Wives submit to your husbands

[chosenone]

I believe this verse teaches us to be sub(under) our husband. We are in a line of authority for our own good. If our husband is under God and we are under him we are in proper order. If we get out of that line..husband away from God...wife not submissive to husband...WE ARE IN REBELLION! If we are in rebellion God can not bless/answer our marriage/prayers.

The husband is commanded to love his wife with understanding...the wife is told to respect her husband.

And, what if your husband isn't submitted to God?  Then what?


V

Even if the husband isnt submitted to God wives are still to treat him with respect and submit to him as her husband so that he will be won over by her behaviour.He is still her husband and she still chose to marry him.

[grace]

I believe this verse teaches us to be sub(under) our husband. We are in a line of authority for our own good. If our husband is under God and we are under him we are in proper order. If we get out of that line..husband away from God...wife not submissive to husband...WE ARE IN REBELLION! If we are in rebellion God can not bless/answer our marriage/prayers.

The husband is commanded to love his wife with understanding...the wife is told to respect her husband.

And, what if your husband isn't submitted to God?  Then what?


V

Are you saying he is not a christian?

[grace]

I believe this verse teaches us to be sub(under) our husband. We are in a line of authority for our own good. If our husband is under God and we are under him we are in proper order. If we get out of that line..husband away from God...wife not submissive to husband...WE ARE IN REBELLION! If we are in rebellion God can not bless/answer our marriage/prayers.

The husband is commanded to love his wife with understanding...the wife is told to respect her husband.

And, what if your husband isn't submitted to God?  Then what?


V

Even if the husband isnt submitted to God wives are still to treat him with respect and submit to him as her husband so that he will be won over by her behaviour.He is still her husband and she still chose to marry him.

Did not read all the way down...I think you answered it for me!

[yogi bear]

Please will you all define what submit means to you. If we knew what you mean by submit then we can understand your line of reasoning better.

[grace]

I believe this verse teaches us to be sub(under) our husband. We are in a line of authority for our own good. If our husband is under God and we are under him we are in proper order. If we get out of that line..husband away from God...wife not submissive to husband...WE ARE IN REBELLION! If we are in rebellion God can not bless/answer our marriage/prayers.

The husband is commanded to love his wife with understanding...the wife is told to respect her husband.

So grace, is a single adult woman "headless" (so to speak)?  Of course not; rather, adult single women have God as their head.  Why then would a woman who gets married stop listening to God directly and listen to God only through her husband.  Frankly, imo patriarchy criples marriage, the family, and society, keeping them all from reaching their full potential in God.  To me, marriage is like to oxen yoked together.  They are joined together to work together with both listening to the driver.  

From experience, I've also found that an egalitarian approach to family is much more functional.  My wife is a very intelligent, sensitive, and caring person, gifted in different ways than I am.  Rather than our roles being defined by our gender, our roles are defined by our strengths.  Where I am strong, I provide servant leadership.  Where she is strong, she provides servant leadership.  And in all things we work together and seek agreement.  When we have different beliefs as to the direction we should go, we wrestle until the Lord impresses one of us to submit.  I don't know how many major decisions that we've disagreed on over the years that we never really came to an agreement, but where the Lord steped in and impressed one of us to submit and go along with the direction of the other.  

Over the last several years, I've interviewed many couples married 10+ years, and almost all function as an egalitarian model of family.  Note that I said "function"; though some claimed to be patriarichal I simply asked how many out of the 1000's of decisions they've made together did the husband pull the trump card and say, "..... is the direction we're going because I'm the man of the house."  They all responded that the man rarely, usually never, resolved their conflict that way.  It's one thing to give lip service to patriarchy; it's another thing to live that way and have a lasting marriage.  

I did not say that she is to stop listening to God. God holds the man responsible for most of the family outcome. He is to love, guide and cherish his wife as Christ does the church. The wife is to show respect to her husband.

You can not have two heads..."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church; and he is the saviour of the body" Eph. 5:23

If the husband loves the wife as Christ loves the church...I do not think a wife will have trouble respecting her husband.

[grace]

Please will you all define what submit means to you. If we knew what you mean by submit then we can understand your line of reasoning better.

