I want to enjoy church, but...

[fading ambition]

I want to enjoy church, but...

Going to church feels like a chore 90% of the time. I don't want it to feel like a chore. I want to like it, but most of the time I don't. There is that 10% of the time that I really enjoy the sermon and the talk of helping others, but that is usually the only thing I enjoy. Then, even when I do like the talk there is the 60% of the service that is singing and dancing and talking in tongues. I feel like a jerk since I don't enjoy dancing and singing. I could dance and sing if I wanted to, but it would be forced like going to church often is. The majority of the time I go to church it's because I feel like I should out of obligation to my kids.

I also feel like I can see truth that others seem unwilling or unable to see. We live life with a veil over our eyes, so I understand that what seems obvious to others is not obvious to me, and what seems obvious to me is not obvious to others. I kind of feel that I wish I could have the veil cover my eyes better. I have been praying for years for God to show me more truth of any kind, and now that I have it I don't want it.

I don't like it that people who have slightly different doctrinal beliefs are so judged, since I have slightly different doctrinal beliefs. Everybody has slightly different doctrinal beliefs except for those people who say "I don't know what my doctrinal beliefs are, ask the church."

Before I was a Christian my wife (who was a girlfriend at the time) and I had visited a very large church in the area. The pastor and the higher-ups in the church spoke quite a bit about money (which I know is not necessarily a bad thing to talk about.) It was explained that we should pledge more money to the church for the next year than we knew we could possibly give, and God would show us how we can give that amount. Basically, over a course about 20 minutes, we were told to give up every luxury possible. We should give up having a telephone or air-conditioning if it was necessary to comply with our pledge. Now my wife and I didn't agree to this stuff and after church went out to an expensive restaurant. Seated a few tables away ended up being the pastor and the other higher-ups in the church.

A few years later I dropped one of my foster-daughters off at the children's church section of that same church, and I went to the adult section of the church. This time that same pastor was explaining how we can bring the Jews to Christ. He explained that God wants us Christians to be filthy rich, and only when Christians as a whole are completely filthy rich will the Jews look to us and be jealous enough to accept Christ.

When I was new to being a Christian my uncle talked to me. He explained that when Jesus said we should sell everything we have and give to charity that it was really figurative. I found this a very odd subject to talk about with someone new to Christianity. In the back of my mind I wondered if maybe my uncle was trying to justify to himself why he didn't do what Jeses had commanded. Then about a week later another Christian, who did not know my uncle, talked to me. He found out that I was new to Christianity and soon was explaining that I should not give all my money to charity like it seems to say in the New Testament. I found it very strange that Christians seem so concerned with NOT giving to charity to the point that out of the thousands of topics of discussion they would choose that to talk about with someone new to Christianity. I couldn't help but come to the conclusion that they were really justifying it to themselves while giving the illusion that they were trying to convince me (after all, I hadn't even brought up the subject.)

I do not believe that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. I've read the Bible cover-to-cover and it seems clear to me that there is no evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Yet I go to church and I have to hide that belief. The pastor literally calls people who don't believe in the pre-trib rapture idiots. So I'm an idiot for my understanding of the Bible. I don't really want to go to church to learn that I'm an idiot unless I'm shown that I really am an idiot. I do not accept that I'm an idiot simply because the majority of the church believes so and laughs when the pastor calls me an idiot.

I do not like when the pastor gives me the cold shoulder and then greats my wife with a smile since he knows I have differing beliefs than him.

It bothers me when I'm told I should stop providing air-conditioning for my family so that the pastor can afford to buy an in ground swimming pool for his family.

My brother has said things that are the opposite of what I say. He says people complain too much that their church is too big, or too small, or too this, or not enough of that...He has a wife and 4 kids. His wife takes care of the kids while he works for $14 an hour. They can't afford anything, and they still give 10% to the church so that the pastor can live with his wife and no children on $70,000+ a year. I feel like my brother is doing things the right way and being led by a pastor who loves money. I occasionally go to the same church as my brother, but usually out of obligation to my children.

