Obama Still Refuses to Produce Birth Certificate

[Hotrod]

Chuck Norris has an excellent article/personal opinion on this debate.  Chuck is a person who believes that Obama is a citizen of the US born on native soil and is thus qualified by birth to be president of the US.  In his article he says this:

Of course, not every U.S. citizen has access to his original birth certificate, but you do, and yours is the only one under debate. As valuable as copies can be, textual critics know that nothing outweighs an original, especially when only it contains the information under question.

Again, why don't you simply request, release and give permission to make public your original birth certificate?

Mr. President, you promised the American people that you are "committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government." In fact, in your July 23 prime-time news conference, you said that your administration has been more transparent than previous administrations: "I think that we have provided much greater transparency than existed prior to our administration coming in."  So again, I ask: Why not live out that transparency promise by posting your original birth certificate and end the division and debate?

The entire article is found at:
http://www.creators.com/conservative/chuck-norris/what-obama-and-my-wife-have-in-common.html

His arguments in the article are right on as to why Obama needs to produce a certified copy.  If Obama continues to refuse to produce the certified copy, then he is fueling the fires of division in the US and is purposely using this divisive issue to take the heat off of his "hidden agenda."

Division as far back as the Southern strategy has always been a desired effect by one political ideology. Chuck's idea, who himself is knee deep in the ideology of division, thinks that providing a birth certificate (again) is going to heal division is good for one Chuck chuckle.

[Hotrod]

Neither Phoebe nor Leeford were able to answer my question; can any birther?

For those of you who believe that the Obama birth certificate available on line is not legitimate, on what evidence do you base your opinion?

If you're willing to go around claiming that the president hasn't been transparent, that he hasn't provided the requested birth certificate, that there is any reason whatsoever for sane people to question his birth, surely you can tell how you know.

First, I am not a birther. As you call it.. I do find it interesting though...

Can you prove your argument as well? Look at this link... Bottom line is, I can't prove anything.. Neither can you. It is TOO easy to put this problem to bed. We ALL have an official recording of our birth. All he has to do is provide it. I know you will shoot down the link I provided.. I did it for a reason though. You may say it is not real. How do you know? Why won't they just release his birth certificate and do away with this problem? I am all for moving on...

I was never apart of this birth certificate thing. Only read about it on-line. But I do find it interesting how so many people can fall in behind BO and defend him when they do not know. If the birth certificate is a forgery below, it goes to prove how easy it is to do...

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764

The state of Hawaii has certified that the copy found online is legitimate.   The Republican governor of Hawaii has said that it is legitimate.  The head of the department of records has said that he's seen the official info with his own eyes - twice.

So, in all seriousness, what evidence to birthers have to back up their claim that the published copy is not a 'real' birth certificate?

The "Republican" governor of Hawaii has a lot to be desired as a Republican.  Using her position/name does not give any credibility to your case.

Obama can lay this to rest.  But he hasn't.  Why?  Because he thinks we can't keep an eye on him AND on his records at the same time.  I've got news for him.  We're all watching everything he does like hawks.  In case you don't know, hawks can see and hear amazing things from amazing distances.

Once he clears up the birth certificate issue, we will move on to the next thing.  So don't think silencing this issue is going to be the end of it.  He promised transparency.  We're holding him to it.  If he keeps this one, small thing a secret issue, imagine what big secrets he's keeping.  if he wants the support of the American people, we have to know he can be trusted.  WE DON'T KNOW THAT, AND WE DON'T..

Nothing like forcing a president to keep his promises, eh.

You didn't answer kmv's question. What do you base your evidence on?

[Hotrod]

I'm quite tired of being called racist if I don't approve of Obama, because those very same peple who call those who don't support his ways, are the ones who are making it a race issue.

Stop playing the race card! It is old, and needs to be put away to rest, or this country will NEVER be able to see someone for who they truly are without looking at color!

I know Memmy, if you speak truth, and others cannot provide an answear, well your a racist. I find African Americans who defend Obama, just because he is black racist. It should not matter your color, right is right and wrong is wrong. I  had moderators call me that. I call it disrespect for blacks for those who play the race card, to, call it racist, and make real acts of racism seem like nothing but the garbage they throw out as racist.

