The Desperation of the Critics of the Roman Catholic Church

[Lee Freeman]

Thank you cosmoangel. As Bro. Bob Hendren would say, we all need to approach such things doxologically rather than dogmatically.

For some reason the SDA Church has way more of a problem with the RCC than most Protestants.  Every SDA I've ever met has been vehemently opposed to the RCC. I'm not sure where all this hostility comes from.

Pax.

[trifecta]

Interesting stuff, gentlemen.   

Amo, I've got to give you credit; that stuff you posted was pretty vitroilic, which makes me understand better where you are coming from.  (Maybe though, you can delete some blanks from your last post).

Cosmo and Lee make some good points, but it doesn't change the words on those reformers.  I do think that writing in the old days was more direct than today. 
Indeed, antichrist was not used in the same way as it is used today.   Most did not say directly that Rome was Babylon, but, Amo's right, some did.

Every SDA I've ever met has been vehemently opposed to the RCC. I'm not sure where all this hostility comes from.

I agree with you, Lee, but  Amo has a point: maybe it is such writings that led to this hostility. 

By the way,  one of the most anti-Catholic people I have ever met was in the Restoration Movement.  I actually had quite a lot of respect for this man, as he knew Scripture quite well.   He believed in that Rome was the harlot and all.   Is this a mainstream position of the RM? 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Interesting stuff, gentlemen.  

Amo, I've got to give you credit; that stuff you posted was pretty vitroilic, which makes me understand better where you are coming from.  (Maybe though, you can delete some blanks from your last post).

Cosmo and Lee make some good points, but it doesn't change the words on those reformers.  I do think that writing in the old days was more direct than today. 
Indeed, antichrist was not used in the same way as it is used today.   Most did not say directly that Rome was Babylon, but, Amo's right, some did.

Every SDA I've ever met has been vehemently opposed to the RCC. I'm not sure where all this hostility comes from.

I agree with you, Lee, but  Amo has a point: maybe it is such writings that led to this hostility. 

By the way,  one of the most anti-Catholic people I have ever met was in the Restoration Movement.  I actually had quite a lot of respect for this man, as he knew Scripture quite well.   He believed in that Rome was the harlot and all.   Is this a mainstream position of the RM? 

I think it's a necessary part of their eschatological position.

[Bon Voyage]

Thank you cosmoangel. As Bro. Bob Hendren would say, we all need to approach such things doxologically rather than dogmatically.

For some reason the SDA Church has way more of a problem with the RCC than most Protestants.  Every SDA I've ever met has been vehemently opposed to the RCC. I'm not sure where all this hostility comes from.

Pax.

Especially Jesuits.

[trifecta]

By the way,  one of the most anti-Catholic people I have ever met was in the Restoration Movement.  I actually had quite a lot of respect for this man, as he knew Scripture quite well.   He believed in that Rome was the harlot and all.   Is this a mainstream position of the RM? 

I think it's a necessary part of their eschatological position.

Now that makes sense.  But how come Lee doesn't believe it and he's RM?

[Bon Voyage]

By the way,  one of the most anti-Catholic people I have ever met was in the Restoration Movement.  I actually had quite a lot of respect for this man, as he knew Scripture quite well.   He believed in that Rome was the harlot and all.   Is this a mainstream position of the RM? 

I think it's a necessary part of their eschatological position.

Now that makes sense.  But how come Lee doesn't believe it and he's RM?

Might be referring to SDA eschatological position.

[Jimbob]

Most of the RM folks I've know (and that's quite a few, to say the least) believe Rome is the seven-hilled city of Revelation, but it's Rome the the Empire, not Rome the church, and the false religion in Rev is referring to the false religion of the Caesars, as it goes.  At one time the latter was a common belief, even printed by Standard Publishing at the turn of the last century.  That's mostly gone the way of the buggy whip.

That's just been my experience, others' mileage may (and most likely will) vary.

-------

On another note, I know of a break-off group from the DoC called "Church of Christ" that is instrumental (sometimes called "the Ottumwa Brethren" because they were rooted in the Ottumwa ministry school) who do mostly hold the old "the pope is the man of lawlessness, the RCC is the beast" view.

This guy is of their fellowship. http://insight2bp.homestead.com/Subject.html

[Volkmar]

Clifton,

Have you read much of Thomas Merton?  If so, what do you like or dislike about his writing?

