I Used to be a Pentecostal....BUT, No More

[MPaul]

It is common knowledge that just about all Cessationists have literally witnessed speaking in tongues, with it being nothing more than babbling. Further, they affirm that their family members, friends, and neighbors testify to having heard the same gibberish. And they report that the grandparents of all these witnesses unanimously agree that speaking in tongues is just gobbley-gook.

Some Cessationists actually have had past experiences with Pentecostal churches, and they emphasize how Arminian theology was always forced on all members. They describe how the claims of the Holy Spirit falling on a service actually amounts to nothing more than frenzied emotional hysteria, and while few of the members actually foam at the mouth, not uncommonly, some fall on the floor and start barking like dogs. At this time, members may go into the church parking lot and steal things from the cars, including Bibles.

Therefore, with such a great cloud of witnesses, should not everyone throw off what hinders them spiritually and entangles them in sin? Can anyone doubt that the Bible must be interpreted in accordance with what experience teaches is the truth? Fortunately, the best biblical scholars set out systems of thought for making the Bible understandable on these issues in a manner entirely consistent with reality. Some of their basic teachings include – 1. the book of Acts was never intended to set out doctrine; 2. although II Timothy 3:16 notes all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, this principle is not set out anywhere else in the Bible, and therefore, does not really count. 3. I Corinthains 2:14, on the natural man not being able to receive the things of the Spirit, as they are foolishness to him, must apply to how a person comes to salvation, the apostle Paul's most important doctrine, as set out in the book of Romans. He then just added a defense on his spirituality at 2:15,16, as the concept is important for an apostle, and it has to be placed somewhere. He then just added stuff about avoiding strife and division, as this is good teaching anywhere. 4. in trying to be Christ-like, mature Christians must deny the possibility of knowing the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit as Christ did, and pursue a Godly life relying entirely on natural and worldly ways. All the supernatural stuff in the Bible ceased really quickly, as evidenced by history.

So the real problem with Pentecostals is that the the Bible confuses them so much on what their experiences mean, when in reality, their experiences should be controlling what the Bible means. Ignoring what the Bible truly means can be dangerous, and often leads to demonic possession. Therefore, a great service is performed when a Christian goes to Pentecostal environments to let them know what actually is the truth – including picking out particular Bible verses and explaining their special meanings. But somehow, Pentecostals do not really seem to appreciate this great compassion being poured out on them. In fact, it seems it may have been the origin of the phenomenon known as "holy laughter.

[MPaul]

Vonny,

Your post is just one more example of how any Pentecostal forum on the internet has only one purpose, so that non-Pentecostals can come in to explain to them how their interpretations of the Bible are incorrect.  I could very easily answer you point for point on how you have used your own special interpretations of Scripture to get rid of what you do not like, but it makes no sense – it's like arguing with Catholics on the authority of the Pope, or how the canon of Scripture really is established. The truth is, non-Pentecostals do not want to believe the Holy Spirit can be experienced in anything but a worldly manner, and nothing is going to change their minds, anymore than arguments can be made to convince Catholics the Pope actually is not the Vicar of Christ.

However, from my view point that is a shame, that Cessationists make sure Pentecostals can have no internet environment for fellowship. They cannot have special places because they have be shut up, as a service to Christ, as fighting the good fight against lies and Satanic influence, as part of saving believers from deception. But from the Cessationist viewpoint, indeed, it is a good work, no matter what technique is used, to silence the Pentecostals that the poison can be removed from the body... surely it will have a reward. Except it really has not worked – statistics indicate more people have come into the kingdom under Pentecostal ministries than any other, with numbers too staggering to keep up with in counting. Oh yeah, but I know, the statistics cannot possibly be true, and anyway, these new converts were not even genuine, but people merely deceived by loud music and intense emotion.

[vonny]

It also seems I've misunderstood your position on the issue of 'initial evidence' and tongues, so I'll bow out, as my intention was not to stop pentecostals from having fellowship. Let me tell you now, many pentecostals seem to write the rest of christendom off, genuine born again believers, as 'luked out', not 'Spirit filled' or sometimes, not even saved. I've experienced that first hand (shunning) since I had a change of mind on the issue, and it has ripped my world apart.

I'm sure that there are many pentecostals, on the other hand, who are not like I've experienced since I repudiated the pentecostal doctrine, it's just a shame that I've not met many.

