Hurry Hurry get your tickets out of Pergatory while there're hot

[wayne]

Thus, even though an individual is in a state of grace, if he dies without having served any remaining temporal punishments, he is not yet qualified to enter Heaven. Therefore, these individuals "enter

[wayne]

heres a beauty. this is a link to a get out of pergatory ticket .the card has a picture of the golden cup mentioned in revelations, full of abominations and the blood of the saints.  http://www.catholicdirect.com/chalice-and-scroll-mass-cards-for-deceased-p723.html      if you wonder why i use the terms satan, devil and catholic church synonomousy, its cause satan is the founder and guiding light of the catholic church

[desertknight]

For those that may want the "real" and correct information on Purgatory and indulgences.  Wayne's post is correct as far as what he posted from catholic websites, but there is some additional information that is important to understand.

The theological concept of a "Purgatory" is, and has been throughout Christian history, accepted by the vast majority of Christians.  It comes from both the Jewish tradition of the Old Covenant, where the "Kaddish" is offered to literally ask for the purification of the souls of the departed.   In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord's battles. Judah and his men "turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out" (2 Macc. 12:42).  Eastern Orthodox use the term "Theosis".  Protestants use the term "Glorification".  Heck, even Wiki states that "glorification" is, "...the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven.".  I have yet to find a Protestant who can explain how "glorification" is substantially different from the Catholic teaching of "purgatory".

As far as "Indulgences" go, here is an authoritative definition.  "If I am playing baseball in my backyard and hit a ball through your window, you may forgive me, but the window still needs to be repaired.  We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin, as stated in Isaiah 13:11 or Eccl. 12:14, for example.  Scripture tells us God gave the authority to forgive sins "to men" (2 Cor. 2:10) and to Christ's ministers in particular. Jesus told them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).  The Church also received this power through our Saviour's giving it the power to "bind and loose".  "Indulgences" is the theological terminology of how this is done.  Indulgences deal with temporal punishment only, not eternal punishment and one must be in a state of grace for an indulgence to be effective.  Now, Holy Scripture is crystal clear that Christ very clearly gave this power to His visible Church on earth.  Why do you Protestants not believe Him?   That there are some examples, from now 500+ years ago, that unscrupulous people may have "sold" indulgences, is true.  That it has occurred since then is nonsense.  The "Mass" cards that wayne posted, have nothing to do with indulgences as far as I have seen from them, but are simply the common practice of saying Mass for those who are departed as part of their funeral, as in no case, can we be certain of the state of one's soul at the moment of death.  The card is just a card.  No different then a sympathy card or announcement of a funeral.  As to the rest of Wayne's posts on this, it is the worst kind of slander from one Christian brother to another.  I will again post...

James 4:11-12  "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"


 

[wayne]

friend desert, why is it that you go up against me? arent there any more defenders of catholic faith around? you know i dont want to ruffle you. hey, ive been meaning to refute one of your statements. you said that sinners crept into the catholic church and caused the trouble and corruption. i want to remind you that all men are sinners. so you have to find another angle as to the corrupt ways of vatican past and present. saying sinners were responsible is too vauge. also, the mass cards for the dead, are useless. they cost, but they are useless. the bible says; it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. step back and take a look at all the verbal twisting and turning you have to do to justify pergatory. its simply anti scriptural. i went to a catholic site where they sell these cards. i told them i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos but that we should talk on the phone for more info.i have the email. ill post it in a while. come on desert buddy, denying it wont make it go away. the catholics are circleing the wagons trying to do damage control. denying the activities of the church. just like ploiticians. one gets caugt doing something, that they all are doing, and the rest say; oh what a bad person. he is a renigade. say, why dont you just get out of that religion and you wont have to bend over backwards explaining away the vile and corrupt practices.