"...I find African Americans who defend Obama, just because he is black racist"

 

[memmy]

Actually Phoebe, KMV just proves my point.

As for Hotrod.....I agree with MLK when he said that he dreamed of a day that we would no longer be judged by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character. Some still seem clueless to what he was truly talking about.

[Hotrod]

Actually Phoebe, KMV just proves my point.

As for Hotrod.....I agree with MLK when he said that he dreamed of a day that we would no longer be judged by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character. Some still seem clueless to what he was truly talking about.

....yes....I wonder would MLK would be thinking if for the last 43 White presidents none had to provide a birth certificate to satisfy unsubstantiated claims, but once we elect a Black one, it is demanded that he has to?

....what do you think memmy, is that what MLK had in mind?

[memmy]

If any of the other Presidents had a Father from another country, whether he was from Norway, Holland, Mexico, or any other nations, I would bet that they would have to have proof that they were born in the United States hotrod.

That has nothing to do with color, but nationality. Being that the law states they have to be born in the USA, as an American Citizen, hotrod, it's nothing new, just always has been a requirement.

MLK was talking about character being the importance hotrod. Is it really that hard to understand that he wanted the character to be counted, not color? I would say he would be very unhappy that just because Obama has black in his family, that they would not look at the content of his character. That is, if you take what he said to be literal. Maybe you don't?

[phoebe]

Actually Phoebe, KMV just proves my point.

As for Hotrod.....I agree with MLK when he said that he dreamed of a day that we would no longer be judged by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character. Some still seem clueless to what he was truly talking about.

....yes....I wonder would MLK would be thinking if for the last 43 White presidents none had to provide a birth certificate to satisfy unsubstantiated claims, but once we elect a Black one, it is demanded that he has to?

....what do you think memmy, is that what MLK had in mind?

You just don't get it, do you, hotrod?

Our objections to Obama ET AL has absolutely ZERO to do with the color of his skin or his race. ZERO.

But everything to do with their agenda for this country. Period.

I object to his cronies, as well, and most standing nearest at his side are as caucasian as can be.  Like Biden.  Pelosi.  Reid.  I don't like what they are doing, either.  But they aren't the president, and they didn't promise transparency. 


The latest news is just more Big Brother garbage. Surprise, surprise.

[lightshineon]

 Black racist, bigots is what I see on this thread. BTW, HotROD, KMV, since I am court appointed guardian of an African American child, who is mentally challenged, One Latina child ( anyone of (you) outstanding citizens even bother to care enough to help, those in our race, who are really helpless)? They call me mom BTW. Point of fact, I have my own colors, which do not show up through gentics. You guy's insult African Americans who have had real struggles. You are just looking for a fight, because you are not in one. Do not get your little panties in a knot either, you call people racist, and all kinds of names. Show me KMV, where you God is love signature, really applies. If you know that God is love, you would treat people with love. You are the types Jesus, really got angry at! BTW, your precious Obama is half white, so you know? It is all like calling the Kettle Black. Just get over your victim mentally, and be men, who make a difference in this world. I am am with Memmey it is about character, not color, and most smart African Americans can not stand him.

[Mac]

It is stamped - you can even see the raised seal stamped on the document here:

Did you see the date on that certificate? June 6, 2007.. That is NOT an original B/C. Where is the ORIGINAL? Why would he need to verify that it is a COPY of the original. Just for the love of all that is good, show the original...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

A little info countering the fact check article. I know, I know. WND. However, factcheck is a liberal mouth piece. So, we are even.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105817

What, exactly, do you and phoebe and wiley and chuch norris want to see?

Transparency. Look, do YOU have a birth certificate? Could you provide proof to stop this same thing from happening to you? I could. It is right there in my closet. Same as my wife.. Daughter.. And ALL 3 of my boys... I could whip it out in about 15 seconds.... Case closed...

Is Obama too good to show his birth certificate?

I agree, this is silly.. But it is getting weirder by the day.. Why doesn't BO just show it? Not the guy in Hawaii.. Not some newspaper. BO himself...