V

Yes.

I like his earlier stuff more than his later stuff.  My priest was a novice in Gethsemani monastery when Merton was novice master.  He has since become Orthodox and has some extremely interesting things to say about Merton.

I like Waters of Siloe and another one on silence whose title escapes me.

I would love to hear those "interesting things"...Merton appears to have had some significant challenges in his 40's.

Presently reading No Man Is An Island.  Has some good sections.

Blessings,

V

[Amo]

Amo, I could post just as many quotes by probably just as many Roman Catholics who taught that Protestantism was/is the Beast of Babylon from Revelation. So who's right?

I guess, as usual, we will just have to take your word that you could produce as many Roman Catholic quotes.  The Protestant reformers which I have quoted, spoke the truth at the peril of their lives.  The Church which you are defending would have gladly burned every one of them at the stake if they could have.  Just as she murdered countless millions of others who dared to speak the same, or refused to bow down to her authority.  Which by the way, is one of the historical facts that points to the Church of Rome as"BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

[Amo]

(Maybe though, you can delete some blanks from your last post).

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  Does it have something to do with the large space left at the end of the post?  It's past midnight, I'm tired, I'll try to figure it out later.  Maybe you could give me a clue.  Good night.

[CDHealy]

The Church which you are defending would have gladly burned every one of them at the stake if they could have.  Just as she murdered countless millions of others who dared to speak the same, or refused to bow down to her authority. 

Which the Protestants of Calvin's Geneva did as well.  And then there was Luther's massacre (or rather his friend, the king).  And all the Anabaptist goings on.

Yep, the Protestant Reformation and "radical" Reformation was a paragon of purity of action.

[sopranette]

Should a christian shop at Wal-Mart?  Can a christian shop at Wal-Mart?  Can I fellowship with an errant brother (or sister) who does?  who does not?   What if I don't buy anything, just go in to witness?  What if I only buy christian stuff?   Is benadryl christian?  Can a christian take benadryl?  Does that mean he doesn't trust God?  Can a christian buy dog food there?  Should christians own dogs, especially since scripture does not particularly shed dogs in a good light?  Can christians own anything?  Can a buy a bible at Wal-Mart?  What about KMart?................... .............

They do sell those plastic abominations of Baal, otherwise known as Christmas trees.  A pox on them!

love,

Sopranette

[sopranette]

I have never heard my Pastor say one thing about the RCC.  Not one.  In fact, I see more similarities than differences.  We still do the Lord's Supper, except it's once every quarter, not every Sunday.  We still sing the same songs (actually, for the much older hymns, I'm one of the very few who still remember them, which saddens me).  Yes, there is a collection plate for tithes.  And it's the same bible no matter what part we're reading. Labeling a certain group of people as evil is the very antithesis of the Great Commission. Thinking any one Christian church has the cornerstone on the Truth is absurd.

love,

Sopranette

[Amo]

Which the Protestants of Calvin's Geneva did as well.  And then there was Luther's massacre (or rather his friend, the king).  And all the Anabaptist goings on.

Yep, the Protestant Reformation and "radical" Reformation was a paragon of purity of action.

You are right.  Although, Luther's massacre was for far different reasons than those massacres brought about by the Church of Rome.  Luther's massacre was more about bringing law and order back to a nation that was swiftly moving towards total chaos.  Some mistook throwing off the Roman yoke, for throwing off all restraints.  They became violent and abusive, and law and order had to be reestablished.

Other Protestants, almost all of which came out of the Church of Rome themselves, were not completely free from her errors.  It took centuries of Reformation before those who would call themselves Protestant, would establish a government free from the hopeless entanglement of church and state brought about by the Church of Rome, "BABYLON THE GREAT".

The United States is,or was the country that established this form of government, and was blessed by God for doing so.  Now though, her government, and politicians are becoming hopelessly entangled once again with the political goals and ambitions of the Church of Rome, "BABYLON THE GREAT".  She will and is being a leader in the reestablishment of "BABYLON THE GREAT", and her power to controle and manipulate the kings of the earth.

