Is Public School Evil?

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Should there be Public Schools at all?[/quote]
Interesting question from a guy who is a big fan of a school that was created by a federal land grant and supported by the state through taxation, among other revenue streams. (A&M is a public school)

Richard
:D  :D

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (julie danley @ Oct. 14 2002,06:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin,  You need to be careful and think through your thoughts on this a little more.  Play it out to the very end.  If everyone had to pay for education for their children, those most needy families would be trapped in the cycle of poverty.  The only way out would be education and then you would be denying them that avenue out of poverty.  In my own case, I would probably be able to educate my children...maybe homeschool or paying for private education but then I would be limiting my children.  If I had to pay for their education through 12th grade then I might not be able to pay for college and that would stunt their potential.  The offering of education to all benefits you and all of society.  It is not a perfect system but it is better than nothing.  grace, Julie[/quote]
Julie, how would your children be limited by homeschooling or private school?

[patriciaredstone]

My husband and I were sitting around solving the problems of the world when we came up with an idea which I think is relevant to this thread. We are talking about the education of our young within the context of our faith but also within the context of our world. I think the church is in an excellent postition to contribute greatly to decrease the generational schism which, I believe, is at the core of the problem of how to raise children in the world and not of the world.

There is a growing interest world-wide in internships. If every preacher, deacon, sunday school coordinator, elder, church building supervisor were assigned an intern (teenager) for say a six-month period I belive the children of the church would be blessed. Those who use interns would need to learn from professional members who use interns about how to approach interviewing, accepting and assignments of interns. And interns would also need to apply for internship with their chosen church leader or administrator. This would make the church their own and deepen their spritual awareness and community. The only thing I don't like about this idea is that it is a program  and I hate programs! But sometimes it takes people who hate programs to prioritize the good from the not-so-good.

[janine]

Yeah, what Julie said.

I am all for homeschooling.  Especially in a state like Iowa, where I homeschooled my older two kids for a couple-three years.  The school district was super-supportive, providing me with anything I wanted, from lesson plans to textbooks to access to extra-curricular activites and sports.

But, even in a relatively unsupportive state like Louisiana, it can be done and done well by average parents.

But... here's another 30-foot-high sequin-covered purple fur but:  my children have to grow up among/intermarry with others, and I'd like their pool of contemporaries to have a modicum of education.  If the unfortunate ones get their only good examples and positive feedback and love and lunch at school, well, that's sad, but at least they get it there.  Therefore the answer ain't to scrap the whole system indiscriminately.

[winky]

I can see keeping younger children more \"protected from the elements\". I was thinking more of when kids are in middle school high school. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who chose to homeschool very young children and later work them into the public schools. The point about spring seedlings is my point also - kids need to have exposure to the world gradually not be thrust into it at age 18 having never experienced it.

But in some cases and in some schools younger kids will be just fine in public schools. I and the majority of the people I know who attended public school since age 5 (again, with the exception of college) were not warped by it. And, in fact, might could argue that we were strengthened by it in some ways.

Here's an interesting story, for what it's worth, about one of my public school experiences. I was in 3rd grade (I think) when one of the girls in my class at school who knew I went to church said to me \"I don't know why you believe in the Bible. It's not true. No one has ever been able to prove that it is true.\" I tearfully recounted the conversation to my dad when I got home. After talking to me about the many ways we know the Bible to be true, he decided it might be helpful to find me a children's book on the subject (knowing that I loved to read). He looked and looked but couldn't find a single book about that subject for children. So he wrote one! It's out of print now, but it was (a couple years after this original incident) published by Zondervan called \"How Do We Know the Bible is True?\" subtitle \"Reasons a kid can believe it.\" It was even published in several other languagues in Europe. (forgive me for bragging on my dad :)! )

I think there are many things to consider in deciding to homeschool, send kids to private school or send kids to public school. Each community is different, each school is different, and each kid is different. I just don't think we can make a blanket statement that homeschooling is always better and public schooling is always a bad idea.

