Bible alone?

[Tantor]

My reply was not proof-text, it was in context. Paul is stating that the church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of truth.  The Bible was given and cannonized from the church, the church was not born from the Bible.

I think it is ironic that Protestants base their entire existence on the Bible and accuse Catholics of supressing the Bible. It is the Catholic Church who gave you the King James Bible.  It is also the Catholic church who cannonized the four gospels under guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There were over 100 gospels that could have been cannonized.  You base your entire faith on the four that were cannonized.  It was the Catholic church who cannonized those four.  You say, you can't trust the Catholic church. However, if you  believe in sola scriptura, you are entrusting your entire faith on a "tradition" that was brought to you by the Catholic church.  Then you have the nerve to accuse the Catholic church of supressing the Bible and having a disdain for it..  I think you need to be a little ignorant and/or schizophrenic to be a sola scriptura protestant

1.) The bible was written by Christ's original disciples + Paul.. prior to the creation of the catholic church... it's just later on that the church decided to sift through all the writings and 'canonize' some and discard/destroy others.

2.) The Catholic church had nothing to do with the creation of the King James Bible.  The KJV was commissioned by the Anglican church in England.. who rejected the RCC.

3.) Whether or not the four were canonized or not by the Catholic church is an irrelevant argument.. it just doesn't matter.

4.) The few remaining legacies that the Protestant have brought from Catholicism are still a bone of contention for me.

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

There is so much disinformation in your post that it is quite sad.

[winsome]

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[Tantor]

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[winsome]

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[Tantor]

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[winsome]

5.) If protestants had found a compelling reason to alter the canon.. they would have and should.

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[Tantor]

Here are the first 10

* St. Peter (32-67), Matthew 16:18
* St. Linus (67-76), 2Timothy 4:21
* St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
* St. Clement I (88-97), Philippians 4:3
* St. Evaristus (97-105)
* St. Alexander I (105-115)
* St. Sixtus I (115-125)
* St. Telesphorus (125-136)
* St. Hyginus (136-140)
* St. Pius I (140-155)

And none of them claimed to be Pope.  The office of 'Pope' didnt show up till Gregory.. a severe departure from apostolic tradition.

There isn't even any evidence that Linus was known by Peter or ordained by him.  (Paul mentioned a Linus at one point but not in reference to Peter..).

In fact Tertullian maintains that Clement was Peters successor so where did the other 2 come from?

And one question that no one seems to ever want to answer is this.

We know that Peter was a devout Jew and he loved his countrymen and Jesus commanded him to preach to the Jew first.. and then the Gentile... why in the world would Peter set up his successor and seat of his church in the capital of the Jews arch enemy?... it makes no sense whatsoever.  It sounds more like Peter's enemies were co-opting his name and pirating his church instead.

[normfromga]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

[winsome]

Here are the first 10

* St. Peter (32-67), Matthew 16:18
* St. Linus (67-76), 2Timothy 4:21
* St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
* St. Clement I (88-97), Philippians 4:3
* St. Evaristus (97-105)
* St. Alexander I (105-115)
* St. Sixtus I (115-125)
* St. Telesphorus (125-136)
* St. Hyginus (136-140)
* St. Pius I (140-155)

And none of them claimed to be Pope.  The office of 'Pope' didnt show up till Gregory.. a severe departure from apostolic tradition.

There isn't even any evidence that Linus was known by Peter or ordained by him.  (Paul mentioned a Linus at one point but not in reference to Peter..).

In fact Tertullian maintains that Clement was Peters successor so where did the other 2 come from?

And one question that no one seems to ever want to answer is this.

We know that Peter was a devout Jew and he loved his countrymen and Jesus commanded him to preach to the Jew first.. and then the Gentile... why in the world would Peter set up his successor and seat of his church in the capital of the Jews arch enemy?... it makes no sense whatsoever.  It sounds more like Peter's enemies were co-opting his name and pirating his church instead.

You will find these points answered in post#173 in this thread.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/the-root-of-our-differences-is-the-authority-we-claim/165/

[winsome]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

[desertknight]

There is no "office of Pope", as such, then or today.  It is an erroneous argument.  The word "pope" simply means 'dad' or 'papa' in English.  That it is commonly used as a title today is one of tradition, not doctrine or necessity.  It is simply a term of endearment that has became the most popular of one of many official names for the chief Bishop of the Church.  That he is the inheritor of Peter's See is what makes him Pope, not what we happen to call him.  It is also not necessarily important that he be located in Rome, (The Papacy was located in Avignon, France, for a time.).  It is the traditional office as Bishop of that city that he inherents Peter's place, but it is the colloquial decision by the senior Bishops to appoint one to that chair that makes one the Pope.  There is nothing "magical" as such, about the fact that it is in Rome except of the history of Peter's place there and it's place of the importance of Rome as the capital of the empire that persecuted us.

