Wives submit to your husbands

[Volkmar]

So Christ has mutual submission to the church?

Yes. 

Eph. 2:4-6 Paul says that because of God's love for us He made us "alive" with and in Christ--even though we were "dead in transgressions" -- and "raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms".  And God did this "in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

In order for that to be accomplished the Son submitted to the Father, and in so doing the Son humbled himself to become as we are...the Son submitted to becoming human for humanities' sake.  That is normally called "kenosis", or IOW's--the submission of Christ to the Father for the benefit of the people whom the Father has chosen to redeem.

That's what "Jesus--the cross--and the blood" is all about.

And, that's why in 5:25ff Paul waxes rhapsodic when he describes Christ' love for the church as the epitome of the husband's love for the wife...Christ gave himself up for her, and did so by totally sacrificing himself for her benefit.  That is true submission.  By understanding that great love we learn to love greatly the One who gave Himself for us and we learn to love one another in the same way.


V

[Volkmar]

I don't see him ever even submitting to anybody but the Father.  Certainly not to the apostles (the closest members in his "congregation")  Nor do I find Paul submitting leadership to ... anybody.

Jesus constantly "submitted" to his disciples...the most notable being when he washed their feet (not to mention going to the cross for them and us).

Paul learned mutual submission while he was a "rank and file" member of the church in Antioch.  However, I would not hold Paul up as a perfect example in every instance--and that probably goes a long way in understanding why God allowed Paul's "thorn in the flesh" to persist, saying, "my grace is sufficient".  (Barnabas and Apollos seemed to be members of the small club who could tell Paul to "take a flying leap" when Paul was notoriously out of line.  Why is it that so many Believers confuse Paul with Jesus?)


V

[Volkmar]

The word submission (Eph. 5:21). It is made up of two parts. Hupotasso is the word. Hupo means "under" or "by" or "by means of" or "with." Tasso means "to arrange under." It connotes a placement of someone else’s desires above your own. To be in subjection is to have someone else’s mind and heart before yours and to want to live to bless someone else instead of blessing ourselves.

Submission is not a bad thing!

...

Whoever said it was? It is bad when it is a dysfunction, rather than a mutual function. If one is submitting because one feels obligated to or so that the other feels elevated above another, it is a dysfunction. If one submits out of love and respect so that the other can be all that God created them to be, then it is functioning as Christ exampled it. Christ did not example an earthly pattern of hierarchy for us. Not once.

hupotasso is not an imperative, but a participle. The verb is "be filled". It means "support", "supportive", "be attached to". Even if mistranslated as "submit", it would only correctly be translated as "submitting to one another".

Did you not read the rest of my post? I mentioned that Jesus submitted to God (to go to the cross)...He loved us! So we submit to Him by honoring that love.

How do you submit to our Lord?

Grace,

Speaking of "submitting to the Lord"...

Do you not intend answering my direct question addressed to you on page 26 of this thread, post #384 ?  My question consist of two words.


V

[kensington]

(I am wondering why this thread was moved to the "marriage" forum, as it is clearly an issue of theology. It affects marriages, yes, but it is something to be discussed by everyone, not just the married. Something to be clear and in agreement on PREmarriage, not POSTmarriage.)

It's not just a theology issue... it concerns marriage. The title is specific... "Wives submit to your husbands"...

I wondered why it wasn't moved sooner, I just never asked.  Most of the people discussing are married, and most of them post input based on their marriage.  It belongs here. IMO.

Wiley, why did this thread get moved to an outer orbit of a lesser star?  ;o)


V

[kensington]

"Now that is not to say that a man can not work for a woman.  As long as it is kept on a professional level.  But I will guarantee you, that no man would want a woman drill sergant in boot camp.   And I think it is a very bad idea that they put women and men in the armed forces in such a manner that they are to be looked at as equal.  If in a battle situation, if a man got shot and falls.  He might get one or two to help him up.  But if a woman gets shot and hits the ground. She will get 50 men to help her out.   And a man will stick his head out way beyond what he would do for another man, just because she is a woman.  That is because it is built into our design.  And if a man does not help out a woman, he is looked down upon from other men."