Yielding to another

[chosenone]

Please will you all define what submit means to you. If we knew what you mean by submit then we can understand your line of reasoning better.

Yielding to another

i once heard a brilliant descriptine of what a wife submitting to her husband means.
"Submitting to you husband is ducking so that God can hit him" I love that, and there is certanly some truth in it.As wives it isnt our job to change our husbands, that is Gods job

I once heard a brilliant description of what a wife submitting to her husband means.
"Submitting to you husband is ducking so that God can hit him" I love that, and there is certanly some truth in it.As wives it isnt our job to change our husbands, that is Gods job.

[HRoberson]

The lead in thought is "submit to one another." The reason? Because you are all Christians - followers of God.

The six examples are ways of doing just that; they are not three if-then loops, but six examples of how submission might look in your life. These are examples, not rules.

Now this is what I was getting at. I did not do a good job of trying to explain it as this simple wording does much better so forget what I said earlier and build off of the above.

You are now saying that the most important criteria is the submitting to one another as believers in Christ. Now you need to show how you see this worked out in Paul's examples.

Paul provided the examples how this is worked out.

A husband (all-powerful, and controlling) is to rather (willingly live in harmony with his wife, loving his wife to the point of dying for her, and seeing in her, not property but a fellow incarnation of God).
A wife (powerless, controlled, and sniping) is to rather (willingly live in harmony with her husband, honoring him as both her husband and a fellow Christ follower).
Masters (all-powerful, and controlling) is to rather (....his slaves....).
Slaves (powerless.....) is to rather (....his master....).
Fathers (all-powerful.....) is to rather (....his children....).
Children (powerless....) are to rather (....their parents.....).

Why are these folks to invert the common culture in this way? Because they 1) understand the debt they owe to God and seek to mimic His life; and 2) they see in the other the presence of God.

[HRoberson]

Please will you all define what submit means to you. If we knew what you mean by submit then we can understand your line of reasoning better.

Yielding to another

....and looking out for....building them up....seeking to make their existence as pleasant and safe as we can...to the point of giving up what I want for me.

[HRoberson]

For starters is the letter not dealing with unity? Unity does mean one over another does it?
It would be more like 2 or more joined together in one frame of mind living in harmony would it not?

It compares the union of husband and wife  to that of Christ and his bride. So to find the answer I guess we will have to define the relationship of Christ to his bride.

Yes, Ephesians seems to be predicated on a need to urge unity between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Paul lays the foundation for his practical arguments by illustrating that God, and God-in-Christ, as always sought the good of Man (read, "of the other). As a result, His followers are also to speak "only that which builds up," and to live in the Spirit rather than being led by the flesh (which seeks "me first" kinds of relationships).

But Paul is not satisfied with simply getting Jewish and Gentile factions to put up with one another, but he applies the concept to our everyday lives in their most intimate settings. If we can live submissively when we let our hair down, we can probably do so in public when we have to put up with those Gentiles.

[phoebe]

Submitting is yielding my will when it is a support for the growth and development of another. Not just with my husband, but with all Christ-followers. Not yielding-all-the-time-willy-nilly, but when it is beneficial and necessary for growth.

(I don't believe all issues are a matter of support or growth.)

[Sherman Nobles]

I did not say that she is to stop listening to God. God holds the man responsible for most of the family outcome. He is to love, guide and cherish his wife as Christ does the church. The wife is to show respect to her husband.

The wife is just as responsible for her contribution to the family as the man is.  And of course, Paul's instruction for women to respect their husbands does not mean that they are not to love them also.  Nor does his instructions for men to love their wives does not meant that they are not to respect them also.  In fact, love and respect are two sides of the same coin (esteem/honor/value).  Actually, Paul's instructions reflect the most basic relational need differences of men and women.  Men feel valued when others respect them.  Women feel valued when others love them.

You can not have two heads..."For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church; and he is the saviour of the body" Eph. 5:23

If the husband loves the wife as Christ loves the church...I do not think a wife will have trouble respecting her husband.

You've heard the proverbial saying, "Two heads are better than one."  Two people working together is far better than one person in charge.  Team-work is what we should strive for, not rulership. 

