Catholic bashing

[winsome]

I joined this forum only recently and thought there could be some useful discussions on Catholic doctrines and practices. But reading through some of the threads in the Catholic Forum and particularly the current ones I am appalled by the hate and distortions being spewed out by some of the Protestant participants. I'm very surprised that this is tolerated. The forum is obviously poorly moderated.

I don't think I shall hang round just to be abused.

God bless

winsome

[banished]

I joined this forum only recently and thought there could be some useful discussions on Catholic doctrines and practices. But reading through some of the threads in the Catholic Forum and particularly the current ones I am appalled by the hate and distortions being spewed out by some of the Protestant participants. I'm very surprised that this is tolerated. The forum is obviously poorly moderated.

I don't think I shall hang round just to be abused.

God bless

winsome

Hello winsome,

Sometimes I wonder why we Catholics put up with all the Bashing?  One thing to remember is that the Internet has attracted guys who like to talk smack, but who have never had the guts to do it man to man. That fact seems to be a constant with all Internet Forums. We have to face another fact that Catholic Bashing is the only acceptable prejudice left in the United States.  Catholics are often confident that they have a fuller truth, so bashing doesn't seem to really matter. Catholics want to concentrate on the things they can do to evangelize, so you let the chips fall where they may. The prejudice is very real on this Forum but you can't allow yourself to get bitter. It would be surprising if they didn't hate the Church. Most Forum members define themselves in relation to Catholicism. They call themselves "enlightened" in relation to the Middle Ages; "Protestants" are defined in relation to the Catholic experience. Both unbelievers and other Christians define themselves in relation to the Church. All of our history books have a built-in anti-Catholic bias. Catholics have gradually accepted the premises of the other side by absorbing the tonality and the manners of the prejudice. But remember, Catholics are generally doing well in America; they like America, and they think anti-Catholicism is a kind of fringe position on these Internet Forums. Mostly from disgrunted divorsed Catholics who are excommunicated. The abuse continues on!
   

[winsome]

I joined this forum only recently and thought there could be some useful discussions on Catholic doctrines and practices. But reading through some of the threads in the Catholic Forum and particularly the current ones I am appalled by the hate and distortions being spewed out by some of the Protestant participants. I'm very surprised that this is tolerated. The forum is obviously poorly moderated.

I don't think I shall hang round just to be abused.

God bless

winsome

Hello winsome,

Sometimes I wonder why we Catholics put up with all the Bashing?  One thing to remember is that the Internet has attracted guys who like to talk smack, but who have never had the guts to do it man to man. That fact seems to be a constant with all Internet Forums. We have to face another fact that Catholic Bashing is the only acceptable prejudice left in the United States.  Catholics are often confident that they have a fuller truth, so bashing doesn't seem to really matter. Catholics want to concentrate on the things they can do to evangelize, so you let the chips fall where they may. The prejudice is very real on this Forum but you can't allow yourself to get bitter. It would be surprising if they didn't hate the Church. Most Forum members define themselves in relation to Catholicism. They call themselves "enlightened" in relation to the Middle Ages; "Protestants" are defined in relation to the Catholic experience. Both unbelievers and other Christians define themselves in relation to the Church. All of our history books have a built-in anti-Catholic bias. Catholics have gradually accepted the premises of the other side by absorbing the tonality and the manners of the prejudice. But remember, Catholics are generally doing well in America; they like America, and they think anti-Catholicism is a kind of fringe position on these Internet Forums. Mostly from disgrunted divorsed Catholics who are excommunicated. The abuse continues on!
   

I'm not bitter banished, just sad at the lack of charity.

[broach972]

I joined this forum only recently and thought there could be some useful discussions on Catholic doctrines and practices. But reading through some of the threads in the Catholic Forum and particularly the current ones I am appalled by the hate and distortions being spewed out by some of the Protestant participants. I'm very surprised that this is tolerated. The forum is obviously poorly moderated.

I don't think I shall hang round just to be abused.

God bless

winsome

You just have no idea how ugly it has gotten in the past.  You will see some names in black...not a good sign.  It has gotten a little better though in the past few months.  There are some very nice members here who have great questions and who really want to know what Catholics truly believe in.

Withhold your judgements until you have spent some time here.  You will run into some that will try your patience but I have learned just to ignore them and go with the flow.