I should never have commented on the thread, so I'll probably remove the post.

[MPaul]

PS -- after I typed this response and clicked for it to post, the thread changed completely, apparently due to deleting other posts. So I don't know what happened.

PSS --I deleted the part of this post that responded to some things Vonny posted on the Pentecostal position but then deleted.

[vonny]

Yeah, I wonder what you did experience. You say you went to a Pentecostal church for years, but then you entirely misrepresent what the Pentecostal position is on Spirit Baptism and the gifts, and you set out traditional Cessationist arguments for response. In my experience that is very typical of people who post against Pentecostalism. (I am now referring to Classical Pentecostalism, or that coming out of the Azusa Stree Revival,best represented today by the Assembly of God Church, but you reference no other).

Huh. I got saved in and through a pentecostal church, which holds to a similar doctrine to the AOG...and that was for 13 years! In theory, they hold that you receive the Holy Spirit at regeneration, but when it came down to it, in practice, the pastor considers my husband and I to be in peril of hell because we no longer believe in a separate baptism of the Spirit which is inevitably tied to speaking in tongues.There is no biblical reason to believe that Paul was making a distinction between receiving the Spirit and Holy Spirit baptism, based on further doctrinal instruction from Galatians 3.

I don't set out to misrepresent, I'm just telling you what I know from experience from the denomination I was part of.To be honest, I thought I was ready to talk to pentecostals again, but I'm getting horrible feelings in my stomach, so I'm not hanging around here.I've been through a traumatic time, and I hope you'll understand that.You seem to be very defensive, which is the usual response from pentecostals.

I don't think I'll ever set foot in a pentecostal environment again. Ever.

[MPaul]

OK Vonny,

Then we know from your posting and experiences what terrible people Pentecostals can be and how I can get defensive.

Thanks for the insights.

[vonny]

You implied that I was stubborn and ignorant like those catholics who will never be persuaded of the truth...it's all in vain, and so on.

I've experienced this kind of attitude before, and it left me cold. I only posted what I thought was a respectful argument based on my experience and also scripture, and why I came to the conclusions I did, and you simply responded with sarcasm and accusation.I even explained I had been traumatised by my experience after repudiating my previous views, and you still accused me of setting out to destroy the possibility of fellowship on this forum for pentecostals.

Just carry on, and forget about me, okay?

[Cobalt1959]

Yeah, I wonder what you did experience. You say you went to a Pentecostal church for years, but then you entirely misrepresent what the Pentecostal position is on Spirit Baptism and the gifts, and you set out traditional Cessationist arguments for response. In my experience that is very typical of people who post against Pentecostalism. (I am now referring to Classical Pentecostalism, or that coming out of the Azusa Stree Revival,best represented today by the Assembly of God Church, but you reference no other).

Huh. I got saved in and through a pentecostal church, which holds to a similar doctrine to the AOG...and that was for 13 years! In theory, they hold that you receive the Holy Spirit at regeneration, but when it came down to it, in practice, the pastor considers my husband and I to be in peril of hell because we no longer believe in a separate baptism of the Spirit which is inevitably tied to speaking in tongues.There is no biblical reason to believe that Paul was making a distinction between receiving the Spirit and Holy Spirit baptism, based on further doctrinal instruction from Galatians 3.

I don't set out to misrepresent, I'm just telling you what I know from experience from the denomination I was part of.To be honest, I thought I was ready to talk to pentecostals again, but I'm getting horrible feelings in my stomach, so I'm not hanging around here.I've been through a traumatic time, and I hope you'll understand that.You seem to be very defensive, which is the usual response from pentecostals.

I don't think I'll ever set foot in a pentecostal environment again. Ever.