[sopranette]

Modern day Babylon is not the Catholic church, since the RCC didn't have any political power until the 300's AD, long after the Revelation was written.  Babylon refers to the state of modern man, who are living without Christ, who are enjoying great wealth and luxury, and are using religion as a political power over people in general, a form of control, similar to biblical times Babylon.  This could be any religion. And Jerusalem is the city built on seven hills. I just posted on that, what, yesterday, I think?

love

,Sopranette

[broach972]

CD, nice OP.  Greatly appreciated.  As a recent convert to the RC faith, I have been on both sides of the fence.  I grew up in the south, where I continue to reside.  Not exactly friendly territory when it comes to the Catholic faith.  I live near Bob Jones University, if this is any indication.

Anti-Catholicism fascinates me.  I grew up hearing many of the old myths and propaganda that I have read here on this forum.  The conversion process was slow for me as a result.  Ironically, being a history major led me on the path and it took ten years before I joined the Church.  I just didn't jump into the Chruch overnight, and I studied every teaching and doctrine before making that leap.

I do not expect everyone to agree with the RCC.  I do expect there to be some civility and respect in discussing our disagreements, which has been lacking on this forum for quite some time.  Unfortunately, I may be the only Catholic member left as a result.

[Lee Freeman]

Broach, I appreciate hearing RCC and OC perspectives. While I don't always agree with these communions doctrinally I do greatly respect them and the undeniably vital contributions they have made to global Christianity. People are often afraid of what they don't understand and its just easier for people to pigeonhole and stereotype rather than do some honest investigation of their own.

Pax.

[cosmoangel]

Anti-Catholicism fascinates me.  I grew up hearing many of the old myths and propaganda that I have read here on this forum.  The conversion process was slow for me as a result.  Ironically, being a history major led me on the path and it took ten years before I joined the Church.  I just didn't jump into the Chruch overnight, and I studied every teaching and doctrine before making that leap.

I do not expect everyone to agree with the RCC.  I do expect there to be some civility and respect in discussing our disagreements, which has been lacking on this forum for quite some time.  Unfortunately, I may be the only Catholic member left as a result.

I didn't hear much of the anti-Catholic stuff until I began converting really.  My dislike for the Roman Church when I was younger stemmed from my own misunderstandings of the faith.  It wasn't until my nondenominational church found out I was asking questions and did an entire month of preaching against the Roman Church that I really started hearing the rediculous stuff people cooked up about it without real research.  I remain thankful to this day I had a couple friends in the process of converting at the time to openly and respectfully discuss it with.  Even when our minister attempted to force us to get them to come talk with him to 'sort them out,' they still responded towards him with love and respect, if not apprehension about what he was teaching.

I agree, though.  There's nothing wrong with dialogue between denominations so long as people remain civil and respectful towards one another.  How else do the misunderstandings get cleared up or is the love of Christ shared throughout the church catholic if we close ourselves off to one another after all?

[kingdom-heir]

Have you ever read this about the RCC?  http://www.watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

[CDHealy]

Silliness squared.

[cosmoangel]

Have you ever read this about the RCC?  http://www.watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

Perfect example of what I was talking about.

[Corbley]

But why are they so desperate?

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Some of them are desperate, because they do not wish to see so many perish because they have been deceived by Babylon the great.  They are following the lead of the angel in the above prophetic verses.  Time is short, most of the nations and religions of the earth have already been intoxicated with the wine of Babylon.  Including yourself, obviously.

AMEN....Desperate, to help Catholics see the light......
STOP HAILING MARY.... She is not a deity..
The Pope is NOT the Holy Father and by assuminig the name of "Holy Father" he is a blasphemer
Get rid of the Idols and "Golden Calves" throughout the Catholic Church and worship God ALONE
The pope is not the Substitute for Christ as he assumes his name VICOR OF CHRIST

Those of us who are trying to warn the Catholics of their Idol worship and blaspheming are not going outside of scripture...We are trying to show Catholics, how the Mega Church is teaching you to sin against God...And using him name to teach you.

[broach972]

AMEN....Desperate, to help Catholics see the light......
STOP HAILING MARY.... She is not a deity..
The Pope is NOT the Holy Father and by assuminig the name of "Holy Father" he is a blasphemer
Get rid of the Idols and "Golden Calves" throughout the Catholic Church and worship God ALONE
The pope is not the Substitute for Christ as he assumes his name VICOR OF CHRIST

1. I have seen the light; hence the reason why I am a Catholic.

2. I agree that Mary is not a deity.  No arguments there.

3. He is not the "Holy Father" in the sense that you understand it.  The Pope is not God or a deity of any kind.  There is nothing wrong with referring to him by the title.  You might want to research this a little more.