Let me help and clear this up... men don't have women drill sgt's.  My husband pushed 6 divisions as an RDC (Recruit Division Commander) in Greatlakes.  Men drill men, and women drill women divisions... if it is a co-ed division, there will be a woman for the women, and a man for the man. Men are not left to have total authority over women in the armed forces.  That would be irresponsible.  There are times a division can drill together and times they can't, and RDC or DC are there for both.

Second..  When ANYONE is wounded in battle, be it a man or a woman... no one is left behind or to deal with it alone.  That is not how our military works.  They will lay down their lives for you, it doesn't matter your gender... the women didn't give up being a human when she joined the military... no man left behind is the motto for all soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines.  I promise.

[phoebe]

Since I didn't get a response to my question, has anyone in this discussion seen the movie FireProof?

It was in the theaters about 4 months ago and is now out on DVD.  It is about a fireman who decides to try to save his marriage.  In the process of doing that, he becomes aware of just how selfish he was and, after accepting Christ, changes how he treats his wife by following a diary given to him by his father.  In the process, the wife, who has been terribly hurt by male ego selfishness, and is just a little selfish in some ways also, though the efforts of her husband's change, comes around to reaffirming their marriage at the end of the show.  It is a show that is based in the application of mutual submission.

If you haven't seen this show, it is well worth the $20 you will spend to purchase the DVD at Wal Mart!

THAT'S what I needed to hear! I'll be in town on Wednesday. WalMart, here I come!

[Mystery Man]

I don't see him ever even submitting to anybody but the Father.  Certainly not to the apostles (the closest members in his "congregation")  Nor do I find Paul submitting leadership to ... anybody.

Jesus constantly "submitted" to his disciples...the most notable being when he washed their feet (not to mention going to the cross for them and us).

Paul learned mutual submission while he was a "rank and file" member of the church in Antioch.  However, I would not hold Paul up as a perfect example in every instance--and that probably goes a long way in understanding why God allowed Paul's "thorn in the flesh" to persist, saying, "my grace is sufficient".  (Barnabas and Apollos seemed to be members of the small club who could tell Paul to "take a flying leap" when Paul was notoriously out of line.  Why is it that so many Believers confuse Paul with Jesus?)


V

So your suggesting that the disciples "asked" Jesus to wash their feet, and the disciples asked Jesus to die for them ?  Thus submitting unto the desires of the disciples.

Talk about a twist !

[Mystery Man]

"Now that is not to say that a man can not work for a woman.  As long as it is kept on a professional level.  But I will guarantee you, that no man would want a woman drill sergant in boot camp.   And I think it is a very bad idea that they put women and men in the armed forces in such a manner that they are to be looked at as equal.  If in a battle situation, if a man got shot and falls.  He might get one or two to help him up.  But if a woman gets shot and hits the ground. She will get 50 men to help her out.   And a man will stick his head out way beyond what he would do for another man, just because she is a woman.  That is because it is built into our design.  And if a man does not help out a woman, he is looked down upon from other men."

Let me help and clear this up... men don't have women drill sgt's.  My husband pushed 6 divisions as an RDC (Recruit Division Commander) in Greatlakes.  Men drill men, and women drill women divisions... if it is a co-ed division, there will be a woman for the women, and a man for the man. Men are not left to have total authority over women in the armed forces.  That would be irresponsible.  There are times a division can drill together and times they can't, and RDC or DC are there for both.

Second..  When ANYONE is wounded in battle, be it a man or a woman... no one is left behind or to deal with it alone.  That is not how our military works.  They will lay down their lives for you, it doesn't matter your gender... the women didn't give up being a human when she joined the military... no man left behind is the motto for all soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines.  I promise.

I know how the military works. LOL

My point was this is how the mind of a man works.  It is designed by God to work this way.  Sure, men and women can be trained to work under the principles of the military.  They are "trained" to do so.  But God built into a man something you do not train them to be.  It is engrained into their being..

[chosenone]

Wow.  31 pages when Ephesians 5 is so clear.

What happened to the RM mantra of "speak where the bible speaks, be silent where the bible is silent?"