I feel like everyone else is blind. Or maybe it's just myself that's blind. Regardless, I wish I was blind or had sight, or whatever it is, like everyone else. They seem happy giving what they can't afford to a pastor who can afford too much, and judges us.

[johntwayne]

I understand what you mean when you say going to church seems like a chore. The thing that changed that for me was to remember that I go primarily to worship God.

I try to not to judge fellow worshipers because that ruins worship for me. Instead I try to be encouraged by the fact others are willing to join with me in worship, and I hope I encourage them in the same way.

As to the money thing, Jesus expects us to lead a quiet life wherein we provide for our own needs and give to others as we are able. In giving to support the work of the church we must be moved by a willing mind that supports that work. If, in our judgment the church/pastor etc. are not in need of funds, then we keep them and give to the poor as we are able. If the church needs funds, then it is acceptable according to what we have to give. Giving beyond our means is just as bad as not giving.

Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.

So we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well. But just as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also.

I am not speaking this as a command, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity of your love also. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

I give my opinion in this matter, for this is to your advantage, who were the first to begin a year ago not only to do this, but also to desire to do it. But now finish doing it also, so that just as there was the readiness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability. For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality-- at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality; as it is written, "HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK."
(2 Corinthians 8:1-15 NASB)

[Serenity432001]

I certainly understand your feelings and I personally believe the church you are describing is NOT what Jesus had in mind at all.  Church, imo, is a group of people who follow Christ and help others.  Those who love and serve.  Thats probably why where you go is not pleasant because deep in your heart you know that isn't what Christ meant.   I personally believe it is actually Satans greatest tool.  Sad really.

[poptart]

It bothers me when I'm told I should stop providing air-conditioning for my family so that the pastor can afford to buy an in ground swimming pool for his family.

Don't be selfish.

[Elaine]

Yes, poptart, he should stop being selfish!  Afterall, that pastor needs all those luxuries... fading ambition probably doesn't even need electricity - think of the money he'd save if he'd just get a bag of ice every 2 days. Then he could give MORE. Then the pastor could buy even nicer suits...and nicer cars and bigger houses and exercise equipment and a multi-million dollar mega plex church...it's just endless.
Dude, stop being selfish ! 

Glad you're here fading ambition, keep up being honest.

But aren't you kinda indeed an idiot for continuing to go to that church? Was that rude to say?

Your sis,
Elaine

[HRoberson]

Going to that church may well seem to be a chore.

Why do you continue to go?

If you are continuing to go, and yet think everyone else is blind, why do you think so? Humans like to do things in groups, even if the group thing isn't quite right.

[llewksgood]

Yoiks! I've never stuck around in churches like that. I'm not into hyper-faith.

No, you're not an idiot, though I see pretrib as closest to Scripture, but I won't argue about it as I have always called myself a pantrib - whatever God does he will do, and I'll just wait, and see. I don't believe its worth arguing about.

Go out and buy that air conditioning for your family. Just don't forget the poor.

And you don't have to be filthy rich.

Have you talked this over with your family? Maybe they're not comfortable either. It could end up being your solution, but sometimes we find we have to learn to love the unlovely. However I know I'd find it hard if I had no "agreeing " fellowship, at least one that made me fell at home with them.

[fanuvmxpx]

I bet you the Pastor & Elders will have running air conditioning and premium cable at their houses. Just me?

To be serious though, leave the church, that is clearly not what Christ intended. Here is another way to debunk the blind giving myth:

1) You cannot give money you don't have
2) If you give money you don't have, you have to borrow money to make up the difference (whether from credit, selling some other asset of yours, or family/friends)
3) Jesus doesn't want you to be a slave/debtor to any organization, this includes the modern day church. If you do not have it, do not give it. I challenge any Pastor to give me scripture contrary to this principle.
4) If the church wanting money is more important than your grocery bill, time to re-think "giving".

If you truly want to give "what you have" to the church, than write a check out for $0.00. Maybe then, the church will realize that you...as a member of the body...are in need of financial help. And instead of robbing your family blind, they could help you. The modern day church is blind.

