Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?

[gospel]

Which proves my point that we all see "commands" differently and pick and choose.

So you're equivocating
a commandment to not bow down  or pray in the name of a dead human being

with

Picking up a serpent

Don't you think that's just a little out of balance?

You want to call it a commandment... fine

But I thing when in doubt one should delineate the difference

in that One has a spiritual consequence ( worshipping, reverencing or praying to an idol or icon )

the other does not. ( if you don't pick up a snake, you'll not suffer for it )

Simple isn't it?

Beyong that its hardly worth the effort to discuss

[Johnb]

It was you not I who responded that we must keep His commandments.  All I did was prove that we use himan logic (which is fallable) to decide which ones we will keep and which ones we will ignore for whatever reason.

The point is that those being accused of worshipping idols are not!  No one is saying we should worship idols.  Simply disputing accusations of idol worship from groups that you and some others obviously do not understand.

Have you ever held hands with others while praying?  That is a method use to focus on prayer.  It is really no different than using an icon. 

[gospel]

It was you not I who responded that we must keep His commandments.  All I did was prove that we use himan logic (which is fallable) to decide which ones we will keep and which ones we will ignore for whatever reason.

I think you're ignoring what I just posted. Not picking up a serpent has no consequences that I know of do you know of any?
On the other hand
Teaching people to bow down to a statue, or praying to another man, dead or alive other than Jesus, as a mediator between God and man is definitely an error which can and does cause people to stumble

The point is that those being accused of worshipping idols are not!

Throughout the bible bowing and worship are synonymous, when you bow to statues you are in effect giving homage and reverence to that image, it is definitely a form of worship!
Also you are speaking for people you do not know, some people do worship those statues and images. As I stated earlier in some nations such as South America people travel miles to bow before a statue, they carry it through their villages and people consider it a very big deal, as if the statue were God Himself in the flesh....do you deny that?

No one is saying we should worship idols.  Simply disputing accusations of idol worship from groups that you and some others obviously do not understand.

You may not be saying it but you are definitely excusing it on one hand while on the other you're saying people don't do it.

I say people certainly do it and it is certainly a stumbling block, not only is it wrong in the OT but
its also the subtle serpent otherwise known as the "spirit of religion" that strikes at the core of the NT and makes the gospel of non effect in the lives of the people for whom Christ gave His life.

John 14:6 / Acts 4:12 / Galatians 1:19 / 1 Cor 3:11

Have you ever held hands with others while praying?  That is a method use to focus on prayer.  It is really no different than using an icon.

C'mon thats silly! You know better than that! Laying on of hands is scripturally sound doctrine from Genesis to Revelation

I won't even begin to list all the scripture that supports it.

Bottom line don't assume that I am anti Catholic or hostile to them in any way. Only Christ knows who is His.
The visible church is not the determining factor of our salvation nor is any single denomination...
But there is a bible and there is the Word and we cannot just simply concoct our own way when we know Jesus is the Way
John 14:6
curiously this is the verse the most tolerant antagonists of Christianity simply cannot tolerate

[Johnb]

Gospel
You are the one being inconsistent.  You say we must obey commands then say not obeying some has no consequence.  That is inconsistent.  I gave a number of commands most do not obey and you tried to single out 1.  Either we must obey commands or not.  No one obeys them all. 
Holding hands in a circle to pray is not the laying on of hands that carried healing in the NT.

Our differences stem from different views of the NT.  I see it as the story of Christ coming to earth to give His life that I might have grace and salvation.  Christ is our ensample.  The NT is not a new rule book to follow but the good news of God.   

[gospel]

In Japanese cultures common people bow down to one another as a sign of respect.

Note: You said to one another, something like the Western handshake. In monarchies everyone bows to the king, the king bows to no one. The bible is about a Kingdom, Jesus Christ is King of kings

The higher your social status or government ranking commands a lower bow. This is what Catholics do when they kneel before status of saints. They are not bowing with the intent to worship.

This is a deeper hole because the bible teaches God is not a respecter of persons. Class-ism in Christianity is a man made, man instituted device.
Jesus gave us a pattern when he said the Son of man came to serve and not be served.
Paul stuck to that pattern even when it almost cost him his life in Acts 14

Like the Jews of old would rush to bow down and beg before the prophets of old to mediate miracles from God to them, the Catholics respectfully bow down to the saints to mediate their personal concerns to Christ.