Check this out about Lou Dobbs.
http://www.personalliberty.com/news/obama-birth-certificate-fallout-impacts-lou-dobbs-popularity-19299188/

[Mac]

Black racist, bigots is what I see on this thread. BTW, HotROD, KMV, since I am court appointed guardian of an African American child, who is mentally challenged, One Latina child ( anyone of (you) outstanding citizens even bother to care enough to help, those in our race, who are really helpless)? They call me mom BTW. Point of fact, I have my own colors, which do not show up through gentics. You guy's insult African Americans who have had real struggles. You are just looking for a fight, because you are not in one. Do not get your little panties in a knot either, you call people racist, and all kinds of names. Show me KMV, where you God is love signature, really applies. If you know that God is love, you would treat people with love. You are the types Jesus, really got angry at! BTW, your precious Obama is half white, so you know? It is all like calling the Kettle Black. Just get over your victim mentally, and be men, who make a difference in this world. I am am with Memmey it is about character, not color, and most smart African Americans can not stand him.

Whoooo!!!!

Mercy, tell it girl....

[Nancy Ann]

Okay, I have read all the posts here and have seen both birth certificates. There does seem to be some discreprancies. For instance:
On Obama's Kenya b/c ( http://orlytaitzesq.com/) it says his father's residence was Honolulu, Hawaai. Look where it says: (Signature, Description, and Residence of Informer)


Then I find this statement:

Hawaii allowed registration of Foreign births, in facts Obama's ½ sister Maya Soetoro has a HI COLB but was born in Indonesia.

http://obamanotqualified.com/hoax-claims_kenyan-birth-certificate-replies.htm

Someone also mentioned that his birth was announced in 2 Hawaaian newspapers. Well, it would stand to reason that if his father was living in Hawaai at the time he could have put the notices in the paper himself.

Just my observations on the subject.

[phoebe]

Read the article on Dobbs.

First, I can't believe CCN gives Dobbs a forum.  I expected him to get the boot ages ago. But that would make CCN look biased, now, wouldn't it?

Love the phrase used, "overwhelming evidence".  "Overwhelming evidence" it is not.  Barely evidence, is more like it.  In a court of law, I don't think he has presented enough evidence to us to  be convicted of being a US citizen.  And,  I believe "reasonable doubt" could be raised, and won.

[lightshineon]

Black racist, bigots is what I see on this thread. BTW, HotROD, KMV, since I am court appointed guardian of an African American child, who is mentally challenged, One Latina child ( anyone of (you) outstanding citizens even bother to care enough to help, those in our race, who are really helpless)? They call me mom BTW. Point of fact, I have my own colors, which do not show up through gentics. You guy's insult African Americans who have had real struggles. You are just looking for a fight, because you are not in one. Do not get your little panties in a knot either, you call people racist, and all kinds of names. Show me KMV, where you God is love signature, really applies. If you know that God is love, you would treat people with love. You are the types Jesus, really got angry at! BTW, your precious Obama is half white, so you know? It is all like calling the Kettle Black. Just get over your victim mentally, and be men, who make a difference in this world. I am am with Memmey it is about character, not color, and most smart African Americans can not stand him.

Whoooo!!!!

Mercy, tell it girl....

I do not wish, to be unkind or unloving, but how many people, on this thread have been called racist, by these two, and others? It is the OJ Simpson race card, that demeans the real struggle of African Americans. Where is the respect for other African Americans, and well other Christians commanded by Jesus.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It is TOO easy to put this problem to bed. We ALL have proof of our lack of racism (if we really aren't racist). All you have to do is provide it.

My two children are half-hispanic, and my godson is half-black.

Please provide your proof of non-racism.

[lightshineon]

It is TOO easy to put this problem to bed. We ALL have proof of our lack of racism (if we really aren't racist). All you have to do is provide it.

My two children are half-hispanic, and my godson is half-black.

Please provide your proof of non-racism.

These people should not be able to keep calling other Christians names. They just know they have no other leg to stand on besides rudeness, it seems what they do best.

[marc]

If someone would produce a photo of the newborn Obama wearing a lei, all of this would go away.

[jonmower]

...most smart African Americans can not stand [Obama].

Presumably this is an example of seeing the world the way you wish it was rather than the way it is.  Since roughly 95 % of black voters voted for Obama (which is greater than but not drastically different from the % that usually votes Democratic in a presidential election), I think it is safe to conclude that is untrue to say that "...most smart African Americans can not stand [Obama]."