[desertknight]

I basically agree with broach, but I have been here long enough do develop a prickly defence when people step over the line.  When others who call themselves "Christians", drag Holy Mother Church through the mud, I give it back to them.  I won't sit like a potted plant.  I know this is not a Catholic board and many here are great Christian people, but I have posted on a couple of Catholic boards and if anyone attacked Protestants with the same language that I have seen here...they would be immediately banned.   The odd thing is, you just don't really see it on Catholic boards.  I don't know why it is so different.  I suspect it is just that we generally don't give Protestants much thought, not in a bad way, it's just we don't really think that much about them, contrarily, my experience discussing things with Protestants here though is that many of them have grown up with some very, very, harsh ideas about the Catholic Church, much of it based on erroneous information, and think much about us.  The other thing that causes me to  , is that you can tell someone how they have gotten a big point of Catholic belief wrong, prove it with irrefutable evidence, correct them as charitably as possible, and then two days later they are repeating the same old baseless charge that they know to be wrong to begin with.  One fellow here kept insisting that a basic tenet of Catholic belief was that Popes claim to be, "God", no kidding, this ignorant man actually kept insisting that it is Church doctrine that Popes claim divinity.  Now of course it comes from the concept of being Christ's "Vicar".  No matter how I explained to him that not only Popes, but Bishops and priests, including Anglican "vicars" and Lutheran pastors, use the same title, and no matter how much I sited irrefutable evidence that no Pope claims to be a deity and that it simply means that he is the "place holder" of Christ, i.e., the representative of Christ's authority, (As the Father has sent Me, so I send you...), and that it is perfectly consistent with Scripture and common sense, the guy was back using the same basic, "Popes claim to be God", charge again and again without any evidence to support it of course.   I just scratch my head at such incidences and wonder what motivates people to dwell in such ignorance.  

[winsome]

There seem to be multitudinous protestant web sites dedicated to Catholic bashing in the most nasty and deciptful ways but I don't know of any Catholic web sites dedicated to Protestant bashing.   

I stick around for a bit.

God bless

winsome

[ex cathedra]

I joined this forum only recently and thought there could be some useful discussions on Catholic doctrines and practices. But reading through some of the threads in the Catholic Forum and particularly the current ones I am appalled by the hate and distortions being spewed out by some of the Protestant participants. I'm very surprised that this is tolerated. The forum is obviously poorly moderated.

I don't think I shall hang round just to be abused.



God bless

winsome

Are they bashing Roman Catholics ? Or the  papacys anathema doctrines which are very Anti- Christ .Since theses doctrines of his,  reject that  people of faith in Jesus merits alone , are TRULY  saved by their dear savior Jesus perfect atoning work .

Dont you find it wrong that the papacy can bash Jesus his atoning work for Christians including Roman catholic christians.


But if some christian bashes  the popes dirty rotten sticking to high heavens doctrines that reject Jesus his perfect work only then some  Roman Catholics  call foul !

[desertknight]

There seem to be multitudinous protestant web sites dedicated to Catholic bashing in the most nasty and deciptful ways but I don't know of any Catholic web sites dedicated to Protestant bashing.   

Exactly!  There are hundreds of them.  Maybe there are some Catholic ones like that, but I have never heard or seen one.  Like I said, it is a night and day difference.

[ex cathedra]

There seem to be multitudinous protestant web sites dedicated to Catholic bashing in the most nasty and deciptful ways but I don't know of any Catholic web sites dedicated to Protestant bashing.  

Exactly!  There are hundreds of them.  Maybe there are some Catholic ones like that, but I have never heard or seen one.  Like I said, it is a night and day difference.

i wonder why we never see any Roman Catholic sites bash the pope for bashing their Jesus!

Why must us protestants keep this man in check when it should be your Job to do that?

[desertknight]

i wonder why we never see any Roman Catholic sites bash the pope for bashing their Jesus!

Why must us protestants keep this man in check when it should be your Job to do that?

Thanks 'ex'.    Some may have thought we were being unfair in our assessments but your filth comment above will prove in spades the very point we are making.

[farouk]

Let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

[Nevertheless]

Ex cathedra and desertknight, you are both over the line. Dial it down, please.

[desertknight]

pope for bashing their Jesus!

Then according to the rules of this board, this statement must be shown to be provable by reasonable evidence or it is in violation of board rules of conduct.  Calling someone a "fool" is not improper when they clearly demonstrate that they are one.  

[farouk]

Again, let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

That is the central issue.

[desertknight]

Again, let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

That is the central issue.

No, the central issue is that this board has rules of conduct that are designed to prevent bigots from using this forum to make unsubstantiated charges and slanders against the religious beliefs of other Christians.  That anti-Catholic bigots are allowed to make such slanders as I posted from ex cathedra, and that he is not compelled to prove with evidence that they have merit, is exactly the issue we Catholics complain of.

[Nevertheless]

Calling someone a "fool" is not improper when they clearly demonstrate that they are one.  

From the Forum Rules:

1.1  You may discuss another individual's beliefs or religious organization but you will not harass, insult, belittle, threaten, defame or flame the individual

If you would like to discuss this further, please do so by PM.