Yep and when prophets bowed before angels, the angels always made prophets get up

Although I dont agree with the pedistool the saints have been raised upon, the pattern remains.The way people cling to the saints is mirrored by how the Jews clung to the prophets.

That's why there's an OT and a NT. People followed held to a lot of tradition that did not go through the cross...although a lot of people are intent on dragging those traditions along anyway.
My point is those things are the fruit of a spirit of religion. Those things detract from the Gospel of Jesus and make the Word of non effect  

However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do. And he said to them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:6-8
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which you have delivered: and many such like things do you Mark 7:13

Right is right and we shouldn't so easily turn our heads from and excuse what is wrong. Again I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. But when given the opportunity by the Holy Spirit, I will sit down with them bible in hand to show them a more excellent way. And no I do not take every opportunity of my own accord to preach to them in critical judgmental condemnation of their Faith

[gospel]

You are the one being inconsistent.  You say we must obey commands then say not obeying some has no consequence.  That is inconsistent.  I gave a number of commands most do not obey and you tried to single out 1.  Either we must obey commands or not.  No one obeys them all.

If you're going to insist that picking up snakes is a command then we can drop this right here. Your view my view doesn't matter, show me in the bible where there is a consequence of not picking up a snake. It has nothing to do with views and more to do with knowing what the Word says.
Worshipping idols praying to men dead or alive, worshipping angels are conspicuously against  both testaments Old and New. 

Or

are you saying it doesn't matter if I'm a  practicing wiccan, just as long as I believe in Jesus too.... I'm alright with God? 

Is Grace all inclusive? Are there no guidelines?

I believe there are some basics and some things DO matter....sorry you see that as inconsistent

[Nevertheless]

Jax - see reply #41.

[gospel]

Again if anyone gets bored or anything just reply to my post and let me in on the action.lol Im just saying.

Sorry Jax

I believe God does mind if idols of saints are worshipped. The dispute is some posters don't think they are worshipped.

Maybe we should define worship...it can be defined as a pretty broad term

Some people worship money, cars, beauty or a sports team

and if you point it out to them, they'll adamantly deny it.

Their definition of worship is narrow and many do not understand what worship actually entails  

[Hobie]

Throughout the bible bowing and worship are synonymous, when you bow to statues you are in effect giving homage and reverence to that image, it is definitely a form of worship!
Also you are speaking for people you do not know, some people do worship those statues and images. As I stated earlier in some nations such as South America people travel miles to bow before a statue, they carry it through their villages and people consider it a very big deal, as if the statue were God Himself in the flesh....do you deny that?

In Japanese cultures common people bow down to one another as a sign of respect. The higher your social status or government ranking commands a lower bow. This is what Catholics do when they kneel before status of saints. They are not bowing with the intent to worship. Like the Jews of old would rush to bow down and beg before the prophets of old to mediate miracles from God to them, the Catholics respectfully bow down to the saints to mediate their personal concerns to Christ. Although I dont agree with the pedistool the saints have been raised upon, the pattern remains. The way people cling to the saints is mirrored by how the Jews clung to the prophets.

Catholics are not just bowing or showing respect, they are praying to the statues, asking the dead to help them, the prayers to the "Virgin Mary", and all the other "saints", to help those in purgatory, to help them sell their house, protect them, etc..  You will see people kiss the idols of "saints", pray to them, leave notes asking for blessings, kneeling to idols of "saints", giving offering so the idols of "saints"  bless them, burning candles to the "saints", etc... That is not just a wayward bow or courtesy, its much more than that.

[gospel]

They dont believe the saints to be divine or on any level as God. They believe and pray to the saints as mediators to Christ. Thats it point blank.

I know you mean well but you really can't speak for all of them....some do see the saints as divine, they pray to their saint before they pray to Jesus...that's wrong no matter how you slice it

[Johnb]

Jax (you know there used to be a beer by that name)   Good post you nailed it exactly.  We need to be worried about our beliefs and pratices and not trying to tell others their beliefs and intentions of their heart.