Also, just like the man is directed to love his wife unconditionally, so too is the woman instructed to respect her husband unconditionally.  Scripture does not say, woman respect your husband "if"...  Nor does it say, man love your wife "if"...   

Two are better than one, for if one falls, the other can lift him/her up!  God created woman to be a helpmate for men, someone not lower than man like the animals but equal to man in every way.  Man ruling over woman is a result of sin and is not the divine ideal - what we should strive for.  Rather, God created men and women equal and we should value eachother accordingly, I believe.

[grace]

Sherman,

We are all accountable to God...husband and wife. God did not set up marriage to punish the wife, but to protect her as the weaker vessel. We are to submit to one another....for the better of the marriage. But as Christ is the head of the church...the husband is the head of the wife. As Christ guides the church in love...so the husband should guide with love. Yes, the two work together...but if the church chooses not to follow the head...they are in rebellion, and so is the wife. Also if the husband is not under Christ he is also in rebellion.

We can choose to love someone that we do not respect. God loved us and we are not respectful people. Love is a choice!

[phoebe]

Sherman,

We are all accountable to God...husband and wife. God did not set up marriage to punish the wife, but to protect her as the weaker vessel. We are to submit to one another....for the better of the marriage. But as Christ is the head of the church...the husband is the head of the wife. As Christ guides the church in love...so the husband should guide with love. Yes, the two work together...but if the church chooses not to follow the head...they are in rebellion, and so is the wife. Also if the husband is not under Christ he is also in rebellion.

We can choose to love someone that we do not respect. God loved us and we are not respectful people. Love is a choice!

It is not about physical strength. If it were, men would have been the ones birthing babies. "the weaker vessel" has been grossly misunderstood. A literal translation of 1 Pet. 3:7  will lead you in the wrong direction. It obviously is a metaphor, as women are not "vessels" or containers. The idea of asthenes skeuos, "weaker livelihood",  is of one in a disadvantaged position for having a means for a living (money for food & shelter). The woman depended on her husband for that living (food & shelter), and often had to turn to prostitution when her husband would kick her out without giving her a legal divorce - which would allow her to marry again, and the new husband would then provide for her food & shelter. Peter is reminding the husbands that they are to remember that their wives are joint-heirs with them in God's Kingdom, and that if they treat their wives wrongly, their prayers to God will be blocked.

It isn't about a physical disadvantage, although that is the metaphor used. It is about a cultural disadvantage for the wives, and how, if not treated with the proper respect do a child of God, that could work against the spiritual lives of the husbands.

[WileyClarkson]

IMO, a large part of the misunderstanding of how women are to be treated is tied up in the extremly poor translations of the Hebrew and Greek in modern English.  Unfortunately, TRADITION almost totally controls the translation of the difficult words in both ancient languages and TRADITION also controls the understanding of the context.  We have been preached to and had it drilled into us for 2000 years that male domination of the marriage and the church is what God wants and women are to be submissive to what ever men/husbands want or they are not following God's wishes.  Translation over the last 2000 years has been controlled by males (not to mention money in recent years!) and up into the last 100 years, women have had very little input into translation, actual teaching, preaching, etc, in the church and this has been the state of affairs, likewise, for the marriage.  We try to understand the descriptions of marriage using the customs, laws and practices of modern times.  One could say that we are wearing glasses that filter the light.  A good example of this is the difference of looking at an object with regular clear glasses and wearing a polarized set of glasses.  The glare that blocks our vision with the regular glasses is blocked by the polarized glasses and a different scene is observed.  Serious fishermen see fish under the surface of the water with polarized glasses while fishermen with normal glasses just see the glaring light reflected off the surgace of the water! To understand what what Jesus said regarding gender, marriage, and divorce and what Paul was addressing in his letters, one must wear polarized glasses to see past the glare of tradition, modern English, and modern customs.