4. What idols are you referring to?  I have never seen any Golden Calves in church.  We do worship God alone.

5. The Pope is not a substitute for Christ...no one can be.  The Pope is merely a man.  However, the Pope is a representative of Christ with authority, as Christ intended.  The title "Vicar of Christ" is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him.  You might want to research this term a little more as well.

Bottomline:  You have no idea of what you are talking about in any of these matters.  Please do some research before you comment on such things.  If I had a nickel for everytime I have stated this, I could retire by now.

[cosmoangel]

4. What idols are you referring to?  I have never seen any Golden Calves in church.  We do worship God alone.

I believe it's the statues of the saints and the pictures that most churches are decorated with that people are refering to here.  Because, you know, obviously you can't have any image ever that you aren't worshipping.  Or perhaps specifically Catholics can't have any images ever because obviously it means they're worshipping them.  There is absolutely no reason to believe they might just be there to a) glorify God as a reminder of the good things He does for humanity by using human beings or b) as a focus for prayer to conenctrate upon and recall the good things God does for humanity.  No, they must be idols. 

[Lee Freeman]

Weren't the statues, colorful vestments, incense, stained glass, carved church facades and tympanums, etc. used in a very practical sense as visual/sensory aides to aid people in worship? A largely illiterate early and medieval European poulation (even many priests) could see the statues, stained glass, colorful vestments, etc., they could smell the incense and hear the chant. Ritual in and of itself is not a bad thing.

No educated Catholic I've ever met believes they're supposed to "worship" a statue. As BBroach has said, they make a very real distinction betwen worship, which is reserved for God alone, and the veneration, or special honor, afforded Mary and the saints. In the middle ages, on a popular devotional level the line might have become blurred sometimes, however, today's Catholic Church isn't the medieval Catholic Church, and the Magisterium (the teaching arm of the church) has never taught that images should be worshiped.

As Broach said, you guys might want to study a bit more before you make such accusations. After that, you still might disagre with the RCC teaching on these subjects, (as I do) but at least you'll do so from an informed standpoint.

If Protestants and Catholics cannot stop misrepresenting each others' beliefs, true ecumenism and understanding is doomed.

Pax.

[Tu Es Petrus]

If Protestants and Catholics cannot stop misrepresenting each others' beliefs, true ecumenism and understanding is doomed.

Amen to THAT brother. Its hard to get a good conversation going on the things we actually do disagree on, because we are always chasing strawman arguments based on nonsense.

[Amo]

II Th 2:1-4  1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the Lord returns, the man of sin will be revealed. This man of sin sits himself in the temple of God, claiming the power, and authority of God. Where is this temple of God, that the man of sin sits in? The sanctuary, or temple of the new covenant is found in one of two places. There is the sanctuary, or temple in heaven where Christ now intercedes for us before His Father. There is also the new covenant sanctuary, or temple that is established in Christ's followers. The Church, or body of Christ, both in it's individual members, and as a corporate body, is considered the temple of God. So, the man of sin must try to set himself up in at least one, if not both of these places. It is by doing this, that he reveals himself for what he is. Notice the following.

Heb 8:1-2  1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

1 Cor 6:19  19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Eph 2:19-22  19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It is the Church of Rome that makes the false claim, that one man has been chosen as the head of all Christendom.  That is, the head of the temple of God here on earth.  As such, the Pope sets himself up in the temple of God on earth, as God, showing himself that he is God on earth.  Christ alone is the head of His Church, of the individual Christian, and the body of Christ.  He has not appointed this task to any single man. It is only the man of sin that claims this prerogative, which belongs only to God, through His Son Jesus Christ.  Thus the Church of Rome puts a mere man between Humanity and God, a thing of the old covenant dispensation, which the Lord Jesus Christ came to abolish.  Thus she separates humanity from Christ through her false doctrine.