[Skip]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My first reaction to your post, Skip, was to be extremely negative and lash out at your comments...
--julie danley[/quote]

Before I read past that in your post, I must record my first reaction. So I may post more later, after I read the rest, but I have a feeling about where your post will be heading...

Why would one \"lash out\" at a collection of facts?

I would guess that the facts penetrated the comfort zone, the bubble that makes everyone, myself included, think that \"everything is ok\", or \"everything will be ok\", or, \"things will get / are getting better\", or, \"that won't happen here\".

I hope that everything is ok wherever you might be, and that the situation will get better...

But the facts are marching along in the other direction.
Judges who have interpreted against religion/morality and discipline, powerful teachers unions, beaurocrats that use the schools for their own ends (\"lottery for education\" is election-speak 'round here), are all factors that work against real, positive change.

---

Ok, now I've read the rest of your post.

I can see that you're pretty much forced to defend the government schools. Any other course would be self-condemnation. In your shoes, I'd might do the same thing. But I don't - I'll 'fess up...

Our older two children are the product of government schools. Some of the best schools in the state; nearly brand new facilities, top-notch teachers by all accounts, and certainly (and fortunately) not on the 'bad end' of the statistics that I posted. They graduated! The younger two are still homeschooling. Time may change my views, but if I had it to do over again with the older ones I would not have left the older kids to the government schools. Cutting our income in half and struggling finacially for a decade is peanuts compared to the foundational education of our children.

Oh, the older kids turned out ok, but I see subtle differences in the government schooled versus the homeschooled.
But, as we all know, its the little things that really count.
That foundation, as in the parable, had better be rock-solid, or the storms of life will cave in the house.

Unfortuately I see the influences of the worldview of teachers and peers who were not Christians during those crucial middle- and high-school formative years. When it's right before your eyes - and, like I said, our government schools are top-notch - then would I not be remiss if I failed to sound an alarm?

Is there not enough factual information out there already?
How much, exactly, will it take to admit that the educational system is a massive failure, consigning as many as half of their charges to ignorance (see above articles)?
I couldn't find my copy of the article about the failure of the Florida high schools (I have so many others) - in Florida government schools recently 1/3 dropped out, 1/3 flunked out, and only 1/3 graduated...

But it's each parent's call what to do with the information...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My guess is Skip is approaching the whole idea of education from a Biblical model, like in Deuteronomy 6:7 and 11:19.  Of course those spots focused on the ways of God... but following Him is the paramount tippy-top of what we need to learn and teach, isn't it?[/quote]

Sorry, Skip and Janine, but that won't wash.  Skip, you implied-nearly flatout stated-that public education isn't God's way.  If you have no scriptural evidence to back that up, admit it.

Janine, the 'transportation model' of that same period was hiking through the desert.  You aren't claiming driving a car is not God's way, are you?  

And if Skip is trying to claim that those with kids in public school don't personally provide their children's religious education, then I'm going to have to get really angry.

Those who think public education 'wrong' please answer me this - should the poor simply do with out learning to read?  

Kari.

Skip-I just saw your newest post.  How about if Julie says that, rather than proving public education is a complete failure, your citations prove that

1)A couple of parents in Seattle are nutballs
2)A Palm Beach standardized test has been made difficult enough to insure that it measures the knowledge of even the highest performing students.
3)We're a country that doesn't know much about history (I bet that surprises Booty)
4)According to USA Today, nearly 8% of surveyed schools are still having significant trouble educating their most difficult students.
5)Bill O'Reilly's in love with the sound of his own voice.
6)Los Angeles is still facing severe education problems (along with many other problems).
7)Some doctor claims to have anecdotal evidence that some school administer may have gone too far in pushing Ritalin.  By the way, our district has a strict policy forbidding teachers to even mention Ritalin to parents.

Far from an indictment of the entire concept of public education.

Janine - regarding the governmental supervision of homeschooling families-Is that necessarily a bad thing?  Considering that homeschooling has been used as a means to prevent anyone from discovering that a child is being abused.

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 18 2002,11:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin-

Obviously, you can read.  You can write.  You can spell.  You are able to hold down a job.  Operate a computer.  You can make change.  Figure a tip.  Understand enough history to make informed voting decisions.  You have (presumably) received basic vaccinations and vision and hearing screenings.  