A very good example of this is translation problem is the traditional view that Eve was a "helper" of lesser status and that God did not instruct her eqaully as well as Adam.  The best way to demonstrate this is by posting part of an article by Bobby Valentine, an member of this forum who posts here occassionally.  His blog is
http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/.  He has published the following article on his blog and on my web site and it is a study of the meaning of the Hebrew word that is traditionally translated in a lesser status context as helpmeet, etc, in most of our Bibles. I have posted a small part of the study but to really understand what Bobby is ssaying, read his full study either on his blog or my web site.

http://www.clarksons.org/articles/GenesisHelper.htm

What Did God Say? Genesis 2.18b and Man's "Helper"
What Did God Say? Genesis 2.18b and Man's "Helper"

...............................................
God solved the loneliness of the Man by giving him, not an assistant, but giving him an equal companion in the journey of life. God gave him a strength or power that is equal to him.

Thus while the NRSV retains the translation fossil of "helper

[Sherman Nobles]

Hi Grace,

Simply put, I believe that Paul was speaking Christian principles into the culture of the day without seeking to radically change the culture.  In otherwords, it's as if he's saying "Seeing that you're in such an oppressive patriarichal culture, the best way to live is for the men to scrificially love their wives as Christ loved the church; and for the women to respect and submit to their husbands."  His statements are instructions on how to live in that culture.  And there are of course things we can draw from these instructions like mutual love, respect, and submission.  But I don't believe Paul is saying that this patriarchy is the best way to structure a marriage relationship.  Rather, I believe that if Paul was asked about the best way to structure a family that he would say an Egalitarian model is the divine ideal - submitting to one another in the love of Christ. 

In Western culture, gender equality is an assumed truth, a common value shared by most people.  Young ladies are raised with the expectation of being treated with equal respect and dignity as a man, equal pay for equal work, equal opportunities for advancement in buisness, equal standing as citizens, equal, equal, equal....  But when they enter marriage, patriarchy expects of them to not be equal, but to be subservient, submissive, to allow the husband to rule.  Both young men and young women who have been raised with gender equality as an assumed truth, a world view, both struggle to know how to function in a patriarichal marriage.  However, they are well situated to function in an egalitarian model, especially if that was taught and supported in their church. 

Well, we could go on and on about this but it's likely we'll not change eachother's beliefs.  I appreciate you grace, your passion for truth, and your graceful posts.

Blessings,
Sherman

[Sherman Nobles]

Concerning 1 Pet.3:7, the wife being the weaker vessel, I once asked the Lord what he meant by that, especially considering that my wife is such a strong person, much stronger than I am in many ways.  I am physically stronger, but she is much more in tune with the Spirit than I am, far more intuitive than I am, much more compassionate, and very smart.  I recall saying, "So what do You mean by her being the 'weaker vessel'?"

In response the Lord said to me, "Remember, I made you like a cast iron pot; but I made her like a China vase!" 

I've always found it amazing how when the Lord speaks to you, He says little, but each phrase carries tremendous meaning and as you meditate on the word of God it unfolds, unpacks into volumes that change you at the core of your being.  As I meditated on that word I realized that I needed to value her strengths and protect her weaknesses, to honor her as a co-heir of Christ, one who carries the presense of the Lord just as I do, one who is a child of God just as I am. 

I was also challenged to be very gentle with her, to use my strengths to support her, to protect her, to provide for her, to serve her, to influence her for the good, and to listen to her and value her wisdom and perception as a co-heir of Christ, one also filled with the Holy Spirit.

[grace]

Concerning 1 Pet.3:7, the wife being the weaker vessel, I once asked the Lord what he meant by that, especially considering that my wife is such a strong person, much stronger than I am in many ways.  I am physically stronger, but she is much more in tune with the Spirit than I am, far more intuitive than I am, much more compassionate, and very smart.  I recall saying, "So what do You mean by her being the 'weaker vessel'?"

In response the Lord said to me, "Remember, I made you like a cast iron pot; but I made her like a China vase!" 

I've always found it amazing how when the Lord speaks to you, He says little, but each phrase carries tremendous meaning and as you meditate on the word of God it unfolds, unpacks into volumes that change you at the core of your being.  As I meditated on that word I realized that I needed to value her strengths and protect her weaknesses, to honor her as a co-heir of Christ, one who carries the presense of the Lord just as I do, one who is a child of God just as I am. 

