitful and dishonest.

[zoonance]

We all pray for full communion with each other.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Thank you Tu Es Petrus.  I have been to mass a couple of times in the past couple of years (I was invited), but did not take communion.  I just observed and sang.

love, Sopranette

Thank you too. And that is great to hear. I have been to a Baptist service before - sort of observing. Very interesting

[zoonance]

offending one another is pretty much standard practice.

[nhim]

Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

[CDHealy]

I do struggle with this "offending my brother versus doing what I believe God would have me do" thing in other areas. There are those in my heritage that are offended by clapping or almost any emotion shown, but if I believe a brother gets so caught up in worship and makes a noise or claps...do I have the right to tell him that he needs to bow his head and be silent because I'm offended? It just seems like that goes so against our freedom in Christ.

Freedom in Christ is not the "right" to "express" ourselves, or to do what we think God is leading us to do and the consequences be durned.  Freedom in Christ means we are free to serve others at the cost to ourselves.  The same Paul who says "for freedom we have been set free" is the same Paul who says do not use your freedom to offend your brother.  If I am free to eat meat, but my brother is not, I do not serve my brother by exercising my "right" in Christ to eat meat.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

I read it. Let me ask you: If you are sitting in Catholic Masses on Sundays, and you are drawn toward the Blessed Sacrament (The Eucharist), then why don't you consider becoming Catholic? Perhaps there is more to this call from God then you are allowing yourself to receive.

I am not trying to proselytize, so don't get me wrong. But what you have said sounds very familiar to what I have heard protestant pastors who have become Catholic say: Attending mass, a longing for the Eucharist, a call from God....

My favorite authors are former protestant pastors, like Scott Hahn, Stephen K. Ray, and Tim Staples. Thats how I know these things.

[kensington]

I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to?

Yes.  Because you know what Catholics believe about the mass, you do not believe the same things, and you know that it would be offensive to them.  God would not lead you to sin against the law of love.

If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

If you know that they would be offended, then you violate the law of love by going ahead, even if you were pretty sure know one would ever know.  It would be deceitful and dishonest.

Aren't you breaking the Law of Love... "Love others as your self" by being offended if someone goes up to take communion.  Actually, you are breaking that Law to not offer it to them.  You are offended on behalf of "what you believe"... but yet claim they have offended you?  '
You choose to be offended.  You try to heap the sin of your choice on someone else. 

[kensington]

Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

I read it. Let me ask you: If you are sitting in Catholic Masses on Sundays, and you are drawn toward the Blessed Sacrament (The Eucharist), then why don't you consider becoming Catholic? Perhaps there is more to this call from God then you are allowing yourself to receive.

I am not trying to proselytize, so don't get me wrong. But what you have said sounds very familiar to what I have heard protestant pastors who have become Catholic say: Attending mass, a longing for the Eucharist, a call from God....

My favorite authors are former protestant pastors, like Scott Hahn, Stephen K. Ray, and Tim Staples. Thats how I know these things.

Should we list now the former Catholics who denounced that religion? 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Should we list now the former Catholics who denounced that religion? 

No. That would be off topic. I was trying to respond to the other member, and his "call" he is hearing, and letting him know he is not alone.

You seem to be a very cruel and mean-spirited person the way that you post. I will pray that the Holy Spirit works in your life the way He has worked in mine, to teach you love of neighbor, and remind you that despite our differences, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, each deserving the other's respect and charity, and that is what is most important of all.

[nhim]

Freedom in Christ is not the "right" to "express" ourselves, or to do what we think God is leading us to do and the consequences be durned.  Freedom in Christ means we are free to serve others at the cost to ourselves.  The same Paul who says "for freedom we have been set free" is the same Paul who says do not use your freedom to offend your brother.  If I am free to eat meat, but my brother is not, I do not serve my brother by exercising my "right" in Christ to eat meat.
[/quote]

Healy,

I agree. I also believe that freedom in Christ is that we are no longer justified by a set of laws and regulations. Paul also stated "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". Do you believe we all have to express ourselves the same way? We all have to worship the same way?

[nhim]

Petrus,

I appreciate your concern. I'm sure we have a different view of the existence of all the different denominations. I see that they are only displeasing to God when when one brother starts judging and condemning another. Personally, I believe God enjoys different kinds of worship-as long as Christ is the focus. I see Him very much as a God of variety-just look at creation!

When I worship with my Episcopal friend or Methodist friend, I have the same desire to participate in the Lord's  Supper.

I come from a faith tradition that used to profess to be the "One True Church". I will never go back to that mindset. I believe it is an exclusive way of thinking and I believe Christ welcomes ALL who believe in him-even to his table.

[CDHealy]

I also believe that freedom in Christ is that we are no longer justified by a set of laws and regulations.

Partaking of Communion among a community that you know has closed Communion has nothing to do with justifying oneself with a set of laws and regulations.  It's a matter of pastoral love (on the part of the community which has closed the Communion), and a matter of brotherly love (on the part of the Christian who refuses to scandalize or offend other brothers and sisters in Christ).

After all, what spiritual good will it do you to partake of Communion at the cost of lack of brotherly love and needless offense?  And furthermore, why is this all about you and not about the larger community of brothers and sisters?  If you do truly believe that all believers are part of the same Church, then why, for the sake of your own spiritual pleasure, would you violate the bonds of love and go against the teaching and practice of the community just because you think you're right and they're wrong?  And how could you think God would lead you to violate the bonds of peace and love?  "Why not rather suffer wrong?  Why not rather be defrauded?  But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers!" (1 Corinthians 6:7-8)

Paul also stated "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". Do you believe we all have to express ourselves the same way? We all have to worship the same way?

No, I don't.  And there are a lot of variations within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox forms of liturgy respectively.  But this has nothing to do with your violating the practices of a community of Christians to satisfy your own will.-

[Tu Es Petrus]

I come from a faith tradition that used to profess to be the "One True Church". I will never go back to that mindset.....

I agree totally. Although we probably disagree on what that Church is. But I do agree that sects & "denominations" are not pleasing to the Lord. Just remember: Sects and denominations really sprung up in the 16th century.

[nhim]

I will respect the wish of Cathoics and not share in the communion. I don't agree with the banning of those outside the Church, as this does not speak of brotherly love. I will respect it tho.

Thanks for everyone's input.