[marc]

If they can stand Obama, then they must not be smart.  Stands to reason; if you think the Antichrist is a cool guy, ....

[marc]

Seriously, this is one of the most discouraging threads I've ever seen on this board.  People who should know better are promoting a conspiracy theory that has been plainly disproven.  I don't think the motive is race, but I can see why people think so--the rumor likely started with racist motives, and there seems to be little solid reason to keep it going.  I tend to believe the reason for most on this board that are promoting it, however, is an unrelenting partisanship that blinds people to other points of view.

I've read through this thread and I've looked up the evidence.  There's just nothing there.  And it's depressing that people are putting their credibility on the line promoting this.

I started to bump up another silly old thread, but read through it and saw that credible posters weren't promoting the nonsense there.  Seeing it being done here really makes my heart sink. 

It's not racism, but it does seem to be hatred. 

[lightshineon]

 Marc, got a LOL about the lei. I will say I do not think people, are curious about his birth certificate because of racism. I never heard anyone mention race, except some mad about the thread. I know my mom, liked Obama, is a life long democrat, along with my NC in laws who voted for him. My parents do not like him now. Look admit is a good conspiracy theory, whom ever would happen to be in office. Far as I know Bush was a white man a Texan at that and they made horrible movies, even about assassinating him. now would that go over now? The song that keeps running through my head is a Micheal Jackson song, with the lyrics ( You can be my baby I don't care if your black or white) I think maybe the Lord would not call us baby in that sense, but we all are God's children. You ask me to quit calling people koolaide drinkers I did. I do not see the difference in " Birthers, being disrespectful. obama is a racist, had a racist pastor, and will destroy the body of Christ if we let him. There are also white racist that go to church. This is an interesting theory, and some of us like  good mystery. I do not like Obama, because he is not a moral man. I do not care what color he is. I love Jesus Christ first, and love my brothers and sisters of color jut as much as I do the whites. Edie Amien ( bad spelling) Uganda was a black man, did not make him a good man. Obama is ruining our country, and I have never been one to follow blindly any man. Nelson Mandela (Sp) is a black man and a good man. see color does not matter, but character matters, and Christ above all.

[kmv]

I don't think accusing others of being racist is going to be tolerated by the Admin...

You mean, just because there is no evidence that memmy is racist, and memmy herself claims not to be racist, that I'm out of line to accuse her of racism? 

I'm out of line to continue to accuse her of racism despite the fact that she's met all reasonable standards of proof as a non-racist?

I'm out of line to demand that she prove her identity as a non-racist to some secret standard of proof that's good enough for me?

Hmmm.

[marc]

Seriously, this is one of the most discouraging threads I've ever seen on this board.  People who should know better are promoting a conspiracy theory that has been plainly disproven.  I don't think the motive is race, but I can see why people think so--the rumor likely started with racist motives, and there seems to be little solid reason to keep it going.  I tend to believe the reason for most on this board that are promoting it, however, is an unrelenting partisanship that blinds people to other points of view.

Just wanted to repeat this, since it seems to have been misunderstood.

[Bon Voyage]

I don't think accusing others of being racist is going to be tolerated by the Admin...

You mean, just because there is no evidence that memmy is racist, and memmy herself claims not to be racist, that I'm out of line to accuse her of racism?  

I'm out of line to continue to accuse her of racism despite the fact that she's met all reasonable standards of proof as a non-racist?

I'm out of line to demand that she prove her identity as a non-racist to some secret standard of proof that's good enough for me?

Hmmm.

Yes, it is out of line.  I will appreciate it if you stop accusing others of racism.

I don't believe the "birther" conspiracy, I think it is making conservatives look like fools.  Wishing something is so, because you wish it was so, and convincing yourself it is true, is not a grounds for racism, or an accusation thereof.
Not to mention that McCain validated his birth certificate.

[kmv]

I don't think accusing others of being racist is going to be tolerated by the Admin...

You mean, just because there is no evidence that memmy is racist, and memmy herself claims not to be racist, that I'm out of line to accuse her of racism? 

I'm out of line to continue to accuse her of racism despite the fact that she's met all reasonable standards of proof as a non-racist?