I was also challenged to be very gentle with her, to use my strengths to support her, to protect her, to provide for her, to serve her, to influence her for the good, and to listen to her and value her wisdom and perception as a co-heir of Christ, one also filled with the Holy Spirit.

I just know that I am in a marriage that my husband loves and respects my views, never tries to rule over me. I have confidence in all his decisions. We work together...but if there is ever a disagreement, his decision stands. I respect that.....to tell you the truth, most of the time I disagree with him and allow him to make the call...He is usually right.

[GTM]

Grace

You said:

I just know that I am in a marriage that my husband loves and respects my views, never tries to rule over me. I have confidence in all his decisions. We work together...but if there is ever a disagreement, his decision stands. I respect that.....to tell you the truth, most of the time I disagree with him and allow him to make the call...He is usually right.

Interesting!

Not all men are good at making decisions. But a wise man recognizes the virtues of his wife and in my case I often find myself yielding to my wife in the decision making process.


GTM

[Volkmar]

HR and Wiley and Phoebe and Sherman have made excellent observations/input.

Continuing one of Wiley's major thoughts about TRADITIONALISM in translation (btw, a translational tradition in and of itself is not a bad thing, provided the translational work is true to the original language, just not partly true) has to do with the way "head" has been (mis-)understood by many translators and readers.  "Kephale" does not primarily, and certainly not exclusively, mean "boss" or "chief injun" or "the bloke that calls the shots" in the Koine Greek at the time that Paul wrote, rather it coveys more the meaning of sustainer, protector, organizing principle, and source of life.

Here's an article that I noticed several years ago...I don't think it's available on the web any longer, and I'm not sure who wrote it, however, it tracks well with my own studies.

The word that means head in Hebrew is rosh.

Rosh can mean the first in a series. Or it can mean the beginning, the source. It is often used to indicate the top of a mountain or building. It is commonly used to indicate the chief of a family or clan.

Rosh can suggest priority, as in God's promise to make Israel the head and not the tail among the nations.

In the OT, the word is also used to indicate bureaucratic rank or position.

The Greek term is kephale. It is used much like rosh, to indicate the head of a person, the beginning of a month, the source or mouth of a river, etc. The Greeks viewed the head as the superior member of the body, the seat of reason and authority.

There are...three theologically significant uses of "head

[Volkmar]

Concerning 1 Pet.3:7, the wife being the weaker vessel, I once asked the Lord what he meant by that, especially considering that my wife is such a strong person, much stronger than I am in many ways.  I am physically stronger, but she is much more in tune with the Spirit than I am, far more intuitive than I am, much more compassionate, and very smart.  I recall saying, "So what do You mean by her being the 'weaker vessel'?"

In response the Lord said to me, "Remember, I made you like a cast iron pot; but I made her like a China vase!" 

I've always found it amazing how when the Lord speaks to you, He says little, but each phrase carries tremendous meaning and as you meditate on the word of God it unfolds, unpacks into volumes that change you at the core of your being.  As I meditated on that word I realized that I needed to value her strengths and protect her weaknesses, to honor her as a co-heir of Christ, one who carries the presense of the Lord just as I do, one who is a child of God just as I am. 

I was also challenged to be very gentle with her, to use my strengths to support her, to protect her, to provide for her, to serve her, to influence her for the good, and to listen to her and value her wisdom and perception as a co-heir of Christ, one also filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sherman,

That's exactly the same situation that I've found myself in relative to my wife.  ;o)


V

[Harold]

This is what I have come to see, God in His wisdom made the man make the decisions. Then He gave to the woman the firm and undeniable right to the phrase, " I told you so."

FTL

BTW living lovingly together is far better than marching orders. Any man who plays Cesare in his house will one day experience Spartacus.

[grace]

Grace

You said:

I just know that I am in a marriage that my husband loves and respects my views, never tries to rule over me. I have confidence in all his decisions. We work together...but if there is ever a disagreement, his decision stands. I respect that.....to tell you the truth, most of the time I disagree with him and allow him to make the call...He is usually right.

Interesting!

Not all men are good at making decisions. But a wise man recognizes the virtues of his wife and in my case I often find myself yielding to my wife in the decision making process.