Gospel
I really don't think you want to get into a discussion of the inspiration and authority of the scriptures with me.  However, if you do feel free to start another thread. You coulsd start by researching the pen name you use.

[fanuvmxpx]

Well if thats that Im done. If any of my fellow protestants want to debate any other Catholic issues post away or check out my thread The Authority of the Catholic Church. Until then I hope to debate with you guys again God bless.

Church has no authority. All authority belongs to God the Father, Jesus Christ, and God's Spirit.

The pope may as well be my uncle, they have the same amount of righteousness. Humans do not get to vote spirituality into someone, which is exactly what happens every time they smoke that chimney in Rome.

[gospel]

And by what understanding do you know that some, or even one does believe so? Has a Catholic confessed to holding the saints so high as to be divine and worthy of worship that is reserved entirely for God?

Do Christian people openly admit they worship money? No!

But do some of them....yep!

How about cars? Do some of the ...yep again?

Is pornography a form of body worship....yep!

Are some Christians addicted to porn...yep again!

Do some Catholics worship saints.....without a doubt, ask some who have converted. I believe one of the earlier posts, an ex Catholic actually stated that was the case.

So really it's not about Catholic and Protestant, its more about what do people put between themselves and the Lord

[gospel]

I really don't think you want to get into a discussion of the inspiration and authority of the scriptures with me. 

I'm sure I don't...you the man!

However, if you do feel free to start another thread. You coulsd start by researching the pen name you use..

Although that was remotely clever... I've said nothing to merit a rude remark, but according to the Gospel I must forgive you....and I do 

[gospel]

the Sabbath from Saturday from Sunday

Excuse me...Jesus rose the 1st day of the week

[fanuvmxpx]

What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this judge me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.

I would say that you need the Lord of the Universe to remove the burden from your life. You don't have to continue in sin, paying penance, and confessing your sins to a guy sitting in a booth. You can confess them to God Himself if you are ready to bow before Him.

God can free you from sin. Free you from the burden you struggle with. Telling a guy in a box about your sin will not free you.

Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshiping saints is what is right according to God deny it? I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?

I am sure Catholics are intelligent right? The Bible says we are not to worship anything but God. The Bible also says that only God can forgive sin. So why are you asking a man in a booth for forgiveness? Many times, if you want the full truth, you have to find it in the Word of God. We are to study "ourselves" to know the Bible and truth about God.

[gospel]

What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this jugde me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.

Bad analogy....because sexual addiction is clearly wrong.

I do not judge you, in fact admitting a thing and bringing it into the light is the 1st step toward freedom. In the past I too have had struggles in this area. Many men have. Every Mans Battle is a good book to help you out just in case you haven't heard of it yet.

I can say in all honesty porn addiction is a form of worship. Whatever we worship we serve in some way.

Now ....If a person creates a "special" area of their home with candles, statues of saints and other icons they go to pray in the name of those saints believe me they are worshipping. They have already served by creating and maintaining a special place within their home...e.g church is a special place set aside for corporate worship

Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshipping saints is what is right according to God deny it?

Most people will not admit what they "think" is right is wrong...that's why

I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?

They don't know its wrong they been taught tradition custom and religiously to adhere to these things and have a multitude of reasons and people to help them justify it

[Johnb]

Quote Jax
People who seek to grow and develop dont care to admit when their wrong and most believers I know seek just that.

Exactly.  We should always keep our mind open to grow in Christ.  PS Jax beer was a cheap beer made in Jackson brewery in New Orleans.  It is now closed and is the Jackson mall in the French Quarters/

Gospel
I was not aware I made a rude remark.  It was not my intention.  If I said something to offend I am sorry.  I am only using the logic of those who look at the NT as a pattern or rule book and carry it to its logical conclusion.

[gospel]

I was not aware I made a rude remark.  It was not my intention.  If I said something to offend I am sorry.  I am only using the logic of those who look at the NT as a pattern or rule book and carry it to its logical conclusion.

I'm pretty much Pauline in my understanding of grace.....so I am not condemning or saying people are doomed, that's not the discussion. As far as I'm aware does God mind idol worship of saints in the church was the question

the answer is yes

I don't think that merits being told to go and study the gospel.