These are the things a public education system is supposed to provide.  The whole point of our system is to offer a basic education to EVERY child - including poor children, disabled children, abused children, the children of unschooled parents, and just plain children.  

Those who advocate discarding public education are apparently willing to leave a large portion of our population illiterate.  Do you actually believe that would be better for the country as a whole?  

Yes, our education system fails many children.  No one can argue that it doesn't.  Yes, private schools or home schools can very often educate individual children better than the public school can.  But private schools and home schools CANNOT educate ALL children better than a public program.  

That's the whole point of federal programs - education, welfare, defense.  That as a community we can provide better for the WHOLE GROUP than we can provide for the WHOLE GROUP as individuals.

Rather than deciding that you don't want to pay to educate the poor (which is exactly what you're saying when you say you don't want to pay to educate other people's children), why not try to improve the system we've got?[/quote]
Did I learn to read because of the public school system?  No.  Did I learn to write because of the public school system?  No.  Did I learn history because of the public school system?  No.  Did I learn to hold down a job because of the public school system?  No.

I was an extremely introverted, but  extremely intelligent child.  When I was thrust into the public school system I basically withdrew.  I would go through the entire day without talking to a soul if I could get by with it, and I would not listen to those other people either.

Most of my education took place because I had loving parents and I was driven to learn naturally.  School was an environment that was a very negative impact on my life.

I missed as much school as I could.  As a matter of fact my senior year I missed 40 days.  (I would go on days that I had tests, because I didn't want to miss those.)  But I still learned, because I wanted to - not because of school.  TO this day my education continues.

When I arrived in college, the environment changed.  And being surrounded by a community of 600 people at a Christian college helped me come out of my shell.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.  Should tax-payers continue to pay for education.  In my opinion no.  That responsibilitiy lies with the families and the individuals.  Then maybe so many people would excel more and wouldn't take it for granted.

Kevin

[Skip]

Kari,

First of all, to clarify -
I would privatize education.
This is what I mean:
First, the law would remain the same - you have to school your child from ages 7 - 16 in Alabama, for instance.
Second, ideally, all taxes pertaining to education would be rescinded. There may need to be some taxation for the assistance of the poor in the education of their children, but when the government handles the money, strings get attached, so I'd avoid passing the money through the hands of the government it at all possible.
Third, as has been the case in everything else in the capitalist system, the free market will fill the vacuum, and the kids will be educated. In a way, its already happening here - Sylvan Learning Centers are snapping up kids that the government schools have left behind, and they're tutoring them. Its weird to see an entire reschooling industry based on the failure of the public schools, but they're a big-time outfit with a lot of advertising dollars and very good at what they do - maybe, seriously - the government should subcontract with them.

I would respectfully disagree with one of your assertions - \"But private schools and home schools CANNOT educate ALL children better than a public program.\"
We simply cannot know that - in fact, the deregulation and privatization of various industries has, by and large, been successful, and certainly not the nightmare that doomsayers predicted.

There's only one catch - this will NEVER happen. There's too much judicial activism, too much money, too much union power, too much political power, and too much public resistance for this to take place in the forseeable future, if ever.

Spurly's tale got me to thinking -
I personally know a man whose son finished 1st grade in the government schools unable to read, and unable even to say the alphabet. After deciding that another year of government schools was out, and private school was unavoidable, his wife suggested homeschool. But he resisted, until he was backed into a corner by the fact that there was really no other do-able option. His wife had their son reading in less than three months of homeschooling. And that's not an isolated tale.

[marc]

An AP article appeared yesterday saying that hearings would begin this week about how to enforce the court ruling 20 years ago that said that our local school system was inadeguate and the state must fund it as well as it did schools in richer (this is West Virginia, I should probably say less poor) areas.  

Twenty Years Ago

In the meantime, my younger sistes have started school, graduated, and discovered they were totally unprepared for college. (You expect us to already know how to do what?  I've never even heard of that.)