EXACTLY Gary. It is so clear what these verses are saying. It is up to us whether we obey them or not, BUT that doesnt mean that they are not there.
many have spent a long time on these subjercts trying to deny what is said, but whether they like it or not and whether they put it into practice or not IT IS THERE.
Wives be subject (be submissive to and adapt yourselves)to your own husbands as (a service to) the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, Himself the saviour of (His) body.
As the church is subject to Christ,so let wives be subject in everything to their husbands. 

I am not a theologian but these verses just dont seem complicated to me. They seem simple and easy to understand. I just DONT GET what the problem is. We either do them or we dont. We either obey Gods design for marriage or we dont. if we dont them we shouldnt be trying to persuade others that they shouldnt either, or make them feel that they are somehow being 'less than' because they are wanting to be obedient to God in this . We are doing it a  a service to the lord and not just to our husbands. 

[phoebe]

If it's so darn clear, then why do most people totally ignore the full message of the passage, and focus only on the submission of wives? When taught, it should be taught in its fullness, that of being full with God's Spirit living in us, resulting in the submission of everyone to each other? Paul didn't single out wives. Nor should we. When we do, we teach a false message.

[Mac]

I am not a theologian but these verses just dont seem complicated to me. They seem simple and easy to understand. I just DONT GET what the problem is. We either do them or we dont. We either obey Gods design for marriage or we dont. if we dont them we shouldnt be trying to persuade others that they shouldnt either, or make them feel that they are somehow being 'less than' because they are wanting to be obedient to God in this . We are doing it a  a service to the lord and not just to our husbands. 

It really is simple Chosenone. It isn't complicated.. The scriptures do say what they say.. It is just a simple fact that some people have a problem with being considered submissive. They take offense of being the submissive one because THEY consider that as having been labeled a "lesser" part of a union. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

I had a relationship with a "bossy" woman. I was married to her for 10 years. We fought daily for 10 years. Primarily because she wanted her way.. And come hail or high water, she was going to get her way. The ONLY way to stop the fighting was to cede ground. Period. As in any relationship on earth, whether it be animal, insect or human, there must be a "head". And she meant she was going to be the "head".

It sounds real cozy to say "mutual submission". When you really think about, it is almost impossible for that to happen in a true sense. Someone HAS to be the ultimate decision maker. If not, what happens when something comes up but you see differently on how to deal with it? A decision has to be made NOW. Not tomorrow... Not 2 hours from now... NOW. Who makes it? I will assure you of this, you can throw a lot of the cheerleaders for "mutual submission" out if it really came down to it. It is mutual as long as they get their way.. But that isn't mutual at all... I agree with the idea of mutual submission as far as each having input. Each owning 50% of the relationship. NEVER a decision being made without the consideration of ones needs or wishes... But in the end, someone must decide..

On a side note... I find it strange that scripture is God's word breathed and should be used for rebuke and teaching... (2nd Timothy chapter 3:14-17 and 4:1-5) However some need to "re-translate" the "old" version because it doesn't pertain to today's culture... Try to insist it says something it doesn't. Either the bible is right or it is wrong. I have been around many people who have PHD's, Doctorate's in Divinity, etc... I have seen studiers of Greek, Hebrew, Latin etc... all argue about the translational meaning of a said word... For me it is simple... I will take God's word for what it is... Truth and God's word breathed.. I will take the Word over man's word.. Period.. And if that offends anyones senses, well I am sorry for that..

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. [/u]

[chosenone]

If it's so darn clear, then why do most people totally ignore the full message of the passage, and focus only on the submission of wives? When taught, it should be taught in its fullness, that of being full with God's Spirit living in us, resulting in the submission of everyone to each other? Paul didn't single out wives. Nor should we. When we do, we teach a false message.

I have mentioned before about what God tells husbands to do and that is up to the husband to obey. Forgive me if I am wrong but this thread is about wives and not husbands. Of course we can talk about husbands loving their wives etc if you like or maybe start anoother thread about it but this one is called wives submitting to their husbands, so that is what I have been talking about. I am a wife so I am responsible for what God tells me to do. My husband is responsible for what God tells him to do. it is not my responsibility to tell my husband what to do(although sometimes it is tempting  but to obey God myself.
The passages that you talk about concerning mutual submission arent directed to husbands and wives  or marriage. There are many instructions given for marriage but this isnt one of them.No where does it tell husbands to submit to wives. I may not like it, you may not like it but it is there nonetheless.