You're needlessly waving the grace banner to someone who is carrying it

Have a good weekend  

[Johnb]

gospel
That helped me to understand you better.  Thanks.

[Johnb]

Jax
here is a very short version.  The NT repeatedly draws a difference between being under the law and being saved by grace.  It is the simple story of Christ's life, death and Resurrection.  The it tells the story of the first Christians; their struggles and how they handled their problems.  It is a group of letters and gospel stories put together by man.  We don't know if the book we have now contains all that was written or even includes some things that should not be there.  There is nothing in the writtings that indicate they are rules for all people in all situations.  They are just showing us how the early Christians struggled and acted.  Some live in a commune type situation.  Some sold all and lived in common.  It simple is not written as a rule book.  The OT God told folks exactly what to do; for this sin you give a lamb and 2 doves...  If the NT is a rule book the rules are not spelled out and we have to figure them out on our own.  That is not freedom.  That puts us in a worse situation than those under the law.  I could continue but hopefully you get the drift.      

[Johnb]

Where in the letters to the different churches does it say this is the way it must be done?  Do we have all the letters with all the instructions?  The NT simply does not contain a set of laws or rules as the OT did.  They are set apart in the OT here is what you must do when.  There is not even evidence in the NT that all these letters should be put together with the gospel accounts in one book.  This was done by man that fought over which books should and should not be included.  Even today that is an open question.  The catholic bible contains books that protestant bibles do not.  The 1611 KJV contained additional books that were not taken out until fairly recently.  Now how can this be a rule book when we can't even determine what all should and should not be in it??? 

[HRoberson]

I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

Yup.

Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.

The Episcopal Church uses icons, what type/kind as I had not heard that?

I don't know that the Episcopal Church as such does icons. The Episcopal Church by the river here has several icons that they have commissioned on their walls. My favorite one is an iconic face of Jesus with the words "not made with hands." The icons are oh, 2.5 x 2.5 feet square roughly.

[Johnb]

jax
I am sorry but that responce had absolutely nothing to do wth my post.  It was so far off the mark I don't even know how to respond to it.  The OT law is not just the 10 commandments.  
I really think you need to do some study on the OT; how it was viewed and used by the Jews.  Then perhaps an indepth study of the development of scripture to include textural criticism both higher and lower and then we may be able to have a real discussion of the text.

[Johnb]

Where does the NT claim the disputes addressed in the letters are doctrine to be followed by all people for all times?  What are those doctrines?

We don't have the original anything when it comes to the NT.  Just copies of copies of copies that often do not agree.

Where does the NT tell us that it is written to tell us how to apply the OT law to life under the gospel?  Over and over it tells us that it frees us from the law; calls it a burden that neither you or your fathers were able to bear.  The gospel set us free from the burden the law the rule keeping.  We are to follow the ensample of Christ trying to do good to all men, spread the gospel and live a moral life to the best of our ability.  Each time you broke the law there was a sacrifice that had to be made.  We need no more sacrifice Jesus paid it all. 

If the NT is a rule book please point me to the place where the rules are layed out like in the OT.  How are these rules to be discovered?  Is it the CENI method or just what is the theological bases for finding these rules?  Who gets to decide what is a rule or a command that we must follow and which ones we can ignore.

[WendyB]

What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this judge me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.

I would say that you need the Lord of the Universe to remove the burden from your life. You don't have to continue in sin, paying penance, and confessing your sins to a guy sitting in a booth. You can confess them to God Himself if you are ready to bow before Him.

God can free you from sin. Free you from the burden you struggle with. Telling a guy in a box about your sin will not free you.

Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshiping saints is what is right according to God deny it? I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?

I am sure Catholics are intelligent right? The Bible says we are not to worship anything but God. The Bible also says that only God can forgive sin. So why are you asking a man in a booth for forgiveness? Many times, if you want the full truth, you have to find it in the Word of God. We are to study "ourselves" to know the Bible and truth about God.