[farouk]

My polite question is, How can we know what a Christian is, except through the Bible? There is the difference, you see.

Ppl should not get personal about that aspect.

[DCR]

I can say that things improved when the board was reorganized to set up communion/fellowship/denomination/(whatever term you prefer)-specific forums.  There was a time when all these discussion threads were under Theology, and the board became dominated by Catholic-Protestant clashes.

Moderating in those situations was an extreme challenge.  People were banned on both sides of the trenches (when a blue name goes black, as broach alluded to).  To step in and attempt to moderate in a situation like that was to be accused of being a sympathizer of one side versus the other... just generally not a fun situation for anyone.

With that said, even in light of the forum rules which we all need to keep in mind, there is a code of common decency that polite, civilized people abide by.  That goes out the window when endoctrinated prejudice and lack of any attempt at understanding enter the picture.

[desertknight]

My polite question is, How can we know what a Christian is, except through the Bible? There is the difference, you see.

I don't know of what difference you are alluding to.  In the Catholic Church, what we believe is encapsulated by what is required by every faithful Catholic to publicly affirm at every Mass.  It has come down to us through the ages from the Apostles and is thoroughly grounded in Holy Scripture.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God, light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, one in being with the Father, by whom all things were made. Whom for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered, died, and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the Prophets. And in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

That is the definitive statement of Catholic belief.

[Charles Sloan]

 

[farouk]

dk:

Thank-you for the response.

In a friendly way I would draw your attention to 1 Timothy 2.5 which says, 'There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.'

To Hebrews 7.25, which says that the Lord Jesus 'ever liveth to make intercession' for believers.

To First John 2.1: 'If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous'.

To Hebrews 9 and 10 which say that 'Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many'; 'by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified'.

My polite question is, How can we know what a Christian is, except through the Bible? There is the difference, you see.

I don't know of what difference you are alluding to.  In the Catholic Church, what we believe is encapsulated by what is required by every faithful Catholic to publicly affirm at every Mass.  It has come down to us through the ages from the Apostles and is thoroughly grounded in Holy Scripture.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, one in being with the Father, by whom all things were made. Whom for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the Prophets. And in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

That is the definitive statement of Catholic belief.

[desertknight]

In a friendly way I would draw your attention to 1 Timothy 2.5 which says, 'There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.'

And so would any Catholic believe.  Christ is the only source of grace that saves us.  Any others we ask, we ask to intercede and pray for us, be they living or in heaven with our Lord, (The prayers of a righteous man...).  The Nicene Creed above clearly states this.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm

"The doctrine of one Mediator, Christ, in no way excludes the invocation and intercession of saints. All merit indeed comes through Him; but this does not make it unlawful to ask our fellow-creatures, whether here on earth or already in heaven, to help us by their prayers. The same Apostle who insists so strongly on the sole mediatorship of Christ, earnestly begs the prayers of his brethren: "I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God" (Romans 15:30); and he himself prays for them: "I give thanks to my God in every remembrance of you, always in all my prayers making supplication for you all" (Philippians 1:3-4). If the prayers of the brethren on earth do not derogate from the glory and dignity of the Mediator, Christ, neither do the prayers of the saints in heaven."

To First John 2.1: 'If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous'.

Absolutely, but our Lord also empowered His ministers to act in His name....

John 20:22-23 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

To Hebrews 9 and 10 which say that 'Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many'; 'by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified'.

You have to help me out with this one.  I'm not sure what your point, exactly, is here.

[Sardine Can]

[Tantor]

Absolutely, but our Lord also empowered His ministers to act in His name....

John 20:22-23 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

I don't recall Christ breathing on anyone in the history of the RCC.. ever.  

Nor did Jesus mention the original Apostles having successors who were equal to them... all they made were disciples.

[Sardine Can]

Catholic Safe House
No debate, just fellowship for Catholic Christians.

[desertknight]

I don't recall Christ breathing on anyone in the history of the RCC.. ever.  

Nor did Jesus mention the original Apostles having successors who were equal to them... all they made were disciples.

Then I assume that you practice an obscure form of Christianity that does not baptise or celebrate the Lord's Supper as well, for those too were charged by our Lord to His Apostles to perform in His name.  I guess we were just supposed to let that die out with them as well...

[Nevertheless]

Catholic Safe House
No debate, just fellowship for Catholic Christians.

You have a point . . .

[Tantor]

I don't recall Christ breathing on anyone in the history of the RCC.. ever.  

Nor did Jesus mention the original Apostles having successors who were equal to them... all they made were disciples.

Then I assume that you practice an obscure form of Christianity that does not baptise or celebrate the Lord's Supper as well, for those too were charged by our Lord to His Apostles to perform in His name.  I guess we were just supposed to let that die out with them as well...