[Arkstfan]

The current economic situation is going to be a real challenge to many churches.

I happen to think a church with a multi-million mortgage, a new digital sign on the way, and eight full-time employees, six in minster roles of varying types to serve 400 people has lost its focus when pressuring people to contribute because the budget isn't going to make.

As some of you know, my wife was out-of-work for a year. We had been faithful givers, set it up on bill pay so it hit like clockwork every week. Right after she became unemployed in December of 07 I went to two staff members one a friend who had encouraged us to come, the other the minister over a program we were leaders in. By the end of March 08 we could no longer continue contributing.

We continued to host small group. We continued to feed the members of our group but we were rapidly losing the financial battle and couldn't meet our bills in a timely manner. We talked seriously of going to a nearby church that offered the Angel Food program just to keep food on the table and alleviate some of the burden but pride prevented that.

By October of 07 we got the first letter, leaders are expected to give. I contacted the elder told him we would step aside as leaders because we could not give and explained the situation. No its OK was the answer. Mid-December, my wife finds a job at about 60% of what she had made before and we start the long road climbing back financially. Come mid-January we got another letter demanding a meeting to discuss our lack of giving.

I went. Listened to what was said, gave my side, then at the conclusion I explained how hurt and offended we were that from December to October not one person contacted us to encourage or to check on us until we got dunned like any other person by a creditor. Then after adding another person to the loop, again no one contacted us to offer encouragement or to see how we were doing until we got another creditor letter.

I cannot stop them from doing such things in the name of Jesus, but I can stop them from doing it to me. Venting on the internet has some usefulness but you have to be responsible for your family and confront what is wrong and if Biblical confrontation fails, you have to withdraw.

[fanuvmxpx]

I cannot stop them from doing such things in the name of Jesus, but I can stop them from doing it to me. Venting on the internet has some usefulness but you have to be responsible for your family and confront what is wrong and if Biblical confrontation fails, you have to withdraw.

Indeed. Do not be afraid of the pastoral staff, they are mere men. Confront them with the Word of God, challenge them to provide you with scripture to give money you do not have. Do not allow them to twist scripture to meet their "tithing & gifting" theology.

In the end, if you are shunned (as I have been in the past) know that God will use the situation to strengthen you.

[MegaJedi]

I agree.  It seems that church worships the Almighty Dollar.  You need to find a different church in my opinion.  One that teaches CHRIST above money.  One that can help you and your wife out.

[Arkstfan]

This thread on tithing can be helpful regarding giving.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,32029.0.html

[Bonnie]

I don't enjoy going to a church where I believe in my heart that they are teaching false doctrine.
I would find a new church.

[MegaJedi]

seems many of us are in agreement.

[OkiMar]

He explained that God wants us Christians to be filthy rich, and only when Christians as a whole are completely filthy rich will the Jews look to us and be jealous enough to accept Christ.

Sorry to be blunt, but your preacher is an idiot.

[seekr]

fading ambition, I absolutely loved what you wrote. Read it to my husband and we both saw you as being in a great place. it took many years for us to really get those blinders behind us. We would see what was happening but didn't know what to do about it either. I would never want to go back to wearing the veil over my eyes. It is God who removes that veil.

[Jaime]

Fading Ambition, it appears that either you or I have a really strange church. Either yours is strangely bad or mine is strangely good. I would suggest trying other congregations. There is no reason to be miserable while worshipping God. Good congregations are out there. They are not all the same. Almost anyone would be miserable at the church you described. Nothing is wrong with YOU.

[MegaJedi]

I left the Methodist church when my preacher (though she was female I have seen many great female pastors since so not gender bashing)  Anyway the 2 things she said that made me leave her church for good and CHRISTianity for a long time.(Mind you she is now one of the higher up's in the methodist church) 

1.  JESUS was not the true son of GOD.

2.  JESUS did not die for our sins.

That mingled with the fact she yelled at my dad (who was layleader) for not reading the scripture off the piece of paper she wrote it on but out of the *gasp* Bible itself.