Dear Sister, I do not know what church you attended, but I am truly sorry for your experience there.  If they teach what you say they did, it isn't biblical.  I myself am a member of an AoG church which my wife and I have attended for 7 years now.  I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and then as an adult attended a couple of Nazarene churches, but the one here just never clicked with us, so we set out to find a church that was truly our "home."  We did not know it was pentecostal when we first attended, but knew in our hearts it was our church home the very first time we went.  The first time we heard a message in tongues and also heard it interpreted, we were frightened, and had to do a great deal of studying the word to see if this was truly right or not.  We felt in our hearts that it was, and we have not been proven wrong.  Neither one of us were right in our relationship with the Lord at the time and we both ended up re-dedicating our lives to the Lord.  We have never been pressured, or encouraged or shamed into trying to speak in tongues.  Our Pastor does not believe in that.  He does not feel that everyone will speak in tongues and neither do I.  All of us are given different gifts to exercise and we won't all have the gift of tongues.  The Lord has blessed me with the ability, on a couple of occasions to interpret a message, I feel, to cure my doubts as to whether it was actually 'real' or not.  I know that there are many abuses in many pentecostal churches, the over-emphasis on tongues, and their not being administered according to biblical guidelines being one of them, but please don't let that taint your view of those of us who are sincere and who believe in the gifts being administered in an orderly manner according to scripture.  I certainly do not view Baptists or Nazarenes or any other born-again Christian as being somehow 'second-class' because they are not pentecostal, or because they don't speak in tongues.  God does not create cookie-cutter Christians, and we all serve Him in the way He has given us to serve Him.  Your pastor did you and your husband a dis-service, and I hope you will not break fellowship with your pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ because of that!  To sum it up as succinctly as possible, as a pentecostal, I simply believe in being lead by the Holy Spirt, just as all who know Christ as their Savior do, and I believe in the gifts of the Spirit only as a heavenly gift to enable me for works of service.  Period.

[Eagle]

Being raised in a Pentecostal church leaves a strong impression on one. The scriptures say forbide not speaking in tongues.  I know that. I also know act 2 4 . I have been part of many who 'can speak in tongues' but have not one ounce of Christian compassion. Not one ounce of Christian love...
Being bless with a christian familywas/is wonderful the story here is the Grandma that spoke in tongues was unkind and pushy to the point of rudeness, The other Grandma, I never knew if she was a tongue talker, but she was (christian) kind to every one.  

Way too often speaking in tongues is the goal instead of the by product. Tongues is one of the easiest ,'christian' attributes to fake. One can only fake love for a short time.  In act along wiht the  tongues were cloves of fire.  that we couldn't fake.

[Eagle]

It also seems I've misunderstood your position on the issue of 'initial evidence' and tongues, so I'll bow out, as my intention was not to stop pentecostals from having fellowship. Let me tell you now, many pentecostals seem to write the rest of christendom off, genuine born again believers, as 'luked out', not 'Spirit filled' or sometimes, not even saved. I've experienced that first hand (shunning) since I had a change of mind on the issue, and it has ripped my world apart.




I'm sure that there are many pentecostals, on the other hand, who are not like I've experienced since I repudiated the pentecostal doctrine, it's just a shame that I've not met many.

I should never have commented on the thread, so I'll probably remove the post.

You are not alone   AofG for 50+ years seen the "good bad and ulgy"

[Eagle]

Dont remove the post. These boards are for discussion.  I would not go into a Penticostal chat, or 'safe room'  thread and 'question' .  If there is any value in forums at all it should be to make Christians look at them selves.   That old addage if cant stand the heat....

[Eagle]

Very nice post Cobalt. Lots of truth. You are blessed with a good pastor! Praise God

[Macrina]

I was in a Pentecostal church for 3 years during my later High School years.

I believe God put me there, to learn things I can share with others....to warn them of the dangers there.

I saw laying on of hands, to heal people (supposedly).

I heard many people speaking in tongues, (And I thank God, I never did).

I heard prophetic predictions, which never occured.

I heard about the Rapture theory for the first time in that church, and I believed it UNTIL......I read everything that the Bibel say, about Christ's 2nd Coming, again.

Pentecostals tend to rely upon the Holy Spirit(?)....instead of believing what the Bible really has to say.

The Bible verse which really opened my eyes was:

Revelation  16:13   And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 
  16:14   For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 

QUESTION: How do 'frogs catch their prey "

ANSWER: With their tongues !

When I was younger I had attended some Pentecostal churches before an Orthodox church was built here in my area.  Many things puzzled me bout their services. Mainly that they seem so disorderly.
However it did seem to me that they truly sought the mystical aspect of worship, they just didn't have the guidance necessary for it.

It wasn't until I was finally in an Eastern Orthodox church that "all things" seemed to be working "for good" (edification of the body). I had found orderly Christ centered worship, and tongues were just different languages. You can go to any EO church and see what I mean. At my own church we use English, Greek, Russian and French. But because we do so orderly, everyone understands what is being said. Such a thing seems quite natural for a universal church (one of many peoples) to be able to do.