I believe that yes.. they were to die out.  They were intended for the generation living during Christ and the Apostles time.   Jesus is now the head of his church...

Besides, the Lords supper was to be practiced until he returned and there is ample evidence that he did return in AD70.. (maybe not the way your church or the futurists would want... but it is consistent with the way that Jesus appeared the first time).

But then again, Christians get baptized personally by Jesus with the Holy Spirit and fire... I'll take the scriptures words on that.

It's unfortunate that you and your entire church have been living a lie for so long.

Your faith takes on a whole new dimension when you finally realize that the reality of the situation is that Christ completed everything.. there is no more need for religious trappings.. only proclaimers of the Gospel and those that minister to and help one another.  Just like the 1st century church.. now imagine that!

[desertknight]

I believe that yes.. they were to die out.  They were intended for the generation living during Christ and the Apostles time.

I must have missed in Scripture where that authority was supposed to "die out".

James 5:14-15  "Is any one of you sick? He should call the Presbyters of the Church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven."  

Jesus is now the head of his church...

He has always been the head of His Church, any man that is His "Pope" is simply His regent and represents His authority.

he returned and there is ample evidence that he did return in AD70

You believe He returned again in AD70?

[winsome]

I go away for a couple of hours and the above happens. Sort of makes my point doesn't it (see OP if anyone can't remember what the OP was about).

There was a useful discussion between Catholics going on until ExCathedra's gratuitously inflammatory interventions.

[Tantor]

I believe that yes.. they were to die out.  They were intended for the generation living during Christ and the Apostles time.

I must have missed in Scripture where that authority was supposed to "die out".

James 5:14-15  "Is any one of you sick? He should call the Presbyters of the Church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven."  

Jesus is now the head of his church...

He has always been the head of His Church, any man is simply His regent and represents His authority.

he returned and there is ample evidence that he did return in AD70

You believe He returned again in AD70?

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

And yes, I believe everything in Daniel and Revelation was been fulfilled and are to be interpreted in a Jewish centric manner.  The bible said it was to happen 'soon' and within the 'generation of the then living'... if you do not believe what the Holy Spirit inspired in those two occasions why do you believe the rest of the scriptures?

[desertknight]

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

Actually, Presbyter literally means "elder" in Greek and there is not one single example of them having any authority in the NT except through their ordination by those who were properly ordained by others to do so, i.e., those who's ordination goes back to Apostolic authority.  There is not one single example in Scripture of any Presbyters being indigenously made so by local Christian communities thmeselves.  Please feel free to contradict me with appropriate scriptural reference.

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

1 Tim. 4:14  "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the Prebyteriate.

1 Tim. 5:22  "Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint Presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

In not one single example of the NT, is there any reference to anyone holding proper authority in the Church after the original Apostles, without first having been so given that authority, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands at ordination, by those who are already properly ordained themselves, going back to the original Apostles chosen by Christ.

[winsome]

Again, let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

That is the central issue.

With respect that is not the central issue of this thread.

The central issue is the abuse of Catholics by inflammatory attacks on Catholicism as exemplified by ExCathedras interventions.

[Tantor]

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

Actually, Presbyter literally means "elder" in Greek and there is not one single example of them having any authority in the NT except through their ordination by those who were properly ordained by others to do so, i.e., those who's ordination goes back to Apostolic authority.  There is not one single example in Scripture of any Presbyters being indigenously made so by Christian communities thmeselves.  Please feel free to contradict me with appropriate scriptural reference.

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

1 Tim. 4:14  "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the P1 Tim. 5:22  "Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint Presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

In not one single example of the NT, is there any reference to anyone holding proper authority in the Church after the original Apostles, without first having been so given that authority, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands at ordination, by those who are already properly ordained themselves, going back to the original Apostles chosen by Christ.

None of those verses you quoted mean what you think they mean.. UNLESS you approach them with your man made RCC doctrines first.

The funny thing is that the RCC HAS NO ELDERS....  They have their leadership congealed into one role which is modeled after the Pagan priesthood.

I guess the scriptures weren't sufficient for their institution so they had to adopt and make up names for their positions.

No matter.. I always find it interesting how people cannot see that they are interpreting scripture through the lens of their religious and/or political bias every day.

[desertknight]

None of those verses you quoted mean what you think they mean.. UNLESS you approach them with your man made RCC doctrines first.

Oh, well that should be easy enough for you.  All you have to do is to post one single passage from NT scripture where a Presbyter is so constituted by any local Christian community outside of Apostolic Authority, i.e., just name one Presbyter, or show where one is so named, who was NOT ordained through the laying on of hands by only those who were properly ordained themselves, (Ordination back to an original Apostle.), and you will convince me.  Easy as pie.  Just one.