I'm out of line to demand that she prove her identity as a non-racist to some secret standard of proof that's good enough for me?

Hmmm.

Yes, it is out of line.  I will appreciate it if you stop accusing others of racism.

I don't believe the "birther" conspiracy, I think it is making conservatives look like fools.  Wishing something is so, because you wish it was so, and convincing yourself it is true, is not a grounds for racism, or an accusation thereof.
Not to mention that McCain validated his birth certificate.

It's satire. 

Admittedly not my best skill, but I don't think it's all that hard to see the parallel between making an accusation of racism without rational evidence, and making a claim that the birth certificate is false without rational evidence. 

Just as memmy can never prove her lack of racism to my satisfaction (assuming that I, like birthers, refuse to bow to rational thought & reality), so can Obama's birth never be proven to people like phoebe, because she refuses to bow to reality & rational thought.

Furthermore, should anyone ask what evidence has brought me to the conclusion that memmy's a racist, I'll just point out that obviously, anyone who wasn't in on the conspiracy would realize that any evidence that memmy's not a racist is forged.  Duh.

[WileyClarkson]

kmv,

There is some racism and bigotry in everybody on this thread and in the whole world for that matter.  Racism has been with us since the Tower of Babel and will be with us until Christ returns.  However, it is what we do with that racism that determins our character.  If we let it control us and our thoughts and actions towards others, then we are racists.  However, if we control it, even though it exists in us, we are not racists in the sense of the word that is being used on this thread.  If we control it, then we treat everyone as equals and we don't try to make points or decissions based on race--as Obama did in the Gates affair and Gates himself did when Crowley was investigating the burglar complaint.  Obama has used the race card way too much and is using the race card to draw attention away from the real agenda.

Now, you asked why some of us want to see the real birth certificate and have him prove he has the right to be President.  I speak only for my self on this answer because it is from my own personal job exerience that I speak.

You have known me for a long time here on the Forum.  I have told you in years gone by about some of my personal experiences as a white male in the job market.  My wife and I have been involved in company diversity programs on our plant site for a while.  I work for an African American shift supervisor and have stayed with this particular man for a long time!  You know that I am a nuclear security officer.  To become a nuclear security officer, I had to prove my US citizenship with an official certified birth certificate.  No certified birth certificate--no job--by the rules of the Federal Government--NRC to be exact.  Obama should have to do the same--PERIOD!  After 26 years of employment, I get a paultry $20.00/hour to put my life on the line to protect the US from the possible effects of a nuclear terriorist act that causes a radioactive release.  Obama gets hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, not to mention huge personal benefits, to be President and make decissions that could lead us into a nuclear war and you don't think he should have to prove he should be qualified by producing a certified birth certificate that says he has the right to hold the job because he was born on US soil when this is a Constitutional requirement?  As far as I am concerned, EVERY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE A CERTIFIED BIRTH CERTIFICATE BEFORE BEING ALLOWED TO RUN FOR OFFICE!  I went through an extensive background through the FBI and local law enforcement, not to mention the private company investigators, before I was hired because I would be carrying a gun, and have to take psychological testing every 5 years along with fingerprinting and up to date background check every three years.  Do you think Obama has to do that?  NOPE!  He is automatically cleared for top secret because he is the elected President of the US!  All he has to do is prove his age and birth status!

I don't give a tinker's %&*^%$ about his color, race, or racial diversity.  His position as leader of the US puts him in a position of power over all of us.  I want to know, regardless of who I voted for, that this person who was elected is qualified to be President under the US Constitution!  Obam continues to flaunt the US Constitution as to whether or not he has the right to be the President of the US!

It's not a guilty until proved innocent or innocent until guilty situation.  It's a prove you meet the qualifications for the job if you want the job situation! 

[kmv]

kmv,

There is some racism and bigotry in everybody on this thread and in the whole world for that matter....

Did you read the 'it's satire' part?  I just picked racist because I assumed at least some of you would pick up on the parallels.  I might just as easily have accused of being from outer space, or a mugger, or a spy for North Korea.  Anything that would point out the ridiculousness of some folks refusing to accept reasonable proof in their quest to discredit someone else.

Now, you asked why some of us want to see the real birth certificate and have him prove he has the right to be President...