The Church of Rome also claims the power to change bread and wine into the literal blood and body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and that it is necessary for one top partake of the same.  Thus she again places herself between Christ and humanity in that they must come to her in order to partake of the literal flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, which only her priests have the power to perform.  Again setting herself up in the temple of God, as God.

Even if the celebration of the Lord's supper did really include changing bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ, which it doesn't, how says the Church of Rome that only her priests can do so.  Again this makes her necessary to salvation.  I wonder if all the priests that were guilty of child molestation, were at the same time they practiced such abomination, changing bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus. Utter stinking nonsense.  I do not bring up the above by way of condemnation, for we are all sinners before God, but by way of revealing the sheer absurdity of giving such power to mere sinners.  God has not given any human this power, nor has He given any mere sinner kingly authority over His Church.  He is quite capable through the power of His Holy Spirit to perfectly run every aspect of His Church in this world.

The Church of Rome claims that her adherents must confess their sins to a priest.  Again placing themselves between humanity and God, and reestablishing that of the old covenant which was abolished by Christ.  We may all have access directly to the throne of God through Christ, who ever liveth to make intercession for us.  Thus the Church of Rome places herself directly between humanity and Christ, and His very ministry for us in the temple of God in heaven. This power to forgive sins is of course granted to the priest through the head of all their priests, the Pope of Rome, the man of sin who places himself in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Church of Rome teaches her adherents to pray to God through an assortment of dead saints, Mary in particular, once again separating humanity from God through the practice of this abomination.  Christ died so that our prayers could proceed directly to the throne of God through His very ministry in the sanctuary of heaven for us.  It is an abomination to place anyone, or anything between Christ and His own, and the intimacy He desires to share with His own by their confession directly to Him of their sins.  Also to share their personal cares and needs and wants directly to their God who loves them so, that He sacrificed His won life, through the life of His Son for them.  This is an abominable sin, to separate God's own from the intimacy He intend s to have with them.

The Church of Rome separates humanity from Christ by polluting the gospel message through her false and abominable teachings, and hopelessly entangling the giving of the gospel with the kings, politics, and political powers of this world.  Severely impeding the progress of the same by doing so. The Holy Spirit of God being a wholly sufficient power for the spreading of the gospel in all the world, it is an abomination to God to seek the alliances, and powers of the governments of this world in order to accomplish the same.

The Church of Rome separates humanity from God by claiming the authority to change the law of God, and in so doing, teaching humanity to break the law of God.  Thus separating humanity from God through disobedience to God, coupled with an unwillingness to confess their sins to God, being unwilling to acknowledge their sins as such.  Accepting the Church of Rome's definition of sin, or the breaking of the commandments, over God's definition of the same through His word.  What is the claiming of authority to change God's law, but the setting up of ones self in the temple of God, showing thyself to be God.

There is no sense to go on, though there is much more, but to say that the teachings of the Church of Rome serve the purpose of separating humanity from Christ, while all the time claiming to do just the opposite. Her abominable teachings and doctrines contradict and claim to supersede the authority of God's word, and therefore of God Himself.  The man who claims to be her leader, and promulgates her false and abominable doctrines, is indeed the man of sin himself.  The word of God is filled with prophecies addressing the same.  Please heed the following prophecy concerning the same.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

I see no nonsense about that.

[Tu Es Petrus]

.

I feel sorry for you Amo. You just cut and paste a bunch of stuff that is misleading and/or untrue. Its pure anti-Catholic propoganda, and not even good propoganda at that.

[Amo]

I feel sorry for you Amo. You just cut and paste a bunch of stuff that is misleading and/or untrue. Its pure anti-Catholic propoganda, and not even good propoganda at that.

If I cut and paste anything, I always give the source from which it came.  I am the author of the last post, apart from the scriptural references obviously.  In the previous posts, all quotes have their reference. 

This is a discussion board you know.  You could actually back up your last accusation against me with some sort of proof, or argument.  I am not anticatholic, I am trying to warn Catholics of the danger they are in.  If I hated Catholics, then I would be glad that they are deceived, and leave them to perish without warning.  The opposite is true, therefore I am warning as many as possible of the danger they are in by forsaking the word of God in favor of that of a man.  In danger of making the commandments of God of none effect, by the commandments and traditions of men.

Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Tu Es Petrus]

I feel sorry for you Amo. You just cut and paste a bunch of stuff that is misleading and/or untrue. Its pure anti-Catholic propoganda, and not even good propoganda at that.

If I cut and paste anything, I always give the source from which it came.  I am the author of the last post....

Very well. I shall re-phrase:

I feel sorry for you Amo. You just authored  a bunch stuff that is misleading and/or untrue. Its pure anti-Catholic propoganda, and not even good propoganda at that.

[Amo]

Very well. I shall re-phrase:

I feel sorry for you Amo. You just authored  a bunch stuff that is misleading and/or untrue. Its pure anti-Catholic propoganda, and not even good propoganda at that.

Do Catholic priests transform the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus?

Does anyone else outside of the Catholic Church have the authority, and are they capable of doing the same?

Do Catholics pray to God through the saints?

Do they bow down to images of the same?

Are they told to confess their sins to their priests?

Do the priests have the authority to grant God's forgiveness to those who confess to them?

Does the Catholic Church believe that Peter was the first Pope, chosen by God to be the visible head of Christ's Church on earth, and all Popes after have succeeded him?

Has the Catholic Church changed the sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week, by the power invested in them by God?

Does the Vatican entertain ambassadors from over 170 nations of this earth?

Answering the above questions might help your argument.

[cosmoangel]

I am not anticatholic, I am trying to warn Catholics of the danger they are in.  If I hated Catholics, then I would be glad that they are deceived, and leave them to perish without warning.  The opposite is true, therefore I am warning as many as possible of the danger they are in by forsaking the word of God in favor of that of a man.  In danger of making the commandments of God of none effect, by the commandments and traditions of men.

You don't have to hate Catholics to be anti-Catholic.  Anti means opposed to.  You're against Catholicism, therefore you are anti-Catholic.  Further, your last insinuation that Catholics are "in danger of making the commandments of God of none effect" is rediculous and an issue already countered by the church catholic when the Donatists suggested such things back in the early 200's C.E.  No man can invalidate the commandments of God.  The sacraments given to an individual whether by a 'worthy' or 'unworthy' representative of Christ does not nulify the salvivic affects of said sacraments.  Further God's commandments are set by Him, mankind cannot nullify the work of God.  Sin can distort the purity of the intent here on earth, but nothing a man can do can nulify the commands of God.

Further, until Martin Luther in the 1500's transubstantiation was an accepted view of the sacrament of communion.  While it was under debate in the early church, the Bishops all agreed that the original language meant a literal translation.  The reason why only priests of the Catholic Church were allowed to give the sacraments were due to the belief of apostolic descent: i. e. Jesus gave such authority to his apostles, who passed it down to their followers, who passed it down to their followers, etc.

As discussed regarding praying to the saints and the use of images:  praying to the saints for their prayers to God is tantamount to asking a living friend to pray for you.  Considering we believe in a bodily resurrection and also believe that there are certain individuals already in heaven and able to offer prayers to God on our behalf, praying to a saint for prayers to God is simply the same as having another friend pray for you.  Catholics do not worship saints.  They are kneeling in prayer to God and using imagery as a focus to keep their minds off of the distractions of daily life.

I would keep going with this, but quite frankly I lack the energy of continuing to offer a defense of myself and my beliefs when such have been offered time and again and are never enough for you.

I do think you're being highly insulting by insinuating that the Catholic Church not only does not worship Christ as king among men, but also is offering false teachings.  Have you ever been to Mass?  Have you ever heard scripture being read?  Have you ever heard the prayers to God?  The saying of the Lord's prayer at each service, the reading of the gospels and psalms?  The teaching of Old and New Testament passages?  The reciting of the Nicene Creed?  If this isn't enough for you, this is a Christian chat site which restricts users to Christians only.  Gee, I see a section devoted to Catholicism here.  Seems quite likely that Catholics are Christians.

[Tu Es Petrus]

First of all, each of these topics deserves its own thread, if there isn't one already. I am not going to drag out this mudslinging style of posting, throwing a whole ton of stuff into the air as if the sheer volume of it proves some sort of point. Such posts are the bane of the mediocre. But briefly:

Do Catholic priests transform the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus?

No, God transforms the bread and wine, not the priest. Jesus did that at the last supper when he said "This is my Body." I won't quibble over what the meaning of the word "is" is. I suggest you read this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

Does anyone else outside of the Catholic Church have the authority, and are they capable of doing the same?