That church lost many members due to her.  Which is ok as it led me on my life long quest's as part of many cults  to be the CHRISTian I am today.  My preacher feels GOD had a purpose for sending me away through all I have been to.  Wicca, Mormon, JW, Catholic, Hells Angels (as a groupie) a local cult in the words that worshiped satan.  Since I have lived those lifestyles I can talk to others and show them that CHRIST is better.

[larry2]

Dear fading ambition, it's good to see the honesty you have as a Christian. I've been through churches that wanted pledges, seed faith that would supposedly come back to me many fold, and just plain out begging. I have learned to quickly close my wallet in those cases and seek a new place to fellowship.

A very dear pastor once said; undoubtedly we need money to operate a church, but learn to go to God for it, and not the people. I presently attend a undenominational  assembly without membership, there are no salaried persons, and we have a church built and paid for, an inside gym with weight room, basketball court, racquet ball courts, steam rooms, very large hot tub with bubbles, etc. We never had one pledge, nor even a hint or solicitation for money. The other day our pastor went to a new gym that was going out of business and attempting to sell some of their equipment. He offered to buy a couple pieces of ladies weight lifting equipment, and it came out after talking to the owners, they just gave him all they had for nothing; worth about $70,000.

Many times fellowship to many is getting together with their own families after service, but I do like to not forsake the assembling of myself with others, especially as we see the time as closer than when we first begun. I personally do not agree with every doctrine believed by some there, but have no problem with them. I love the Lord, and encourage others if in nothing but a hello and a smile.

Your thread has encouraged me to post a pamphlet I wrote some time ago titled "Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul;" very controversial with some that deals with some of these things, and of course Paul's ministry. Don't give up on God leading you to a very special place to worship and praise Him.

God bless you in Jesus' name - larry2

[sopranette]

We left our church at the very beginning of this year.  It's been two months now and not one person there has so much as picked up the phone to call us to ask how we are doing.  In a church of only about two hundred members, no one notice five members, including three small children, hadn't been seen or heard from since who knows when?  We had only been attending for about two 1/2 years, but I was baptized there, I attended every Sunday except two, both times after major surgery ( no phone call on either of those occasions, either), I was a member of the choir, I made it a point to say "hello" to as many people as possible every Sunday.  It's not just us, either.  I noticed they did this with many of their members while I was there, so of whom were quite elderly.  If I wasn't a stronger Christian, and involved in a new church, I'd be tempted to tell all Christians to go suck an egg myself at this point.  Thanks for the vent. 

love,

sopranette

[fading ambition]

I personally believe the church you are describing is NOT what Jesus had in mind at all.

I absolutely agree.

But aren't you kinda indeed an idiot for continuing to go to that church? Was that rude to say?

I'm not offended. Some additional context seems to be necessary now.

I was not describing one church. I was describing bits and pieces of three different churches. My wife and I have gone to almost a dozen churches in the area. Most don't offer children's church nor child care. I have a 12yo daughter who would probably be too bored listening to an adult sermon, and my 3yo son would simply refuse to sit still for an hour straight.

Out of all the churches we visited there was only one where I consistently liked the sermons each week. The problems with that one:
1) Services are typically over 3 hours long.
2) There is no children's church/child care.
3) My wife really didn't like it. Her biggest issue was that one of the male pastors (there were female pastors too) would cry openly. My wife found this uncomfortable to deal with.

Why do you continue to go?

I feel as though I'm depriving my children of a good thing. I like the children's church and don't disagree with any of what is taught (at least that I'm aware of).

If you are continuing to go, and yet think everyone else is blind, why do you think so? Humans like to do things in groups, even if the group thing isn't quite right.

I don't just think everybody else is blind, I know I am too. It's human nature to be blind. There is truth that others see but I'm unable to see. What bothers me is when I notice someone in an influential position using deception to manipulate people. This idea of deception that I'm talking about is quite a broad subject and as such the word deception probably shouldn't be used, but I'm at a loss for words. Here, let me give just two examples. I don't want to write forever, so I'm only giving two for the moment.