[chosenone]

I am not a theologian but these verses just dont seem complicated to me. They seem simple and easy to understand. I just DONT GET what the problem is. We either do them or we dont. We either obey Gods design for marriage or we dont. if we dont them we shouldnt be trying to persuade others that they shouldnt either, or make them feel that they are somehow being 'less than' because they are wanting to be obedient to God in this . We are doing it a  a service to the lord and not just to our husbands. 

It really is simple Chosenone. It isn't complicated.. The scriptures do say what they say.. It is just a simple fact that some people have a problem with being considered submissive. They take offense of being the submissive one because THEY consider that as having been labeled a "lesser" part of a union. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

I had a relationship with a "bossy" woman. I was married to her for 10 years. We fought daily for 10 years. Primarily because she wanted her way.. And come hail or high water, she was going to get her way. The ONLY way to stop the fighting was to cede ground. Period. As in any relationship on earth, whether it be animal, insect or human, there must be a "head". And she meant she was going to be the "head".

It sounds real cozy to say "mutual submission". When you really think about, it is almost impossible for that to happen in a true sense. Someone HAS to be the ultimate decision maker. If not, what happens when something comes up but you see differently on how to deal with it? A decision has to be made NOW. Not tomorrow... Not 2 hours from now... NOW. Who makes it? I will assure you of this, you can throw a lot of the cheerleaders for "mutual submission" out if it really came down to it. It is mutual as long as they get their way.. But that isn't mutual at all... I agree with the idea of mutual submission as far as each having input. Each owning 50% of the relationship. NEVER a decision being made without the consideration of ones needs or wishes... But in the end, someone must decide..

On a side note... I find it strange that scripture is God's word breathed and should be used for rebuke and teaching... (2nd Timothy chapter 3:14-17 and 4:1-5) However some need to "re-translate" the "old" version because it doesn't pertain to today's culture... Try to insist it says something it doesn't. Either the bible is right or it is wrong. I have been around many people who have PHD's, Doctorate's in Divinity, etc... I have seen studiers of Greek, Hebrew, Latin etc... all argue about the translational meaning of a said word... For me it is simple... I will take God's word for what it is... Truth and God's word breathed.. I will take the Word over man's word.. Period.. And if that offends anyones senses, well I am sorry for that..

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. [/u]

Goodness me mac you could be talking about my husbands  ex wife. She was very bossy and controlling and like your ex she was going to get her way. She said that my husband wasnt doing everything the 'right' way and so she had to do it. It had to be done HER way or not at all. Like you, he used to give in or there would have been constant war and he said it was like banging your head very hard against a brick wall, and there was no way to keep the peace except give in. He stood it for 23 years until fortunately (for him)she had an affair and decided that she wanted to marry this other guy (a  non Christian who had already been married 3 times)) so divorced him. Unfortunately for her he never asked her, so she is now alone.

The thing is that my husband is a very good and godly man, but was never even given the chance with her.He has all the qualities needed to be a good head of our family, but she never gave him the space to be the head as she is told to do by God. She was totally disobedient and becuase of that their marriage wasnt good or happy and ended in dsisaster.

Well its her BIG loss and my BIG gain, so I am happy.I think this is why I try to do what God tells me as he has never had the chance before to be the head as he should be. One thing someone said to me is that a man can usually only be the head  IF the wife allows him to be, and that has a lot of truth in it.

yes you are right there always needs to be a head. In marriage this is to be the husband.

[fanuvmxpx]

Complex ?

So, would you or wouldn't you die for your wife ?   If you say yes, would you ask her to decide for you first ?

I would definitely die if it meant she might live (which I covered in my "split second decisions" statement in my prior post). Why would I need to ask her to decide? I'm confused by your question.

[Mac]

If it's so darn clear, then why do most people totally ignore the full message of the passage, and focus only on the submission of wives?