A former two-term governor who was in charge of enforcing this (and who is now head of the national board that governs the SAT--ironic since the SAT is not even required in West Virginia) admits that he totally ignored the court ruling when he proposed changes in the education system.  

If anybody out there has any workable solutions we'd be happy to hear them. :(

[Arkstfan]

There are some stunningly fascinating thoughts in this thread.

I have had my children in private and public school. Our closest friends have home schooled and been in public schools as well.

Based on those perspectives and my observations of the world in general I submit the following thoughts of mine own.

The idea of eliminating public schools is just horrible. Simply put it is essential to any economy to develop a workforce and education is essential to all but the most menial jobs. Everyone uses public schools and the concept of tuition funding or private funding only is fantasy. It was a struggle to pay tuition to get through college yet my tuition covered less than 1/3rd of the cost of educating me there.  If it had not been for loans backed by the federal government I wouldn't have been able to afford it all.

Among my best friends in high school were two brothers who came from the poorest family I've known. If not for a gift of a kerosene heater they would have literally frozen to death at times and had going a week without electricity wasn't uncommon for them. The field trips they went on were courtesy of teachers paying their way, but thanks to a free public education, a government funded college education one is now a chemist for a major corporation and the other a doctor. Home schooling wouldn't have been an option either since their father couldn't read and their mother was dead.

I don't know where this idea of God being kept out of the schools comes from. Virtually all of the middle schools and high schools I'm familiar with have Christian clubs that meet on campus, the Meet Me at the Flagpole rallies continue on unabated and I know of several campuses in the area where teachers hold weekly devotionals before school. Any one of those three has the potential for more positive impact than any canned non-offensive prayer that some school board would ever cook up if allowed to.

I am no fan of private schools. It is a constant struggle with our teen group to deal with the private school kids. Our local private schools do a great job of creating a condescending holier than you attitude. The chapel and Bible class requirements hurt our classes as the private school kids spit out the expected canned answers.

As to home schooling, I've seen some dazzling results but I am thankful for the standardized testing requirements because of the small percentage I've seen that were not getting caliber of instruction they should. When I taught elementary level Bible classes the top kids were always home schooled, the bottom were also home schooled with little noticeable skills difference between the private and public kids. Home schooled kids in my experience are a delight to be around because they interact better with adults.

As to going to a publicly funded private system, count in the opposed crowd. Despite my distaste for the four private schools and their products I've dealt with regularly I know that there are excellent private schools out there getting great results. I also know that government money is like crystal meth, try it once and you are addicted and will do anything to keep using it. Getting hooked on tax dollars just opens the door to more interference than I am willing to see. Although I don't like the non-God stance taken in the public schools I don't want to ever see my tax dollars going to the Mormons, Witnesses, SDA, Islamics, or Jewish schools where tax dollars will be used to teach that my belief that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God is false.

[Nevertheless]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am no fan of private schools. It is a constant struggle with our teen group to deal with the private school kids. Our local private schools do a great job of creating a condescending holier than you attitude. The chapel and Bible class requirements hurt our classes as the private school kids spit out the expected canned answers.
[/quote]

Ark, I know you wrote this two months ago, but I just read it and I'd like to respond.

Can I help you to see things from the other perspective?  I was/am one of those private schooled kids.  From third grade through high school I had daily Bible classes and weekly chapels.  I have also been \"blessed\" with the ability to learn and remember easily.  Is it any wonder that I was bored and frustrated with classes at church?

It is no different today.  It is so hard to faithfully attend classes when you know your knowledge of the \"lesson\" is greater than the teacher's.  Add to that a spiritual gift of teaching in a female who relates best to adults.  (I was that way as a kid too.)

So what is the answer?  Do we decide that it's better to keep all of our kids scripturally ignorant so that our church classes are easier to manage?  Maybe we need to change our class curriculum to where \"canned answers\" won't work.  We really need, somehow, to instill a love for God's word in all of our people, so that we all are anxious to learn.

Never

[lucybelle]

Kevin,

I'm single with no kids but believe it is my responsibility to support public school education as a citizen of my city/state/nation.  