1) My wife goes to church without me and talks to a woman. My wife tells the other woman that I'm bothered because the pastor gives me the cold shoulder and greets my wife with a smile. The woman explains that other husbands in the church have expressed the same thing, but it's just the way the pastor is. He's really a good guy, and besides, most of the other church members are quite nice. I think the woman my wife spoke to was generally a bit blind.

2) A pastor makes more money than the average member of the same church. He has a paycheck to defend. The idea of his church doing things like the apostolic church is a threat to his paycheck since the apostolic church pooled their money and distributed somewhat evenly. During a sermon he mentions that "some people think the church should be more like the apostolic church, but would you really want to have been in the apostolic church? They were being tortured and persecuted." Before most people have the chance to think he changes the subject. To most people he seems to have made a point, and any future idea of an apostolic-like church is closer to their mental dumpster. The subject has been changed and their mind wants to move on to what is now being talked about. I then ask myself if I was the only one to catch that. Did anybody else catch on to that deception? Nobody's asking for Romans to come and hurt us. Wanting an apostolic-like church doesn't mean we want persecution. Wanting the church to act a certain way is a completely different idea than wanting the government to act a certain way.

I see pretrib as closest to Scripture, but I won't argue about it...I don't believe its worth arguing about.

It's certainly not worth arguing about. I don't dislike anybody for believing in the pre-trib rapture, and furthermore I don't even disagree with it being taught. I only have two main problems with it (other than that I don't agree):

1) I find it to be a very dangerous doctrine if taught irresponsibly. If we teach that there is no pre-trib rapture, and the pre-trib rapture ends up happening anyway then...no harm done. But if we teach that the pre-trib rapture is true, and the pre-trib rapture doesn't happen, then millions of people will have their faith seriously rocked. And with that many people having such a challenge to their faith there will be many who abandon it.

My solution: A simple disclaimer. The person teaching pre-trib rapture says "I'm convinced that...but I might be wrong."

2) I don't like having to hide my disagreement with the pre-trib rapture theory while a pastor calls people like me "idiots."

Go out and buy that air conditioning for your family.

We have three. Two are side-of-the-road models though.

If I wasn't a stronger Christian, and involved in a new church, I'd be tempted to tell all Christians to go suck an egg myself at this point.  Thanks for the vent. 

I've said many times that I'm thankful for having been so ignorant when I first became a Christian, or else I would have been so put-off by Christians that I would never have become one. Mohandas Gandhi, who had not been allowed into Christian churches because he was poor, said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." (Btw, the movie "Gandhi" is one of the best movies I've ever seen. I highly recommend it, even though it was made in 1982.)

[Elaine]

We left our church at the very beginning of this year.  It's been two months now and not one person there has so much as picked up the phone to call us to ask how we are doing.  In a church of only about two hundred members, no one notice five members, including three small children, hadn't been seen or heard from since who knows when?  We had only been attending for about two 1/2 years, but I was baptized there, I attended every Sunday except two, both times after major surgery ( no phone call on either of those occasions, either), I was a member of the choir, I made it a point to say "hello" to as many people as possible every Sunday.  It's not just us, either.  I noticed they did this with many of their members while I was there, so of whom were quite elderly.  If I wasn't a stronger Christian, and involved in a new church, I'd be tempted to tell all Christians to go suck an egg myself at this point.  Thanks for the vent. 

love,

sopranette

I've heard this exact story before!! Tell me were they Presbytarian? Just curious.

[Elaine]

FA,

Ahh, the children - that sure makes a difference. I have a new friend that said it took her 17 years! to find a church.

:) Elaine

[sopranette]

We left our church at the very beginning of this year.  It's been two months now and not one person there has so much as picked up the phone to call us to ask how we are doing.  In a church of only about two hundred members, no one notice five members, including three small children, hadn't been seen or heard from since who knows when?  We had only been attending for about two 1/2 years, but I was baptized there, I attended every Sunday except two, both times after major surgery ( no phone call on either of those occasions, either), I was a member of the choir, I made it a point to say "hello" to as many people as possible every Sunday.  It's not just us, either.  I noticed they did this with many of their members while I was there, so of whom were quite elderly.  If I wasn't a stronger Christian, and involved in a new church, I'd be tempted to tell all Christians to go suck an egg myself at this point.  Thanks for the vent. 

love,

sopranette

I've heard this exact story before!! Tell me were they Presbytarian? Just curious.