What exactly are we ignoring Phoebe? Most on here have said that mutual consideration is the right thing to do.. Wives and husbands having equal input into the decision making process... However, the difference is the "submitting husband" thing.. Can you please tell me in what scripture do you find that instruction for a marriage? I am really interested in knowing this. Look, both sexes are totally equal in Christ: co-heirs; both fully made in the image of God; both fully accepted in Christ. But this does not change the instruction on how a marriage is to be lived... i.e. husband and wife.

When taught, it should be taught in its fullness, that of being full with God's Spirit living in us, resulting in the submission of everyone to each other? Paul didn't single out wives. Nor should we.

Again, can you please show me where the Word of God says a husband should submit to his wife and relinquish authority (spiritual or otherwise) in the house.

When we do, we teach a false message.

The false message seems to come from man not God. It is man who is trying to change Gods intent in His word. Maybe times were different then. Maybe culture was different.. But people were much the same.. There hasn't been much change... People have always tried to change God's word around to suit their own needs.. That is what scripture says in 2nd Timothy.. That is nothing new..

[phoebe]

"Forgive me if I am wrong but this thread is about wives and not husbands. "

Perhaps a review of the OP is called for here:

We have read this verse many times and I think we miss the greater message behind it.

Most have understood it to say that men Lord over women but if  you look closer at the context It then becomes clear that we have not understood what this was saying.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Eph 5:22-33 (KJV)

When we really look into what the teaching is really saying here we find that it is unity. Being one.

It is telling the man the same thing it is telling the woman. Just worded differently but the same aspect. The husband is also to submit to the wife just as the wife is to submit to the husband. In reality the husband should be more committed to the wife for he is to be to her as Christ is to him.

Anyway I do not really know just how to word this thought but maybe you can see the direction this thought is going and fill in the blanks. I do not want to make a really long post trying to express the complete thought so maybe we can pull it out with more post as we see where this heads.

[Mystery Man]

Complex ?

So, would you or wouldn't you die for your wife ?   If you say yes, would you ask her to decide for you first ?

I would definitely die if it meant she might live (which I covered in my "split second decisions" statement in my prior post). Why would I need to ask her to decide? I'm confused by your question.

The Word of God tells the man to love thier wives "as christ" also loved the church, and gave himself for it.  Christ did two things. 1. Loved   2.  Gave himself.

God would not ask a man, who is married,  to do less.   What God asks a woman to do, is to submit.   

God is asking the woman to submit to a godly man , as was Christ, and the body is to submit to the head of the body - Christ.

God does not ask a woman to submit to an ungodly man.  But God does ask a woman who is married to one, to stay faithful to God and His Word. 

Saying a woman should submit, is too blank of a statement.  Just as a man, a woman also is to submit unto God and His Word.  That is the first responsibility.  The only place a godly woman should question her husband, is when he is walking away from the Word.  Otherwise, she is to fully submit unto him .  This is why she needs to be grounded in the Word of God.

If you as a husband is not doing his role, as the head of the wife and the head of the household.  Then you as a husband are not doing the will of God.  You must be willing to take the responsibility that God has given to you as a husband.   And a godly woman should be telling her husband to do the role that God has put him in.

[Hehealedme]

.

[zoonance]

I am not sure why such a passionate discussion on mutual submission has to exist except that it is clear that a woman may not want to submit to a husband and will have to give meaning to a text that is not naturally there.  I can understand that. (Yes, one could just as easily argue that a man does not want to submit to his wife either - and thus the resistance to accepting an alternative, historical, natural and common usage of the biblical text and examples from genesis to revelation)  The analogies offered are actually pretty good - though an analogy didn't hang on the cross.  Analogies do fall short.  (I have never had sex with Jesus, for instance.  Though the analogy I am sure will eventually involve a  "You do every time you have sex with your wife" line of reasoning)  Mutual submission is not a bad, nor sinful, nor particularly inaccurate biblical view of marriage (husband and wife - versus male and female).   But to carry (or worse yet, to force) the marriage analogy et al to every nook and cranny of theology, ecclesiology, cristology, etc will likely lead to a divorce of sorts - unfaithfulness to the words and the intent behind them.  The reason people resist alternative interpretations is not because we are a bunch of insensitive clods carrying a big stick wanting to keep our women "in their place" or barefoot and pregnant.   

