Quakers and Vietnam

[marc]

Last Wednesday, in the Bible class I teach, a Vietnam vet told a story about being in basic training with a Quaker who had been drafted.  The Quaker refused to even touch a rifle (the officer threw it at him and he let it hit him in the chest), so he was given a bucket of mud and bricks (I think) that he had to carry around at all times, even in the shower.  He was given a constant hard time throughout basic.

Then he was discharged.

I have to admit that I didn't know that Quakers were forced to go through basic training.  Does anyone have more info on this?

[Mere Nick]

In "Band of Brothers" one of the guys thought Capt. Winter was a Quaker for a while.  Thanks for posting one of the many reasons a draft is never a good idea.

[Will Lee]

As a former soldier, I have come to the conclusion that drafts should be used as a last resort, like WWII. Some say that it might be OK to keep a peacetime draft as it might be good for the kids of the nation to learn discipline. But...It is not the Army's job to teach/ raise kids to have values and discipline. That should be done by parents. The Army's job is to defend the country, and it helps if the soldier wants to be there and believes in what they are doing.   

[sopranette]

If w8ing4daybreak was still here, I'm sure she could give you an answer.  I haven't seen her post here in quite a while, though.

love,

sopranette

[marc]

She's changed her username, I believe, but still doesn't post much.

[James Rondon]

Thanks for posting one of the many reasons a draft is never a good idea.

Indeed.

[Arkstfan]

It has been argued that a draftee military with few if any exceptions for induction would make it harder to go to war because the military being sent off to war would be a broader cross-section.

[hogwildark]

I was in the Army and think a draft is a horrible idea. If someone is watching my back i want them to want to be there and be a motivated soldier.

[ex cathedra]

 Couldnt all the quakers and anabaptist's  be put up front. given a weapon and then let them choose if they want to fight or not?

sounds fair to the many who have been saving there buts through the many war's

[marc]

What a horrible attitude. By saying such things you dishonor those who have chosen to serve.

[normfromga]

It has been argued that a draftee military with few if any exceptions for induction would make it harder to go to war because the military being sent off to war would be a broader cross-section.

I think that it that this is a very strong argument, which is why Rumsfeld and the other neocoms fought the idea so strongly during our entanglement in Iraq, even to the point of nearly blaming our loss in Vietnam on draftees, the vast majority of which served nobly.

As to a Quaker being drafted, I would tend to believe his "conversion" may have taken place on the way to his induction; anyone proving a longtime membership in a church with pacifistic tendencies should have had no problem becoming a conscientious objector.

The only Quaker I remember serving with during that era was our Commander-in-Chief, Nixon, who came to office during my term at the Pentagon.

During the LBJ years, a group of Quakers appeared on the Pentagon steps every Wednesday around lunch time, peacefully handing out tracts which condemned our activities in Southeast Asia.  Few accepted the tracts, and most who did, equally respectfully, immediately threw them away on their way into the building.

Immediately after RMN took office, the Quakers found out that they were no longer welcomed, apparently because they were "too noisy

[jainfl]

As a former soldier, I have come to the conclusion that drafts should be used as a last resort, like WWII. Some say that it might be OK to keep a peacetime draft as it might be good for the kids of the nation to learn discipline. But...It is not the Army's job to teach/ raise kids to have values and discipline. That should be done by parents. The Army's job is to defend the country, and it helps if the soldier wants to be there and believes in what they are doing.   

If we had mandatory military service (say for 2 years) for all men between the ages of 18 and 22, would 9-11 have happened?  And if 9-11 had happened despite mandatory military service, would the resulting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have lasted for as long as they have?

[Howdyboyalan]

I think Compulsory national service for 19-25 yr olds, even only for a a summer holiday duration would get britain and america right out of the cesspool of sloth and loose morals we have found ourselves in.

[jainfl]

It has been argued that a draftee military with few if any exceptions for induction would make it harder to go to war because the military being sent off to war would be a broader cross-section.