GTM

I am not saying that my husband does not let me make decisions...he does, probably more than I like too. But when it comes to us not agreeing on a matter, I recognize that God gave him to me... He is the head. So I submit to his decision.

If every thing is run like God intended it too...it is so much smoother.

[GTM]

Grace

God bless you for your commitment to the Lord

GTM

[Sherman Nobles]

I just know that I am in a marriage that my husband loves and respects my views, never tries to rule over me. I have confidence in all his decisions. We work together...but if there is ever a disagreement, his decision stands. I respect that.....to tell you the truth, most of the time I disagree with him and allow him to make the call...He is usually right.

That's cool grace; I'm very glad you're in a happy marriage.  My wife and I too are very happy though we try to seek agreement before all major decisions are made and even many minor ones. We rely on eachother's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses.  The more important the decision, the more we seek agreement.

[phoebe]

There was a point in time when my husband and I were considering leaving a church. One week, he was ready and I was not, the next week I was ready and he was not. This went on for months. We agreed that we would not leave unless we both were in agreement that the time was right, fully respecting each other, believing that God would guide us to that point - if, indeed, that was a point we were supposed to come to. In a hierarchy pattern, believing the husband to be the "head" or the "leader" of the family, we would have left when my husband was ready whether I was ready or not, as we could not find ourselves in agreement at the same time. Leaving when I was not ready could have caused long-term emotional, marital, and spiritual issues. Leaving in agreement gave us a baggage-free exit, freedom, peace, and a recognition of each other's value in our marriage that we would not have had otherwise. No regrets, no blame. No "it was your idea" or "this is all your fault" to be thrown in the other's face at some opportune moment.

We left when my husband took a job offer in another town. This is how mutual respect and submission works. We believe this was God's plan for us, and because we practiced mutual submission, neither of us got in God's way.

We have lived in mutual submission for 19 years. Mutual submission is how we show love to each other, not just in our marriage, but in all our relationships, as Paul describes to us the picture of living lives filled with the Spirit in Eph 5:21.

[Volkmar]

This is what I have come to see, God in His wisdom made the man make the decisions. Then He gave to the woman the firm and undeniable right to the phrase, " I told you so."

FTL

BTW living lovingly together is far better than marching orders. Any man who plays Cesare in his house will one day experience Spartacus.

Any man who plays Cesare in his house will one day experience Spartacus.

Harold, I'm going to put that on a post-it and post it on my mirror...   



V

[WileyClarkson]

Volkmar posted this quote:

Thus Paul's appeal is not that women take a subordinate place in the church. His appeal is that they recognize the fact of an order in creation that is unchanged by the wonderful message that in Christ all are equal.

This is not the only time that the order of creation is brought up and misunderstood due to tradition.  1 Tim 2:11-15 is an excellent example of how a mistranslation of the Greek to the English can lead to very big problems!  Scholars are moving toward the understanding in 1 Tim 2 that Paul was telling Timothy not to let a group of women in the church in Ephesus teach that women came before men in the Creation.  This is a strongly held belief of Gnosticism, in both pagan and Christian sects of Gnosticism.  That is why Paul gives the statement about order--again.  He addresses a number of Gnostic beliefs that were being taught in the church in Ephesus.  Another belief he addressed in those verses was a difficult idea to understand unless you know the proto Gnostic beliefs of that time period.  He tells the women they will be saved through child birth, which the Gnostics did not like bringing children into the world.  Through child birth the women have broken the Gnostic hold on them.  That short statement has been understood in a number of ways, including that Paul was telling the women that the birth of the Christ child would save them.  However, the view that they should have children and that childbirth will save them by breaking the hold of the Gnostic belief system fits the context of the sentence in 1 Tim 2.  When the greek word authentein is understood in the most recent light of archaeology, it is apparent that tradition has controlled translation again.  In the best translation of the sentence, the translation falls into context of the overall letter rather than setting up a restriction for all time on women.

.  12  I most certainly do not grant authority  to a woman to teach  that she is the originator  of a man  -rather, she is not to cause a fuss - 13 for Adam was formed first, then Eve.  14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman made a mistake  as she was beguiled,  15 and she will be saved by means of the Birth of the Child  if they continue to be trustworthy, loving and holy and have good sense.