If that's what you're hearing, that a " a woman may not want to submit to a husband", then you are not carefully reading. You can claim it as an argument, but it is a false one.

And to make it about sex is quite disturbing.

The discussion is important because we don't practice this biblical form of living.

How about bearing children then?  What are you so angry about?

What does that have to do with anything? Bearing children is not about submission. Not in a healthy relationship, anyway.

I'm not angry. And you're saying I am won't make me angry.

Bearing children was one of Paul's comments that revealed at least his continued recognition of his separation of men and women's "roles"   What all that might mean would likely stimulate another string of Posts.

[zoonance]

I don't see him ever even submitting to anybody but the Father.  Certainly not to the apostles (the closest members in his "congregation")  Nor do I find Paul submitting leadership to ... anybody.

Jesus constantly "submitted" to his disciples...the most notable being when he washed their feet (not to mention going to the cross for them and us).

Paul learned mutual submission while he was a "rank and file" member of the church in Antioch.  However, I would not hold Paul up as a perfect example in every instance--and that probably goes a long way in understanding why God allowed Paul's "thorn in the flesh" to persist, saying, "my grace is sufficient".  (Barnabas and Apollos seemed to be members of the small club who could tell Paul to "take a flying leap" when Paul was notoriously out of line.  Why is it that so many Believers confuse Paul with Jesus?)


V

If you are suggesting that I can't tell the difference between Jesus and Paul, you are quite mistaken.  I have been one of the loudest voices that we are christians, not paulians.    However, Paul did say to imitate him as he imitated Christ.  Course, I am also confident that in his dealing with men and women, this inspired apostle was way off.

[Mac]

Sorry mac but this has hit me like a ton of bricks!...
My husband used to say that I was ''bossy'' and ''nagging''...and I might have been to some degree...

BUT...and I will give you one example of why I may have been bossy or nagging...


My daughter confessed to me one day that she practiced a fellation on her boyfriend's cousin so she wouldn't look like it was the first time that she did it when she would do it with him...

I tried to explain to her that this was absolutely no way for a young girl to behave...we had a long talk about this and she finally admitted that it was in deed wrong of her to have acted this way...Of course, her boyfriend found out about what she had done and he broke up with her a week later...

When I later told my husband about it that day, he thought that it was alright for our daughter (14 years old at the time, now close to 18 years old) to have sex as long as she used condoms. He wanted to tell her this!...my reaction to this was ''WHAT?!!! You are not serious are you?!!!''...but yes, he was...  

Now for the past two years and a half, he is teaching her that it is alright for a man to leave his wife and go live with another woman (she lives with them now)...he is plainly teaching her that the husband has all the rights and the wife has none...he is teaching her that women are just sex objects that need to shut up and do what men want whether it is right or wrong...

Now she has a new boyfriend and does whatever she and he want to do...so she is now unfortunately trapped in a pit that she doesn't want to be aware of yet...and of course, she still won't listen to me...she thinks that she knows it all...


I may have sounded bossy and nagging to him but it had nothing to do with wanting things my way...  
Submitting to my husband was very hard to do considering that we couldn't even get along with the way we were raising our daughter...



ps: Manna to you, Mystery Man!...You have said exactly what was on my mind but couldn't find the right words to say it.....bless you!...

I am sorry you feel like a ton of bricks has hit you. I was not talking about that type of situation. And frankly, I am surprised you would have taken it that way.. But please rest assured, I was in no way talking about things of that nature.

I have lived a life of two different tales, I guess you could say... I was in a marriage that was everything God said it shouldn't be..  Was miserable listening to her arguing and yelling constantly... She'd write bad checks.... I would try to talk to her about it... She would scream, "Get off my back"... I would OFFER to take over the check book to help ease her stress... She would immediately start a fight saying I was trying to "Rule" over her and that she was not my slave... No, believe me, we are talking about two different types of "bossiness".