[walker starr]

       i don't need a ticket out because I wasn't planning to go there.  But,thanks just the same.
                                                                                                                                                    Walker

[desertknight]

Your a liar wayne.  I am not "up against you".  I am up against those who lie about Christ's Holy Church by using lies, which are from the Prince of Lies, the devil himself.  You said that I claimed that sinners, "crept into the Catholic Church".  I never said any such thing.  Please post the direct quote where I said that or admit that you are a liar.  I do not say this easily or to "slander" you, but because I know it to be a fact.  I said specifically, " It only has to be understood that every Christian member of it is a sinner, from Popes to parishioners and that it will never be perfect until the last days, but it has always been faithful to His Word."  Why do you feel you have to lie to make your point?  

i went to a catholic site where they sell these cards. i told them i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos but that we should talk on the phone for more info.i have the email.

Another Lie!!! I will prove it publicly to all who read this.  Please post your link to said site wayne and I will personally call the Diocese where they are located and inform the Bishop that there is some shop that is offering such "services".  I'm sure that the Diocese will be quite interested in informing their parishes and contacting their attorneys to proceed with legal action.

Now I want everyone here to read this challenge to wayne.  I want everyone here to read exactly what he posts in response.  I want everyone here to know that the one thing he is never going to post, is a link to a website, or a phone number, or a contact info. to the Catholic site that he claims is providing an indulgence through a "card", which is doctrinally impossible anyway, that I can use to contact and question them or provide that information to the Diocese and Bishop that they are located in.  So what's it going to be wayne?  Put up, or admit you are lying and shut up!  I'm waiting to make my calls now wayne.


We are judged but once.  All in purgatory go directly to heaven and nowhere else.  It is the point of purification, exactly as just about every denomination of Protestants believe in.  

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Protestants use the term "Glorification".  Heck, even Wiki states that "glorification" is, "...the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven.".  I have yet to find a Protestant who can explain how "glorification" is substantially different from the Catholic teaching of "purgatory".

Glorify means "to esteem or hold in high regard" or "to express admiration" or "to praise."

Glorification as a purification event is a decidedly Lutheran/Anglican doctrine that's basically just a lift of Catholic purgation.

It finds its way into some creeds here and there, but on the whole, the average Protestant would assume you were talking about praising God if you mentioned "glorification" to them.

In 3 decades and half a dozen different groups of protestant churches, (plus seminars, workshops, and televangelism) I've yet to hear a sermon on glorification in the sense you're talking about.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the actual beliefs of Protestant churches.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

i went to a catholic site where they sell these cards. i told them i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos but that we should talk on the phone for more info.i have the email.

Another Lie!!! I will prove it publicly to all who read this.  Please post your link to said site wayne and I will personally call the Diocese where they are located and inform the Bishop that there is some shop that is offering such "services".  I'm sure that the Diocese will be quite interested in informing their parishes and contacting their attorneys to proceed with legal action.

Now I want everyone here to read this challenge to wayne.  I want everyone here to read exactly what he posts in response.  I want everyone here to know that the one thing he is never going to post, is a link to a website, or a phone number, or a contact info. to the Catholic site that he claims is providing an indulgence through a "card", which is doctrinally impossible anyway, that I can use to contact and question them or provide that information to the Diocese and Bishop that they are located in.  So what's it going to be wayne?  Put up, or admit you are lying and shut up!  I'm waiting to make my calls now wayne.


We are judged but once.  All in purgatory go directly to heaven and nowhere else.  It is the point of purification, exactly as just about every denomination of Protestants believe in.

He already posted it in his second post, I believe:

heres a beauty. this is a link to a get out of pergatory ticket .the card has a picture of the golden cup mentioned in revelations, full of abominations and the blood of the saints.  http://www.catholicdirect.com/chalice-and-scroll-mass-cards-for-deceased-p723.html      if you wonder why i use the terms satan, devil and catholic church synonomousy, its cause satan is the founder and guiding light of the catholic church

[desertknight]

I don't know that that is the site Wycliff.  I would highly doubt it as the cards that are displayed in that link are simple "intention" cards that one may give in order to have a loved one remembered at Mass.  What he is stating about them bears no resemblance to the truth and as he has told lies before and from the knowledge I have as a Catholic all of my adult life, I have more than enough reason to doubt his word on the subject.  I will not back off of this!  He made his claim, now he can put up or shut up.  All he has to do is give me the information and I will personally deal with it.  Now why do I think an excuse of why he can't is forthcoming?  Hmmmm....