And the EO church also retains that mystical aspect of worship.

[MPaul]

You implied that I was stubborn and ignorant like those catholics who will never be persuaded of the truth...it's all in vain, and so on.

I've experienced this kind of attitude before, and it left me cold. I only posted what I thought was a respectful argument based on my experience and also scripture, and why I came to the conclusions I did, and you simply responded with sarcasm and accusation.I even explained I had been traumatised by my experience after repudiating my previous views, and you still accused me of setting out to destroy the possibility of fellowship on this forum for pentecostals.

Just carry on, and forget about me, okay?

OK, but you forgot to mention the main reason why Pentecostals do not accept proper explanations on how they are so defective -- it's because they have no humility. Or so it is always explained to me, when the Cessationists come to Pentecostal forums to inform them of the truth, and when I just will not agree with the degrading positions set out. So, I added that for you now. OK? 

[MPaul]

Dont remove the post. These boards are for discussion.  I would not go into a Penticostal chat, or 'safe room'  thread and 'question' .  If there is any value in forums at all it should be to make Christians look at them selves.   That old addage if cant stand the heat....

Actually, the post was removed after my responses were read in another thread, and it was realized just how completely mis-stated and indefensible the posted position was on what Pentecostals believe and why they are wrong.

[vonny]

Actually, the post was removed after my responses were read in another thread, and it was realized just how completely mis-stated and indefensible the posted position was on what Pentecostals believe and why they are wrong.

Ick.

I removed it because you were clearly offended, and I felt I had offended. Plus, I didn't really want to go over it all. You never did give me the point by point refutation, because you felt I would be too ignorant and whatnot...and I'm not a cessationist.

[vonny]

I don't know which other thread you're alluding to,either. I didn't read another one.

[MPaul]

Actually, the post was removed after my responses were read in another thread, and it was realized just how completely mis-stated and indefensible the posted position was on what Pentecostals believe and why they are wrong.

Ick.

I removed it because you were clearly offended, and I felt I had offended. Plus, I didn't really want to go over it all. You never did give me the point by point refutation, because you felt I would be too ignorant and whatnot...and I'm not a cessationist.

Ok, now to make this response credible, you should want to delete your posts #37 and #39. In #37 you noted you read my posts on initial evidence in my other thread, which set out the traditional Pentecostal position on Spirit Baptism-- but in a manner completely different from how you represented it in the post you deleted, -- and in #39 you actually quote partially from a post by me, responding to you, wherein I began noting how the points you made were mistaken, which I deleted as a courtesy, due to your having deleted the post I was responding to.

[vonny]

Ok, now to make this response credible, you should want to delete your posts #37 and #39. In #37 you noted you read my posts on initial evidence in my other thread, which set out the traditional Pentecostal position on Spirit Baptism-- but in a manner completely different from how you represented it in the post you deleted, -- and in #39 you actually quote partially from a post by me, responding to you, wherein I began noting how the points you made were mistaken, which I deleted as a courtesy, due to your having deleted the post I was responding to.

Let me be clear; I didn't read any other thread you had posted in other than this one, so I had not read your statements about 'classic' pentecostalism...I'm assuming you're referring to the other thread I have now looked at 'Is it Spirit filled'? The way I read one of your posts in this thread was to be non pentecostal in your view, but I think you were being tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic? I didn't cotton on to that until you responded to my post about my view. Then I went to the link in your profile and discovered in your 'constitution' section that your doctrine is in fact pentecostal.

I did not remove my post over fearing I'd made a fool of myself for misrepresenting your position, because I did not read your actual explanation,which I disagree with, in another thread. I didn't state I had read it either. I have studied initial evidence before and come to different conclusions.

edited: I forgot to say that I simply didn't wish to cause unnecessary offense at first, but when I thought about it I saw that you were a bit bristly with me after I shared my own experiences.

It also seems I've misunderstood your position on the issue of 'initial evidence' and tongues, so I'll bow out, as my intention was not to stop pentecostals from having fellowship. Let me tell you now, many pentecostals seem to write the rest of christendom off, genuine born again believers, as 'luked out', not 'Spirit filled' or sometimes, not even saved. I've experienced that first hand (shunning) since I had a change of mind on the issue, and it has ripped my world apart.