No, Southern Baptists. 

All weeks this week we have been having Missions Conference every night.  I was asked by our Choir director last week to come each night, and so I did.  Just last night he told me in person he was so glad I had made the effort.  I was just thoroughly taken aback!   What a difference such a small thing makes.

love,

sopranette

[seekr]

1) My wife goes to church without me and talks to a woman. My wife tells the other woman that I'm bothered because the pastor gives me the cold shoulder and greets my wife with a smile. The woman explains that other husbands in the church have expressed the same thing, but it's just the way the pastor is. He's really a good guy, and besides, most of the other church members are quite nice. I think the woman my wife spoke to was generally a bit blind.

2) A pastor makes more money than the average member of the same church. He has a paycheck to defend. The idea of his church doing things like the apostolic church is a threat to his paycheck since the apostolic church pooled their money and distributed somewhat evenly. During a sermon he mentions that "some people think the church should be more like the apostolic church, but would you really want to have been in the apostolic church? They were being tortured and persecuted." Before most people have the chance to think he changes the subject. To most people he seems to have made a point, and any future idea of an apostolic-like church is closer to their mental dumpster. The subject has been changed and their mind wants to move on to what is now being talked about. I then ask myself if I was the only one to catch that. Did anybody else catch on to that deception? Nobody's asking for Romans to come and hurt us. Wanting an apostolic-like church doesn't mean we want persecution. Wanting the church to act a certain way is a completely different idea than wanting the government to act a certain way.

Again amazed at how well you see. First I understand the thing about the children being a mom of 6. I am not a church-goer and got kicked out for seeing like you did. What a blessing. I kept trying to squeeze that square block into the round hole and it NEVER fit. And I did get that you were speaking of more than one church.

Point number 1 of yours. That woman just doesn't want to see. It asks too much and yet she knows in her heart about that pastor. Not too far of a stretch scenario---The pastor has an affair with one of the women (maybe more) in the church and everyone is shocked. Seen it happen over and over.

Your number 2 point. Being a church-goer for over 30 years (I'm 58) I have seen tons of that manipulation, although I was like that woman wearing blinders in your first point, while my husband was like you. He saw the fake. it took God opening my eyes and you know it is impossible to go back and be blind. Even with things that took place and lots of pain from it I find it a glorious place to be. I could tell you about the many, many thieves that name themselves pastor. I do not believe they are. A pastor is someone working quietly behind the scenes, helping people and caring for them in many ways without a title. Church is not what the majority of those buildings pretend to be. Church is us working out our faith together with Jesus as the Head of His church. Satan's number 1 deception is how the church is run with a group of people or one man in charge. Pride leads to destruction. It is just us loving each other and sharing what God has shared with us. I don't need an organization for that.

I pray and hope you keep asking

[Charley]

sopranette,
I totally relate.  My family left a church after being very involved for 20 plus years.  We weren't upset, we just needed a youth group.  No one called when we left.  I actually called or wrote several folks, but no response.  This is what I've come to realize.  1)  Just because no one called doesn't mean they didn't care.  Rest assured there are people who do miss you and would probably love to visit...they just don't know how to act.  They're nervous about calling you because they dont' know what to expect.  They're wondering things like, "is she mad?," "Did something bad happen that maybe I really don't want to know about?", etc.  So, it is safer for them to remain uninvolved.  But please believe that there are loving souls at that church who love and miss you.  2)  There is a place/church for you where you will be blessed and in turn will bless.  Don't judge the entire body of Christ by one small place where folks don't know how to do relationships.  My suggestion is to search for a church that focuses on small groups.  In my opinion, if there isn't an opportunity to connect with people in small groups, it doesn't really matter how great the services are.  I hope you will soon find the place where God has blessings and relationships in store for you where you can find redemptive relationships! 