Most Protestants get the definition of Apostolic Succession wrong as well.  Any good Catholic site will provide evidence of Tertullian or others different arrangement of which 'Pope' came before which in the list of dates.  That in the Church's best record, Linus is second is what the Church claimes.  Whether it turns out to be the case or not has no importance except to tradition and to Church historians.  That is not what the Succession is.  That Clement may have been second and not third is not important.  That he is validly ordained by proper authority is all that counts.  That is the ONLY thing that constitutes Apostolic Succession.  

Clement is the first Pope outside of canonical scripture that we have a clear record of in exercising his authority over the whole Church.  He did so in his Epistle to the Corinthians which is not only accepted as completely valid, until the compiling of the Vulgate several hundred years later, it was widely considered inspired canonical writing and included in the readings at Mass as part of scripture.  

Tens of thousands of Catholic priests are married, BTW.  All Eastern Rite Catholic priests are free to marry and most do.  Celibacy for the Latin rite is simply a discipline in the example of our Lord's life and Paul's admonition for those who wish to serve in the Church's leadership.  It is not a doctrinal issue with us Catholics and whether a priest is married or not has no bearing on their validity.  The priest of my old parish, a former Anglican priest, was married and had a large family.  It had no bearing on his validity as a Catholic priest.

[Tantor]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

[winsome]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

Where do you get that from?

[Amo]

Protestants had neither compelling reasons not authority to alter the canon.

Eugenio Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome during the Shoah who became convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah, was baptised in Rome's Basilica of Mary of the Angels in 1945. Asked why he did not join one of the Protestant denominations, Zolli replied:
"Because protesting is not attesting. I do not intend to embarrass anyone by asking: "Why wait 1,500 years to protest?

[Tantor]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

Where do you get that from?

overseer = elder or bishop.. depends on which translation you use.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications for Overseers

1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Pretty clear to me..

And like I said before.. Catholic Priests fall in line more with temple priests for Artimis then they do for elders/deacon or apostles.

It's hard to examine the way a celibate priest manages his family and children to determine their qualifications for elder if they have none..

[winsome]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

Where do you get that from?

overseer = elder or bishop.. depends on which translation you use.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications for Overseers

1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Pretty clear to me..

And like I said before.. Catholic Priests fall in line more with temple priests for Artimis then they do for elders/deacon or apostles.

It's hard to examine the way a celibate priest manages his family and children to determine their qualifications for elder if they have none..

It's not more than one wife, not must have a wife. Paul was not imposing marriage as a qualification. Paul himself wasn't married and there is no indication that Timothy or Titus were either.

[Tantor]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

Where do you get that from?

overseer = elder or bishop.. depends on which translation you use.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications for Overseers

1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Pretty clear to me..

And like I said before.. Catholic Priests fall in line more with temple priests for Artimis then they do for elders/deacon or apostles.

It's hard to examine the way a celibate priest manages his family and children to determine their qualifications for elder if they have none..

It's not more than one wife, not must have a wife. Paul was not imposing marriage as a qualification. Paul himself wasn't married and there is no indication that Timothy or Titus were either.

Then how do you examine the way they raise their families as a requirement of eldership?

Sounds like you just want to take the non-biblical easy way out when choosing bishops..

[winsome]

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13

But why are there no more such guardians of the Truth in the RCC, since all these passages describe married men?

Paul wasn't married. But what is your point anyway? Celibacy is a practice of Latin Rite Catholics. many Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests (but not Bishops). It is not a doctrinal issue.

It actually is.. because elders are to be married.

Where do you get that from?

overseer = elder or bishop.. depends on which translation you use.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications for Overseers

1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Pretty clear to me..

And like I said before.. Catholic Priests fall in line more with temple priests for Artimis then they do for elders/deacon or apostles.

It's hard to examine the way a celibate priest manages his family and children to determine their qualifications for elder if they have none..

It's not more than one wife, not must have a wife. Paul was not imposing marriage as a qualification. Paul himself wasn't married and there is no indication that Timothy or Titus were either.

Then how do you examine the way they raise their families as a requirement of eldership?

Sounds like you just want to take the non-biblical easy way out when choosing bishops..

You don't need to examine their families if they don't have one. Are you now suggesting that they both have to be married and have a family?

There is nothing biblical about your suggestion.

[Tantor]

You don't need to examine their families if they don't have one. Are you now suggesting that they both have to be married and have a family?

There is nothing biblical about your suggestion.

The bible would seem to differ with you.