Interestingly, the person who did this translation totally misses the implication that childbirth has on Gnostic beliefs and translates v15 to mean Birth of the Child  or Jesus.  While I think that is a possible rendering based on my readings and study, I do not feel it matches the overall Gnostic context that Paul is writing to which is the influence and invasion of the church teachings by Gnostic beliefs, presumably brought in by several women and some of the elders who Paul addressed in Acts 20 apx 2.5 years earlier:

20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and{TR, NU omit "the Lord and"} God which he purchased with his own blood.
20:29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
20:30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Ephesus already had elders BEFORE 1 Tim was written.  This is something that seems to also be missed by those who teach a traditional rendering of 1 Tim.  Appointing elders was not new to Ephesus but apparently posibbly the wrong guidelines had been used for making elders.  Also, quite possibly many or all of the elders left after the problems began and the church that Timothy was working in was struggling with the influence of Gnosticism, without the primary teachers, the elders, and some of the elders in Acts apparently had a hand in bringing into the church in Ephesus.  This heretical teaching was apparently carried on by a few women who were influenced by Gnostic beliefs.

[chosenone]

I respect and trust my husband to such an extent that I have no problems with being submissive to him as and when necessary. I am not saying that this is always easy for me because like most women, I do like to usually get my own way, but that isnt good and certanly isnt what God tells me.
My husband is such an easy going man that he will tend to give in to things, but this is when I need to allow him to be the head, and not to try to be the head myself.We each have our part to play.  God knows us SO well and that is why husbands are told one thing and wives another (and it is different things)
God has taught me a lot about marriage and what we each are supposed to do, and as usual He knows best and we can trust Him. After all, He made us and marriage was His idea.

[Volkmar]

I respect and trust my husband to such an extent that I have no problems with being submissive to him as and when necessary. I am not saying that this is always easy for me because like most women, I do like to usually get my own way, but that isnt good and certanly isnt what God tells me.
My husband is such an easy going man that he will tend to give in to things, but this is when I need to allow him to be the head, and not to try to be the head myself.We each have our part to play.  God knows us SO well and that is why husbands are told one thing and wives another (and it is different things)
God has taught me a lot about marriage and what we each are supposed to do, and as usual He knows best and we can trust Him. After all, He made us and marriage was His idea.

chosenone,

It sounds like you have a good marriage, or at least one you are comfortable in.

It does seem, however, that you tend to view "headship" in terms of command/authority structure.  And, imo, that is missing the point of what Paul teaches in I Cor. 11 and Eph. 5 and other passages.

Having made that observation--which might not be entirely accurate because I only know what little you have actually stated, nor do I need to know more, but you seem to be concentrating on what you perceive as the good quality of the marriage you have and how it seems to align with your understanding of "headship"--I have an uneasy feeling that when an internal challenge to the balance you presently have in your marriage arises you may find yourself totally knocked off track, so to speak.

Forgive me if you think I've been presumptious...and I won't argue if you think that is the case.  If you read between the lines, Wiley and Phoebe have been hinting in this direction.



V 

[chosenone]

I respect and trust my husband to such an extent that I have no problems with being submissive to him as and when necessary. I am not saying that this is always easy for me because like most women, I do like to usually get my own way, but that isnt good and certanly isnt what God tells me.
My husband is such an easy going man that he will tend to give in to things, but this is when I need to allow him to be the head, and not to try to be the head myself.We each have our part to play.  God knows us SO well and that is why husbands are told one thing and wives another (and it is different things)
God has taught me a lot about marriage and what we each are supposed to do, and as usual He knows best and we can trust Him. After all, He made us and marriage was His idea.

chosenone,

It sounds like you have a good marriage, or at least one you are comfortable in.

It does seem, however, that you tend to view "headship" in terms of command/authority structure.  And, imo, that is missing the point of what Paul teaches in I Cor. 11 and Eph. 5 and other passages.