Now I am married to a wonderful, Godly woman. She makes me a better man.. She leads through her own example she sets forth to our friends as well as family.. However, she leads in a way that she should.. She is a wife... She believes the scriptures about being a submissive wife.. But in kind, she EXPECTS me to love her as Christ loves the Church.. And I do... In that sense, it is a mutual thing...  We love and respect each other... We respect each others roles in the family we have... And I love and cherish her...

I treat her with love, affection, respect and I see my job as the spiritual leader of my family as top priority.. That is the way God intended for me (and all husbands) to do it. That is how He instructed me to be...

[grace]

Now I am married to a wonderful, Godly woman. She makes me a better man.. She leads through her own example she sets forth to our friends as well as family.. However, she leads in a way that she should.. She is a wife... She believes the scriptures about being a submissive wife.. But in kind, she EXPECTS me to love her as Christ loves the Church.. And I do... In that sense, it is a mutual thing...  We love and respect each other... We respect each others roles in the family we have... And I love and cherish her...

I treat her with love, affection, respect and I see my job as the spiritual leader of my family as top priority.. That is the way God intended for me (and all husbands) to do it. That is how He instructed me to be...

The mutual that you mentions is that you are both submissive to God. You are both in the role that God set for us. Your love toward her...her submission toward you...both submitting to God!!

[fanuvmxpx]

God is asking the woman to submit to a godly man , as was Christ, and the body is to submit to the head of the body - Christ.

But is the keyword here "man" or "Godly"? The text reads to me, that woman are to submit to Christ and men are as well. If man & woman are both in submission to Christ, they both have the same leader, and are equal. I don't understand how this could be interpreted any other way.

"Women submit to your husbands...Men honor your wives...as Christ loves the church"

Both are pointed towards Christ. Both are saved, both are equal unto God. If both are equal unto God, both should be equal unto man.

Let me also state...that I despise both male chauvinism & feminism in all forms. Equality should reign, not each side fighting to "separate themselves" from each other. We should be drawn together, equally, with Christ as our Head.

Its very easy to take a single verse "wives submit to your husbands" out of context from Christ's total message.

[grace]

It takes the whole equation for marriage to work. If the husband loves the wife and the wife does not submit...it will not work the way God set it up..and visa-versa.

I believe we are equally important in God's eye's. But He set marriage up this way for our good. For things to run smoothly. Even when things are done according to God's plan...the devil will work on the marriage from the outside if he can not get on the inside(husband/wife). But we are stronger to defeat it if our marriage runs according to God's plan and not ours.

By saying the wife to submit to a loving husband..all agree is a good thing.

[Mac]

Now I am married to a wonderful, Godly woman. She makes me a better man.. She leads through her own example she sets forth to our friends as well as family.. However, she leads in a way that she should.. She is a wife... She believes the scriptures about being a submissive wife.. But in kind, she EXPECTS me to love her as Christ loves the Church.. And I do... In that sense, it is a mutual thing...  We love and respect each other... We respect each others roles in the family we have... And I love and cherish her...

I treat her with love, affection, respect and I see my job as the spiritual leader of my family as top priority.. That is the way God intended for me (and all husbands) to do it. That is how He instructed me to be...

The mutual that you mentions is that you are both submissive to God. You are both in the role that God set for us. Your love toward her...her submission toward you...both submitting to God!!

100% correct.

[Hehealedme]

.

[Mac]

mac.........my husband used to say that I was bossy and nagging...we were married for 18 years and we constantly fought for 18 years...he always said that I wanted my way in all things...the man is not saved, he is not a Goldly man in any way...

You are a Godly man...there is obviously a difference between you and my husband...
Maybe would it have sounded better if I had said that I was in a situation similar to yours?...

Another example...

My husband used to change cars at least once a year. Every time he did this, it costed money, unnecessarily...he was wasting it like it was falling down from trees...
He was never satisfied with the material things that we had, whatever it was...he was never content...
My parents always gave us huge amounts of money as present for Christmas, the amount would increase as years went. He would spend it even before he would get it...he had come to a point where he was expecting it!...like it was a given...he wouldn't have the decency to show up at my parents' house for Christmas or any other family gathering and he wouldn't even phone them to thank them for the present...

Honestly, I could write a book about how bad our marriage was!...

I am sorry that you had to live like that. That is certainly not what the Lord wanted for a marriage..