I'm sure that there are many pentecostals, on the other hand, who are not like I've experienced since I repudiated the pentecostal doctrine, it's just a shame that I've not met many.

I should never have commented on the thread, so I'll probably remove the post.

I've quoted my own post again.You were offended, I'd misread your position anyway and I just am too raw still from what happened months ago. I still feel very uneasy around those who claim a spiritual baptism because I've encountered arrogance about it. I have good reason to feel uneasy, given my experience, but I want to be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.

However, I do feel that you've displayed a similar 'brushing off' manner towards me as my previous pastor did. I've been hurt and I shouldn't have brought that here, as it manifested in my post. Your response didn't help to ease my anxiety about pentecostalism.

That is why I said it would be best that I removed my post and didn't carry on.

[vonny]

I think what's happened is a bit of a misunderstanding. You've assumed a couple of things: that I had read your other posts and deliberately misrepresented them (though I actually had only read your post in this thread prior to my first long one), and you assumed I'm a cessationist, lol.

I did a couple of things; posted in a pentecostal forum all my disagreements with pentecostal doctrine, and I brought my baggage from my previous pentecostal church. Both were bad ideas.

Apologies.

[Cobalt1959]

OK, but you forgot to mention the main reason why Pentecostals do not accept proper explanations on how they are so defective -- it's because they have no humility. Or so it is always explained to me, when the Cessationists come to Pentecostal forums to inform them of the truth, and when I just will not agree with the degrading positions set out. So, I added that for you now. OK?  

Dude, you have got a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas.  If you don't lose it, you will walk around lopsided the rest of your life.  Pentecostals get bashed on the forums all the time because we are easy targets for people's ridicule.  So what?  That is a detractor for the person looking for easy marks, not us.  If the trash people spew isn't true why are you so easily offended?  I know it isn't true, and you know it isn't true, all the 'demon' crap, but Pentecostal denom's have just as many fakes and whacks as any other denom's, so a certain amount of criticism for that is not out of order.  We have earned that ourselves for some of the abuses people see with their own eyes.  I see the "doctrine of demons" people for exactly what they are, and in most cases, they are not worth wasting my time with because if they have to put it in those terms to get their point across, they have way more problems than the ones they say we have.  When someone starts telling brothers and sisters in Christ they have a demon or their doctrine comes from the pit of hell, that person has got some major problems.  I don't give their posts any credence, I just shake my head that someone could claim to be a Christian and yet be so messed up and thoroughly confused.  Not to mention half a bubble off center.  Maybe instead of chastising a particular person here, you should grow a thicker skin.  Because your post above is not helping your case.  And it isn't helping ours.  Vonny has apologized like 4 times now and you just keep it going.  Let it go or take it to a PM.

I mean, for real, look at the OP.  It reads like something you would see on a late night infomercial.  Is anyone going to take that seriously?  And the OP hasn't been back since his intitial salvo.  It's a drive-by thread.  That tells one a great deal.

[Cobalt1959]

Pentecostals claim that without evidence of tongues the Holy Spirit is not in you.  The Bible says Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But Pentecostals claimed that you shall know them by a gift. (speaking in tongues)  Sorry pentecostal brothers but when most of you think that you are speaking in tongues you are really not.  Most of it are emotional outbursts.  And Larry the tongues are languages and yes they can be a sign.  But they are not a sign in themselves.  Any one can mimic them. I have seen them do it.  God bless us as we continue to find the truth that is in His word.

A big generalization with no visible means of support.  That is not what the majority of Pentecostal denominations 'claim' so you might want to dip your size 12 brush in a different can of paint.

As for your claims about tongues, I wouldn't know where to start.  I see many people who harbor disdain for anyone or anything labeled 'pentecostal' use the same bogus argument over and over, that tongues are just different languages and it is simply another claim with no visible means of support.  Nothing like dumping everyone in the same tarnished basket and saying if they speak in tongues, they must be faking it.  I could say the same thing about anyone who claims to be a Christian, because there are plenty of fakes.  How about if I made this statement:

"Anyone can mimic Christianity.  I have seen them do it."

Does that then mean that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a fake?  Zero validity.  Some fake it = All fake it is circular logic.

Should I pidgeon-hole you into a certain negative slot because you seem to like to go around criticizing Pentecostals?  Does everyone get to play the blame game?