Having made that observation--which might not be entirely accurate because I only know what little you have actually stated, nor do I need to know more, but you seem to be concentrating on what you perceive as the good quality of the marriage you have and how it seems to align with your understanding of "headship"--I have an uneasy feeling that when an internal challenge to the balance you presently have in your marriage arises you may find yourself totally knocked off track, so to speak.

Forgive me if you think I've been presumptious...and I won't argue if you think that is the case.  If you read between the lines, Wiley and Phoebe have been hinting in this direction.



V 

Thanks for your feedback. Thank you also for your nice tone, (it makes a VERY welcome change after my recent battering from a couple of people on the marriage forum).
Yes We do have an excellent marriage, in fact I would say that it is better than I could ever have imagined or hoped that a marriage could be, and we have been through hard times (not becuase of us but becuase of outside events) and we have always come through anything like this stronger than before. We communicate widely on all things and that is a real key to success I feel.

I dont see my husbands role as an authority figure as in him being bossy or domineering (he wouldnt know how to be like this if he tried).He is a very laid back, very patient Australian guy. I do however consider him to be the head of the marriage and the family,and I respect him highly becuase he is a very moral, good and godly man . I trust him implicitly in all things.   

[Volkmar]

I respect and trust my husband to such an extent that I have no problems with being submissive to him as and when necessary. I am not saying that this is always easy for me because like most women, I do like to usually get my own way, but that isnt good and certanly isnt what God tells me.
My husband is such an easy going man that he will tend to give in to things, but this is when I need to allow him to be the head, and not to try to be the head myself.We each have our part to play.  God knows us SO well and that is why husbands are told one thing and wives another (and it is different things)
God has taught me a lot about marriage and what we each are supposed to do, and as usual He knows best and we can trust Him. After all, He made us and marriage was His idea.

chosenone,

It sounds like you have a good marriage, or at least one you are comfortable in.

It does seem, however, that you tend to view "headship" in terms of command/authority structure.  And, imo, that is missing the point of what Paul teaches in I Cor. 11 and Eph. 5 and other passages.

Having made that observation--which might not be entirely accurate because I only know what little you have actually stated, nor do I need to know more, but you seem to be concentrating on what you perceive as the good quality of the marriage you have and how it seems to align with your understanding of "headship"--I have an uneasy feeling that when an internal challenge to the balance you presently have in your marriage arises you may find yourself totally knocked off track, so to speak.

Forgive me if you think I've been presumptious...and I won't argue if you think that is the case.  If you read between the lines, Wiley and Phoebe have been hinting in this direction.



V 

Thanks for your feedback. Thank you also for your nice tone, (it makes a VERY welcome change after my recent battering from a couple of people on the marriage forum).
Yes We do have an excellent marriage, in fact I would say that it is better than I could ever have imagined or hoped that a marriage could be, and we have been through hard times (not becuase of us but becuase of outside events) and we have always come through anything like this stronger than before. We communicate widely on all things and that is a real key to success I feel.

I dont see my husbands role as an authority figure as in him being bossy or domineering (he wouldnt know how to be like this if he tried).He is a very laid back, very patient Australian guy. I do however consider him to be the head of the marriage and the family,and I respect him highly becuase he is a very moral, good and godly man . I trust him implicitly in all things.  

Your husband sounds to be a good man...for an Aussie, that is...  ;o)

Our son just finished two years at HillSong in Sydney.  That put some fire in his belly.


V

[phoebe]

It seems there may be a perception that mutuality (as opposed to a patriarchal hierarchy of male headship) is about one person "getting their way". If so, then the concept of mutuality as concerns submission has been completely missed. It is fully selflessness by both parties.

God, through Scripture, doesn't support or command or teach male authority/headship. It just isn't there.

[Just As I Am]

It seems there may be a perception that mutuality (as opposed to a patriarchal hierarchy of male headship) is about one person "getting their way". If so, then the concept of mutuality as concerns submission has been completely missed. It is fully selflessness by both parties.

God, through Scripture, doesn't support or command or teach male authority/headship. It just isn't there.

I haven't read this all, but this is enough. Mutual submission is the only type of submission that God asks of any of us.

[Volkmar]

Amen to both Phoebe and JustIAM.



V