In general,

I think the anti-public-school crowd forgets how many teachers and school administrators are Christian.  There are many.  I think there are people all around who just have to look for someone or something to despise whether or not it makes any sense.

There are also parents out there who take no interest in their children's education.  Public school is a necessity for those kids as well as for those whose parents have to work full time, don't have the money to send them to private school, etc.

I think it's good for people to have choices, if possible.

[janine]

I don't know if he'll take on the kids...
but if we abolish abortion, I'll surely zoom into hyperdrive trying to work it out to take on all those kids!

Similar-sounding question, you see...  Who will raise all the kids that will be born after abortions are much, much harder to get?

[julie danley]

Skip, I do have a challenge for you. No, this is not negative.  I just challenge you to look for the positive in your local public school system.  Look for the positive in those children who you know and interact with who are now attending public schools.  I am leaving to go out of town on a church retreat with many of those families who homeschool.  I will also do the same as I have asked of you.   I will look for the positive in those homeschooled and think on what their homeschooling has offered them.  I will get back to you after the weekend and tell you those positive points.  only by grace, Julie

[janine]

\"Brain drain\" and the like.  Not everyone \"gets\" it.

Our state's focus re: stopping it has more to do with taxes/graft inhibiting economic growth, thus inhibiting jobs for graduates to keep them here, than with bad education.

Despite the low education ranking of Louisiana in general, historically, my particular area remains consistently not-too-awful due to the revenues from the oil & seafood industries.  I was part of the \"guinea pig\" initial Gifted & Talented program in the early 70's, which came about through \"oil riches\" being available.

Remains to be seen if the gambling promises re: education get fulfilled... and if the spending occurs, we'll see if throwing money at the problem will help...

[janine]

I wonder if these uncanny unregistered posts that are dogging so many threads today will flea if we ignore them?

[Bon Voyage]

My sister is currently being homeschooled.  I graduated from a public school.  I had a number of teachers who I believe were Christians.  Some public schools can be very good and some can be very bad.  To say all or none is making a value judgement that no one has enough experience to make.

There are problems in public schools.  My problem with this was my school was small and I felt dumbed down and held back.  I was never challenged and didn't learn to study.  

There are problems with homeschooling.  I have seen some sheltered homeschool kids get out to the real world and finally get a chance to rebel and get into some real trouble because they could not deal with the world that had been sheltered from.

[spurly]

Here's a new question to throw into the pot.  Should there be Public Schools at all?  Should all parents have to pay for their students education?  Should I, as a single person, have to pay property tax and sales tax and state tax and federal tax so that parents can send their students to school for free.  

My guess would be probably not.  However I am not going to go stand on the corner and wave banners.

Kevin (Who is not a big fan of any public programs other than National defense and the court system and police)

[janine]

Here's why I think it was put that way:

Perhaps their opportunities would be limited if it came time to learn something beyond Mama's expertise, or when it came time to need more money for higher schooling & Mama had no more money...  Not because home education is somehow inferior.

I don't like to pay taxes for education I'm not using,  either, but it does benefit me & my offspring to have the people around them somewaht educated.  Fewer poverty-related problems if more people learn their way out of poverty.

[julie danley]

Skip, I am asking you to look at the big picture now...not then.  Homeschooling may be the choice for you and your children but it is not the right choice for everyone.  We do pay taxes to support those schools and no, not everyone uses them but it is for the greater good.  Just as we feed the hungry, clothe the naked and shelter the homeless...we educate the children.  I feel responsible for the community...mine and the world's.  If we abolish public education, are you going to take on the education of all those children?  grace, Julie

[winky]

In my mind, this starts to relate to the question of religion in schools. The argument for why we should homeschool could be used as an argument for keeping religious teachings out of the classroom- because parents should be the religious instructors, rather than secular teachers.

I don't think that has to apply to all subjects though. I know of many people who do a great job homeschooling their kids. But if I think that just maybe the school teachers (especially middle/high school) at the nearby public school have expertise and more skill at teaching than I do in say, biology, then I certainly want to send my kids there. And, like Janine, I want other kids to have that education too even if their parents can't provide it personally.  