[Eagle]

1Co 14:38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.


Was Paul a demon when he pinned the Word for God?


Good grief folks what a shame We are brothers we can have different views with out being ugly.

Some folks believe in miracle healing some don't some folks think music in church is not right.  Why not celebrate some of these differences and be thankfull we are not muslims how all have to be a like or die.

We serve the Most High We are the Kings kids. We don't have to look alike or say the exact same thing.

[Eagle]

David and me,

Pentecostals claim that without evidence of tongues the Holy Spirit is not in you.  The Bible says Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The main stream penticostals (Asemblies of God )i grew up with would disagree with you.  Never once did i hear such from Dad , Mom my grandparents or the MOST of the folks in the pew.  Dad being the pastor never taught what you say.

Sure each denom or  has its 'know it alls" and to them

Pro 29:11  A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

[fenton]

Nice Post Cobalt1959

its a pitty we have to be judged because of a few people that flop around and do not really let the spirit lead them through the word of God


Dear Sister, I do not know what church you attended, but I am truly sorry for your experience there.  If they teach what you say they did, it isn't biblical.  I myself am a member of an AoG church which my wife and I have attended for 7 years now.  I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and then as an adult attended a couple of Nazarene churches, but the one here just never clicked with us, so we set out to find a church that was truly our "home."  We did not know it was pentecostal when we first attended, but knew in our hearts it was our church home the very first time we went.  The first time we heard a message in tongues and also heard it interpreted, we were frightened, and had to do a great deal of studying the word to see if this was truly right or not.  We felt in our hearts that it was, and we have not been proven wrong.  Neither one of us were right in our relationship with the Lord at the time and we both ended up re-dedicating our lives to the Lord.  We have never been pressured, or encouraged or shamed into trying to speak in tongues.  Our Pastor does not believe in that.  He does not feel that everyone will speak in tongues and neither do I.  All of us are given different gifts to exercise and we won't all have the gift of tongues.  The Lord has blessed me with the ability, on a couple of occasions to interpret a message, I feel, to cure my doubts as to whether it was actually 'real' or not.  I know that there are many abuses in many pentecostal churches, the over-emphasis on tongues, and their not being administered according to biblical guidelines being one of them, but please don't let that taint your view of those of us who are sincere and who believe in the gifts being administered in an orderly manner according to scripture.  I certainly do not view Baptists or Nazarenes or any other born-again Christian as being somehow 'second-class' because they are not pentecostal, or because they don't speak in tongues.  God does not create cookie-cutter Christians, and we all serve Him in the way He has given us to serve Him.  Your pastor did you and your husband a dis-service, and I hope you will not break fellowship with your pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ because of that!  To sum it up as succinctly as possible, as a pentecostal, I simply believe in being lead by the Holy Spirt, just as all who know Christ as their Savior do, and I believe in the gifts of the Spirit only as a heavenly gift to enable me for works of service.  Period.

[MPaul]

Dude, you have got a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas.  If you don't lose it, you will walk around lopsided the rest of your life.

So would you say Stephen had a chip on his shoulder in Acts chp. 7? He told the people the truth, that they were stiff-necked, uncircumcised in heart and ears, always resisting the Holy Ghost. Do you think God then had him stoned to death because he had a chip on his shoulder?

Christ said we should turn the other cheek.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite theeYe have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away, on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away, (Matthew 5:38-42).

Did he have a chip on his shoulder, when he rebuked an officer for striking him?
And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me," (John 18:19-23).

Did the apostle Paul have a chip on his shoulder?
Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? (Acts 23:4).

Actually, I can go on and on with examples..... Like do you know why Christ was so offended that he lowered himself to call the Pharisees murderers? – note John 7:19;8:44. Maybe, he just said it because it was the truth. Is it a sin to speak the truth? Some Christians think it is, if the truth is not pretty. They watch movies by Cecil B. DeMill – but maybe, they should read the Bible.

[vonny]

Unreal. I explained to you how I did not deliberately misrepresent your views, as explained in an earlier post, and you ignore it completely.

I'm not going to argue my view with yours right now because I said I didn't want to do that any more for the reasons I mentioned, but I am quite bemused by your reluctance to retract your comment that I'd deliberately misrepresented you, even though you also assumed I was a cessationist, mistakenly.As I said, I never did read any of your other posts before I posted in this thread. I discovered your stance from your website ( I always look at the profiles of others in case they do have a website, so as to be able to make sure I understand where they are coming from when they post). We can all get things wrong,right?