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Allow me to help you read his previous post:

heres a beauty. this is a link to a get out of pergatory ticket . the card has a picture of the golden cup mentioned in revelations, full of abominations and the blood of the saints.  http://www.catholicdirect.com/chalice-and-scroll-mass-cards-for-deceased-p723.html      if you wonder why i use the terms satan, devil and catholic church synonomousy, its cause satan is the founder and guiding light of the catholic church

[desertknight]

Oh, then in that case than we know it is a complete and total lie.  Those cards are just "intention" cards.  For example, they are for the "intention" of remembering those who are ill at Mass.  "Mass" cards are just that.  They are for those who cannot attend that particular Mass but who want a loved one remembered then.  Funny we don't hear from wayne himself on this, isn't it?.  wayne, is this the company that you said you spoke to on the phone?  

i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos

If so, let me know and I will call them and call the Diocese where they are located.  I patiently await...

[wayne]

im in the middle of pnemonia. i dont have the strenght think straight. if im getting this correct, desert, do you want me to find catholic site that admit they are selling them? that other site you go to, defenders of the godless cathlic faith, thats how those people in there act. only use another hypocryitical lie thru the teeth catholic site for info about catholic corrupt pratices. desert is rite, the link wasnt the one to the indulgences -R - us site.its historical that the church sold indulgences. that makes them guilty as charged. desert, youre not saying thats not true, are you?. one of the tenents of the church is that it never errs and that it doesnt change. isnt that correct bro desert? all im trying to do is point out that this church is not the church christ started. in the light of its history, its laughable to say it is.

[wayne]

brother wycliff, you arent far off. the site i asked for the indulgence was just around the corner from that one. theres no difference between the two. i will post the letter i got from them but i dont think i will give their name. they were nice enough to contact me back, so i dont want to sick desert on them.

[desertknight]

Now I want everyone here to read this challenge to wayne.  I want everyone here to read exactly what he posts in response.  I want everyone here to know that the one thing he is never going to post, is a link to a website, or a phone number, or a contact info. to the Catholic site that he claims is providing an indulgence through a "card", which is doctrinally impossible anyway, that I can use to contact and question them or provide that information to the Diocese and Bishop that they are located in.  So what's it going to be wayne?  Put up, or admit you are lying and shut up!

...as I thought...

[wayne]

Thank you for the email.  My deepest condolences on the death of your loved one.  I understand, fully, what you mean and appreciate you thinking of us at the Society %%%%%%%.  I have many suggestions for you and your family members.  We offer Perpetual Mass Enrollments for a donation of $25.00.  The deceased will be remembered at Daily Mass by Carmelites all over the world.  We also have a giving program called Planned Giving.  Generally this is an endowment program, but a one time donation would certainly be most welcome.  We are currently assisting the nuns at the Carmel in Lisieux,  France,  where St. Therese lived her final days as a nun.  The convent is in desperate need of repair and we are requesting donations to help the Sisters with these repairs.   Any organization or non profit group would be most happy, I'm sure, to speak with you by phone regarding the best way to remember your loved one.  Also, please remember a line from the Wizard of Oz, "A heart is not judged by how much it loves, but by how much it is loved by others."  I hope you find much peace in your decision.  God Bless.............best way to remember my loved one. she is using language that smooths over whats happening. i specifically asked her how much it would cost to get my rufian out of pergatory. the best way would be to talk in person. i also told her that my family was financially comfortable. im terrible arnt i?