But when it comes to letting teachers lead prayers or teach Christianity, I have to say that that responsibility belongs to the parents - because as a parent, I want to teach them what I believe is right, not what the school believes is right. What if my student goes to a school where teachers are allowed to lead prayers and teach Christianity, but my child's teacher is a Catholic and teaches the kids to pray to Mary? I would certainly have a problem with that. But I don't have a problem with public schools being the place where people who have much more indepth knowlege of secular subjects can pass that knowledge to my children.

In addition, I haven't heard much indepth discussion about the notion of living \"in the world but not of the world.\" Isn't there some benefit to the character of a child to be aware of and exposed to those who don't have the same values, to strengthen his/her convictions, to be a witness to others and to be prepared for the type of environment he/she will face in the workplace and such as an adult? Does God  call us to live in a bubble, trying to never run into people who are not Christians?

[Skip]

lucybelle,

Quickly...

Did you comprehend what those news articles said?

Are you trying to justify, for example, the fact that half -- yes, HALF - of the Los Angeles school districts' students are failing - with IB and AP programs?!

IMO, I'd give up BOTH the IB and AP programs if they could teach to graduation, say, 95% of the kids.

What is your definition of success?
Opportunities...
or Results?

I'd take results.

[kmv]

Marc, you pose a really interesting question.  Could you tell us more about the situation in your local district-what did the original court order require, how do you distribute education funds now, etc.?

Kari.

[janine]

Next time you're in that mode, try writing 'stream of consciousness' poetry.

Guinea Pigs of the world unite!

[susieface]

I don't know how I have missed this thread, but I just now came across it.  I would like to add my two cents worth.

We are fortunate to have a good public (township schools, not inner city public schools) system here.  We have also had our kids in public and private schools.  I myself went to a private christian school.  In my opinion the only advantage of a private-christian school is the Bible taught daily, chapel and christian teachers.  Aside from that there are many disadvantages as well.  Very political, and a lot of favortism shown, kids are exposed to just as much bad influences. Some kids thrive in a smaller school, some thrive in a larger one(my own included).  
We are very fortunate that there are many christian teachers in the school system our own kids are in.

As far as home-schooling, I would NEVER consider it.  Despite the fact that I am not disciplined enough, every home-schooled child that I know(notice I said of the ones I know.  I am sure there are exceptions.)  the kids are just plain weird.  They only interact with their siblings and adults.  Not one acts like a child.  If we think this is good then why do we have kids if we want them be grownups before they are.  It drives me nuts to be in a group of families at church functions where all the kids are playing together somewhere, but the homeschooled children are always hanging around the adults and in on our conversations.  Every parent of these kids think this is great.  But others do not like it other than myself. They never know how to play.  Some I know have never even HEARD of dodge ball or kick ball.  They are ridiculed by the other children (which is wrong) but to be expected.  I just feel sorry for them.  I can't for the life of me figure out why parents want their kids to be made fun of or to be \"nerdy\".  why do that to them?  To make them smarter?  I am not convinced of that, anyone can learn and go to college. To keep them from negative influences?  I know of quite of few that when they were of legal age have gone crazy with the partying.  I would rather have to deal with this while they are still at home and I have some control over the situation.  some will while growing up, some will when they are grown.  Home schooling doesn't stop this problem.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here, NOT MY INTENTION, but as you can see I am no fan of home schooling.  I would rather go the private school route.

Susie

[Skip]

No problem on this end!

Just posting on the \"topic du-jour\"! And getting a nice tan from the flames shooting out of the monitor!

I'm just relating my own experience and research on the topic. Unfortunately, the government schools have basically dug their on grave, so to speak, so that the media has practically no choice but to rip the schools (and dirty laundry sells).

Like I said, each one can take the information and do whatever you want with it. In my experience, most people get mad, or change the subject, or just ignore it.

I wouldn't even BEGIN to bring up the topic at church! LOL!! I'd get bounced out in a minute. It's worse than politics! Probably because people take it as an attack on their parenting or an attack on their kids, and they see red and its all over...

[Arkstfan]

That's not my experience.