[Cobalt1959]

So would you say Stephen had a chip on his shoulder in Acts chp. 7? He told the people the truth, that they were stiff-necked, uncircumcised in heart and ears, always resisting the Holy Ghost. Do you think God then had him stoned to death because he had a chip on his shoulder?

Christ said we should turn the other cheek.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite theeYe have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away, on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away, (Matthew 5:38-42).

Did he have a chip on his shoulder, when he rebuked an officer for striking him?
And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me," (John 18:19-23).

Did the apostle Paul have a chip on his shoulder?
Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? (Acts 23:4).

Actually, I can go on and on with examples..... Like do you know why Christ was so offended that he lowered himself to call the Pharisees murderers? – note John 7:19;8:44. Maybe, he just said it because it was the truth. Is it a sin to speak the truth? Some Christians think it is, if the truth is not pretty. They watch movies by Cecil B. DeMill – but maybe, they should read the Bible.

One can take any scripture out of context and use it to support any kind of behavior they wish.  But using 3 or 4 verses as proof texts for rude behavior hardly justifies the concept.  It is really a stretch to take the above verses and attempt to use them to say you can go around castigating people because you feel picked on.  Especially when you have scripture that plainly opposes your assertion:

Galatians 5:22-26  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.  24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.  25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.  26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Colossians 3:12-14  12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.  13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.  14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

2 Timothy 2:23-25  23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.  24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.  25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

1 Peter 2:17  Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

1 Peter 3:15-16  15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,  16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Scripture that gives one a license to be rude just because we are pentecostal and get made fun of sometimes?  Not so much. 

[MPaul]

Cobalt,

I am sure am glad you did not live during the Reformation. Not because I want to take mass from a priest or have him read the Bible for me in Latin, but so that William Tyndale and Martin Luther would not have to politely laugh in your face when you explained your theory to them  – on why they should have to shut up, instead of being involved in all the vicious debates that were necessary at the time to establish Sola Scriptura and to have a Bible in English. And if you thought your degradation of me was clever and entertaining, in using your image of the chip the size of Texas, you might read some of the debates then for an example of how bad it got – I'm reading on the one between Tyndale and Thomas Moore now.

Speaking for and defending the truth is not disrespectful so much as a necessary part of spiritual warfare. Such warfare does not always go as one envisions.... Tyndale and Luther were outlaws, but the principles they established permitted Protestant societies to establish legal systems where debate was acceptable and people could not be put to death for their beliefs – although those who argue against the guidance of the Holy Spirit very often still would like to do just that, kill people in the name of Christ for their teachings.

True, it is Pentecostal tradition never to answer our critics – but check carefully and you will find that this applies to evangelists and circumstances of evangelism, as the critics are then trying to use debate to destroy evangelistic success. We are not having a revival crusade just now.

[MPaul]

Unreal. I explained to you how I did not deliberately misrepresent your views, as explained in an earlier post, and you ignore it completely.

I'm not going to argue my view with yours right now because I said I didn't want to do that any more for the reasons I mentioned, but I am quite bemused by your reluctance to retract your comment that I'd deliberately misrepresented you, even though you also assumed I was a cessationist, mistakenly.As I said, I never did read any of your other posts before I posted in this thread. I discovered your stance from your website ( I always look at the profiles of others in case they do have a website, so as to be able to make sure I understand where they are coming from when they post). We can all get things wrong,right?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

PS -- I am trying to ignore you somewhat. The post you made on Pentecostal theology and then deleted.... well, it seemed to indicate very much that you have never even been in the parking lot of a Pentecostal church. So... if you don't know what you are talking about, it reduces the value of conversation.

[Cobalt1959]

Cobalt,

I am sure am glad you did not live during the Reformation. Not because I want to take mass from a priest or have him read the Bible for me in Latin, but so that William Tyndale and Martin Luther would not have to politely laugh in your face when you explained your theory to them  – on why they should have to shut up, instead of being involved in all the vicious debates that were necessary at the time to establish Sola Scriptura and to have a Bible in English. And if you thought your degradation of me was clever and entertaining, in using your image of the chip the size of Texas, you might read some of the debates then for an example of how bad it got – I'm reading on the one between Tyndale and Thomas Moore now.