[desertknight]

What you are "quoting" and I use that term very loosely here, has nothing to do with what you are talking about, that you said involved...

i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos

.

Really?  "God Bless.............best way to remember my loved one."  And of course, they aren't nuns, but are "assisting" them?  Really?  That's what they told you?  You know, the one, "just around the corner" from the "other one."   LoL.  

"Now I want everyone here to read this challenge to wayne.  I want everyone here to read exactly what he posts in response.  I want everyone here to know that the one thing he is never going to post, is a link to a website, or a phone number, or a contact info. to the Catholic site that he claims is providing an indulgence through a "card", which is doctrinally impossible anyway, that I can use to contact and question them or provide that information to the Diocese and Bishop that they are located in."

I'm not backing down from this one wayne.  Your a liar.

[wayne]

Oh, then in that case than we know it is a complete and total lie.  Those cards are just "intention" cards.  For example, they are for the "intention" of remembering those who are ill at Mass.  "Mass" cards are just that.  They are for those who cannot attend that particular Mass but who want a loved one remembered then.  Funny we don't hear from wayne himself on this, isn't it?.  wayne, is this the company that you said you spoke to on the phone?  

i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos

If so, let me know and I will call them and call the Diocese where they are located.  I patiently await...

ah, now it is you my friend that is lying. or misinformed. those people buying those cards think its helping their departed one. no need to kid a kidder. if your beloved church did it befor, why in the bloody hell wouldnt they do it now? doesnt the catholic church claim to never change? please dont make me find the vativan site where that is mentioned. i dont feel good rite now. fever, fluid on the lungs, coughing and spitting like freakin crazy

[wayne]

hold on there desert. i think im not sure of what you say im lying about. can u be specific about what u want me to prove? thanks

[desertknight]

I'm done with you.  Anyone reading through these posts knows exactly what you claimed.  Unlike you, I will let your own words do all the talking.  I should have known from the start when you lied about what you claimed that I said, which was totally false, that you were not a truthful person.    

[wayne]

I'm done with you.  Anyone reading through these posts knows exactly what you claimed.  Unlike you, I will let your own words do all the talking.  I should have known from the start when you lied about what you claimed that I said, which was totally false, that you were not a truthful person.    

i looked for the post for a min. its hard to concentrate with a fever. its not in this thread. will take me a long time to find. and sorry in advance if it wasnt you. but it was someone.

[wayne]

Arise, O Lord, and judge Thy cause. A wild boar has invaded Thy vineyard. Arise, O Peter, and consider the case of the Holy Roman Church, the mother of all churches, consecrated by thy blood. Arise, O Paul, who by thy teaching and death hast illumined and dost illumine the Church. Arise all ye saints, and the whole universal Church, whose interpretations of Scripture has been assailed. (papal bull of Pope Leo X, 1520) and desertknight

It truly seems to me that if this fury of the Romanists should continue, there is no remedy except that the emperor, kings, and princes, girded with force and arms, should resolve to attack this plague of all the earth no longer with words but with the sword. . . . If we punish thieves with the gallows, robbers with the sword, and heretics with fire, why do we not all the more fling ourselves with all our weapons upon these masters of perdition, these cardinals, these popes, and all this sink of Roman sodomy that ceaselessly corrupts the church of God and wash our hands in their blood so that we may free ourselves and all who belong to us from this most dangerous fire? (Martin Luther, 1521) and wayne

[wayne]

The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.

"Why are we bringing it back?