No, I didn't ask that.  I asked exactly what 'holes' are there; exactly what evidence you need beyond the certification of the state of Hawaii.  A sign from heaven?  Does God himself need to come down and point to Obama?  Or will you still stubbornly cling to your foolishness?

Obama has proven his right to be president.  I'm just trying to understand how people of presumably normal intelligence have gotten themselves to the point that they adamantly refuse to use the sense God gave them and just face the reality that they lost the election.

[Mere Nick]

I believe Obama was born in Hawaii or else Hillary would have nailed him on it.  It appears to serve Obama's political interests to let this conspiracy theory ride.  It certainly appears to have the hallmarks of a good conspiracy, what with a few seemingly loose looking threads and all. 

[lightshineon]

I believe Obama was born in Hawaii or else Hillary would have nailed him on it.  It appears to serve Obama's political interests to let this conspiracy theory ride.  It certainly appears to have the hallmarks of a good conspiracy, what with a few seemingly loose looking threads and all. 

Hillary tried to nail him, something about her going to Kenya. I could have bought it except for the Major in the Military, just being reassigned. I know my husband is an officer, it don't happen that way. The not having his own copy of birth certificate. My kindergartners had to prove they were who they say they are, and they would be five by Sept 15Th. Why does he fight it. It is not foolish, Lou Dobbs put himself on the line, and he is not a conservative. Guess people can think what they want, but there is reasonable doubt, I believe. BTW where is his school records, medical records? How did he travel to Kenya when Hawaii has his only copy of Birth certificate? How did obtain a passport, without it? These are homeland security days. Why spend so much  effort and time fighting it. KMV, accept it this man is not from God, he is wicked, and kills babies, the old.  H is arrogant, What a Godly man. He is arrogant and has a haughty look, sheds innocent blood. Just a few of the things God hates, plus he mocked the word of God, that is not a Christian.

[spirit]

Conspiracy?  Loose threads?  What are some of you talking about?  President Obama is as American as you can get - face the truth.  If your faith is so strong, what are you afraid of?  I was considering coming back to the Christian community...but some of you seem to have become more stupid and unintelligent than I remembered!

[Mere Nick]

Conspiracy?  Loose threads?  What are some of you talking about?  President Obama is as American as you can get - face the truth.  If your faith is so strong, what are you afraid of?  I was considering coming back to the Christian community...but some of you seem to have become more stupid and unintelligent than I remembered!

What does this matter about birth records have to do with faith?  I'd nominate your post if they gave non-sequitor awards.

[lightshineon]

Conspiracy?  Loose threads?  What are some of you talking about?  President Obama is as American as you can get - face the truth.  If your faith is so strong, what are you afraid of?  I was considering coming back to the Christian community...but some of you seem to have become more stupid and unintelligent than I remembered!

Well sounds like no faith to begin with. Your choice, turn or burn.

[Bon Voyage]

kmv,

There is some racism and bigotry in everybody on this thread and in the whole world for that matter....

Did you read the 'it's satire' part?  I just picked racist because I assumed at least some of you would pick up on the parallels.  I might just as easily have accused of being from outer space, or a mugger, or a spy for North Korea.  Anything that would point out the ridiculousness of some folks refusing to accept reasonable proof in their quest to discredit someone else.

Now, you asked why some of us want to see the real birth certificate and have him prove he has the right to be President...

No, I didn't ask that.  I asked exactly what 'holes' are there; exactly what evidence you need beyond the certification of the state of Hawaii.  A sign from heaven?  Does God himself need to come down and point to Obama?  Or will you still stubbornly cling to your foolishness?

Obama has proven his right to be president.  I'm just trying to understand how people of presumably normal intelligence have gotten themselves to the point that they adamantly refuse to use the sense God gave them and just face the reality that they lost the election.

Partisanship does that to people.  I didn't see you defending Bush from the equally crazy behavior from liberals prior to Obama.

[Jaime]

Nick nailed it. Hillary woulda never left this stone unturned in her power quest. Not in a million years!

[Mere Nick]

Well, some folks figure since Bush created Katrina and steered it into New Orleans, he must have blown up the WTC.

[Bon Voyage]

Well, some folks figure since Bush created Katrina and steered it into New Orleans, he must have blown up the WTC.

Risian technology no doubt!