As the only authorative church ordained by Christ's commandment and no others the Catholic Church has authority to do many things but not whatever it wants. When a catholic sins they sin not only against heaven but against the specific Church they represent. As catholics they belief more than honestly any other denomination of Christianity that they are meant to be held to a higher standard than any other group of humans. So when they go before a the priest for confession they ask forgiveness for not living up to the standard they dedicated themselves to. When the priest says "Youre sins are forgiven" they mean literally that St. Angelica or whatever forgives your offense go forth and represent this again by letting your lighjt for Christ shine through your lifestyle.

So now mere men get to set the standards for salvation and repentance? 
Do you know who your High Priest is?  Who your mediator is?  Not one appointed by man.

[jessbuds]

I am not Catholic.  However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols.  A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons.  It can be something as simple as a burning candle.  These are used to focus prayer and worship.  They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics.  They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus. 

When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ.  We are not worshipping the bread and wine.  Catholics use icons in a similar way.

of course they did worship the images. I was a catholic and believe me they have many gods with them, black white small big old and many other saints they call it almost everyday they have saints and patrons.

you will be confused because their god is different every day. Though i believe there are few in this group who have sincere belief about God the Father, Our Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit but the problem comes when they kneel down infront of those images and recite those long prayers. Most i believe the minds of the people of this group are closed to the understanding of the holy scripture.

[Johnb]

Jax
again you have shown your lack of understanding of both my position and scripture.  The fact that my view of inspitation and authority is different that yours does not mean I reject either scripture or inspiration.

[Johnb]

Quote jax
Then help me to understand. You believe that NT is the inspired authoritative Word of God but it wasn't meant to be a rule book. Then what was it meant for in your opinion?

I have explained my position several times.  Although we have not went into the details of what inspiration of the Bible means.  I don't think I have used difficult or hard to understand language it seems you simply refuse to understand what I have said.  As far as "authoritative" if you are referring to how we do church or a set of doctrines based on the letters written to the churches that must be interprated and some how applied to life today no.  That is not a type of authority claim by scripture on;y by folks interp. scripture.  500 groups look at the same scripture and come up with 500 different rules no that is not clear and authoritative.  God is not the author of confusion.  Why do you think folks in 303 AD felt the need to try to come up with a few basic doctines (not rules but confessions of faith) that at least most could agree on.   

[Johnb]

Here is the NC you are so fond of refering to.  It was an attempt to state what Christians believe and pratice.
Where are all the rules you keep talking about?  They are not here because they is not anything in scripture that could be viewed as "rules" that Christians can agree on.  Only the siple facts of the gospel are included.

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[HRoberson]

Jax
again you have shown your lack of understanding of both my position and scripture.  The fact that my view of inspitation and authority is different that yours does not mean I reject either scripture or inspiration.

Then help me to understand. You believe that NT is the inspired authorative Word of God but it wasnt meant to be a rule book. Then what was it meant for in your opinion?

It's a description of God, and it's a description of what you were made to live as. Scripture is more descriptive than definitive.

[trifecta]

I'd say it's a description of God's relationship with man.  Describing God is not easy or even possible (1 Cor 1:25), but I more or less agree with you HR.

It has theology in it, but it is not a rule book or a book of theology.   It helps to weed out heresy, but is not the sole authority.  The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), not the NT.

[Johnb]

HR and Triefcta  agree with both. simple yet conplex.  Not a rule book.  We be brothers in Christ.

[Johnb]

jax ask
Then where do the rules we live by come from?

Do you mean Christians or society?

[walker starr]

This early in the morning many thoughts flow through my mind.  Thoughts that GOD sends and in no particular order.  First, it appears that Larry has posted a very good valid mesage.  If GOD was angry about the so called "idols" HE could if he chose destroy them.  HE did such things in time gone by and I seriously doubt that GOD has lost any of HIS power, unlike many of us HE is ageless.  It is written ' My father`s house has many mansions , this must mean , it has to mean, that HE has made allowances for the many many forms of worship. GOD seems to be alright with it as long as it is HE that is worshiped. My final thought is that it is also written  "Judge notlest thee be judged".  Now I just said my final thought but these thoughts were not mine.  Thank you JESUS.  We won`t really know the correctness , the validity, of our different positions until we reach heaven and can get the WORD from the real and final authority.  That is the only thing I can say with absolute certainty.  I do lookforward to that day with eagerness.