[sopranette]

I appreciate that, Charley.  We didn't leave the other church angry, and I never talked to the other members about things I didn't like about that church.  Having grown up in various churches, I know that is something that not only ruins a church, but makes one look bad as well.  I do discuss problems I have with attending church online sometimes, but have never mention a specific church or pastor by name. But yes, I could see how maybe my former church thinks we left under not-so-ideal circumstances.
Our new place may not be as fancy, our choir may not be as showy, but the people there are so much friendlier.  No, I don't judge all Christians based on the experience I had with just one church.  There are many good Christian folks, and many good churches, in the world today!

love,

sopranette

[Charley]

I'm glad you have a new place with friendly people! That's great news.

[fading ambition]

I kept trying to squeeze that square block into the round hole and it NEVER fit.

A pastor is someone working quietly behind the scenes, helping people and caring for them in many ways without a title...Church is us working out our faith together with Jesus as the Head of His church. Satan's number 1 deception is how the church is run with a group of people or one man in charge. Pride leads to destruction. It is just us loving each other and sharing what God has shared with us. I don't need an organization for that.

I think you're right. I don't know why I didn't see that before. I think this may be half of the missing piece of the puzzle that I couldn't find.

[MPaul]

Hi fading ambition,

I am with the house church movement. We believe that the congregational church is not the true biblical model, but is based on a combination of human tradition and the Bible. We also believe, that although any church can become involved in abuse and errors in how it relates to people, the church that most closely aligns to the biblical model has the best chance of avoiding doing things the wrong way.

In our view, it's a whole different concept of the church, in the sense that it is like returning to how church was originally done. I would like to suggest that you check things out. Here is a link on my web site, http://www.loveofchrist.info/church/noninstitutional.html, "What Is the Non-Institutional Church?," that tries to set out a concise description of who we are, by setting out what is most significant from a broader review of relevant literature.

I am with the house church/whole church part of the movement, and therefore, our church has a constitution. That constitution is on the web for anyone to see, and it notes that only core matters of the statement of faith are necessary for membership, and that a member cannot be pressured on peripheral issues. The constitution serves to protect the members from abuse.

Keep in mind we do not judge anyone in the congregation church, but we believe such a practice is a valid option for a Christian community, and we love our brothers and sisters in the congregational church.

However, another division of the house church movement is the simple church. These people deny that the Bible upholds whole church government. Personally, I think that is ludicrous. However, my experience is, that these people usually have suffered abuse at a congregational church, and they are letting the pain of the former situation affect how they interpret the Bible. So I do not recommend the simple church side of the movement.

For me, going to a congregational church was always a boring and irrelevant experience. So I started studying the Bible more and more on what it said about church to see why it just didn't work. I came to the conclusion the true model was the house church. Now church is wonderful -- relevant and meaningful.

I wish you the best. I will pray for you tomorrow, that the Holy Spirit will give you a witness on what is the truth and what is the best course for you in regard to church. Have faith -- God has a wonderful plan for you to be a part of the Christian community. Look for it, and he will help you find the way.

[MPaul]

Wow, I tried to edit my post, and it was a major problem, as a screen said I was banned unless I had a cookie browser issue. So I guess I did.

At any rate, I wanted to say additionally, that statisticians indicated that the house church is the fasting growing movement in Christianity world wide and will take over the church in the future. George Barna, of Barna Research, a main Christian statistics organization did a study on the house church and then joined the movement. He is one of us now.

[seekr]

fading, at this point as you're seeing clearer, than before. just do not let anyone throw you into confusion. you know to ask God and He will reveal.

[tumza]

Giving is an act of obedience to the word of God and there are blessings attached to that obedience. God loves a cheerful giver. Tithing u r obliged to tithe as a child of God, u r not doing the pastor or God any favour, u tithe not becos u have enough money, it is obedience to the word of God. He says in Malachi bring the whole tithe into the store house... test Me on this... Malachi3:8-11