Would having more classes of society serving in the military actually make it harder to go to war, or would having a larger military because of mandatory service make it harder to have war imposed upon you?

[jainfl]

I was in the Army and think a draft is a horrible idea. If someone is watching my back i want them to want to be there and be a motivated soldier.

Wouldn't knowing that you and everyone else in the outfit are willing to back them up be enough motivation?

[jainfl]

To my knowledge a conscientious objector cannot be legally exempted from military service if the draft is in place.  So merely being a conscientious objector will not keep you from being drafted.  But, conscientious objectors, as Quakers would be, can obtain an exemption from combat duties, but not necessarily from combat assignments.  Ambulance drivers, by necessity, must enter combat zones and they must be trained in how to deal with combat situations so they won't be a liability for the men they are serving with.  If the enemy is at point A and you are at point C you wouldn't want a Quaker standing between you and the enemy at point B if that Quaker is unable or unwilling to use a gun to shoot the enemy or at the very least carry a gun to you if you need one.

[Arkstfan]

I cannot believe that an even larger military would have deterred 9/11. They deliberately elected to not directly engage military targets and were more than willing to pay the price. Remember all those who seized those planes had no qualms about the consequences.

In the movie, Patton says no one won a war dying for his country but that is the central theme of the terrorist/insurgent/patriot/freedom fighter (depending on the case and your side). They see the condition they are in and believe death is better than that life, especially if their death brings the hoped for changes, those that survive will have a better life.

[jainfl]

I cannot believe that an even larger military would have deterred 9/11. They deliberately elected to not directly engage military targets and were more than willing to pay the price. Remember all those who seized those planes had no qualms about the consequences.

Didn't most of the 9-11 thugs come from Saudi Arabia?  If the U.S. had had the firepower and the willpower to dissolve Saudi Arabia in, say, 6 months, would the Saudi Arabian government have done anything to put a stop to the thugs?  The larger military that I envision would not be aimed directly at the terrorists, but rather the countries that aid, abet and shelter them.

[jainfl]

I think Compulsory national service for 19-25 yr olds, even only for a a summer holiday duration would get britain and america right out of the cesspool of sloth and loose morals we have found ourselves in.

I don't remember what it was I was reading, but I once read that one of the federal government's biggest military expenses in the first months after Pearl Harbor was for dental care for the new troops whose teeth had been very neglected during the Great Depression.

As much money as this country spends on schools, food stamps, Medicaid, job training, etcetera for its "under privileged

[Arkstfan]

I cannot believe that an even larger military would have deterred 9/11. They deliberately elected to not directly engage military targets and were more than willing to pay the price. Remember all those who seized those planes had no qualms about the consequences.

Didn’t most of the 9-11 thugs come from Saudi Arabia?  If the U.S. had had the firepower and the willpower to dissolve Saudi Arabia in, say, 6 months, would the Saudi Arabian government have done anything to put a stop to the thugs?  The larger military that I envision would not be aimed directly at the terrorists, but rather the countries that aid, abet and shelter them.

We currently have the power to eliminate the Saudi government. We had that power on 9-11 as well.

[jainfl]

We currently have the power to eliminate the Saudi government. We had that power on 9-11 as well.

Dissolving the government of a country is a far cry from subduing the country as our experience in Iraq and Afghanistan amply shows.

[kiwimac]

And attacking Saudi Arabia where the Muslim Holy cities are would be a really good way to get most of a billion people annoyed with you all.

[walker starr]

I had the experience of two wars , both of which used draftees.  World war II was won using draftees and the Korean War would have - could have been won using drafted men if the politicians had not prevented it.  One thing to take into consideration is the fact that many young men were already conditioned to a form of quasi-discipline through participation in Mr. Roosevelts Civilian Conservation Corps.  Those people that really did not want to be there for reasons of religious conscience were given the opportunity to serve in a non-combatant capacity such as medical corps.  I remember it quite clearly.