The experience I have had is if you say baptism you hear \"Acts 2:38\" as a quick answer like it is the only text, even instrumental music garners a quick Ephesians 5 answer.

I'll admit to a unique view though because while we have a large number of kids in the local cofC private school they are being taught the old mainstream at school while not at church. Our teens are more fuddy-duddy conservatives about worship than their parents.

Somehow I have visions of parents telling the kids that instruments are OK but if you want to pass Bible you have to answer that they are unauthorized and evil or telling them that no matter what they learned in school today Mr. and Mrs. Smith aren't going to hell because they remarried after \"unscriptural\" divorces.

[winky]

I don't think there's any way you can make a blanket statement that all public schools are evil and be accurate. I'm sure that might apply to some public schools, but certainly not all, and even within each school, it varies from classroom to classroom.

Both of my parents teach in public elementary schools. They keep Christian children's books in their bookshelves and teach creation along with the evolution theory that's in the textbook, emphasizing the word \"theory\". In fact, at the school where my dad teaches, the principal is a strong Christian and she is careful to hire teachers with values, integrity, ethics and as many Christians as she can. She said several parents have commented to her that sending their children to her school is like sending them to a private Christian school without the tuition! Obviously, not all schools are like this. But I'm sure there are others.

I attended public schools all of my life (well, until college), and I don't know that I would have changed that, even if my parents could have afforded to homeschool me or send me to a private school. I was able to find other Christian friends at the public schools, but I was also able to invite my school friends who weren't Christian to church and youth activities. I learned to articulate my faith to those who asked or challenged it. I was involved in extracurricular activities like band, a dance team, the school newspaper, etc., none of which were offered at the nearest private Christian school.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to dismiss all public schools as evil and inappropriate. Maybe instead of condemning them, we should try to get more Christians to be teaching in them and more strong Christian students in them to be witnesses for Christ. I think it's a matter of being \"in the world, not of the world.\" Although I have complete respect for those who choose to send their kids to private school or homeschool, I don't think that is necessarily God's calling for everyone.

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]What's your church leadership say on it?  I mean, as a from-the-pulpit opinion?[/quote]
Jannine,
The APS (Anti-Public-School) group is not getting their beliefs from our church leadership.
The elders in my church are not prone to voicing their opinions on much of anything. [This is an issue for another topic maybe]  They always meet in private (secret) and we are left to determine their position on issues by what they do.  All of our elders have children in Public School.
On the Sunday when all this came to a head, our Pastor said, from the pulpit, that each family must prayerfully consider what is right for their own family.  For some this will be home school, for some private school, and for some Public School.  My Pastor's wife is a teacher in the local public middle school and all three of his children attend public school.

I am not conflicted about what is right for my family.  My daughter attends public school.  The principal of her school is a Christian.  Her 2nd grade, 3rd grade, and now 4th grade teachers are all Christians.  We have had discussions with all three of these teachers about the need for Christians to be involved in the schools.  I know that my daughter is an effective witness for Christ in her school.  She talks to her friends, both believers and non-believers, about the Gospel and the principles of Christian living, she has invited both friends and teachers to attend our church.  She has even been allowed to post fliers advertising community outreach programs at our church.
The daughter of one our elders leads a weekly bible study at the local middle school.  There are several teen-agers who attend our church, without their families, because they were led to Christ by one or more of our teens in the lunch room or locker room.
The militant homeshoolers (not all of the homeschoolers) in our church are deeply involved in the Christian Reconstructionism, Advancing the Kingdom, One-Nation-Under-God movement.  I have really been getting an education lately about some of the scarier side issues in modern evangelical christianity.

My thanks to all of you who have helped me keep a a balanced, biblical perspective on these issues.