The qualifications are to have but one wife and to be able to examine their family for how they raise their families will reflect how they act as elders.

If you cannot examine their families then you cannot determine if they are qualified for eldership or not.. plain and simple.

[winsome]

You don't need to examine their families if they don't have one. Are you now suggesting that they both have to be married and have a family?

There is nothing biblical about your suggestion.

The bible would seem to differ with you.

The qualifications are to have but one wife and to be able to examine their family for how they raise their families will reflect how they act as elders.

If you cannot examine their families then you cannot determine if they are qualified for eldership or not.. plain and simple.

That's simply nonsense. Paul is making the point that they should not have been married more than once.

Paul himself says that he thinks it better for men not to be married so that they can give their time fully to the Lord.
"I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.  But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided.

[EDWARDJL]

These post show the ignorance of most Protestants when it comes to history and philosophy.

The original post was the "Bible Alone" or "Sola Scriptura".  Why have we diverted so far? Whether Popes were married or not has no bearing on the original subject. This is what Bill Clinton and many politicians do.

They can not defend their position, so they try to smear the opponent and discredit them.  The Bible itself makes the case that the LORD taught more than what it only in the Bible. Although everything in the Bible is profitable and divinely inspired.

[normfromga]

These post show the ignorance of most Protestants when it comes to history and philosophy.

The original post was the "Bible Alone" or "Sola Scriptura".  Why have we diverted so far? Whether Popes were married or not has no bearing on the original subject. This is what Bill Clinton and many politicians do.

They can not defend their position, so they try to smear the opponent and discredit them.  The Bible itself makes the case that the LORD taught more than what it only in the Bible. Although everything in the Bible is profitable and divinely inspired.

No this is not history or philosophy, but logic or forensics.

Winsome defends oral traditions of the RCC by claiming Paul had told us who were the people who are to be entrusted with his teaching:   Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons.
Yet using the very verses he cites, the RCC hierarchy does not have such people qualified to be entrusted with the truth.

The fact that Paul, and probably Timothy and Titus, were not married is irrelevant to Winsome's argument.   Paul was an apostle, while Timothy and Titus were preachers; they did not claim to be bishops, presbyters or deacons.

The followup argument that Paul meant such people should actually be divorced or widowed would still disqualify the majority of RCC clergy.

Yet, Winsome uses these arguments to support the use of oral traditions as a valid alternative to Sola Scriptura, without explaining how it could apply to the RCC.

[winsome]

These post show the ignorance of most Protestants when it comes to history and philosophy.

The original post was the "Bible Alone" or "Sola Scriptura".  Why have we diverted so far? Whether Popes were married or not has no bearing on the original subject. This is what Bill Clinton and many politicians do.

They can not defend their position, so they try to smear the opponent and discredit them.  The Bible itself makes the case that the LORD taught more than what it only in the Bible. Although everything in the Bible is profitable and divinely inspired.

No this is not history or philosophy, but logic or forensics.

Winsome defends oral traditions of the RCC by claiming Paul had told us who were the people who are to be entrusted with his teaching:   Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons.
Yet using the very verses he cites, the RCC hierarchy does not have such people qualified to be entrusted with the truth.

The fact that Paul, and probably Timothy and Titus, were not married is irrelevant to Winsome's argument.   Paul was an apostle, while Timothy and Titus were preachers; they did not claim to be bishops, presbyters or deacons.

The followup argument that Paul meant such people should actually be divorced or widowed would still disqualify the majority of RCC clergy.

Yet, Winsome uses these arguments to support the use of oral traditions as a valid alternative to Sola Scriptura, without explaining how it could apply to the RCC.

Timothy and Titus were much more than just preachers. Timothy was put in charge of the church at Ephesus (see 1 Tim 1) and was ordained personally by Paul (see 2 Tim 1). Titus was appointed in charge of the churches in Crete. A mere preacher does not have the authority to ordain bishops and priests. .

[normfromga]

A mere preacher does not have the authority to ordain bishops and priests.

Perhaps it is not common today, except possibly in missionary fields, where there is no large pool of lifelong believers from which to create a local leadership. 

But to say flatly that it is never done today in the RCC does not bode well for its claim to being the same church spoke of in the bible.

Also, if you are claiming priest = presbyter, you are only reconfronting the biblical qualification issue.

[banished]

normfromga,

Rome is a long way from the backwoods of Georgia, so I can't help but wonder how you are getting all this inside information?

[normfromga]

normfromga,

Rome is a long way from the backwoods of Georgia, so I can't help but wonder how you are getting all this inside information?

Rome, Georgia is our backwoods, but if you want all this inside information, check inside your  Bible.