Speaking for and defending the truth is not disrespectful so much as a necessary part of spiritual warfare. Such warfare does not always go as one envisions.... Tyndale and Luther were outlaws, but the principles they established permitted Protestant societies to establish legal systems where debate was acceptable and people could not be put to death for their beliefs – although those who argue against the guidance of the Holy Spirit very often still would like to do just that, kill people in the name of Christ for their teachings.

True, it is Pentecostal tradition never to answer our critics – but check carefully and you will find that this applies to evangelists and circumstances of evangelism, as the critics are then trying to use debate to destroy evangelistic success. We are not having a revival crusade just now.

Is this how you treat people within your own church?  Or only on an internet forum.  I'm not telling you to shut up.  Please illustrate for me exactly where in any of my posts to you where I have told you to shut up.  That is interjecting something into the conversation which has not been said and it's a dishonest tactic.  I'm pointing out that you behavior is poor and your posts are confusing.  I sometimes cannot make out whether you are a Cessasionist or a Pentecostal.  And I am speaking directly to your behavior in this thread.  I have no clue how you conduct yourself in others.  I do know in this particular thread that someone has apologized to you at least four times now and yet you are still badgering her.  If you think that that is acceptable behavior for a Christian, you better do a little more studying.

[vonny]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

PS -- I am trying to ignore you somewhat. The post you made on Pentecostal theology and then deleted.... well, it seemed to indicate very much that you have never even been in the parking lot of a Pentecostal church. So... if you don't know what you are talking about, it reduces the value of conversation.

Well, that was rude, wasn't it? You now accuse me of lying. No point in further discussion when you can treat a fellow believer that way.There was no reason for you to think I was insincere about having been in a Pentecostal church and having spoken on tongues, and all that, nor about why I deleted my post.

I'm deleting the majority of what was this post, as it is clear that I'm not the only one who is seeing MPaul's behaviour as unnecessarily rude and dismissive. Best to leave off now.

[vonny]

I do know in this particular thread that someone has apologized to you at least four times now and yet you are still badgering her.  If you think that that is acceptable behavior for a Christian, you better do a little more studying.

Hi Cobalt,

to be fair, I don't think he was badgering me, but he was being unnecessarily rude and accusative, and remains unrepentantly so, each time I've replied.

[MPaul]

Vonny,

I have never had the experiences you have had on how terrible Pentecostals are. However, I have had another similar type experience. It goes like this –

A person goes to a Pentecostal church and instead of listening to anything anyone is trying to teach, that person just talks about all the screwball theology he/she knows and then makes a lot of scatter-brained and flighty conversation. The congregation tries to deal with the person the best they can, and then they start praying, even fasting, for help from the Holy Spirit on how to deal with the situation. They try to reason with the person, but it all keeps going down a long meandering trail of being informed of how they are actually defective and un-Christ like. Things become tense, and finally the person has to explain to others his/her perceptions on how the people at the church are terrible and abusive.

[vonny]

You're coming across a bit passive aggressive now.

I didn't lump all Pentecostals into a category of being 'terrible' (you put those words into my mouth, so to speak).

I also don't base my disagreement with Pentostalism on personal encounters, I base it on where I think it disagrees with scripture. You, on the other hand, assumed that I'm a cessationist (not so); if I understood you correctly, you also accused me of fabricating having been part of a Pentecostal church, and also misrepresenting your view.

I don't think you're on, and you certainly haven't done anything to dispell any wariness I might have of that category of people called 'Pentecostals' as a result of the arrogance and ill treatment surrounding disagreement with their doctrine that I've experienced. I've never walked into a Pentecostal worship service and insulted or argued with them since I changed my views, and I wouldn't do that... so please don't go and paint this picture of me just because of baggage you've got from your experiences (if I've understood you correctly). I openly admitted that I had brought some hurts to the thread when I posted, although I still stand by what I wrote;that my views are not based on ill treatment, but on study and thought. The hurt only came after I left the previous church, and had no influence over what I think about Pentecostalism as a theology.I deleted the thread because I didn't want to cause discord, which, strangely, you didn't catch onto, and instead it's come to this. I feel very sorry about that, and very sad.

I don't like being accused of disingenuity or dishonesty, as I've really tried to be without guile and admit my mistakes on here.

God knows our hearts, at least.