Richard

[julie danley]

I didn't mean to say in my post that homeschooling is limiting to everyone...I meant that if public education were not offered than I would have to homeschool or send them to private school which would limit our family's capabilities.  I work and would have to stop doing that in order to homeschool or I would have to work more in order to send my children to private school.  That limits my children.  They would have more time with me and less resources to work with(and believe me, those resources are few enough as it is) or considerably less time with me and a private school education.  I believe I have made the best choice for my children to send them to public school and that is not to say that the best choice for someone else would be to homeschool their children.  Janine, I said exactly what you said in my second post...we all benefit from educating as many as well as we can.  I didn't mean to say that homeschooling is bad or limiting...only that it would limit my children.  grace, Julie

[janine]

Making your child your apprentice, more or less, is the best.  \"When you lie down, when you rise, when you're on the way\" & all that.

And, no matter where your kid picks up his algebra technique or his ability to dissect a crawfish, you will[/b] be homeschooling him, as well!  Just because you are a good parent, you know.

Maybe it's OK to go pick up your Hebrew and religious training with the rabbi at the synagogue... :p

No one says the public school system as we have it now it God-designed or even Founding Fathers-designed.

I just like it being there because I don't want my kids growing up & competing with & marrying into a pool of onlyignorant beasts.  

Bad enough that there is so much failure in the system; what would you have us to do, jerk the admittedly inadequate school system out from under the students who have nothing else, and draw back into feudal fortresses while the disintegration of society runs on unimpeded, rather than at least being held back by a little opportunity?

[janine]

My sister and her husband are usually some sort of officers in the statewide Christian homeschooling association they belong to.  Their organization sees itself as a support for homeschoolers, as ambassadors for the public, and especially as suppliers of information about homeschooling, the law, etc., for parents and educators.

For example, if parents are considering homeschooling & call the school board office, they are refered to a staff of truant- officer types, people who see homeschooling as warped and something you would be an idiot, and likely a lawbreaker, to do.

These people try to dissuade the parent, but if they can't, they tell them they need to get permission from the school system, and sign up under some sort of home education deal, where the district keeps tabs on you and wants home visits as if you were a questioinable parent.

All the state requires is that you send a letter identifying your home as, basically, a private school:
\"To Whom It May Concern, I am the administrator of Slugabed Private School, we have two students enrolled for the 2002-03 school year.\"

That's it.  This letter is sent to the state capitol, not to the individual school district, and it's not asking for any sort of permission, it's telling them what you plan to do.  You give no names, Social Secutity numbers, ages, grades, curriculi... nothing.

But, the public isn't told that, because the local-level powers-that-be want to keep a lid on those nasty pesky rebellious homeschoolers.

One school official, a Native American himself, wrote a letter-to-the-editor recently in response to a positive series of articles about homeschooling.  He identified homeschoolers as the same sorts of criminals as truants and child abusers and so on.  He labeled anyone wishing to homeschool, especially in the Indian community, as someone sneaking around illegally keeping their kids out of school.

I was very wise, I did not fire off to the editor the immediate sharp response I had to that letter.

Now that my head is cooler, I may write to the school board, to that man's actual superior(s), and to the state department of education.  Should he have an attitude of disparagement and disgust for the ways of whole segments of the public, the students, he is supposed to serve?

Pardon my rambling... that's what's up with me lately, re: homeschooling.

[lucybelle]

Skip,

I don't have trouble comprehending much of anything that makes sense, but thanks for asking.

[julie danley]

Skip, I would say that lucybelle and myself are not the ones sounding angry and defensive.  I feel great about my choices with my children.  They are wonderful, warm, well-rounded people who know their Savior and see the need to be the light in the world.  I am sorry that you feel your two older children were warped by the public school system but I still believe that exposure is healthy.  Christ wants us in the world.  If we holed up like monks... Christ's light wouldn't be spread.  That is why I choose to work in the environment that I do.  It is difficult and I see the worst of the worst and yet I know that these people need to Jesus in someone.  I could choose to work in a safe place but I think Jesus calls us to a spirit of boldness.  Trust me Skip, when I say that I don't think homeschooling is bad...1/2 of our church homeschools.  My children play and interact with those kids almost daily because our church family is our family.  As a church, we don't push our thoughts on schooling on each other and the homeschoolers look to my husband for advice with the education of their children.  We work together to make it good for all of our children and support each other in the choices we make with our children.  Our children have many parents and many grandparents.  It is good.  grace, Julie