[desertknight]

normfromga,

Rome is a long way from the backwoods of Georgia, so I can't help but wonder how you are getting all this inside information?

Rome, Georgia is our backwoods, but if you want all this inside information, check inside your  Bible.

[banished]

normfromga,

Rome is a long way from the backwoods of Georgia, so I can't help but wonder how you are getting all this inside information?

Rome, Georgia is our backwoods, but if you want all this inside information, check inside your  Bible.

That was a good answer.  I'm proud of you.  God bless!

[mclees8]

The written word is very important. We will all be judged by it whether we were true to it or if we were not. We cannot leave Gods word to just men.  We can  see what man does. When it is all said and done the written word will be our indictment in the day of judgment.   

In the temptation in the wilderness. Satan tried to tripe Jesus up with what was written but Jesus also overcame Satan with the very word saying it is also written. Don't listen to every wind of doctrine and teaching. You better know fully what Gods word says. You say its not bible only. No it isn't but is a life that is transformed by it.
God bless

[winsome]

The written word is very important. We will all be judged by it whether we were true to it or if we were not.

We will be judged on the life we have lived and whether we followed Christ or ourselves.

Someone said to a Catholic with whom they were having a discussion "After all we both worship the same God

[mclees8]

The written word is very important. We will all be judged by it whether we were true to it or if we were not.

We will be judged on the life we have lived and whether we followed Christ or ourselves.

Someone said to a Catholic with whom they were having a discussion "After all we both worship the same God

[winsome]

The written word is very important. We will all be judged by it whether we were true to it or if we were not.

We will be judged on the life we have lived and whether we followed Christ or ourselves.

Someone said to a Catholic with whom they were having a discussion "After all we both worship the same God

[Amo]

The Catholic Church was not born in corruption, or invented its own doctrines or re-invented Christianity.

It's an outrageous suggestion coming from a Protestant. It was the "reformers" who after 1500 years of Christianity decided to re-invent Christianity in  a myriad of ways according to their own desires.

    THE CODE OF OUR LORD
    THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.

    SECOND EDITION.


    BOOK 1.


    TITLE 1.

    CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
    CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NO ONE
    SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.

           1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.

           We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.

           (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.

            Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.

           2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.

           Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.

           (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.

           (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.

           Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.

            3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.

           No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.

           Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.

           4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.

           Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."

           This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."

           We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.

           The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:

           With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.

        [pg. 125]

        One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.

        The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.

        PREFACE.

           We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.

        Chapter I.

           Concerning Four Holy Councils.

           Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.

        Chapter II.

           Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.

           Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.

Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rome's power comes not from Christ by way of His Holy Spirit, but rather through her fornications with the kings of this earth.  While Christ and His apostles were persecuted and killed by the powers that be of this world, Rome continually enters into illicit relationships with the same to increase her power in this world.

[winsome]

The Catholic Church was not born in corruption, or invented its own doctrines or re-invented Christianity.

It's an outrageous suggestion coming from a Protestant. It was the "reformers" who after 1500 years of Christianity decided to re-invent Christianity in  a myriad of ways according to their own desires.

    THE CODE OF OUR LORD
    THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.

    SECOND EDITION.


    BOOK 1.


    TITLE 1.

    CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
    CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NO ONE
    SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.

           1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.

           We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.

           (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.

            Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.

           2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.

           Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.

           (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.

           (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.

           Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.

            3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.

           No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.

           Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.

           4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.

           Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."

           This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."

           We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.

           The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:

           With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.

        [pg. 125]

        One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.

        The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.

        PREFACE.

           We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.

        Chapter I.

           Concerning Four Holy Councils.

           Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.

        Chapter II.

           Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.

           Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.

Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great wh*re that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rome's power comes not from Christ by way of His Holy Spirit, but rather through her fornications with the kings of this earth.  While Christ and His apostles were persecuted and killed by the powers that be of this world, Rome continually enters into illicit relationships with the same to increase her power in this world.

Yes, at the end of the 4th century the Catholic Church was made the official religion of the two parts of the Roman Empire by the Emperors Theodosius and Gratians. And that shows what?

While Christ and His apostles were persecuted and killed by the powers that be of this world, Rome continually enters into illicit relationships with the same to increase her power in this world. - We are talking about over 300 years after the death of the last apostle when the Emperor had been converted to Christianity.

So what exactly is your point apart from throwing a lot of mud around hoping some of it will stick. What is the point of the scripture you quoted. None of it is applicable to the Catholic Church.

[mclees8]

The written word is very important. We will all be judged by it whether we were true to it or if we were not.

We will be judged on the life we have lived and whether we followed Christ or ourselves.

Someone said to a Catholic with whom they were having a discussion "After all we both worship the same God