Eastern Orthodox bishops and priests are also empowered to act "in persona Christi" at their Mass. Why? Because their bishops also have authentic apostolic succession.

Do Catholics pray to God through the saints?

No. We pray to God through Jesus. But, we do ask other Christians to pray for us, just like you protestants do. But unlike you, we do not have a narrow view of the Body of Christ. We believe that ALL Christians, whether on earth or in heaven, are members of the Body of Christ, and we feel comfortable asking ANY of them to pray for us. Read this for further explanation: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Do they bow down to images of the same?

No. We kneel in prayer, just like you do. However, we do use imagery to help us focus, the same way you may look at a picture of a loved one when you are thinking about them. There may be an image close to us when we kneel in prayer, but we do not "bow down to" them. Again, here is further suggested reading: http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

Are they told to confess their sins to their priests?

Yes.

Do the priests have the authority to grant God's forgiveness to those who confess to them?

Yes they do. Christ gave them that authority, or rather I should say, Christ established that "Sacrament". This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).

Does the Catholic Church believe that Peter was the first Pope, chosen by God to be the visible head of Christ's Church on earth, and all Popes after have succeeded him?

Yes, because he is.

Has the Catholic Church changed the sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week, by the power invested in them by God?

No. Saturday is the Sabbath, and Sunday is the Lord's Day. This teaching is specifically laid out in the official Catechism, right here:  http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm#II
Quote Section 2175: "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week..."

Does the Vatican entertain ambassadors from over 170 nations of this earth?

Yes. The Vatican is a sovereign nation. All nations respect each others' ambassadors.  Your question is both odd and pointless.

Answering the above questions might help your argument.

LOL. I believe you are the one whom needs a little help. But I am always glad to educate a brother. It is considered a Corporal Work of Mercy to "educate the ignorant."

[extranos]

Tu Es Petrus,
Even as a Lutheran, I'm with you on your points - except for this one....

Quote from: Amo on Yesterday at 07:26:49 PM
Does the Catholic Church believe that Peter was the first Pope, chosen by God to be the visible head of Christ's Church on earth, and all Popes after have succeeded him?

Yes, because he is.

From what I have read, the Bishop of Rome was considered a "first among equals", but not THE head of the Church on earth by the Bishops in Alexandria, Antioch or Jerusalem.  I would say that this is the one point you offered up where Christians of goodwill still have a serious difference of opinion with Rome.  It is a historical fact that there were times where more than one Pope existed at once (I think there were 4 at once, but I'm going from memory).

I'm also highly troubled by the "Mary as co-Redeemer" talk that I hear these days coming from Rome.  Feel free to enlighten me on why that is a good idea to pursue. 

I also think that the RCC has made a big mistake by continuing to insist that priests remain unmarried, because that is not a teaching that the RCC has always held.  It seems to simply be "policy".

On the plus side, the RCC has done a great  job of spreading Christianity throughout the Western Hemisphere, while the EO has done a terrible job of spreading Christianity throughout the Middle East and into Asia.  The RCC has faithfully preserved the doctrines of the Real Presence, infant baptism and the saving work of Christ on the Cross. 

I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that the RCC of today is nothing at all like the RCC of Luther's era.  The RCC in the 1500s was, I believe, demonstrably corrupt.  There are still a few things today that bother me about the RCC, but I don't see any behavior today that comes close to what Luther had to fight against.  Nothing would please me more than to see the Lutherans, the RCC and the EO come back together as the one historic, evangelical, orthodox Christian Church militant.  Now THAT would be a thing of beauty!

[Tu Es Petrus]

From what I have read, the Bishop of Rome was considered a "first among equals", but not THE head of the Church on earth by the Bishops in Alexandria, Antioch or Jerusalem.  I would say that this is the one point you offered up where Christians of goodwill still have a serious difference of opinion with Rome.

For sure there are differences. But I believe the papacy is firmly rooted in Scripture. If I may make an analogy: First and second century Christians had a fuzzy understanding on the nature of Christ, and little if any understanding of the Trinity. It wasn't until the fourth century that the doctrines on the nature of Christ and the Trinity were really hammered out and well defined. Does that mean the Church "invented