[wayne]

well wycliff, you are prophetic. i am going to use the link you mentioned as my example. those mass cards, they are for praying for the dead. some will say , remembering the dead. but the ones who sell them claim they are sent to priests and what not for them to pray for their errant loved one. now, what do you want this prayer to do? the guys dead. what is a prayer going to do. ? ill tell you what the suckers who buy thier mass cards think. they think the dearly departed is benefiting. desert is gonna scream that they dont. he says that they are just simple cards. which they are. but the purchaser thinks otherwise. some people spend fortunes on loved ones who they knew wont make it to heaved being the person they were at death. scads of dioses have gotten rich on this. desert is gonna call me a liarr. poor guy. i wonder if he gets tired of calling everyone a liar who exposes his beloved corrupt sinkhole of vice called cathoic church. ill tell you what. i wouldnt want his job. also desert forgets about all the unsophisticated people in south america and other third world areas that his church is fleecing with more than just indulgences. desert, dont embarasse yourself by saying that is a lie. dont feel bad, protestant evangelists have learned a good lesson from its mother church. they sell god all day long. all im doing is pointing out is that catholics need to wake up and get out befor they die in sin. those rituals the vatican serves up are bogus, and god is not hovering over that church smiling.

[wayne]

hey desert, they did a follow up. how much more do need? here it is:             Dear Wayne
Thank you for your email.  You may wish to use one of our Memorial cards.  This enrolment would mean that the deceased would be remembered in the daily Masses of the Carmelites for a 5 year period.  The card can either be purchased on line at www.&&&&&&r.org or, if you can let me have you address, I can forward a card to you..........................i told them that money was no object. what more do you want desert? theres tons of these people around. plus, i think every catholic church sells them or can refer you. i think desert is a vtican Bot that just calls everyone who exposes them a liar, like a mechanical parrot. by the way, i got this email around 2; 50 this morning. somebody there has visions of sugarplums

[wayne]

say bro desert, remember that i mentioned that the true meaning of catholicism is allowed to flower down in south america? i accidently ran into this............[aww crap, i cant get the picture off the site, but heres the text. the picture was a statue of mary with gold crown and bedecked with jewels............The last daylight spiders down from a small ring of stained glass in the ceiling. According to legend, a peasant found a wooden statue of the Virgin in Brazil and lugged it back to Andacollo where it became known for the miracles it bestowed on the faithful.

He found her, it's told, in a firewood pile, deep under branches and stumps, fully gowned in her white and gold, crowned and bejeweled. Why, we wonder later, deep into beers, would she choose to appear from a heap of timber? "Why not?

[papist1]

friend desert, why is it that you go up against me? arent there any more defenders of catholic faith around? you know i dont want to ruffle you. hey, ive been meaning to refute one of your statements. you said that sinners crept into the catholic church and caused the trouble and corruption. i want to remind you that all men are sinners. so you have to find another angle as to the corrupt ways of vatican past and present. saying sinners were responsible is too vauge. also, the mass cards for the dead, are useless. they cost, but they are useless. the bible says; it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. step back and take a look at all the verbal twisting and turning you have to do to justify pergatory. its simply anti scriptural. i went to a catholic site where they sell these cards. i told them i had a departed loved one who was a bad person and that how much do i need to donat to get him out of pergatory. the respondant mentioned an initial 25 buckeroos but that we should talk on the phone for more info.i have the email. ill post it in a while. come on desert buddy, denying it wont make it go away. the catholics are circleing the wagons trying to do damage control. denying the activities of the church. just like ploiticians. one gets caugt doing something, that they all are doing, and the rest say; oh what a bad person. he is a renigade. say, why dont you just get out of that religion and you wont have to bend over backwards explaining away the vile and corrupt practices.

exactly the point wayne.

Sin in this life, up until death.

No sin in heaven. Nothing unclean shall enter.

there must be a purification between this life and the next, a purgation if you will, by the blood of Christ and His merits.

The church calls this state of being for the soul, purgatory.

what do you call it wayne?

peace, papist

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

exactly the point wayne.

Sin in this life, up until death.

No sin in heaven. Nothing unclean shall enter.

there must be a purification between this life and the next, a purgation if you will, by the blood of Christ and His merits.

The church calls this state of being for the soul, purgatory.

what do you call it wayne?

peace, papist

FYI, wayne got himself banned a while back, so he won't be responding.