[Hehealedme]

.

[grace]

When he sent me that demand of divorce almost three years ago, he demanded that I wouldn't cancel any life inssurance that I may have and not change the beneficiaries...and he is one of them, my daughter being the other one!...he also doesn't want me to get half of his military pension which I rightfully deserve since I have been married with him 18 years before he left with his mistress!...I find this outrageous to say the least!...



ps: you could say that I am a little FRUSTRATED about this situation!!!...
And now I am asking.......where is God in all of this?!?!...

God is there....He will take what satan means for evil and it will be good! I have been where you are at. It seems there is no end..stand in faith and God will see you through.

When my husband walked out on me, I just started working. Barely making $80 a week (my busisness you have to build clients). Usually it takes three years...God did it in less than a year! He is a provider, our great physician! He will heal your broken heart.

[Hehealedme]

.

[grace]

You know what he told me the day he left?...he said, ''if you want to be a b**ch, try and get my military pension''...

He used to say to his friends, in front of me, that if he ever divorced, he would never give half of his military pension to his wife...

Follow what God is telling you to do....He will never fail you!

[Hehealedme]

.

[grace]

You know what he told me the day he left?...he said, ''if you want to be a b**ch, try and get my military pension''...

He used to say to his friends, in front of me, that if he ever divorced, he would never give half of his military pension to his wife...

Follow what God is telling you to do....He will never fail you!

Something is telling me to not let my husband get away with all of this lying and manipulation...but how do I know if this is coming from God or not?!??...I Don't Know!!!...

Do you have peace about this decision?

[Mystery Man]

You know what he told me the day he left?...he said, ''if you want to be a b**ch, try and get my military pension''...

He used to say to his friends, in front of me, that if he ever divorced, he would never give half of his military pension to his wife...

You have a situation I am thankful I never had to go through.  I have been married now for 38 years.  My wife and I pray together.  We don't always agree.  But we manage to find our way through our differences.  She still allows me to be the head of the house and our marriage.  

But might I say, that within our marriage we have been totally honest with one another.  And there are times that this honesty becomes a big hurdle.  Our faith is what brings us through the hard times.   One time I lost all my worth value without declaring bankruptcy.  I was pennyless with three small children.  I am the head of the household, and I prayed and believed God to bring us out of this hard time we faced.  Of course , that was 25 years ago.  And God came through, but not without him , I would have become very depressed.  But because of my faith, I kept my head into the Word and the promises of His Word.  God's promises always come true .  All I had to do is stay faithful.  I even had to leave the state I grew up in , in order to get a good job that got us back on our feet.

We stuck it out together as One.  The last thing was even considered , was to blame each other.  We just stood upon the Word.

What I see , from what you are typing is a waring against your former husband.  You feel you deserve something.  Whether or not if that is worthy of saying.  One thing is true.  God will not let you down.  But you should not make your "x" husbands money your supply or want.  It is obvious that he wants to fight you on this.  God is your sufficency, and you need to keep your mind of that.  I am not saying that you shouldn't go after your husband for what is rightly yours.  What I am saying , is not for you to allow it to emotionally consume you.  The more you let it consume you, the more it will tear you apart inside.  

You need to keep the peace of God on the inside.  Knowing the promises of God and keep your faith strong.  Putting on the breastplate and helmet , and the sword of the spirit, and your feet shod with the peace of God.

God Bless

[kensington]

Now I am married to a wonderful, Godly woman. She makes me a better man.. She leads through her own example she sets forth to our friends as well as family.. However, she leads in a way that she should.. She is a wife... She believes the scriptures about being a submissive wife.. But in kind, she EXPECTS me to love her as Christ loves the Church.. And I do... In that sense, it is a mutual thing...  We love and respect each other... We respect each others roles in the family we have... And I love and cherish her...

I treat her with love, affection, respect and I see my job as the spiritual leader of my family as top priority.. That is the way God intended for me (and all husbands) to do it. That is how He instructed me to be...

The mutual that you mentions is that you are both submissive to God. You are both in the role that God set for us. Your love toward her...her submission toward you...both submitting to God!!

100% correct.

I agree....